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i figured she was at least kinda based on guinivere, fated to betray arthur. so i've always expected her arc to be headed toward that betrayal.

 

There are so many different Guinivere stories, though, that it is hard to know which arc Egwene's character might follow.

 

In one version, after Lancelot and Guinivere are found out and Guinivere sentenced to burn for adultry, Lancelot rescues her, killing in the process Gawain's two brothers (one named Gareth). In another, Guinivere betrays Arthur not just sexually, but politically, by taking up with Mordred.

 

So if Egwene betrays Rand by aligning with Moridin, is held captive, and in the process of freeing her Galad and Gareth are killed, and Gawyn driven mad.....

 

Well, I don't know where that leaves us. But I am pretty sure it would be awesome.

 

Perhaps Aran'gar compelled her to believe the seals must remain intact at all costs. Possibly leading her to attack or betray Rand in the process of trying to preserve them. It would be a plausible explanation in the event she did betray Rand in some fashion or another.

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She acts as a spokesperson for the conventional wisdom established over the past 3,000 years.

This is debatable on SO many fronts.I think Lucker's thread of the Aes Sedai perfectly sums up those 3000 years of "wisdom" for starters.

Edited by Zentari

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or if she betrays him against her own will, as a forsaken's puppet. or because of her own will. i was thinking with galad and the whitecloaks somehow, but of course, all just guessery. but i am expecting betrayal, because most of the stories have that in common. in a more general sense than adultery.

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Guest PiotrekS

We have to remember that this story is much different from Arthurian legend in many ways, one of which is women's role - they are active and independent players.

 

So, even if there is a Guinevere parallel, it will look very much different.

 

I sincerely hope that Egwene won't save Rand's life as in the foreshadowings in her tests for the Accepted - if he needs saving, let it be Nynaeve, Min, Aviendha, Elayne, even Bela.

 

Just not Egwene.

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yeah, she could actively and independently betray him.

 

since she's not inactive and dependent, this gives her better opportunities for betrayal than simple adultery.

 

and what else was aran'gar doing all that time? what a wasted opportuity otherwise.

 

but if/when he needs saving, he'll probably need saving from at least. . . 3 people. no?

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Ehhhh, when she first showed up all "You're not leaving without me, nanner," I kinda wanted to put the book down. When she got collared, but held out until Nynaeve rescued her, then snapped like a pit bull at Seta, I wanted to cheer. When she looked at Mat like he was insane when he (very snootily, I'll admit) asked to be thanked for getting her out of the Stone of Tear, I wanted to scream at her. When she discovered her ability to Dream and met the Aiel, I thought she couldn't get any cooler. But then when she flipped on Rand and tried to manipulate him into taking Moiraine's advice and hooking up with Elayne, I was just a little disgusted with her.

 

So this trend of ups and downs with her continued all the way through ToM. Her sudden ability to Accept the Pain and be Totally Wise was so beyond my comprehension that it just made me mad. I mean, I dunno, she never seemed in any real danger throughout TGS until the Seanchan arrived. But then, when the Seanchan arrived, I was blown away by how she kicked ass. Then I was even more impressed when she gave her speech. And on and on it goes.

 

Bottom line, I suppose I'm kind of neutral about her. She just seems to flip-flop between likeable and unlikeable so much that I can never pin her down.

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Guest PiotrekS

yeah, she could actively and independently betray him.

 

Hehe, good point :smile:

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I too hope egwene never saves rand. Infact i would love nothing more than rand hanging off an edge of pit of doom and begging egwene to help him only for her to laugh and kick his hand away. May be then egwene will finally earn the vitriol she so deserves.

 

One final question for Egwene's fans - why exactly did she lie to the Wise Ones and pretend to be an Aes Sedai? What was her goal?

 

who really cares. Every major character made mistakes. She got punished for it. With rhuarc the only one left.

 

Seriously.....

Edited by Elan Tedronai

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I too hope egwene never saves rand. Infact i would love nothing more than rand hanging off an edge of pit of doom and begging egwene to help him only for her to laugh and kick his hand away. May be then egwene will finally earn the vitriol she so deserves.

 

One final question for Egwene's fans - why exactly did she lie to the Wise Ones and pretend to be an Aes Sedai? What was her goal?

 

who really cares. Every major character made mistakes. She got punished for it. With rhuarc the only one left.

 

Seriously.....

 

At least you accept that she deserves it.

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She acts as a spokesperson for the conventional wisdom established over the past 3,000 years.

This is debatable on SO many fronts.I think Lucker's thread of the Aes Sedai perfectly sums up those 3000 years of "wisdom" for starters.

