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Discuss the Inclusion of a Gay Character


Luckers
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So that's what I asked. "Why do you care?"

 

because they are making it a big deal. If the book just would have been written as planned and this character's sexuality came out in the plot of the book then, big deal. The way it seemed is that they are changing stuff. As i said in my post that if this was how the character was thought of from the start then i dont care at all. if this had not been announced then when we get AMoL people would have been like "O WHERE DID THIS GAY GUY COME FROM" i don't know why they would yell but... and Brandon would say that was always how it was planned end of story. and i would have been fine with it just like dumbledore. that's why i care i wish people would write their stories as planned and if this is as planned GREAT

 

No, Brandon is not making a big deal. Have you read the thread? Do you know how this thread came to be?

(1) Terez, Luckers, and I were having a conversation on Twitter with Brandon about various aspects of sexuality in the Wheel of Time.

(2) In response to a question, and in the context of that discussion, Brandon let slip that he had written a gay character for Towers of Midnight, but had moved that scene to A Memory of Light.

(3) Based on that revelation, this thread was made to discuss that inclusion.

 

This is not pandering. He's not publicizing it. He let it slip (yes, publicly, but not as a press release) to a couple of fans that he was having a discussion with, to which it was relevant.

 

The book IS being written as planned. He has notes, but there are a lot of things he has to do to bridge gaps in those notes, and there's a lot of details he has to add in order to make the book fully-fleshed. That's why this is a labor that takes over a year. Because he's not filling in a couple of holes in a completed outline, he's taking notes and comments and forging them into a book. You can't "change something" in that unless you're expressly going against the notes themselves. He is not (because Harriet would not allow it). Perhaps RJ would not have written it this way, but based on what he's said of the world, it's possible that he would.

 

Fine, you're not a homophobe. I still think you're putting too much importance on sexuality, in the overall scheme of the book, and you're completely misinterpreting the context for this revelation.

 

EDIT: REALLY look at that chronology. Brandon had originally planned to put that in Towers of Midnight. It got moved to AMOL for space. The conversation happened WELL after the release of TOM. That scene very well could have come out exactly like you said.

 

If anything, what you're saying is, "I'm really mad at Brandon for having a discussion with fans and casually mentioning something that is going to happen in the next book."

you obviously are not understanding what i am saying, i'm not going to try and say it again. It seems you want me to be saying something i am not but I've given my thoughts on the matter, and that is NOT what i was saying

 

I'm sorry, it looked like it was. Your post was rather unclear. If you'd take some time and clarify it, I'd be happy to respond to whatever your point actually is.

 

What you seemed to be saying was that Brandon's making a big deal out of this by letting us all know in advance, and this seems to be different from RJ's plan. You said that if it came about organically, that would be fine, but you don't like that he announced it.

 

That's the post I responded to, because it's in keeping with RJ's plan, he's not making a big deal about this, it will come up organically, and he didn't "announce" it.

 

EDIT: If that's not what you're saying, you were REALLY unclear, because I can't see ANYTHING else. And my job is to be able to read and understand the meaning of a passage of text, and to respond to it.

Edited by Seth Baker
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What were you saying?

because they are making it a big deal. If the book just would have been written as planned and this character's sexuality came out in the plot of the book then, big deal.

It was going to be ToM, but now it's AMoL.

The way it seemed is that they are changing stuff.

RJ and Brandon both disagree. As quoted.

As i said in my post that if this was how the character was thought of from the start then i dont care at all. if this had not been announced then when we get AMoL people would have been like "O WHERE DID THIS GAY GUY COME FROM" i don't know why they would yell but... and Brandon would say that was always how it was planned end of story. and i would have been fine with it just like dumbledore. that's why i care i wish people would write their stories as planned and if this is as planned GREAT

It comes from us being more exposed to ash'man. It's a cause & effect of the story. Nothing odd about that.

