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yoniy0

Rand and the TP

Did Rand have permission to use the TP  

118 members have voted

  1. 1. How did Rand gain access to he TP?

    • Rand was able to draw on it without the DO's permission in some way (need?)
    • Rand drew on the TP through his link with Moridin, against the DO's/Moridin's intentions
    • The link with Moridin was used as a method of allowing him access, but the DO planned it in advance
    • Rand simply had permission to draw from it, as per the DO's intentions


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So, many words have been said on the subject, and I don't really think we can come up with new ideas; this is just so we know what most of us think. Still, if you think you can contribute something, go right ahead and post it :wink:

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I was torn between options 2 and 3. I'm pretty sure Rand accessed the TP through Moridin, but I couldn't decide whether the DO intended him to. I asked myself, what are the advantages of him having access to the TP out on his own as against him being dragged to SG in chains (well, the dom band) and I decided the DO wouldn't willingly let him get away as he did.

 

In that case, I'm further wondering whether the DO or Moridin actually know Rand now has access..

Of course, I could be completely wrong. There's precious little evidence to go on.

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Guest PiotrekS

I always had a feeling that the whole scene with Semirhage had a taste of DO's nefarious plot. Treating feared Forseken as a worthless pawn, sacrificed without scruples, somehow fits with "ultimate evil guy" personality.

 

I also think that it would be weird if the link with Moridin wasn't somehow involved. But, if there was no DO's planning, why did Rand sense TP only in this one moment? Moridin is supposed to be using TP all the time and Rand felt the connection wih him at least a few times without sensing anything like TP.

 

Brandon also said there would be consequences of Rand's having used the TP. Have we seen them yet? I don't think so.

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I think Rand's link with Moridin provided the DO access to him. So the DO can tempt him with the TP, or take it away, or worse.

 

 

 

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Brandon also said there would be consequences of Rand's having used the TP. Have we seen them yet? I don't think so.

 

I'm pretty sure the use of the TP had an effect on madRand in tGS. It helped quicken his descent, maybe? Also, I assumed the aura of darkness(i think it was this, can't remember exactly) he emmitted during tGS was to do with the TP...

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I had to go with option three.

I am not entirely convinced on it, but it was a choice between 3 and 4.

 

The DO definitely knew what was happening, he planned it. Moridin's play was turning the Dragon Reborn to the Shadow, volentarily.

 

in the Prologue, when Mesanna petitions Moridin to save Semirhage, Moridin says that the DO will decide her fate. Moridin, and the DO, didnt want her to live or escape. Its been foreshadowed with Semirhage saying she wouldnt be sacrificed as a pawn.

 

I hesitated to choose option 4 because from what I remember, and I dont have the books, so I could be wrong, to access the True Power, one must have gone to Shayol Ghul to be "linked" (via the Black Chords, which RJ confirmed to be access to the TP among other possible things)

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

RJ: That was cutting off his protection from the Taint and also cut off his ability, it was not like stilling them. It was cutting the ties that, most important to him, protected him from the Taint on saidin, so he could draw saidin all he wanted to and never worry about the Taint. But it was also those ties that represented his ability, or the conduits by which he could draw on the True Power.

 

However, just as I was reading through the database, I saw this.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords.

 

So it contradicts itself a bit, although i could be misreading the first quote.

 

Curiously, the second quote gives creedance to the first option, or at least the part about Need that you put in brackets.

 

Could the DO have set up the situation where Rand HAD to use the True Power, where the DO got him to accept the TP willingly. COuld it be that Rand's willing use of it gives the DO a hold over him?

 

In any case, I am sure the DO planned this, I do not know if it was through Moridin's link.

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It's either 3 or 4. I'm really not sure which. But I am quite sure that the DO planned it out this way. There is a great foreshadowing of the entire episode in LoC.