I'm not saying that the conventional wisdom is particularly wise. I'm saying that it's what's conventionally believed wise. The White Tower has had a certain standard way of dealing with things for 3,000 years, and from the perspective of the White Tower, things have worked out pretty well. From a narrative perspective, it's perfectly reasonable that these people would have difficulty giving up their preconceived notions.

 

While Egwene is new to the Tower, she's the poster child for Stockholm Syndrome (honestly, throw her in with the Forsaken for a while and she'd soon be gushing about how much she's learning from Semirhage :rolleyes: ). She's essentially adopted the Tower morality and ethics standards in their entirety, and she acts as a voice for that viewpoint within the narrative.

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She acts as a spokesperson for the conventional wisdom established over the past 3,000 years.

This is debatable on SO many fronts.I think Lucker's thread of the Aes Sedai perfectly sums up those 3000 years of "wisdom" for starters.

I'm not saying that the conventional wisdom is particularly wise. I'm saying that it's what's conventionally believed wise. The White Tower has had a certain standard way of dealing with things for 3,000 years, and from the perspective of the White Tower, things have worked out pretty well. From a narrative perspective, it's perfectly reasonable that these people would have difficulty giving up their preconceived notions.

 

While Egwene is new to the Tower, she's the poster child for Stockholm Syndrome (honestly, throw her in with the Forsaken for a while and she'd soon be gushing about how much she's learning from Semirhage :rolleyes: ). She's essentially adopted the Tower morality and ethics standards in their entirety, and she acts as a voice for that viewpoint within the narrative.

 

Egwene's been forged to become what she needed to be. After she's captured she see's what Elaida's done first hand, and I think that was the final push into making her feel that she needed to become Aes Sedai, to be what Elaida was not. I don't think reforms are completely out of Egwene's head, she seems aware of some of the faults of the WT given her past POVs, but the last battle is approaching and that comes first. But she does seem to believe in the central 'mission' of the WT, so to speak, and certainly some prejudices have affected her in her time with Aes Sedai.

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I was also thinking about the foreshadowing Egwene had about failing to save Rand. I think she will fail somehow, either by her own choice, (Rand is a wool-head, he can´t do that, he is crazy) or by her realizing that she needs to help Rand (unlikely) and it will be too late.

I hope there will be some sort of betrayal... all the good guys can´t be so... good all the time.

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She acts as a spokesperson for the conventional wisdom established over the past 3,000 years.

This is debatable on SO many fronts.I think Lucker's thread of the Aes Sedai perfectly sums up those 3000 years of "wisdom" for starters.

I'm not saying that the conventional wisdom is particularly wise. I'm saying that it's what's conventionally believed wise. The White Tower has had a certain standard way of dealing with things for 3,000 years, and from the perspective of the White Tower, things have worked out pretty well. From a narrative perspective, it's perfectly reasonable that these people would have difficulty giving up their preconceived notions.

 

While Egwene is new to the Tower, she's the poster child for Stockholm Syndrome (honestly, throw her in with the Forsaken for a while and she'd soon be gushing about how much she's learning from Semirhage :rolleyes: ). She's essentially adopted the Tower morality and ethics standards in their entirety, and she acts as a voice for that viewpoint within the narrative.

Conventional wisdom not being wise is kind of contradictionary ,no? Also, things worked out pretty well ? I beg to differ,sir.

The only part I can agree on is the one where she expresses their viewpoint though even that is sometimes off target, so to speak.

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She acts as a spokesperson for the conventional wisdom established over the past 3,000 years.

This is debatable on SO many fronts.I think Lucker's thread of the Aes Sedai perfectly sums up those 3000 years of "wisdom" for starters.

I'm not saying that the conventional wisdom is particularly wise. I'm saying that it's what's conventionally believed wise. The White Tower has had a certain standard way of dealing with things for 3,000 years, and from the perspective of the White Tower, things have worked out pretty well. From a narrative perspective, it's perfectly reasonable that these people would have difficulty giving up their preconceived notions.

 

While Egwene is new to the Tower, she's the poster child for Stockholm Syndrome (honestly, throw her in with the Forsaken for a while and she'd soon be gushing about how much she's learning from Semirhage :rolleyes: ). She's essentially adopted the Tower morality and ethics standards in their entirety, and she acts as a voice for that viewpoint within the narrative.

Conventional wisdom not being wise is kind of contradictionary ,no? Also, things worked out pretty well ? I beg to differ,sir.

The only part I can agree on is the one where she expresses their viewpoint though even that is sometimes off target, so to speak.

