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Two Dead Men


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Min POV ToM Chapter 13 - For What Has Been Wrought

 

Min runs through the Dragonwall Gate on the east side of the Stone with a bunch of Aiel. Rand is there, wearing an old brown cloak over his fine black trousers.

The sunlight distorts around him and she has new viewings:

 

An open cavern, gaping like a mouth.

Bloodstained rocks.

Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs.

A pipe with smoke curling from it.

 

 

So who are the dead men?

 

Here are some options:

Rand, Mat, Gawyn, Galad, Perrin, Lan, Thom, Logain, Narishma.....

 

Min is viewing Rand at the time, her viewings always relate to the person she sees.

However, Rand is a wildcard, she could be viewing Moridin, Mat, or Perrin. They all have links to Rand.

Rand could send two men to their deaths; or the death of two men may dramatically effect Rand's outcome.

Maybe that's enough of a connection to Rand for Min to view two men while looking at him.

 

Does the Pipe relate? The only pipe we've seen is the one King Roedran (spelling?) gave to Talmanes.

if one of the men is Talmanes then the other could be Mat.

However, Mat was supposed to be in an outrigger novel, so it can't be him. Unless, RJ was lying when he said he planned on writing more about Mat and Tuon.

Why would he say "This Character will survive the last book." that makes no sense to me.

 

The pipe could just be a sign that Demandred is responsible for the two men's death. Terez has a great theory about Demandred and what the pipe means.

The pipe could also be pointing to Demandred, but not have anything to do with the two men dead on the ground, it could be another viewing all-together.

The Cavern and bloody rocks may or may not be connected either.

 

ranks and ranks of trollocs:

Could two non-channeling men really kill ranks and ranks of trollocs?

Maybe the two men are ashamen - Logain or Narishma?

Are the Trollocs even dead? Two dead men could be surrounded by Ranks and Ranks of living Trolloc.

 

There may not be enough info to figure out who the men are.

Who do you think the men will be? What does your gut tell you?

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Well, it's not clear that the Trollocs are also dead. I read it as they weren't. 'Ranks' suggests standing in rows.

 

The connection with Rand may be that he caused whatever-it-was to happen.

 

Could the 'two dead men' be Slayer, resolving into his separate identities after death? Dunno what Trollocs would have to do with that, though..

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Ooh, I like the Slayer idea. Would be something for RJ to do that. Maybe a viewing of Slayer turning to the good side, betraying the DO and paying the price?

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The viewing has to have some relation to Rand. And by relation I don't mean uncle.

 

Are these separate viewings occurring one after another? or is it one big viewing with multiple details?

 

If it's just one viewing, I'm thinking it's of Rand at Shayol Ghul, dead along with Moridin. Not sure how the smoking pipe fits in. Maybe they were killed by one of Aludra's Dragons?

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We're assuming that SG is the vision locale of the cave and in fact, also assuming that the smoking pipe is in the same place, as the two corpses and the cave?

Loads of people smoke pipes in WoTland = tabac is commonly used everywhere, and nobody rolls cigarettes that we see.

So they all smoke pipes of some description.

Dobraine and his troops were supposed to go to Shayol Ghul with Rand. So it may be two random soldiers.

It could also be a balefire-related "undeath" situation where the blokes who die are resurrected ala Rahvin being BF-ed, resurrecting Mat& Avi.

I don't think we have enough info to do more than guess at what's its about.

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We're assuming that SG is the vision locale of the cave and in fact, also assuming that the smoking pipe is in the same place, as the two corpses and the cave?

Loads of people smoke pipes in WoTland = tabac is commonly used everywhere, and nobody rolls cigarettes that we see.

So they all smoke pipes of some description.

+1 on that. Terez' theory about Talmanes' pipe is an interesting one but it's very thinly sourced at this point. as far as I can tell every single main male character in WoT has a pipe. Rand has a pipe, Mat has a pipe, Perrin has a pipe. Thom has a pipe. Rhuarc and all the Aiel clan chiefs have pipes. So do Lan and Tam and many many others. They all smoke. I guess none of them heard of second hand smoke and cancer.

 

I do find it very curious that in that vision somebody actually took the time to light their pipe. The situation described seems kinda tense and hardly conducive to smoking.

Edited by herid
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demandred and moridin.