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I'm sorry, it looked like it was. Your post was rather unclear. If you'd take some time and clarify it, I'd be happy to respond to whatever your point actually is.

 

What you seemed to be saying was that Brandon's making a big deal out of this by letting us all know in advance, and this seems to be different from RJ's plan. You said that if it came about organically, that would be fine, but you don't like that he announced it.

 

That's the post I responded to, because it's in keeping with RJ's plan, he's not making a big deal about this, it will come up organically, and he didn't "announce" it.

then i was wrong about how it came to be known. But it still changes noting about my argument. If this is how it was planned (which people say that is was) then awesome i have not problems. I said i had a problem if it was changed. Which yall say it was not so no big deal like i said in all of my posts.

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pander 3) v. catering to special interests without any principles, such as a politician who says to whatever group he/she is addressing just what they want to hear to win their support, contributions, or favors.

 

publicize –verb (used with object), -cized, -ciz•ing. to give publicity to; bring to public notice; advertise: They publicized the meeting as best they could.

 

split hairs - to argue about whether details that are not important are exactly correct

 

Hypocrite - person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess.

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I'm sorry, it looked like it was. Your post was rather unclear. If you'd take some time and clarify it, I'd be happy to respond to whatever your point actually is.

 

What you seemed to be saying was that Brandon's making a big deal out of this by letting us all know in advance, and this seems to be different from RJ's plan. You said that if it came about organically, that would be fine, but you don't like that he announced it.

 

That's the post I responded to, because it's in keeping with RJ's plan, he's not making a big deal about this, it will come up organically, and he didn't "announce" it.

then i was wrong about how it came to be known. But it still changes noting about my argument. If this is how it was planned (which people say that is was) then awesome i have not problems. I said i had a problem if it was changed. Which yall say it was not so no big deal like i said in all of my posts.

 

 

 

 

*Pissst* jwillis Ask them to provide the exact quote where RJ said it was going to be IN the book, no really it's fun!

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RJ's blog 6 October 2005 "AND ONE MORE TIME"

 

 

I have gay and Lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.

So, if it had a reason to come into the open, then it would. Yeah, fun!

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Some peoples posts went bye bye.

 

Love heated conversation, but the implication that someone is homophobic just for opposing this is out. So is disparaging people for holding an opinion, for example telling someone to 'stop bitching'.

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pander 3) v. catering to special interests without any principles, such as a politician who says to whatever group he/she is addressing just what they want to hear to win their support, contributions, or favors.

 

publicize –verb (used with object), -cized, -ciz•ing. to give publicity to; bring to public notice; advertise: They publicized the meeting as best they could.

 

split hairs - to argue about whether details that are not important are exactly correct

 

Hypocrite - person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess.

 

And yet Brandon said clearly that he's basing his decision on principle, so by the definition that YOU provide, it is CLEARLY not pandering.

 

[removed by Luckers]

 

jwillis - okay, so your problem is "the plan." That's your misconception. There was no plan. There were a collection of notes that cannot by themselves make the story. Just stitching them together with as little narrative as possible would not work with the rest of the Wheel of Time.

 

In the end, it's Brandon and Harriet's choice. They're clearly not pandering. They're also clearly not trying to increase sales by this tactic, since it's going to alienate EVERY bigot out there, but probably won't attract that many homosexuals to the series.

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jwillis - okay, so your problem is "the plan." That's your misconception. There was no plan. There were a collection of notes that cannot by themselves make the story. Just stitching them together with as little narrative as possible would not work with the rest of the Wheel of Time.

 

Are you reading my posts at all??? IF THAT IS THE PLAN I HAVE NO PROBLEM. i said in my last post that i was unclear on how the info came out. What do want from me.

 

o and this is not Talkien's son putting notes together. there is for sure a plan, yes there are parts missing but the main story is there just maybe not the details

Edited by jwillis7
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jwillis - okay, so your problem is "the plan." That's your misconception. There was no plan. There were a collection of notes that cannot by themselves make the story. Just stitching them together with as little narrative as possible would not work with the rest of the Wheel of Time.

