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Luckers

Who Shall Serve Her and Die, Yet Serve Still?

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Ok, so presuming the Dark Prophecy was real, not a bit of hocus pocus written by someone with a little knowledge and a bit of wit [as Verin says], there here is something interesting.

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

Now if this is a foretelling--which is very much what it sounds like (as opposed to say, a dream) then it should be immutable. And within the sentence 'who shall serve her and die, yet serve still' there is the implicit expectation that someone will do that--it is not 'will someone serve her and die, yet serve still', but 'who' shall do so. There will be someone we just don't know who.

 

Yet there was no one. No one served her, no one died, and no one continued to serve her. So, this prophecy seemingly stands unfulfilled--at least in part. Lanfear did walk again, after all... only what if that, too, was not fulfilled?

 

Consider--as Cyndane, the Daughter of Night walks again. And we know that despite her seeming victimisation in Rand's dream at the end of Towers of Midnight, she still seeks to fight the ancient war. For instance we have Shaidar Haren's implication to Graendal that Cyndane is acting.

 

“I have a better plan, more bold. You will be impressed. Al’Thor thinks I am dead, and so I can--”

 

“No.” Such a quiet voice, but so horrible. Graendal found she could not speak. Something had taken her voice. “No,” Shaidar Haran continued. “This opportunity has been given to another. But Graendal, you shall not be forgotten.”

 

Or, more directly, from WH; 35, With the Choedan Kal...

 

[Cyndane] prayed to the Great Lord that she would reach Lews Therin first. She wanted to see him die, she realized, and for that, she would have to get closer.

 

 

That last quote is curious in and of itself--Cyndane realising that she wanted Rand to die. Before that she hadn't been seeking his death--yet the prophecy states that as a result of her seeking her new lover he would serve her and die. In many ways it is only after that realisation that Cyndane was in a position to take Rand.

 

So, the Daughter of the Night walks again as Cyndane. As of the ToM epilogue she is seeking her old lover--whom is newly enlightened and filled with an almost icky degree of love to be shared around. A man, whom, lets not forget, is destined to die and live again sometime in the very near future.

 

So, my question is this--how shall he serve her--before and after his death? More curiously--who shall stand against her coming, and how will this involve the Shinning Walls kneeling?

 

 

Addendum. Egwene as a dreamer would fit perfectly with this, and it suits the role she took upon herself in tGH. Trying to protect him in the Dream. But most interestingly--if the Shinning Walls can be said to have knelt to anyone, its Egwene.

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Consider--as Cyndane, the Daughter of Night walks again. And we know that despite her seeming victimisation in Rand's dream at the end of Towers of Midnight, she still seeks to fight the ancient war. For instance we have Shaidar Haren's implication to Graendal that Cyndane is acting.
“I have a better plan, more bold. You will be impressed. Al’Thor thinks I am dead, and so I can--”

 

“No.” Such a quiet voice, but so horrible. Graendal found she could not speak. Something had taken her voice. “No,” Shaidar Haran continued. “This opportunity has been given to another. But Graendal, you shall not be forgotten.”

Everyone assumes that refers to Cyndane, but IMO it more likely refers to Demandred.

 

That last quote is curious in and of itself--Cyndane realising that she wanted Rand to die. Before that she hadn't been seeking his death...

She made that decision on the docks of Cairhien:

 

"Your name is Lanfear, and I'll die before I love one of the Forsaken."

 

Something that might have been anguish crossed her face; then it was a marble mask once more. "If you are not mine," she said coldly, "then you are dead."

 

Agony in his chest, as if his heart was about to explode, in his head, white-hot nails driving into his brain, pain so strong that inside the Void he wanted to scream. Death was there, and he knew it.

And there is nothing to indicate that she ever changed her mind. She was eager to kill him earlier in WH:

 

"Killed?" Moridin moved his hands as though weighing something. "If it comes to that, yes," he said finally. "But finding him is no problem. When he touches the Choedan Kal, you will know where he is. And you will go there and take him. Or kill him, if necessary. The Nae'blis has spoken."

 

"As the Nae'blis commands," Cyndane said eagerly, bowing her head, and echos of her ran around the room, though Aran'gar sounded sullen, Osan'gar desperate, and Graendal oddly thoughtful.

 

So, my question is this--how shall he serve her--before and after his death? More curiously--who shall stand against her coming, and how will this involve the Shinning Walls kneeling?

The only way it really makes sense to me is if she is going to turn to the Light somehow. I've thought about it a lot, but nothing really clear comes to mind yet. RJ referred to it as a prophecy, which would seem to confirm it actually is a prophecy:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 10 Question: In The Great Hunt, who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the dungeon wall in Fal Dara?

Robert Jordan Answers: A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.