 

moridin betrays thinking its the only way to save himself from death when rand falls so he kills demandred quickly and low key. then rand proceeds to die and moridin dies due to their linkage.

 

the main reason I came up with this is that trollocs do not really stand in ranks, if they are/where attacking they would be more of a horde without ranks then an ranked army, meaning they where prepping to move out

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Those visions are separate. The smoking pipe has no bearing to the two dead men, just from the vision. Unless the pipe is actually a sniper rifle, and the trollocs are still living (which would explain how a smoking (recently fired) "pipe" could tie in with two corpses surrounded by many living protectors), but i digress.

 

My thoughts re the two dead men:

 

1. We know they're men. This means they've not been killed by channeling, as min can recognise they're men. It also means the trollocs are probably still in battle, otherwise they'd have dismembered the men or started cooking them

2. We know they aren't both channelers AND surrounded by dead trollocs they've killed themselves, otherwise there would've been a better description than "surrounded by ranks and ranks of trollocs" (maybe "surrounded by ranks and ranks of dismembered trollocs on a scorched ground", for example). Since the use of the word "surrounded" implies the trollocs were hostile to them, it's probably safe to assume they're Light side characters.

 

Who could they be?

 

1. We know who they aren't. They aren't anyone Min has spent time with, as she does not identify the men. This rules out Lan, Logain, Narishma, Naeff, Tam, Ituralde, Bashere, Rand, Mat, Perrin, basically anyone that's spent some time with Rand where Min has been present in the last 9 books.

2. They're not women

 

So by the process of elimination we have to determine who a couple of people are that Min does not know, that aren't Warders, Seanchan (no mention of insectile armour, etc), can't channel and aren't cavalry soldiers.

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I reckon the two dead men are more than likely Hahn and Mop

 

 

Edit: For those who don't know Hahn is Almens nephew in the first chapter of Towers of Midnight, and Mop is the character Mat made up when talking about boots

Edited by The Legacy
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Min POV ToM Chapter 13 - For What Has Been Wrought

 

Min runs through the Dragonwall Gate on the east side of the Stone with a bunch of Aiel. Rand is there, wearing an old brown cloak over his fine black trousers.

The sunlight distorts around him and she has new viewings:

 

An open cavern, gaping like a mouth.

Bloodstained rocks.

Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs.

A pipe with smoke curling from it.

 

 

So who are the dead men?

 

Here are some options:

Rand, Mat, Gawyn, Galad, Perrin, Lan, Thom, Logain, Narishma.....

 

Min is viewing Rand at the time, her viewings always relate to the person she sees.

However, Rand is a wildcard, she could be viewing Moridin, Mat, or Perrin. They all have links to Rand.

Rand could send two men to their deaths; or the death of two men may dramatically effect Rand's outcome.

Maybe that's enough of a connection to Rand for Min to view two men while looking at him.

 

Does the Pipe relate? The only pipe we've seen is the one King Roedran (spelling?) gave to Talmanes.

if one of the men is Talmanes then the other could be Mat.

However, Mat was supposed to be in an outrigger novel, so it can't be him. Unless, RJ was lying when he said he planned on writing more about Mat and Tuon.

Why would he say "This Character will survive the last book." that makes no sense to me.

 

The pipe could just be a sign that Demandred is responsible for the two men's death. Terez has a great theory about Demandred and what the pipe means.

The pipe could also be pointing to Demandred, but not have anything to do with the two men dead on the ground, it could be another viewing all-together.

The Cavern and bloody rocks may or may not be connected either.

 

ranks and ranks of trollocs:

Could two non-channeling men really kill ranks and ranks of trollocs?

Maybe the two men are ashamen - Logain or Narishma?

Are the Trollocs even dead? Two dead men could be surrounded by Ranks and Ranks of living Trolloc.

 

There may not be enough info to figure out who the men are.

Who do you think the men will be? What does your gut tell you?

 

I'm very scaed that one may be my main man Rodel - mainly because of the pipe. I know Min has seen Rodel's face, but its possible his face is obscured in the vision itself.

 

 

- Fish

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Those visions are separate. The smoking pipe has no bearing to the two dead men, just from the vision. Unless the pipe is actually a sniper rifle, and the trollocs are still living (which would explain how a smoking (recently fired) "pipe" could tie in with two corpses surrounded by many living protectors), but i digress.

