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Dark Prophecy


jradkin
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Well I thought there was no guarantee that prophecies will be fulfilled, just a statement of what might happen. In which case, dark prophecies might be fulfilled or they might not.

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Well I thought there was no guarantee that prophecies will be fulfilled, just a statement of what might happen. In which case, dark prophecies might be fulfilled or they might not.

none of the prophecies of foretellings that we've seen thus far have failed. A large number have been fulfilled. There are a few things that we have to take for granted in WoT like infallibility of Min's viewings. There is no proof that none of her viewings will fail yet it's one of the things we accept. same with the prophecies. there are also a number of remarks by RJ and BS supporting the idea.

For example

 

Ty Margheim on Twitter 8 November 2010

Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon

Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.3

Brandon

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting

 

Some kid, to much laughter, asked if Rand was really going to die. Sanderson said sometime to the effect of 'What did the Aelfinn say?' He then said that the prophecies must be fulfilled or the Pattern will break.

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Then why wouldn't the shadow actively try to prevent them from coming true? If the pattern will break otherwise, and the dark prophecies say Perrin will die by their hand, shouldn't they be trying to keep him alive?

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Then why wouldn't the shadow actively try to prevent them from coming true?

most prophecies are hard to understand before they are fulfilled. they certainly tried to prevent some that they were sure of. they also seem to know that the prophecies can't really be stopped. and of course, none but Moridin want to break the pattern.

 

lastly, Avi's visions show that prophecies may be fulfilled in different ways depending on how the future unfolds. The remnant of the remnant of the Aiel surviving in her visions are presumably those in the Seanchan captivity. The actual future will be completely different and this prophecy will be fulfilled differently.

If the pattern will break otherwise, and the dark prophecies say Perrin will die by their hand, shouldn't they be trying to keep him alive?

ha ha, that's a good one. I don't know if the writers considered such twisted logic. but also, as Moridin said he was not completely sure what the prophecy meant. He said that many interpretations are possible. He does seem to know (perhaps from the same big book of Dark prophecies) that Perrin will be essential for Light winning the LB and with him dead there is no chance.

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Totally disregarding your request there :wink:

zeh lo fair

It took me a fair amount of time to get that.

 

To the point, though, I knew "wrong" was the wrong word (:smile:) for what I was going for, just couldn't think of a better one. See, it doesn't make sense for RJ to quote a faulty translation (assuming this whole book is 'translated' into English) in a prophecy, because that's not something any of us could ever have suspected (evidence to the contrary notwithstanding). By the same token, you might say that any part of the books hasn't truly happened the way we think it has, it just looks that way because we read them in English. That's not a game I think he would've played with us.

Now, if you could just apply your logic to the assumption about the Champion of the Light interview quote, then things would make sense.

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Now, if you could just apply your logic to the assumption about the Champion of the Light interview quote, then things would make sense.

ROFLMAO

I said you nearly won me over with that last argument. I'm not completely reformed, but I now consider the opposing opinion (yes, as you know I oppose it as well) only remotely possible.

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Ok, here's my interpretation of this prophesy. I'll quote it first so I can deal with each part separately.

 

"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

The controversial part is the second and third sentences. The simplest explanation for the second sentence seems to me that the Broken Wolf refers to Luc/Isam aka Slayer. It seems to me that it means that Luc/Isam, known by Moridin (who I presume to be responsible for Luc/Isam's unification), shall be consumed by the Dark and be used (and perhaps used up) by the Forsaken. If this is true, then the third sentence can mean simply that this fall to the Dark and the subsequent evil Slayer commits will "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

I see no reason to suppose that the parts of this prophesy must all be sequential or contemporary events. If this prophesy was made during the Trolloc Wars or before, the corruption of Luc/Isam some 20-30 years before the "last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride" may appear contemporary enough to mention it afterwards. The first sentence may be the more important part, and the second and third sentence, explanations for how the "last days of yada yada" will come about. The "Yea, and" phrase may mean simply "Oh yeah, and...." as if what follows is important backstory to how the first part comes about. Don't forget that Lord Luc wore a sword with a wolfhead pommel in the Two Rivers, and it is often remarked by Perrin and the wolves that Slayer is like a wolf in the Dream, but twisted and wrong.