Edited by Terez

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Ok, she realises she wants him dead earlier than I realised. Also, cool catch on the prophecy citation. I disagree about it being Demandred.

 

The only way it really makes sense to me is if she is going to turn to the Light somehow. I've thought about it a lot, but nothing really clear comes to mind yet. RJ referred to it as a prophecy, which would seem to confirm it actually is a prophecy:

 

I'm not sure I understand this--why does it make sense if she turns to the light--why doesn't it make sense if she doesn't. I mean, ok--she manipulates Rand by playing the victim, and somehow leads him off the beaten track--why would this not make sense. The prophecy itself purports that someone will stand in her way. I'm thinking Egwene due to the foreshadowing in tGH and tDR, but irrespective all that it needs is that someone stop her.

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Ok, she realises she wants him dead earlier than I realised. Also, cool catch on the prophecy citation. I disagree about it being Demandred.

 

The only way it really makes sense to me is if she is going to turn to the Light somehow. I've thought about it a lot, but nothing really clear comes to mind yet. RJ referred to it as a prophecy, which would seem to confirm it actually is a prophecy:

 

I'm not sure I understand this--why does it make sense if she turns to the light--why doesn't it make sense if she doesn't. I mean, ok--she manipulates Rand by playing the victim, and somehow leads him off the beaten track--why would this not make sense. The prophecy itself purports that someone will stand in her way. I'm thinking Egwene due to the foreshadowing in tGH and tDR, but irrespective all that it needs is that someone stop her.

If Rand really is going to serve her, not only before his death but after, then she has to have good intentions, right? If she has evil intentions, then I can see Rand accidentally serving her before death, but not so much after. In other words, I can see the 'before' part being fulfilled while she is still evil, but it's hard to imagine a scenario in which he might serve her after his death. Also, I interpret 'who shall against her coming' to be more of a declaration of her great power. You must not have gone to church much as a kid. :biggrin: This sort of language is used all the time in the Bible.

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If Rand really is going to serve her, not only before his death but after, then she has to have good intentions, right? If she has evil intentions, then I can see Rand accidentally serving her before death, but not so much after. In other words, I can see the 'before' part being fulfilled while she is still evil, but it's hard to imagine a scenario in which he might serve her after his death

 

That presumes that her manipulations and deceptions are revealed when he dies, which isn't necessary. She could completely fool him. It'd certainly pay off 'Jesus Rand'.

 

Also, I interpret 'who shall against her coming' to be more of a declaration of her great power. You must not have gone to church much as a kid. This sort of language is used all the time in the Bible.

 

Cathloic school for 13 years, and then a major in comparative religion. :) Also, again, pay off for 'Jesus Rand'.

 

No, I do get your idea, but I enjoy the play of it.

 

Lanfear: Who shall stand against my coming? MUAHAHAHA.

Egwene: Yo. *balefire*

 

Similarily, I enjoy the connection of the Shinning Walls kneeling, and the question of who shall stand against her coming. It sounds very much like Lanfear's gonna kick serious booty, that no one will oppose her, and that the Shinning Walls shall kneel to her--but it doesn't actually say that. Someone could oppose her, and it may well be, based on sentence structure, that it is her opposite to which the Shinning Walls kneel.

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Cathloic school for 13 years, and then a major in comparative religion. :)

Boys' school? :biggrin: And everyone knows that Catholics don't actually read the Bible!

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Every thread I post in about the dark prophesy inevitably dies. Lanfear passages...if only the tenses were a little different, then it'd be easy to point to things they could be.

 

Sure there's nothing hiding in plain sight in the Blood calls blood refrain?

 

Shining Walls have also knelt to Dark One and Rand :ohmy:

Edited by Cybertrolloc

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Dark Prophecy I guess would have like a "twisted" fulfillment.

 

Parts backed up by Light-sided prophecy; those becoming fulfilled.

Parts contradicted by Light-sided prophecy; I would guess "opposite" fulfillment.

The rest, I would guess a chance of either.

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I believe that particular bit of prophecy was contingent in nature. She came seeking Rand, to do something that would cause him to die, yet serve her still. Moiraine indicated that certain paths might have happened in her letter, one of which was Rand serving Lanfear and calling himself Lews Therin. Sounds and awful lot like dying and yet serving her still, since Rand and LT are effectively the same person.

 

Who stood against her coming? Moiraine. The conditions for that prophesied path to be averted were fulfilled by her interference with Lanfear.

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Dark Prophecy I guess would have like a "twisted" fulfillment.

 

Parts backed up by Light-sided prophecy; those becoming fulfilled.

Parts contradicted by Light-sided prophecy; I would guess "opposite" fulfillment.

The rest, I would guess a chance of either.

They will all be fulfilled, and either Light or Dark prophecies can be fulfilled in ways that are unexpected.

