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Always Sunny

First Time Reading the First Book

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Strictly out of morbid fascination I decided to look back into this thread. Without reading Sunnys blog and only the excerpts here I am baffled as to why any self respecting WOT fan would continue reading these summaries. Sunny clearly cannot separate reality from fantasy, her modern views flow out at every opportunity, she basically does not have a clue about the characters in the slightest.

 

And yet here you are reading this drivel.

 

Fucking Hereos! Wow!

 

And here I go for good this time.

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OH NO SOMEONE THINKS SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN I DO!

 

 

 

Some of her things are stretches (women really aren't equipped to be soldiers in this setting generally). But, I don't understand why she offends you so much.

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OH NO SOMEONE THINKS SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN I DO!

 

 

 

Some of her things are stretches (women really aren't equipped to be soldiers in this setting generally). But, I don't understand why she offends you so much.

 

This.

 

And I'm 90% confident UGAShadow is referring to Mighty Chin.

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OH NO SOMEONE THINKS SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN I DO!

 

 

 

Some of her things are stretches (women really aren't equipped to be soldiers in this setting generally). But, I don't understand why she offends you so much.

 

This.

 

And I'm 90% confident UGAShadow is referring to Mighty Chin.

 

Thats good, cause that 3rd point of mine is the only thing i've found I can't agree with to any extent. Everything else is fine, because I can see from both points of view.

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Anyway, faithful readers, on with the show!

 

 

 

*snerk* As soon as I hovered over the link, I knew what that had to be.

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Strictly out of morbid fascination I decided to look back into this thread. Without reading Sunnys blog and only the excerpts here I am baffled as to why any self respecting WOT fan would continue reading these summaries. Sunny clearly cannot separate reality from fantasy, her modern views flow out at every opportunity, she basically does not have a clue about the characters in the slightest.

 

And yet here you are reading this drivel.

 

Fucking Hereos! Wow!

 

And here I go for good this time.

 

Damn reality and those modern views all the kids are letting flow out at every opportunity. It's not decent or right I tell you and no self respecting WoT fan should have to deal with it. This type of independent thinking should not be tolerated!

 

Me thinks mighty chin do be Cenn Buie's screen name.

Edited by Suttree

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Then some teenage bullshit comes up. Mat, being the asshole that he is (Maybe not a asshole. Maybe his mental disability prevents him from grasping the appropriateness of his comments.), tries to incite some conflict between Egwene and Rand. Why does he do this? Does he think stirring the drama here in the Hell Dimension will ease tension? Whatever the reason, Mat blurts out that Min was hitting on Rand. Rand says that the feeling wasn't mutual. After all, Min dressed like a dude and had short hair. Does Rand look gay? No, he likes his women to look like women, thank you. No tomboys for him. This does not convince Egwene, though. I'm forced to wonder why she still gives a damn about Rand's love life. First it was Elayne and now Min. Does she still harbor feelings for Rand?

 

Then Perrin, coming to the defense of Rand — his hero, his god — attacks Egwene in this game of adolescent bickering. He brings up Aram, Egwene's sticky fingers partner from the Tinker camp. Egwene chokes on her tea and says, "Too hot." The tea or the Tinker, my dear? The boys laugh at their ability to fluster Egwene, congratulating each other with fist bumps as she stumbles away from the group. Congratulations, Boys, you've managed to embarrass a fifteen year-old girl. Fucking heroes.

Wow, really? I find it hard to believe anyone could have interpreted this scene in such a way. How could you possibly be enjoying the books so far if this is what you're seeing in your mind's eye when you read them?

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Then some teenage bullshit comes up. Mat, being the asshole that he is (Maybe not a asshole. Maybe his mental disability prevents him from grasping the appropriateness of his comments.), tries to incite some conflict between Egwene and Rand. Why does he do this? Does he think stirring the drama here in the Hell Dimension will ease tension? Whatever the reason, Mat blurts out that Min was hitting on Rand. Rand says that the feeling wasn't mutual. After all, Min dressed like a dude and had short hair. Does Rand look gay? No, he likes his women to look like women, thank you. No tomboys for him. This does not convince Egwene, though. I'm forced to wonder why she still gives a damn about Rand's love life. First it was Elayne and now Min. Does she still harbor feelings for Rand?

 

Then Perrin, coming to the defense of Rand — his hero, his god — attacks Egwene in this game of adolescent bickering. He brings up Aram, Egwene's sticky fingers partner from the Tinker camp. Egwene chokes on her tea and says, "Too hot." The tea or the Tinker, my dear? The boys laugh at their ability to fluster Egwene, congratulating each other with fist bumps as she stumbles away from the group. Congratulations, Boys, you've managed to embarrass a fifteen year-old girl. Fucking heroes.