 

This is from LoC, Ch 6. Semirhage is ruminating while torturing Cabriana Mecandes and her warder:

 

The Chosen were no more than pieces on the board; they might be Counselors and Spires, but they were still pieces. If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean? Might Shaidar Haran not be sent to deliver covert commands to Graendal or Sammael? Or for that matter, to Demandred or Mesaana? Their uneasy alliance—if it could be called by so strong a name—had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael.

 

If the Great Lord meant to make al’Thor Nae’blis, she herself would kneel to him—and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait. There would always be other patients to amuse her in the meantime. What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheran player, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent’s High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed.

 

To me this makes it clear beyond doubt that Semirhage was deliberately sacrificed in an attempt to turn Rand.

 

But I don't know if the DO gave Rand direct permission. I voted for 3 but it's a real toss-up for me. My vote was mostly based on BS quotes on the subject. They are somewhat confusing but this one is pretty suggestive:

Q: Did Rand directly have the Dark One’s permission to channel the True Power?

A: It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the True Power without the Dark One’s direct permission.

 

It could be that even though the DO planned it out, to actually give Rand permission to access TP Rand would need to be at Shayoul Ghul. On the other hand, Semirhage definitely didn't know anything about Rand-Moridin link and yet she clearly thought that Rand was channeling TP with DO's permission. So it could be 4.

Edited by herid

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Definitely #4 imo.

 

What better way to speed up the process of Darth Rand than to give him access to a highly addictive source of power to save the woman he loves.

 

The Dark One probably wasn't very pleased with Semirhage after the whole fireballing of Rand. Moridin did say this was her last chance to accomplish something. What better way to achieve the DO's wishes, than to let Rand blast her out of existence, making him add yet another woman to the list.

 

Just my thoughts.

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I've always thought it was pretty clear from the description of the scene that Rand drew on the True Power through his link with Moridin. And I always assumed that this was just a spontaneous occurence that happened because of a unique connection between Rand and Moridin that nobody could predict. I don't think it was a specific plan by the Dark One. Plus, he would have no way of being sure (although he could guess based on Semi's personality) that Semi would stop to torture Rand, putting him in the position where using the True Power was necessary, rather than taking him straight to SG like she was ordered to.

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Also keep in mind the contradictory nature of Balefire that prevents the DO from transmigrating those killed with it. Some similar contradictory mechanism could be at work via the connection between Rand/Moridin (trying to contemplate what hitting Balefire with Balefire actually does makes my brain hurt) that makes the DO unaware that the connection even exists.

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3 and 4 sound the same to me each with the DO knowingly allowing Rand access to the TP, the "how" being the focal point. Either way, I think the DO was trying to manipulate Rand into using it and furthering Rands descent into insanity and would allow him to use it no matter what.

Edited by Smittyphi

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Guest mike03

I just assumed that it was a spontaneous action through Moridin. I thought the fact that he was vaguely aware of someone was a reference to Moridin, and I think that it occurred because he was being tortured. Moridin probably felt that pain, and perhaps that caused their connection to become stronger in that instant, which in turn opened the TP to Rand. Personally, I think the Dark One actually wanted Rand to be captured by Semirhage, but she blew it by torturing him and having fun.

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I tend to go with 4 but its just gut feeling. I think the Moridin link is something not really planned. I think the Dark One has always given Rand "access" as it were, in the hopes of tempting him.

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Guest PiotrekS
Brandon also said there would be consequences of Rand's having used the TP. Have we seen them yet? I don't think so.

 

I'm pretty sure the use of the TP had an effect on madRand in tGS. It helped quicken his descent, maybe? Also, I assumed the aura of darkness(i think it was this, can't remember exactly) he emmitted during tGS was to do with the TP...

 

Possibly, but I expected something more serious. Dark aura IMO had more to do with his psychical state, since it changed after the epiphany.

 

I wonder if those consequences aren't the reason why we got almost no Rand's POVs in ToM...

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Option 3, through Moridin's link, with the Dark One's permission.