 

My thoughts re the two dead men:

 

1. We know they're men. This means they've not been killed by channeling, as min can recognise they're men. It also means the trollocs are probably still in battle, otherwise they'd have dismembered the men or started cooking them

2. We know they aren't both channelers AND surrounded by dead trollocs they've killed themselves, otherwise there would've been a better description than "surrounded by ranks and ranks of trollocs" (maybe "surrounded by ranks and ranks of dismembered trollocs on a scorched ground", for example). Since the use of the word "surrounded" implies the trollocs were hostile to them, it's probably safe to assume they're Light side characters.

 

Who could they be?

 

1. We know who they aren't. They aren't anyone Min has spent time with, as she does not identify the men. This rules out Lan, Logain, Narishma, Naeff, Tam, Ituralde, Bashere, Rand, Mat, Perrin, basically anyone that's spent some time with Rand where Min has been present in the last 9 books.

2. They're not women

 

So by the process of elimination we have to determine who a couple of people are that Min does not know, that aren't Warders, Seanchan (no mention of insectile armour, etc), can't channel and aren't cavalry soldiers.

 

1. We don't know they haven't been killed by channeling. Min sees visions (sometimes hard to understand visions) that come true. She doesn't see a photograph of the future.

Remember Min's viewing of Perrin: A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think. That didn't mean there were literally going to be a falcon and a hawk on his shoulder.

She knew he'd be linked to two women, but didn't actually see that they were women, just knew that they were female.

 

2. There is no reason to assume Min should know the men by the vision alone.

I saw you (Rand) and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. - In this vision she knew one man was Rand even though she couldn't see his face.

In the vision we're talking about, she didn't mention seeing any face, just knew they were men. That's very different from saying "Two men she had never met before, surrounded by ranks of trollocs."

Remember she had another viewing of Rand: Three women by a pyre. She didn't say who those three women were, but that doesn't mean they will be three women she has never met.

 

3. There is no reason to assume the vision couldn't mean they were surrounded by ranks and ranks of dead trollocs, living trollocs, or ranks and ranks of Trollocs protecting the men in the middle.

 

 

It could be any two men, or even Isam/Luc.

I'm just curious as to who people think they are.

Edited by DocBean
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Cavern & rocks, those could be the Pit of Doom.

Pipe, could be a literal fulfillment; Rand using one at some time.

 

Two dead men, not entirely sure.

The surrounding could indicate either of these::

-the Trollocs having like a conference with them; which would indicate them being Dark-sided. Moridin was dead. One person of Slayer was also dead; not sure which one.

-the Trollocs killed them; which would indicate them being non-Dark (which is not necessarily the same as Light-sided). Males that have no prophecies left to fulfill could fit that.

Maybe other possibilities.

 

Someone Min knows can actually fulfill an "unknown identity". Berelain & man in White, that is one example; Min knew Galad.

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Here's my take. The visions are related to Rand, and to each other.

 

1. Cave - probably SG. Probably not Graendal's hideout.

2. Blood on rocks - presume Rand's blood spilled on the rocks at SG.

3. Two dead men - Rand and somenone with him, battle casualties. Are the Trollocs in ranks because their "motivator" is gone?

4. The pipe with smoke - it depends on what type of pipe. It could indicate someone relaxing after winning (speculation - Rand in Moridin's body after beating DO, when everyone believes Rand to be dead). It could also be one of Mat's "dragon" cannons.

 

Yeah, #3 and #4 are open to a lot of possibilities...

Edited by stoneface
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Am I the only one who thought immediately of a cannon? To someone who doesnt know what they are, a cannon could easily look like a pipe, and if used recently smoke would be drifting from it.

 

1. We know who they aren't. They aren't anyone Min has spent time with, as she does not identify the men. This rules out Lan, Logain, Narishma, Naeff, Tam, Ituralde, Bashere, Rand, Mat, Perrin, basically anyone that's spent some time with Rand where Min has been present in the last 9 books.

 

Min isnt always able to identify people in the auras. Much like she doesnt always know the meanings of the images, sometimes she wont be able to discern someone beyond being just a shadowy figure. There are many many examples of this throughout the series.

