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Taim and Asmodean


Mandro
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If Graendal was responsible (though the specifics make no sense) for Asmodean's death, then this thought, not theory, fits. Asmodean was weaker than rand before rand forced his talent up, and Taim was weaker than rand soon after asmodean vanished. (Logain is stronger than Taim, I would say quite a bit)

 

Taim was captured in the borderlands and then "freed" at about the time that asmodean was killed, was asmodean tied to the body of taim?

 

In FoH Asmodean was telling rand a story about watching a bird that was choking on a fish, and then in ToM Taim tells a story about watching a bird choking on a fish. Was taim replaced with Asmodean?

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If Graendal was responsible (though the specifics make no sense) for Asmodean's death, then this thought, not theory, fits. Asmodean was weaker than rand before rand forced his talent up, and Taim was weaker than rand soon after asmodean vanished. (Logain is stronger than Taim, I would say quite a bit)

 

Taim was captured in the borderlands and then "freed" at about the time that asmodean was killed, was asmodean tied to the body of taim?

 

In FoH Asmodean was telling rand a story about watching a bird that was choking on a fish, and then in ToM Taim tells a story about watching a bird choking on a fish. Was taim replaced with Asmodean?

 

 

The specifics of Graendal killing Asmodean make a lot of sense, but that's another topic altogether.

 

What do you mean by "Rand forced his talent up" ? Asmodean was the weakest of the Forsaken, but stronger then the typical Randland channler.

Rand is stronger then any other channeler, including all the Forsaken.

I don't think Logain is stronger then Taim, it's possible Taim is actually stronger then Logain, but I think most people say they're about the same.

We know for sure that Taim is very strong, when Rand asked him to hold as much of the Power as he could, Rand seemed impressed that he could hold almost as much as Rand could.

– there was a guide that someone made that had the power levels of a lot of the characters, I don't remember where that is however.

 

The 13 Towers that Egwene dreams about lead us to believe that there are no new Forsaken, if that's what you're asking.

Edited by DocBean
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In FoH Asmodean was telling rand a story about watching a bird that was choking on a fish

Do you mind including a quote (or telling us which chapter it appears in)?

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Aside from all the smaller details, the DO would not bring Asmodean back, at least not without a mindtrap. Look at Moghedian. She got mind trapped and she had less choice than Asmodean in helping the Light-side characters. Then there's Cyndane. She didn't really betray the DO at all, but she still got mind trapped. Taim seems too arrogant to be mind trapped, too arrogant to be Asmodean even. Not to mention he doesn't seem entirely sane, whereas Asmodean seemed relatively stable.

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I believe RJ confirmed that the manner of Asmodean's death prevented the DO from transmigrating him:

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

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In FoH Asmodean was telling rand a story about watching a bird that was choking on a fish

Do you mind including a quote (or telling us which chapter it appears in)?

 

I screwed that up, It was a man who died in the story asmodean told, but it's basically the same tale as Taim told. As for Taim being very strong, perhaps, but He was weaker than rand right after rand had started to really work on his strength in TLoC, and rand had only been training with asmodean for a few months and specifificaly says that he's already much stronger with asmodeans teaching than he was before. So if rand was still growing at the time he recruited taim then in all likeliehood, at the time that rand and Logain fought the trollocs at the manor house, and Logain was just a little weaker than rand, then Logain is stronger than Taim.

 

I will dig around for the quote from asmodean about the man, and taim about the bird choking on two fish.

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I believe RJ confirmed that the manner of Asmodean's death prevented the DO from transmigrating him:

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

 

...and since we know it was Graendal that killed or left him to be killed somewhere, add to that how quickly she thought of the portal stone worlds to flee to where the DO's touch is much weaker at the end of ToM.

Sounds like a pretty good 1 + 1 = 2 case.

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Asmodean is, and I quote, roadkill.

 

[The Path of Daggers book tour 21 November 1998, VA - John Novak reporting]

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I think what Asmo said and what Taim said isn´t comparative at all. Asmo said he saw a man hanging from a cliff and grabbing the last piece of grass he saw. Knowing that it would snap loose and he would fall, rand asked if he helped him and asmo gave a really artistic NO. Taim said something in the manner of watching a bird choke on a fish gives him a double dinner. Maybe he is trying to say: Let Rand and the DO have their battle, I'm digging myself in at the black tower and pick up the scraps with an army of male channelers? Last one is just a thought...

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Sounds like a pretty good 1 + 1 = 2 case.

I honestly don't get it. What are you implying?

 

 

RJ's quote about the DO not being able to bring him back not only because of how he was killed but the where Asmo died as well.

I'm implying that Graendal took him to a remote portal stone world and either killed him there or left him there to die for the same reasons she was going to flee to one.

Edited by Finnssss
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I'm pretty sure the last sentence in Asmodean's POV says that he died just as he recognised the assailant. No time to toss him near a portal stone and take him to an alternate world.

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I'm pretty sure the last sentence in Asmodean's POV says that he died just as he recognised the assailant. No time to toss him near a portal stone and take him to an alternate world.

 

I don't believe he actually died at that moment. I did until RJ made that statement about the where being a factor why the DO couldn't bring him back.

Unless you're willing to believe that dieing in the Caemlyn palace wine cellar is some how shielded by the DO's touch...

 

He had to be taken some where else and his body was not found there.

 

"Death took him" as in his soon to be killer literally took him.

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Yes, well, RJ was asked if there was a wordplay in the phrase "death took him". To the best of my recollection he said no.

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Yes, well, RJ was asked if there was a wordplay in the phrase "death took him". To the best of my recollection he said no.