 

I don't think that you're getting what I'm saying, at all.

 

-I AM NOT saying that the White Tower has been particularly wise for the past 3,000 years.

-I AM saying that the White Tower THINKS that it's been wise for the past 3,000 years.

 

-I AM NOT saying that things have worked out well for the White Tower over the past 3,000 years.

-I AM saying that the White Tower THINKS that things have worked out pretty well for the past 3,000 years.

 

-I AM NOT saying that what the White Tower conventionally thinks of as wisdom is wise.

-I AM saying that the White Tower THINKS that what it conventionally thinks of as wisdom is wise.

 

-I AM NOT saying that by espousing the conventional beliefs of the White Tower, Egwene is right.

-I AM saying that Egwene is serving an important plot role by being the mouthpiece of what had been the status quo for 3,000 years.

 

 

Finally, regarding the term conventional wisdom, the term doesn't actually imply that something is wise. It merely implies a certain set of beliefs that a population has, and can often be used pejoratively; it implies a reliance on traditional beliefs and unexamined thought over actual research and investigation. For example, in 1950, conventional wisdom had it that smoking was a healthy activity, and had health benefits like promotion of weight loss. In 2011, generally speaking, conventional wisdom on smoking has changed. Conventional wisdom regarding the spread of HIV/AIDS in 1980 differs greatly from conventional wisdom regarding the diseases today. See also, argumentum ad populum.

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I too hope egwene never saves rand. Infact i would love nothing more than rand hanging off an edge of pit of doom and begging egwene to help him only for her to laugh and kick his hand away. May be then egwene will finally earn the vitriol she so deserves.

 

One final question for Egwene's fans - why exactly did she lie to the Wise Ones and pretend to be an Aes Sedai? What was her goal?

 

who really cares. Every major character made mistakes. She got punished for it. With rhuarc the only one left.

 

Seriously.....

 

At least you accept that she deserves it.

 

 

I think you have forgotten the 'maybe then' part

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I was also thinking about the foreshadowing Egwene had about failing to save Rand. I think she will fail somehow, either by her own choice, (Rand is a wool-head, he can´t do that, he is crazy) or by her realizing that she needs to help Rand (unlikely) and it will be too late.

I hope there will be some sort of betrayal... all the good guys can´t be so... good all the time.

 

 

Hoping for a betrayal seems to be the latest thing for the egwene haters. I guess the hopes and dreams of bringing her to heel are dwindling down. what happened to the humbling at the field of merrilor theories?

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I too hope egwene never saves rand. Infact i would love nothing more than rand hanging off an edge of pit of doom and begging egwene to help him only for her to laugh and kick his hand away. May be then egwene will finally earn the vitriol she so deserves.

 

One final question for Egwene's fans - why exactly did she lie to the Wise Ones and pretend to be an Aes Sedai? What was her goal?

 

who really cares. Every major character made mistakes. She got punished for it. With rhuarc the only one left.

 

Seriously.....

 

At least you accept that she deserves it.

 

 

I think you have forgotten the 'maybe then' part

 

 

I know what you meant, I was just giving you a hard time. Your sentence implies she does deserve it and just needs to earn it. More appropriate would have been supposedly deserves. Unless it was a freudian slip.

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There has been many valid points raised for Egwene as far as good and bad goes. All I can say is how I personally feel about her...

Now I can respect Egwene in the fact that she can look at the White Tower be aware of its flaws and yet still maintain a personal vision of how great it could be. She is out to make the tower better than how it was. That being said, she seems to assign the wrong reasons/motives to what ppl do a good bit. Is that fair to the ones that she does that to? No, I don't think so. Sometimes she seems presumptuous. Now I don't think u can say she abandoned Aiel ways, I honestly never thought that myself, I believe someone made the comparison of going to school in Japan for a year, u might adapt to some of their ways to fit in to help u learn, but not become culturally Japanese. Thus the same with the Aiel.

I don't think she means to make thrones grovel and what not, but she expects respect towards her station and her organization. I think that her efforts to connect all female chanelers to the tower is not such a bad move and I also think the reason people call her out on this one is because of the inner monolougue she has where she states that while the Wise Ones and Windfinders think they wont be too intergrated with the tower her thoughts on it r that eventually they will be very firmly entreched in the new structure she is creating. So she is essentialy playing them or u could say scheming or tying strings, ya know being Aes Sedai. She also seems to be suffering from the arrogance factor some Aes Sedai have, after Nyneve's testing she(Nyneve) says straight up that she thinks the White Tower sometimes puts itself ahead of those they are supposed to serve. Egwene never seems to dwell on that fact or acknowledege it as a problem with the women in her awesome tower vision.