I don't imagine the True Power being accessed without the Dark One being in the know. As I don't imagine the link between Rand and Moridin being of no importance in the process. So that's whay I pick up option 3. Besides, it seems llike a great plan to me to capture the Light's leader with what is the most tempting thing in the world, once tasted. And Rans has now tasted it. Can't wait to see the aftermath, because if it's like a hard drug, he will have to get some dependencies troubles. How, I don't know, maybe with a need for drawing on it again.

 

Besides, the fact that we have been consistently reminded with how addictive it is during the whole series, it must be affecting Rand. He is no superhuman and he shall abide by the Dark Lord at some point of A Memory of Light, because the Dark One now has a hook on him.

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I say none, because I believe that "The three becoming one" isn't the link through callandor, but rather Saidar, Saidin and the TP. Rand might access through his link to Moridin, but Moridin insinuated special knowledge that has had them linked since the first turn of the wheel. The Importance of the TP is in rand tapping into it during the last battle to go to eleventy. "consequences," isn't always a bad thing. Dating a girl that is extremely flexible has consequences, that doesn't mean they are bad, maybe just rather tiring.

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I say none

Your reflections, while interesting, aren't strictly relevant. Either the DO wanted Rand to draw on the TP or He didn't. Either Rand did it through his link with Moridin or he didn't (which is the case if you disbelieve the link itself). How you answer those two simple yes/no questions should direct you to one of the possible answers above.

 

Dating a girl that is extremely flexible has consequences, that doesn't mean they are bad, maybe just rather tiring.

:smile:

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My guess is the last option. I'm not entirely convinced that Rand and Moridin's strange connection would make them "access keys" to each other. I have a theory on what happened, but it probably doesn't go here.

 

I think the Taint residue that Nynaeve discovered is a possible link to the TP and the Dark One, especially since the One Power residue Rand acquired in VoG seems to block its effects.

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Finally, a good topic! THIS is what makes the WoT so intriguing to me. The DO/Creator contrast and the OP/TP contrast. That yin/yang-ish symbol that RJ uses is a perfect metaphor for pretty much everything in the series.

 

I have not yet decided if was the DO's intentions or not to allow access of the TP to Rand, but I do think he now knows about that access. This is what makes that whole scene so brilliant; the arguments for or against the DO's involvement are all equally acceptable in my mind. Genius writing, and the most brilliant part of the story in recent books IMO.

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i voted 3 but was hesitating between 3 and 4.

 

after rand first used the TP, he could sense it all the time and had to carry to CK to counter the addictive part of the TP. So i think 3 because the DO wanted to turn him and tempt him all the time with the power. the only thing he needed to do was set up a plan where he would be forced to use the TP.

 

and as verin said, the forsaken are predictable and it is not much of a stretch to think that he knew Semi would not come to SG directly and would want revenge and would first torture (what she enjoys the most) rand. so he planned to use her to force rand into that desperate situation.

 

i think the TP makes rand oneness with the land a darker thing, food spoiling etc.

and of course making him even more vulnerable and crazy.

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I voted #4, I think Rand had the DO's blessing to access the TP as part of the turning Rand to the "dark side" plan(unknown to Rand). From what I've read over the series it sounds like the DO and Ishy want The Dragon of his own will, by force if necessary but they continue to manipulate events in order to turn Rand harder and withdrawn from the world. With that in mind and the state of Rands thoughts and emotions at the time accessing the TP was the next logical step to kneeling at SG. I dont think the DO or Ishy would have enough foresight to have seen Rand accessing the TP to circumvent the domination band as well as sacrificing Semi when a lesser BA could have done the part. I may be mistaken...but I think it was just a pleasant surprise and another victory for the dark side...

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A thought has occurred to me. It's been suggested that Rand may use the TP (singly or in combination with saidin and saidar, courtesy of a Callandor-circle) to hold back the DO while he seals the Bore (by whatever means). If so, he'd better hope the DO doesn't know he's got access..

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A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

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Also, I just don't think it's possible that the DO wouldn't know, especially at SG. He HAS to know, considering that Lews Therin said the TP is HIM.

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