 

 

Well...then I guess the Caemlyn Palace wine cellar is indeed off limits to the DO :biggrin:

Edited by Finnssss
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Taim is stronger than Logain I believe, Rand is considerably stronger than Logain (Deathgates scene), but only a little stronger than Taim (so little a difference that Rand used his angreal to draw more power). Rand may have gained some strength in the power, although I wonder whether he hadn't already been forced Egwene-style to his maximum potential?

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Yes, well, RJ was asked if there was a wordplay in the phrase "death took him". To the best of my recollection he said no.

 

 

Well...then I guess the Caemlyn Palace wine cellar is indeed off limits to the DO :biggrin:

 

 

Well now we know how the book is going to end. "Everyone pile into the wine celler!"

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If it wasn't for the two quotes by Robert Jordan, I think there would be a lot of support for Taim being Asmodean. Those being he's roadkill and the Dark One could not bring him back because of how and where he died. There is also in Lord of Chaos where the Dark one tells Demandred that Asmodean met the final death for his weakness not because he did not have the power to do it.

 

There are other quotes from Robert Jordan about how the Dark One is not human, therefore does not think like a human nor feel like a human. How the Dark One would not waste one of the Chosen because they are the most powerful and most trained. Think about in Towers of Midnight, how much trouble Grendal is in because she let Aranger (I think) die from Balefire. It is widely assumed Grendal killed Asmodean and he did not die from balefire because where he died would have made no difference. Taim has claimed to be one of the Chosen. Winter's Heart, through one of the renegade Asha'man, if you're courious.

 

What an interesting word 'roadkill' kind of sounds like a body being complete destory like Humty Dumpty.

 

How and where? interesting. Almost like a body has to be in a specific place to be brought back life. Where are all of the killed Chosen awakened? How much a power does the Dark One have over reality in say Shaol Goul? A mind trap can only be installed where?

 

Would a writer of say a huge series give misleading answers only in his books?

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About Taim & Logan, the books up through Gathering Storm do not tell whether one is stronger than the other; nor which one if one is.

 

About Asmodean's death, I would narrow down the cause to either of these::

-Skimming type Gateway

-Balefire

The former seems more likely since he has time enough to say 2 words and since the killer seemed close.

Edited by mb
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I believe RJ confirmed that the manner of Asmodean's death prevented the DO from transmigrating him:

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

 

...and since we know it was Graendal that killed or left him to be killed somewhere, add to that how quickly she thought of the portal stone worlds to flee to where the DO's touch is much weaker at the end of ToM.

Sounds like a pretty good 1 + 1 = 2 case.

Can't wait til I can read ToM and catch whatever else the brilliant people around here missed lol. Granted it still leaves the how, like with balefire and where not mattering, in this case where would be pretty good on its own. So I can take back 1/3 of my omigod stupid retcon reaction in the Asmo thread :)

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I had always though he had been killed in the ways, similar to in a skimming gateway I guess.

 

Isnt it possible for the DO to return a balefired individual assuming the balefire wasn't to strong.

 

Long time reader, first time poster, so hi all.

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I'm listening to Lord of Choas and I just noticed that Taim does not know how to use a sword. Taim says to Rand What good are swords, that he can barely avoid stabbing him and has never felt the lack. Taim is a borderlander where every man is trained to use a sword, and there is that scene in Towers of Midnight where the boy becomes a man by receiving his sword. Taim would have been trained to use a sword before he found out he could channel.

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We have no way to compare Logain and Taim strength wise. Since we have already seen Rand compare himself to Taim, and then had Logain compare himself to Rand... Taim is nearly on par with Rand, Logains comment in KoD made me think the difference in strengths between Rand and Logain was more than enough to be not "perhaps as strong as Rand himself" whereas Taim might have been holding back.

 

No, we cannot be sure of any sort of direct comparison between them. Of course, everyone knows what I think about this by now.

 

I'm listening to Lord of Choas and I just noticed that Taim does not know how to use a sword. Taim says to Rand What good are swords, that he can barely avoid stabbing him and has never felt the lack. Taim is a borderlander where every man is trained to use a sword, and there is that scene in Towers of Midnight where the boy becomes a man by receiving his sword. Taim would have been trained to use a sword before he found out he could channel.

 

Say hello to Moridin for me

Edited by Drekka Mort
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We have no way to compare Logain and Taim strength wise. Since we have already seen Rand compare himself to Taim, and then had Logain compare himself to Rand... Taim is nearly on par with Rand, Logains comment in KoD made me think the difference in strengths between Rand and Logain was more than enough to be not "perhaps as strong as Rand himself" whereas Taim might have been holding back.

 

Rand also wasn't at his full strength yet, Taim was.

I don't believe Rand maxed out until after cleansing Sadin and it was after this that we got the Rand to Logain comparison.

RJ said it takes many years for men and women to max out though normal means. As much as 20 years was mentioned in New Spring.

Forced training like the a'dam, holding their full amount regularily and constant use can speed this process up, possibly getting it down to 2 years or so.

He also said that using angreal and sa'angreal speeds up the process.

 

I believe Rand and Nynaeve were both maxed out after using the Choedan Kal for such an extended time.

 

Also, not all Borderlanders are trained in the sword.

Farmers are not for example, evidenced in tGS prologue.

Edited by Finnssss
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And yet in the same breath Taim has a reason to hold back, Logain didnt. No way to tell.

 

There is a cap on how strong you can be. Let us say Rand achieved this cap by ToM. There will be Forsaken very close behind him on that scale even now. You cannot judge Taims strength based on what he showed Rand, because that would be like trusting his word. Rand hismelf notes that Taim could have been holding back, whereas Logain says outright that he isnt as strong as Rand. One False Dragon has potential reasons to lie, the other doesnt. I would hardly expect Taim to waltz in and show Rand just how much competition he can put up.

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