 

I believe that particular bit of prophecy was contingent in nature. She came seeking Rand, to do something that would cause him to die, yet serve her still. Moiraine indicated that certain paths might have happened in her letter, one of which was Rand serving Lanfear and calling himself Lews Therin. Sounds and awful lot like dying and yet serving her still, since Rand and LT are effectively the same person.

The rings of Rhuidean show alternate futures, but unless specified, prophecies (including Foretellings and Min's viewings) do not. For contingency to be established, we need if/then, either/or type scenarios, which we don't see here.

Edited by Terez

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I suspect that the Dark Prophecy are there as a counter balance where only one of the Dark Prophecy has to come true for the Light to loose, the light needs all their prophecy to come about or stuff like the above argument will happen and if one of the Dark Prophecy were to come about I think there will be a Domino affect and all the Dark Prophecy fore-told will happen and there will be no saving the Light.

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

Now how can we counter this prophecy.

 

if Lanfear is the Daughter of the night or Dream world I believe this leads into Perrin saving Rand. How I have no idea.

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I suspect that the Dark Prophecy are there as a counter balance where only one of the Dark Prophecy has to come true for the Light to loose

In that case, the Light would have already lost. Brandon has said that the prophecies are not competing:

 

Ty Margheim on Twitter 8 November 2010

Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon

Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.

Brandon

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

 

In other words, it's not 'either the Dark prophecies will be fulfilled, or the Light prophecies will be fulfilled'. They will be fulfilled unless 1) they are recorded wrong, or 2) the Pattern is destroyed, and none of them - including Light prophecies - are guaranteed to play out like the characters expect. I went into that a little bit more in my article on Dark Prophecy.

 

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Well thats interesting, nice work. It does look like all Prophecy may happen regardless of whether they have a Dark meaning or not. As to my way of thinking regarding Dark and Light prophecy they seem more like a If then Else statement. If this Prophecy happens then these things will happen Else this has a better chance of happening. Not so much as a Balancing scale or counter.

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i'm gonna throw a wrench in this and say the daughter of the night is actually tuon (daughter of the nine moons makes me think of night, why not?) and of mat and that mat is going to die but his sacrifice changes the way tuon sees channelers. The shining walls refers to tar valon.

 

 

boom. wrench.

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Well, as it has been said throughout the series, prophecy CAN be wrong, it is simply a list of what needs to happen for something else to happen, and since that is a dark prophecy it is best avoided all together.

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Well, as it has been said throughout the series, prophecy CAN be wrong, it is simply a list of what needs to happen for something else to happen, and since that is a dark prophecy it is best avoided all together.

we haven't seen any prophecies that failed. some characters expressed opinions that they might (only Rand I think) but this has never happened that we know of. they might resolve in different ways though in different possibly futures. we've seen that to some extent. Moiraine mentions that in one future that she saw in the Rhuidean rings ter'angreal Lanfear takes away Rand after their confrontation at the end of FoH and he comes back as her devoted lover. that would be one way to fulfill the dark prophecy in question. in the current timeline it will likely be fulfilled too, just differently. also, in Avi's visions in Rhuidean in ToM she sees a future where the "remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel that survive and live on are those in Seanchan captivity. in actual future it will be something very different but the prophecy will be fulfilled either way.

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Guest Emu on the Loose

@Terez:

 

I'm surprised you haven't seized upon Moridin as a possible explanation for this prophecy. According to your Forsaken love theory, then, presuming that Mierin has a plan that none of us is yet aware of, it could be that she is much more on top of things than we realize--or will become that way in AMoL.

 

That said, if you were to suggest that, I would disagree with you. =P

 

Also, I think you're wrong that Mierin decided to kill Rand at the docks. She was insane at the docks. Any decisions she made would not have stuck. That is perhaps why, in WH, RJ added "she realized" to imply a bit of surprise on her part at her own thought.

 

@Luckers:

 

I always assumed "she walks again" to refer to her escape from the Bore after 3000 years. But, you're right...it could refer to Mierin as Cyndane. Or it could refer to events which have yet to happen. Her storyline has been on hold since TFoH, and we already know BS is RAFOing everything on Mierin. Not even Demandred is getting that kind of an embargo.

 

I have no opinion as to whom Shaidar Haran meant when he said that Graendal's opportunity had been transferred to somebody else. There aren't many Forsaken left, and there are very few non-Forsaken baddies who would be both up to the task and answerable to SH.

 

I am resigned to "wait and see." Sigh. Less than a year!

 

Edit:

Slightly off-topic, but tell me that whomever drew this cover did not have the world's favorite Forsaken in mind:

 

birds.jpg

 

(Never mind the title; that's a photoshop. It's not entirely inaccurate, though!)

Edited by Emu on the Loose

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