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gela1212

"The Dark One's Own Luck"

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So, what exactly DOES this phrase mean? I can never tell if its good luck, bad luck, or just ridiculous amount of luck either way. Some examples that kind of confuse me are:

 

In New Spring, Lan mentions that the 2,000 Aiel would 'need the Dark One's own luck' to not defeat the wetlanders. I imagined this was supposed to mean bad luck in this instance.

 

Another, when Mat is doing his epic gambling night in Tar Valon when he kills the two men, he walks into a tavern to play dice. He continuously wins until somebody says "the Dark One's own luck" and Mat goes crazy basically, and storms out. I imagine this has to be good luck.

 

So, thoughts?

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Do not have an exact quote, but I seem to recall some member quoting either Robert Jordan or Sanderson about the phrase.

Do not remember exact thread or the member.

Edited by mb

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What Lan said was this:

Two thousand Aiel were enough to overrun his men and still deal with Emares, unless the Dark One's own luck was with them

By "them" Lan means himself and his men. "The Dark One's own luck" means very good luck. And RJ once said that when people say Mat has the DO's own luck he can get as angry as he wants, but in a way that's true.

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I just read yesterday in LoC ch 14 when the bubble of evil hits Salidar and Moggy spends the night hiding under the bed, not getting hurt and Nynaeve comments on her having the DO's Luck. Maybe the DO can single some people out to alter chance around them. Could his forsaken mark do this? I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is the case

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I just read yesterday in LoC ch 14 when the bubble of evil hits Salidar and Moggy spends the night hiding under the bed, not getting hurt and Nynaeve comments on her having the DO's Luck. Maybe the DO can single some people out to alter chance around them. Could his forsaken mark do this? I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is the case

 

Well "bubbles of evil" aren't really evil at all.

They'd be better off if they were called "bubbles of alignment"

 

The wheel tosses them out to make things go the way they need to.

At that point in the story the Wheel didn't want to take out Moggy, so I don't think luck had anything to do with it.

 

I think Mat's luck is basically the Wheel giving him what he needs, when he needs it.

 

I think "the Dark One's Own Luck" is just a phrase that Randlanders use to describe unnatural luck.

I don't think it's tied to the Dark One at all. It's just unexplainable, so they assume it's related to the Dark One.

Just like the Bubbles of Evil are unexplainable so Moiraine attributes them to the Dark One.

Edited by DocBean

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honest, it's a common english phrase (the devil's own luck, just translated to the dark one for randland purposes), and it does have a reasonable probable origin, which is tied to the devil:

 

"the devil’s own luck -- Unbelievable or amazing good luck; also the devil’s luck. This expression, in use since at least the mid-19th century, may have derived from the former belief that lucky people had consorted with the Devil.

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(i could post a bunch more stuff about the origins of the phrase, and about how it also means very bad luck, but i figure you're all sitting in front of some kind of computers and can search it yourselves if you're interested)

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Or maybe.. it's just a saying?
All sayings have some meaning; which may make them more than "just a saying".

This one I would consider being one of them.

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(i could post a bunch more stuff about the origins of the phrase, and about how it also means very bad luck, but i figure you're all sitting in front of some kind of computers and can search it yourselves if you're interested)

A comp-what?! How can I get me one of those?

Actually, I've never seen that phrase used to describe ill luck. Admittedly, as I keep saying, I'm not a native speaker. In Randland it seems to actually mean something, though, as per RJ's remark regarding Mat's luck.

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As others have noted it means very good luck. Go back to New Spring and it's why the BA where looking for and killing men and boys that were considered very lucky(w/the dark one's own luck) as they might be the Dragon Reborn. This was part of "The Vileness" after the Aiel War.

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It's been commented a few times about myrdraal being unusually lucky. Perhaps the Dark One has his own sort of loose ta'verenism. The push of his desire presuring the weaving...

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'k, more devil's own luck origins, and how it might mean something re mat's luck.

 

from the oxford dictionary of proverbs -

 

 

Cf. the devil looks after his own.

The Devils child the Devils luck.

[1678 J. Ray English Proverbs (ed. 2) 126]

The Dee'ls Bairns have Dee'ls luck. Spoken enviously when ill People prosper.

[1721 J. Kelly Scottish Proverbs 333]

It is an old saying, ‘the Devil's children have the Devil's luck.’ I cannot find‥where the French Fleet are gone to.

[1798 LD. Nelson Letter 20 July (1845) III. 42]

They must have had her hidden up somewhere‥and waited till after sundown to get away. The devil's own luck—but the devil looks after his children.

[1938 R. A. J. Walling Corpse with Grimy Glove vii.]

The Devil's son has the Devil's luck. We're going to need that kind of luck.

[1980 G. Richards Red Kill viii.]