What I have a problem with personally is her attitude towards Rand, and sadly it may be a tad bit unjustified(my problem with her). Up till about ToM I thought her attitude concearning him was appropriate. But when they finally came face to face I think she acted contradictory to her thoughts. She realised fairly quickly that she had to think of him as Rand her friend and that he and her hold their positions for a reason. But when he says his plans she immediatley thinks madness, beyond saying that she wants some women to examine his brain she seems to think him insane right out. There is no seeming thought on his ideas, no "hey browns get on this and see what ya think", its just No Rand u cant do this it makes no sense to me and I wont try to figure out why u think this is a good idea. I thinks its funny that she immediately starts scheming against him, picking an opposing stance. Now why my feelings on this may be unjustified is because up to that point ol'Randy's rep is not in very good shape, and it might not be totally unreasonable despite how he was acting to think that he is surely insane.

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I was also thinking about the foreshadowing Egwene had about failing to save Rand. I think she will fail somehow, either by her own choice, (Rand is a wool-head, he can´t do that, he is crazy) or by her realizing that she needs to help Rand (unlikely) and it will be too late.

I hope there will be some sort of betrayal... all the good guys can´t be so... good all the time.

 

 

Hoping for a betrayal seems to be the latest thing for the egwene haters. I guess the hopes and dreams of bringing her to heel are dwindling down. what happened to the humbling at the field of merrilor theories?

I don´t know about hating, Elan, that was your choice of words.

Egwene has had a number of dreams pointing to her failing to save Rand, it´s not a far stretch to say she will betray him somehow. Either by not supporting his idea about the seals, or in her general behaviour as an opposing force to Rand, you could claim that she is betraying/failing him.

Humbling on the field of merrilor I´ve never heard about, nor have I read ToM yet.

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Guest PiotrekS

I too hope egwene never saves rand. Infact i would love nothing more than rand hanging off an edge of pit of doom and begging egwene to help him only for her to laugh and kick his hand away. May be then egwene will finally earn the vitriol she so deserves.

 

One final question for Egwene's fans - why exactly did she lie to the Wise Ones and pretend to be an Aes Sedai? What was her goal?

 

who really cares. Every major character made mistakes. She got punished for it. With rhuarc the only one left.

 

Seriously.....

 

I'm not saying she wasn't punished for it. Neither have I ever said that she needed to be punished, humbled etc. I'd rather she stayed in the White Tower and administered it to all her heart's delight and let Nynaeve and Rand deal with the DO :smile: .

 

I seriously wondered what had been her motivation to lie to the Wise Ones since it didn't help her in anything and she had no reason to believe the Wise Ones would give any privileged treatment to the Aes Sedai (there was no contact with the Aiel after the war).

 

It leaves only personal vanity as a likely motivation. If this motivation -and not just its result - was somehow acknowledged and corrected in the story, then it would do a lot to improve Egwene's character.

 

Egwene's punishment only served to reinforce her image as a person of great strength and sense of honour, who "did what she thought was necessary and paid for it". It would look much different if some attention was given to the fact that the lie was completely unnecessary and served nothing but Egwene's delusions of grandeur.

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I too hope egwene never saves rand. Infact i would love nothing more than rand hanging off an edge of pit of doom and begging egwene to help him only for her to laugh and kick his hand away. May be then egwene will finally earn the vitriol she so deserves.

 

One final question for Egwene's fans - why exactly did she lie to the Wise Ones and pretend to be an Aes Sedai? What was her goal?

 

who really cares. Every major character made mistakes. She got punished for it. With rhuarc the only one left.

 

Seriously.....

 

I'm not saying she wasn't punished for it. Neither have I ever said that she needed to be punished, humbled etc. I'd rather she stayed in the White Tower and administered it to all her heart's delight and let Nynaeve and Rand deal with the DO :smile: .

 

I seriously wondered what had been her motivation to lie to the Wise Ones since it didn't help her in anything and she had no reason to believe the Wise Ones would give any privileged treatment to the Aes Sedai (there was no contact with the Aiel after the war).

 

It leaves only personal vanity as a likely motivation. If this motivation -and not just its result - was somehow acknowledged and corrected in the story, then it would do a lot to improve Egwene's character.

 

Egwene's punishment only served to reinforce her image as a person of great strength and sense of honour, who "did what she thought was necessary and paid for it". It would look much different if some attention was given to the fact that the lie was completely unnecessary and served nothing but Egwene's delusions of grandeur.