 

In any case, the two people would have to be important to Rand in some way, or at least intergral. She is hardly going to see a couple of random farmers who Rand has never met. Personally, I am thinking of Tam and Abell for no particular reason other then I could definetly see them dying to buy their sons some time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I always thought that the smoking pipe would be a dragon launcher since Min has never seen one and would look like a pipe to her. Also i think the two men are fain and the other being mordeth although one person acting as two. probably wrong though :biggrin:

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I would love it to be Demandred and Rand. It would be an ironic moment. Demandred hating LTT and all.

 

But it is most probably Moridin = one of them.

 

I can see multiple options

 

Rand-Moridin

Rand-Demandred

Moridin-Demandred

Fain-Moridin

Fain-Rand

Lan-Slayer

perrin-slayer

Isam-Luc

Mat-Perrin

Rand-Gawyn (a shout out to Terez :biggrin:)

 

Hell, I dont know, it is too vauge. The pipe could be anyone, but it does seem particularly aimed at Talmanes' pipe, which is the only pipe that is given any actuall detail.

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We're assuming that SG is the vision locale of the cave and in fact, also assuming that the smoking pipe is in the same place, as the two corpses and the cave?

Loads of people smoke pipes in WoTland = tabac is commonly used everywhere, and nobody rolls cigarettes that we see.

So they all smoke pipes of some description.

+1 on that. Terez' theory about Talmanes' pipe is an interesting one but it's very thinly sourced at this point. as far as I can tell every single main male character in WoT has a pipe. Rand has a pipe, Mat has a pipe, Perrin has a pipe. Thom has a pipe. Rhuarc and all the Aiel clan chiefs have pipes. So do Lan and Tam and many many others. They all smoke. I guess none of them heard of second hand smoke and cancer.

 

I do find it very curious that in that vision somebody actually took the time to light their pipe. The situation described seems kinda tense and hardly conducive to smoking.

 

Yea and how many main male characters received a pipe as gift from Demandred, most likely with a finder in it?

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We're assuming that SG is the vision locale of the cave and in fact, also assuming that the smoking pipe is in the same place, as the two corpses and the cave?

Loads of people smoke pipes in WoTland = tabac is commonly used everywhere, and nobody rolls cigarettes that we see.

So they all smoke pipes of some description.

+1 on that. Terez' theory about Talmanes' pipe is an interesting one but it's very thinly sourced at this point. as far as I can tell every single main male character in WoT has a pipe. Rand has a pipe, Mat has a pipe, Perrin has a pipe. Thom has a pipe. Rhuarc and all the Aiel clan chiefs have pipes. So do Lan and Tam and many many others. They all smoke. I guess none of them heard of second hand smoke and cancer.

 

I do find it very curious that in that vision somebody actually took the time to light their pipe. The situation described seems kinda tense and hardly conducive to smoking.

 

Yea and how many main male characters received a pipe as gift from Demandred, most likely with a finder in it?

 

Could have been dozens - maybe he hands out pipe+finders to everyone who he wants to track.

Maybe, none.

 

You're assuming Roedran=Demandred?

You're assuming the pipe has a finder?

You're assuming it's that pipe in Min's Vision?

Three assumptions.

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The first of the two dead men is Moridin. But it is Rands corpse. The second one is Fain. Narishma will kill them both with Callandor.

 

Well that's a new one. How'd you come up with that?

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You're assuming Roedran=Demandred?

You're assuming the pipe has a finder?

You're assuming it's that pipe in Min's Vision?

Three assumptions.

In his defense, the third one seems much less of a leap than the second (the first has it's supporting evidence, so it's more of an inference than an assumption). No other conspicuous pipes out there, even though we did hear of many pipes. Unless there has been no foreshadowing for that Viewing, which is possible.

Edited by yoniy0
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You're assuming Roedran=Demandred?

You're assuming the pipe has a finder?

You're assuming it's that pipe in Min's Vision?

Three assumptions.

In his defense, the third one seems much less of a leap than the second (the first has it's supporting evidence, so it's more of an inference than an assumption). No other conspicuous pipes out there, even though we did hear of many pipes. Unless there has been no foreshadowing for that Viewing, which is possible.

Oh you have some logic behind all three assumptions and it could be right. But it cannot be asserted with high confidence.

When put together, the probability of all three events combined drops, since they're not independent assumptions.

Here's some counter-logic.