 

Are you reading my posts at all??? IF THAT IS THE PLAN I HAVE NO PROBLEM. i said in my last post that i was unclear on how the info came out. What do want from me.

 

o and this is not Talkien's son putting notes together. there is for sure a plan, yes there are parts missing but the main story is there just maybe not the details

 

Yes, I'm reading them, you're just either not reading mine, or you're very unclear in your own. This was not RJ's original plan. But he left notes, it fits, and Brandon wants to put it in, so it's also not CHANGING the plan.

 

You said, "this is fine if it's part of the original plan." It's not. Yet it's also not against the original plan. It's not changing anything. It's adding it at a point where there was no plan. In light of that, do you understand why your discussion of "accepting it if it's part of the plan" would look like you saying that you won't accept it, from my perspective?

 

The narrative is there. This is not the Silmarillion. But the details are missing, like you said. And this is one of those details. So how would this be against the plan?

Edited by Seth Baker
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I'm sorry, it looked like it was. Your post was rather unclear. If you'd take some time and clarify it, I'd be happy to respond to whatever your point actually is.

 

What you seemed to be saying was that Brandon's making a big deal out of this by letting us all know in advance, and this seems to be different from RJ's plan. You said that if it came about organically, that would be fine, but you don't like that he announced it.

 

That's the post I responded to, because it's in keeping with RJ's plan, he's not making a big deal about this, it will come up organically, and he didn't "announce" it.

then i was wrong about how it came to be known. But it still changes noting about my argument. If this is how it was planned (which people say that is was) then awesome i have not problems. I said i had a problem if it was changed. Which yall say it was not so no big deal like i said in all of my posts.

 

 

 

 

*Pissst* jwillis Ask them to provide the exact quote where RJ said it was going to be IN the book, no really it's fun!

 

To what end? One quote has been provided showing they exist and the overwhelming evidence is that RJ would have had zero problem with the inclusion. Harriet has already approved said inclusion and wouldn't betray RJ's wishes. It was written for ToM with ZERO announcement whatsoever. It is BS job to flesh out world details and decide how to finish the series, the people accusing him and Team Jordan of some plot to pander and increase sales make me sick. You are just being a straight up troll with posts like the one above.

Edited by Suttree
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The last book is soon in our hands and you care about the gay-thing? :P

 

No, but I think this gay-man-in-WoT-thing has been a little blown up. I don't even know why it was announced, BS could have it in the book without mentioning anything about it and everything would be ok. We would probably read it as we did with the pillowfriends-thing.

 

For me; there has always been homosexual guys in WoT. Everybody here talks about realism. I don't think you make a world realistic by including everything in our world. You do not need to have every kind of sexual included in the book for it to be real. Then it would feel very... "plastic"...

Realism in fiction is a feeling that a world is real, and thus for me, there has always been gays in WoT.

 

Now why we haven't seen them; well, isn't that obvious? Men will be men and women always women. Which means, this kind of thing isn't something men care for or talk about; and very uncomfortable speeking about sexuality and those kind of things. Today it isn't much like that, but in Randland with those cultures; and those naive minds of the young men we have followed, who seems to not know very much about sexuality. It's kinda easy to realise that menin Randland don't talk about these things, and the gays don't mention it to anyone or want to be revealed. They still want their status as those men.

 

I have always seen it like this, becuase RJ made his world so real. I understood things that weren't on screen because of the other details.

 

Anways; stop making this a big deal. If you never heard of it before you read it, you wouldn't care like this.

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Aight. I'm locking this thread for a day. Tomorrow you can come back to it, and hopefully be more cool--though i warn you a single report to mod will see it locked for good.

 

 

 

 

 

Unlocked. Play nice.

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Lots of all caps up there. Are posters channeling the GLoD?