 

the inference appears to be that mat's luck comes from the dark one's favor and/or protection. or perhaps in payment for a deal made with the dark one (just how closely are the finns associated with the dark one? because it seems like there may be more evidence of a deal with those devils than with The devil)

 

please excuse my conjecture and unsupported guessery, i am unable to quote you any quotes because i have a poor memory and poor eyesight. but i seem to recall early on in the series, the boys having dreams of a devil (though, retroactively, not The devil) in which they are physicaly "marked" by the then presumptive devil. marked thus by the devil, their superpowers become superlative (yes,i am aware that there are about 600,000 posts on the subject of when mat's luck turned so spooky, and i am working more on a general feeling of a memory, and i am sure i will be quoted down, but again, this is just a little posing of possibilities and in no way represents an actual Theory).

 

anyway, it seems that mat, in particular, has tended a bit toward the devlish side of life, and has been drawn into dealings with devlish objects, actions and persons on more than one occasion. any or all of which may have consolidated his propensity for a suspicious bending of probability into downright devil granted Luck.

 

i don't know. but you win lotto more than once, and people are gonna think you made a deal with the devil whether you did or not.

 

or, you know, could be one of those dead men in his head or something.

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re the devil's own luck being bad luck from:

 

A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English

 

 

devil’s own luck

. Extremely bad, more gen. extremely good, fortune: C.19–20; coll.

 

i guess this may be from a telephone game like muddying and merging of the original phrase with others, such as, having a devil of a time, stressing the ill luck that is associated with satanism and what have you.

 

again, just a guess.

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So Mat really does have the DO's own luck? somehow that wouldn't surprise me.. but so far, his luck seems to have acted in the Light's favour. He's described as having 'battle luck' (KoD27), but he recognises that it can 'run against you as easily as in your favor'. Hmmmmm............

 

Re being marked: The 'devil' you refer to was Ba'alzamon/Ishamael. He certainly both marked Rand (with a heron brand to the hand)(is that the hand Rand subsequently lost to Semirhage I wonder) and wounded him in the side. He chased Perrin through a maze (TEOTW23), but didn't catch him AFAICS. Mat has also dreamed of him, but we don't know the details. One interesting thing is that Mat was 'marked' in a sense by the Shadar Logoth dagger.. which is of course an opposite evil to the DO. He first discovers his luck some time later (TGH3). See this comment from Encyclopedia WoT:

 

TDR,Ch30 - Mat's luck was always average at best. After Shadar Logoth his luck became very good. After his is Healed, it becomes phenomenal.

 

So.. the luck of the devil, perhaps, but which devil..

 

(If you're trying to pin things down, two very useful tools are Encyclopedia Wot:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

and Ideal Seek:

 

http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/

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Fain has been referred to as having the Dark Ones own luck too. And while thats a phrase that seems to be thrown around alot, Ive always liked the idea that the dagger made Mat even luckier then he originally was.

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Or perhaps, Mat's luck should have manifested itself fully as soon as TEotW, but was restricted by his connection to SL. In that case, it's either a product of his ta'veren nature or indeed a gift from the DO. I can see SL's power rejecting both.

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i meant the "i mark you as mine" dreams, with the ball of fire and the bird beak in the eye. i cannot find a mat equivalent in the "encyclopedia," but i'm not a big fan of pinning things down. i seem to recall mat was evasive about his dream, but it seems that since the other boys admit to having near identical dreams, and are told "i mark you as mine," it is possible that mat had a similar dream. in which he was marked by the devil (yup, i know which one; but i think that when the EotW came out, that devil was supposed to be The devil, in case the book turned out to be a one-off deal).

 

i don't have an actual opinion here, though; i was responding to the posters up above who pointed out that the phrase may have a WOT specific meaning.

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Or perhaps, Mat's luck should have manifested itself fully as soon as TEotW, but was restricted by his connection to SL. In that case, it's either a product of his ta'veren nature or indeed a gift from the DO. I can see SL's power rejecting both.

 

maybe finding the dagger, and living through having the dagger was luckier than it seems? it left the holes in his memory which led to his need to have his mind patched, which led to him being a tremendous battle maven?

 

ok, out of my depth, paddling away. carry on.

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Remember that time that Mat diced with a Darkfriend in Tear? Who then got a broken back because Mat's luck beat his. Well, Mat's luck isn't the Dark one's own luck, his is better, because that man truly had the Dark One's luck... and he lost and got a broken back in the same scene.

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maybe the dark one wasn't fond of that particular darkfriend? i don't think darkfriends necessarily would have, or be though to have, the dark one's own luck. they seem to be a dime a dozen for the most part.

 

and maybe jordancon transcripts aren't the best source, but if RJ really did say : "When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true," he must have meant something by it?

Edited by cindy

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