Min didn't see a "special", silver pipe - she just saw a smoking pipe, in fact she didn't notice anything else about it.

She might have remarked on a special pipe since she does notice details in her visions.

Min didn't recognise either of the dead men - again, not conclusive but she has met the red-handers

Nor did she remark on them wearing Red Hand uniforms (unusually drab in the WoT context). Again, she may not, but she might.

 

Some further thoughts:

Since the vision was triggered by seeing Rand, it has of course, something to do with him.

If we assume it is located in Shayul Ghul (reasonable from description), then what is Talmanes (or his pipe) doing there?

Rand was intending to take Dobraine and said as much.

So there has to be a big plot twist if the Red Hand goes to SG rather than Rand's Carheiners.

 

BTW, if it is the Red Hand and Talmanes' pipe, there is an easy explanation for why it would be lit on a battlefield. The Band uses cannon and anybody using old-style cannon (or any other old-style dynamite/ gunpowder fireworks or explosives) finds it convenient to have a slow-fire burning somewhere continuously, rather than striking matches / lighting fuses everytime.

 

Speaking from experience, a lit pipe is very convenient for this purpose, since it can stay alight for a long period without being tended to/ unsafe. Your hands are free, prime the cannon, stick a fuse (could be just a cotton string) into the pipe-bowl, inhale to light the fuse, fire cannon, etc. RJ certainly knew enough military history to know this and most Americans I assume, dabble enough in July 4 fireworks, etc. (It may be a Brandon-described scene but I think it would be developed from RJ's notes)

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The first of the two dead men is Moridin. But it is Rands corpse. The second one is Fain. Narishma will kill them both with Callandor.

 

Well that's a new one. How'd you come up with that?

 

Ultimately it boils down to two assumptions on my part. The first, that the Dark One can possess True Power users. The second, that Rand will find this out.

 

/floodgate

 

Thing is, Moridin is so obsessed with the Fisher King and the red on black, I think whatever he THINKS it is leading up to is not going to pan out as he is hoping. In short, I think Moridin thinks the Dark One will possess him and use his body to fight Rand at the end. This, to Moridin, in my head it would be like a Chosen fulfilling its purpose, being used for the very thing they were named Chosen for; a gateway into the Pattern for the Dark One.

 

The Pattern is the prison. That would not mean he was free, it would mean he is in the right place to break free.

 

So Moridin assumes he is the key. I think Rand will figure it out, learn that the Dark One can possess TP users, and he will plan to bring this about in his own engineered situation that the Dark One and Moridin have as little control over as possible.

 

So Rand goes to Shayol Ghul with Narishma, Alivia and Nynaeve only, taking the Seals and Callandor with them. Rand, wearing the Ter'angreal that makes him invisible to Shadowspawn, goes down into the Pit of Doom and breaks the Seals. He begins to draw the True Power, drawing the Dark One into him, forcing himself to be possessed. Now, I have referred to this as Randzamon, the Dark One in Rand, and if you want to mention the "you will be fried" comment from RJ about TP/the Pit, remember what Ishamael looked like as Ba'alzamon? Looked like he had been fried.

 

So Randzamon emerges from the Pit, caverns of fire in his eyes, True Power woven blade of darkness in his hand. The Callandor Crew fight Randzamon, Narishma dancing the blades with him using Callandor, Alivia in control of the weaves and countering the Dark Ones weaves (Rand taught her how before they came).

 

Anyway long story short, Randzamon wounds Narishma, it looks really bad, but suddenly Fain appears out of nowhere, stabs Randzamon, Rand briefly gets control of his body again and allows Narishma to strike him. Alivia times her weave with the strike, severing the connection between the Dark One in Rand and the rest of the Dark One. But as Narishma drives his blade through Rand he got Fain as well, and the thing is, Alivias weave was delivered by Callandor itself-meaning not only was the Dark One not touched by weaves, but Fain was touched with the same thing that dealt with the Dark One, so Fain as a force is dealt with as well.

 

Rands plan though, was that Moridin would not be involved so he could move a hairswidth before Narishmas strike, switching bodies with Moridin at the right time... so Moridin, the Dark One AND Fain all dealt with by a single blow.

 

Rand and Fains corpses, but Moridin and Fains deaths.

Edited by Drekka Mort
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