Wow, really? I find it hard to believe anyone could have interpreted this scene in such a way. How could you possibly be enjoying the books so far if this is what you're seeing in your mind's eye when you read them?

I've been wondering that for about 15 chapters. This is less and less an observation/commentary on the series and more and more just a simple attack on either characters or the series as a whole, and I can't imagine that being fun to read or write.

Edited by Sleeper

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Strictly out of morbid fascination I decided to look back into this thread. Without reading Sunnys blog and only the excerpts here I am baffled as to why any self respecting WOT fan would continue reading these summaries. Sunny clearly cannot separate reality from fantasy, her modern views flow out at every opportunity, she basically does not have a clue about the characters in the slightest.

 

And yet here you are reading this drivel.

 

Fucking Hereos! Wow!

 

And here I go for good this time.

 

If you ever should decide to return I'd like to have some questions answered:

Why exactly did you post this? Should I be ashamed in reading someones perspective on these books?

 

You, mister, are taking yourself and these books WAY too seriously.

I'd advise less escapism in books and enjoy the world out there a little. There's shops, parks, often a nice forest not too far to clear ones head during a relaxing stroll, swimming pools, other people (some of which even are pretty to look at) and restaurants, very important, there's restaurants.

In most of these places you can find what people often call "A Life". Now, go out and get it.

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Then some teenage bullshit comes up. Mat, being the asshole that he is (Maybe not a asshole. Maybe his mental disability prevents him from grasping the appropriateness of his comments.), tries to incite some conflict between Egwene and Rand. Why does he do this? Does he think stirring the drama here in the Hell Dimension will ease tension? Whatever the reason, Mat blurts out that Min was hitting on Rand. Rand says that the feeling wasn't mutual. After all, Min dressed like a dude and had short hair. Does Rand look gay? No, he likes his women to look like women, thank you. No tomboys for him. This does not convince Egwene, though. I'm forced to wonder why she still gives a damn about Rand's love life. First it was Elayne and now Min. Does she still harbor feelings for Rand?

 

Then Perrin, coming to the defense of Rand — his hero, his god — attacks Egwene in this game of adolescent bickering. He brings up Aram, Egwene's sticky fingers partner from the Tinker camp. Egwene chokes on her tea and says, "Too hot." The tea or the Tinker, my dear? The boys laugh at their ability to fluster Egwene, congratulating each other with fist bumps as she stumbles away from the group. Congratulations, Boys, you've managed to embarrass a fifteen year-old girl. Fucking heroes.

Wow, really? I find it hard to believe anyone could have interpreted this scene in such a way. How could you possibly be enjoying the books so far if this is what you're seeing in your mind's eye when you read them?

I agree I don't understand the way you saw that scene. At all.

 

Egwene and Rand are effectively sworn to each other. Oh, it's obvious by now it won't happen, but that doesn't make a difference when they haven't even spoken about it. Engaged is engaged until said otherwise.

 

So when Egwene is clearly jealous of Rand's (totally imaginary) "flirtation" with Elayne and Min, what's wrong with Perrin jumping in and pointing out Egwene's hypocrisy? Becuase she is being hypocritical - she's getting all uppity about Rand meeting Elayne and "flirting" with Min, and Rand doesn't even have a clue that she did a hell of a lot more than talk with Aram.

 

Would you have seen the scene in the same way if it hadn't been those 4, but rather Nynaeve, Egwene and Rand, and it had originally been about Aram? If Rand had been jealous of Aram, and Nynaeve had asked "What about Elayne?", making Rand (inevitably) blush and making Egwene laugh? Would they have been "fucking heroes" for making Rand flustered and embarrassing him?

 

Above that though, it was a joke. They're friends, and they've been through a lot. What one earth was wrong - or sexist?! - about it?

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What you have to understand about Fantasy (and Sci-Fi for the most part) is that its set in a whole different world than ours. When someone is writing a drama in Eastern Europe you don't have to explain what happened to the Soviet Union because everyone knows what happened to it.

 

 

In Fantasy, their is a whole history that happened before you got your small glimpse at the world. Without alot of exposition the world is just going to feel bland, unoriginal and empty. In a world as vast as the WoTWorld you've got alot of history.

 

...

 

BTW, Trollocs using the Ways is a bad idea usually. The Black Wind likes Trollocs it would seem.

 

While you have a point on the exposition, EotW in particular does have big pacing issues. They never bothered me, because I pretty much enjoy exposition and slow scenes. Give me a new world to explore in a video game and I'm the type of guy who'll spend forever exploring it before even doing anything. :biggrin:

 

As for Trollocs, moving large numbers of anything through the Ways is typically a bad idea, as Machin Shin can apparently sense groups moving through it (can it sense Trollocs more? Or no?). Trollocs have moved through it, of course, but like most living things they prefer to be alive and will generally balk at it unless forced in. You'll learn more about the Ways, Always Sunny.