 

She had been acting as an Aes Sedai around everyone, and when she first met Amys she had no knowledge on the Aiel. After that she had already told the lie and just kept with it. She probably could have told them first thing without many problems, but at that point she still didn't know them and it's all hindsight. After that she likely feared she'd lose her privilege of learning with them if she told. In addition to that, she was only about 17, right? She's still a youth in many ways.

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So here's the thing:

 

Am I really the only one who never bought the reasons for the Aes Sedai making Egwene Amyrlin?

 

I always thought it was terribly unrealistic and the reasoning behind it felt very much like an unconvincing plot-device. Now people will probably just repeat the reasoning given in the books but do you guys really think that the explanation given is realistic? They made her Amyrlin only cause she knows Rand and should be easy to manipulate being such a young girl? Wow, the Aes Sedai need to improve their plotting skills.

 

 

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So here's the thing:

 

Am I really the only one who never bought the reasons for the Aes Sedai making Egwene Amyrlin?

 

I always thought it was terribly unrealistic and the reasoning behind it felt very much like an unconvincing plot-device. Now people will probably just repeat the reasoning given in the books but do you guys really think that the explanation given is realistic? They made her Amyrlin only cause she knows Rand and should be easy to manipulate being such a young girl? Wow, the Aes Sedai need to improve their plotting skills.

I don't know if it's entirely unbelievable. They wanted a puppet, and they wanted someone 'stupid' enough to be set up as an opposing Amyrlin to take the fall if/when they lost. I don't know that the rebels expected to win so much as make demands for their return.

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Guest PiotrekS

I too hope egwene never saves rand. Infact i would love nothing more than rand hanging off an edge of pit of doom and begging egwene to help him only for her to laugh and kick his hand away. May be then egwene will finally earn the vitriol she so deserves.

 

One final question for Egwene's fans - why exactly did she lie to the Wise Ones and pretend to be an Aes Sedai? What was her goal?

 

who really cares. Every major character made mistakes. She got punished for it. With rhuarc the only one left.

 

Seriously.....

 

I'm not saying she wasn't punished for it. Neither have I ever said that she needed to be punished, humbled etc. I'd rather she stayed in the White Tower and administered it to all her heart's delight and let Nynaeve and Rand deal with the DO :smile: .

 

I seriously wondered what had been her motivation to lie to the Wise Ones since it didn't help her in anything and she had no reason to believe the Wise Ones would give any privileged treatment to the Aes Sedai (there was no contact with the Aiel after the war).

 

It leaves only personal vanity as a likely motivation. If this motivation -and not just its result - was somehow acknowledged and corrected in the story, then it would do a lot to improve Egwene's character.

 

Egwene's punishment only served to reinforce her image as a person of great strength and sense of honour, who "did what she thought was necessary and paid for it". It would look much different if some attention was given to the fact that the lie was completely unnecessary and served nothing but Egwene's delusions of grandeur.

 

She had been acting as an Aes Sedai around everyone, and when she first met Amys she had no knowledge on the Aiel. After that she had already told the lie and just kept with it. She probably could have told them first thing without many problems, but at that point she still didn't know them and it's all hindsight. After that she likely feared she'd lose her privilege of learning with them if she told. In addition to that, she was only about 17, right? She's still a youth in many ways.

 

I have to say that it makes sense when explained in that way.

 

It still is inconsistent that Egwene is sometimes Master Yoda and sometimes, conveniently, just a teenager, but in the case of her lie to the Wise Ones you have made it more understandable for me.

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So here's the thing:

 

Am I really the only one who never bought the reasons for the Aes Sedai making Egwene Amyrlin?

 

I always thought it was terribly unrealistic and the reasoning behind it felt very much like an unconvincing plot-device. Now people will probably just repeat the reasoning given in the books but do you guys really think that the explanation given is realistic? They made her Amyrlin only cause she knows Rand and should be easy to manipulate being such a young girl? Wow, the Aes Sedai need to improve their plotting skills.

No I never bought it either. Especially since the Salidar Aes Sedai never used the fact that Egwene was a friend of the Dragon Reborn in any way after she had become Amyrlin and the Hall forbade her any contact with Rand (not that she tried much to do it).

 

Besides, a third of the Aes Sedai hadn't yet picked a side in this struggle by the time Egwene was chosen for Amyrlin. For any of them seeing the rebels so desperate and unsure of their chances to overthrow Elaida that they resorted to choosing an 18 year old Accepted for their Amyrlin logically should've made much more likely to choose Elaida.

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