 

This interpretation would also mean that the greater part of this prophesy was fulfilled prior to the ToM. It may be that Moridin was attempting to fulfill the first part, to bring about "the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride" by having Graendal use Slayer to kill him. Unfortunately for the Dark, Perrin's ta'veren nature allowed him to fulfill it by accepting his role as leader and ruler of the Two Rivers. Moridin may or may not have been aware that the second part of the prophesy was already fulfilled. Note also that the last sentence, "And his destruction will bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself," does not say that it will bring fear and sorrow to the hearts and shake the very will of all men. Slayer's acts in the Two Rivers, and in the trolloc attack on the Whitecloaks certainly brought fear and sorrow, and appeared to shake the will of at least Galad.

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Not true-dark prophesy's will be fulfilled too

 

Well yes, but then the Great Lord will win right? I just meant that It has it's own interpretation written into it.

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Not true-dark prophesy's will be fulfilled too

 

Well yes, but then the Great Lord will win right? I just meant that It has it's own interpretation written into it.

No, they don't predict his winning any more than the Light prophecies predict Rand winning. Like Rand said, the best he can hope for is victory and death, but the victory is not guaranteed. The vague wording of the prophecies might lead people to believe otherwise - like the 'darkness so beautiful' line in the TOM prophecy. But that doesn't mean they will win - it just means that there will be darkness for a time. Other prophecies hint at this also, like 'twice dawns the day'. It seems apparent that Rand will die before the Last Battle is won, so that the Shadow will believe it has won for a time (I have won again, Lews Therin) before Rand is resurrected.

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There's a lot of good "meat" in this discussion of the dark prophecy. There are certainly some parts of it that I am ambivalent on--they could mean one thing or something completely separate. They could be a foretelling of what MIGHT be or what IS to be.

 

But as far as the broken wolf who has known Death--wouldn't that apply to any wolf or Wolfbrother who has been to TAR? After all, that is where wolves' spirits go when they die, right? Hopper is the one wolf who has a big role and has known Death intimately--he died for Perrin twice, yet somehow, he still seems to be around. I am not saying that Hopper is part of the prophecy, but there are a number of simple ways that any wolf-related character could be said to be known by Death.

 

I don't mean to oversimplify things, but a personification of death as "Death" with the capital D need not necessarily point to Moridin. In poetry, like in prophecy, death is often made into a figure with a personality and a name. Not discounting the possibiilty that RJ and BS had someone specific in mind. Just thinking simpler.

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I don't mean to oversimplify things, but a personification of death as "Death" with the capital D need not necessarily point to Moridin. In poetry, like in prophecy, death is often made into a figure with a personality and a name. Not discounting the possibiilty that RJ and BS had someone specific in mind. Just thinking simpler.

 

And He has a horse called Binky.. does Bela know? :biggrin:

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But as far as the broken wolf who has known Death--wouldn't that apply to any wolf or Wolfbrother who has been to TAR? After all, that is where wolves' spirits go when they die, right? Hopper is the one wolf who has a big role and has known Death intimately--he died for Perrin twice, yet somehow, he still seems to be around. I am not saying that Hopper is part of the prophecy, but there are a number of simple ways that any wolf-related character could be said to be known by Death.

 

I don't mean to oversimplify things, but a personification of death as "Death" with the capital D need not necessarily point to Moridin. In poetry, like in prophecy, death is often made into a figure with a personality and a name. Not discounting the possibiilty that RJ and BS had someone specific in mind. Just thinking simpler.

That's all true but whoever the Broken Wolf is he must satisfy all the relevant parts of the prophecy. Hopper does satisfy two of them (being a Broken Wolf and "Death has known him") but completely misses on the third one

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." That's not true of Hopper at all and it won't work for a random wolfbrother like Elyas.

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It's not so much an oversimplification as it is a weak connection to Death. In other words, in that context, there's nothing particularly special about having been known by Death. Doesn't seem the kind of thing worth specifying in a prophecy.

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