 

As for Fain, he's something of an anomaly, as you'll come to see.

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Rand is, in fact, a shiny rock that everyone just calls Rand and acts like is a person. I'm serious. Its the big reveal in book 3. Along with the Ba'alzamon just being a rock collector. Its weird, but an awesome climax.

 

I knew it!

 

I know I'm running behind on reading the blog, but while reading it I was inspired to write this alternate WoT short story....

 

 

Chapter 1: The Dark One's Good Idea

 

Rand and Tam al'Thor walk down the Quarry Road with a cart and horse. Even though spring should have arrived, the wind is still carrying an icy chill sending gusts of cold through Rand. He is holding a bow and arrow, ready to draw quickly. It doesn't help as thousands of ravens swoop down upon Emond's Field and kill every woman, infant, and man over thirty.

 

Bool! The End!

 

That's a good idea. But the book doesn't have to end there. Maybe, being ta'vaern, Rand wasn't in town at the time. Maybe he was out with the main characters in the stedding, playing whatever game Two Rivers kids play, so they weren't noticed by the birds. What happened in the real book, though, was that the Dark One proved to be completely ineffective. What kind of Dark Lord lets his troops get taken by surprise like that? Like USA in World War Two, the first enemy surprise attack needs to be devastating and in your face. That raven attack that slaughters everyone would have worked.

 

But I'd just prefer no attacks at all, really. I'd like my hero motivated by something other than protecting his town. But that is just me, I'll admit.

 

Can you let us know where you are in the reading now? Its hard not to give up spoilers without knowing where you are.

 

I've finished reading The Great Hunt. I started the first chapter of The Dragon Reborn and then decided to take a small break from the Wheel of Time to catch up on other books.

 

1. I think Egwene is older than you assume, by 1, maybe 2 years. There is only 1.5/2 years difference between her and Rand, i'm sure. At least thats how I seen it :mellow:

 

Thanks for reading, Vieira151! I love people reading this blog. It makes me happy. And I've been under the impression that Egwene is about fifteen years old and Rand is seventeen or eighteen. No one has given actual numbers in the book so I'm going by how they act, generally, and other little clues. So maybe Egwene is sixteen?

 

2. Normally, I don't mind reading from your views, I'm an open person like that(though I assume that makes me more hateworthy for never choosing a side in arguments) and I can definately see your point in most of your sexism remarks/comments. I can also see reasons why you may also dislike certain parts of the book people say you will like(because of Fem Dom) but I won't say it, just so you can keep an open mind till you get there. Anyways,

 

I love the open mind part. I get sorta the opposite feeling here in this forum. It seems to me that if I don't see the book exactly like everyone else then I'm wrong. I need to toe the line, so to speak, and read the characters in line with their interpretations. For example, I see Perrin as a murderous loser. But because I don't take into account all those orphans he saves from a fire that one time in Book 33 I've got the completely wrong idea of him.

 

It makes me angry sometimes (though I try to not let it get to me) that some people (not always the same people as I was referring to in that last paragraph) say mean things about the characters, too. There are whole threads on this forum about who we hate the most, who we'd like to strangle, who the book needs to kill off so we don't have to deal with them any more. I just don't get why I get flak for hating characters, too. Do I hate for the wrong reasons? Would I get more respect if I hated Egwene for not being understanding enough? Would I be considered to have an open mind if I hated Nynaeve for being bossy, too, like nearly everyone else?

 

Does every guy who wants to protect somebody think that because they have a Vagina they can't do what is required? Does everything have to come down to whether or not I have a Vagina or Penis to determine what I can or cannot do?

 

In this book? Unless the Aes Sedai are involved, then yes. Rand only protects Egwene, a woman. He tried to leave Mat and Perrin to fight the Trollocs south of Shadar Logoth as he went to find and rescue Egwene. Perrin tried to save Egwene from Aram. In the flight from Emond's Field Rand was wishing Egwene's horse to go faster, not his own or his male friends or even all of theirs. He's slapping her horse's rump to get it to go faster, he's telling her to go home to stay out of danger, and (later in the book) he's holding her back in the climax. The one time there was male/male protection was when Rand was sick and Mat was blind on the Caemlyn Road. Why didn't Rand stop Mat from doing that crap to the Whitecloaks in Baerlon (or doing something after the fact to save his buddy from trouble) Why didn't Rand talk Mat out of exploring Shadar Logoth, protecting him from the dangers out there? Does Rand not love his best friend, care for him?

 

So it isn't just this one scene that shaped my mind about "protecting women." It was a series of events throughout the whole book, each individual one not that big of a deal, but when put together paint that picture.