BTW, popular culture does suggest that open M-M relationships pushes more emotional buttons among population at large than open F-F relationships.

Look at the number of female sportspersons/ entertainers/ celebs / politicians who are out-of-the-closet lesbian versus the far smaller number of men ditto.

Why is that you reckon?

Edited by Sharaman
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BTW, popular culture does suggest that open M-M relationships pushes more emotional buttons among population at large than open F-F relationships.

Look at the number of female sportspersons/ entertainers/ celebs / politicians who are out-of-the-closet lesbian versus the far smaller number of men ditto.

Why is that you reckon?

Because the F-F is not really about gay females, they're just entertaining the men. Whilst M-M is dangerous, contagious and evil.

 

(That's irony, just so you know. I can joke about this, right? I hope so...)

Edited by Nightstrike
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Lots of all caps up there. Are posters channeling the GLoD?

BTW, popular culture does suggest that open M-M relationships pushes more emotional buttons among population at large than open F-F relationships.

Look at the number of female sportspersons/ entertainers/ celebs / politicians who are out-of-the-closet lesbian versus the far smaller number of men ditto.

Why is that you reckon?

 

if i may, i would say this is mostly due to the fact that a lot of people are more accepting of F-F than of M-M even if they are not homophobic.

and it also may stem for the fact that a lot of straight people find FF attractive and MM is not. also for a male celebrity to come out as gay might ruin his career. but a lot of people did it.

 

at the end of day, it comes down to values you have and how open and accepting one is. that is what i think.

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He did not say that they "were not part of the story". Wherever did you get that idea?

 

(He said that the male gay characters hadn't come into the open. But that was valid up to the point of published books when he said what he said. What he really said means that if there had been reason for it to come into the open, then it would. Harriet has no problems with it, apparently, and she knew the man.)

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The entire quote reads:

RJ's blog 6 October 2005 "AND ONE MORE TIME"

 

 

I have gay and Lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.

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The entire quote reads:

RJ's blog 6 October 2005 "AND ONE MORE TIME"

 

 

I have gay and Lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai [b[u]]because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi.[/b] [/u] For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.

 

 

Thanks for the whole quote that was very polite of you allow me to help point out the flaw to your reading of it.

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No flaw in my reading of it. You just choose to ignore the first part of it. There will be a reason for it to come into the open. We will probably be in the heads of men. Most likely asha'man.

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The entire quote reads:

RJ's blog 6 October 2005 "AND ONE MORE TIME"

 

 

I have gay and Lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai [b[u]]because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi.[/b] [/u] For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.

 

 

Thanks for the whole quote that was very polite of you allow me to help point out the flaw to your reading of it.

 

And now we're going to be in the head of a character who is gay or bi. See, RJ didn't say, "I'm never going to go into the head of such a character," just that he hadn't done it yet.

 

Now that it's going to happen, what exactly is your point?

Edited by Seth Baker
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Could we please knock it off the the massive font? It's really incredibly childish. The problem isn't that people can't read or understand the Jordan quote. It is that they disagree on how to interpret it.

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WOW! I mean this is really about as funny as it can get. There is no proof that RJ wanted this in the book. That’s a fact. There is no quote to support it again a fact. Your quote here proves that he had no intention as everyone knows when RJ wrote his characters ‘he got inside their heads.’ Something you can find various quotes on and stories told of how Harriet could know who he was writing for that day. So you really have two options here. Either accept that this is all BS or ignore every other fact on the table. That my friend is the point I really don’t care if BS wishes to put it into his books but this really isn’t his book is it. He really is just an over glorified editor at this point and shouldn't be trying to make a name for himself.

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There is proof that RJ had no objections to it ever happening. He hadn't written these 3 books when he passed. There's no reason not to include it - if we're about to spend more time in asha'man's heads. That's what RJ's blog-post makes clear.

 

Harriet knew the man.

Edited by Nightstrike
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