 

Anyways, one could also argue, yeah Rand is a sexist. He doesn't like women coming to harm, doesnt want them to get injured/dead when he's responsible(yeah, he isnt directly responsible in EotW, which makes it worse I 'spose) and he just wants to straight out protect them. Yeah, I can see from your POV why you may dislike him(or the TR in general) for this.

 

See, this is not why I dislike the character. I dislike him, most of all, because he doesn't do much in this entire book. He just tags along, you know? Drifts from one encounter to the next, letting the plot have its way with him.

 

But the sexism isn't that he doesn't want women to get hurt. Nobody wants women to get hurt (that's a bit of a fib, though. I want women to get hurt in this story. There is so much slaughter and killing and death but hardly ever do women even get an injury in the parts that I've read. There was a scene in the next book where some women and children get chopped up and I hate to say that I cheered, "about damn time!"). The sexism comes when he doesn't care about men getting hurt to save the women. We can't say that he doesn't want the people he loves to go into the Blight because he's got Perrin and Mat with him. And we can't say that he wants younger and weaker people to stay behind because he doesn't want Nynaeve to go, either.

 

This post is already getting to be too long so I won't bore you with going into the other, non-protecting the ladies reasons why I cry, "sexism," and clutch at my pearls. It's just the subtle clues about who talks first and who keeps silent, who walks and who rides the horses, who does things and who asks permission, who seems confident and who seems meek, what's expected of men and what's expected of women, and other little clues like that.

 

So you don't really have to keep pointing out that Rand does something which makes you think he thinks vagina's are inferior to penises(that's the plural, right? :unsure: )

 

I don't suppose I have to keep pointing it out. Then again, other people don't have to keep bringing up the fact that they don't like my opinions. This isn't directed at you, Vieira151. This thread has more than four hundred replies in it. About a fourth are mine, a fourth are those by people who sometimes agree with me, a fourth by those who disagree with everything, and a fourth are people telling me that they'll never read my blog again. This goes out to them, I think.

 

Okay, I'm not sure if this is a joke or serious. But if you're serious, then why so harsh? They are friends, its a joke. Did you never makes jokes with your friends about a boy they liked? Or make jokes to a guy a bout a girl they liked? Those jokes tend to be embarrasing, no? I don't see whats so different here. If the roles were switched(3 girls, 1 boy) would you have thought the same about it? Would you have said "Fucking Heroes"? Or would have been "That's how you show it to the guys!"? or something similar(or something milder. I may be exaggerating). I woulda seen it as a joke.

 

I get that it is supposed to be seen as a joke. I'm pretty sure I said that it'd fit right in in a teen comedy. But I think it is a cop out to just write it off as a joke. How many racist things, sexist things, or just personally insulting things have been said only to have the teller say, "It's only a joke. Lighten up." The Two Rivers Boys could say anything they wanted to Egwene and if she started crying then they could have said, "Sorry, Egwene. We didn't mean to hurt you. It was only a joke." When they are laughing and she is walking away from the camp to sleep away from them (in a Hell Dimension, by the way) then the joke fell flat, to say the least.

 

And yes, I used to joke like that with my friends. I now realize that it's stupid and mean. Let's give the Indian girl the nickname "Paki," let's make fun of how much the big girl eats, let's stir up trouble in the relationships between our friends just to see what happens. It seems fun and harmless when we're teenagers but we grow up we come to realize that jokes should boost out buddies, not tear them down. A good joke around a camp fire should cause so much laughter that the monsters are driven scared back into the darkness, not so embarrassingly probing that members walk away rather than stay and look at the faces of her friends.

 

Also on the continuing Aram thing, you serious about the whole 'more than a dance/they had sex' part? Because I am 100% they were all brought up with the view that sex before marriage is looked down upon greatly. Im not basing this off further evidence from later books, but primarily off the fact it was looked down upon when my gran was young(and probably a bit later too. I'm not overly informed in this area). This isn't that long ago, so I can assume that view would have been very similar in the 1700's/1800's or in the sorta timeframe WoT is set. Also don't ask me what punishments men got back then for sex before marriage compared to the women. You never hear any of these stories, mainly 'cause y'know, they were sexist back then.

 

I have never read the later books. I have no idea how the kids were brought up. I assume a 1700s era England (so around George I's reign, I'm guessing, or maybe around the time of Queen Anne's War, or maybe later in the Pirates of the Caribbean era) but without a church. That's like being told to imagine a 2011 US high school but with not internet or cellphones! The point is, without the church telling the kids not to have sex then they'll have to have some other sort of monolithic authority to keep them in line. The Women's Circle? I could get behind that idea if they constantly brought it up. If all of them said "Women's Circle this," and "Women's Circle that," as often as they said, "Light," or "Burn me!" then I'd believe that that institution was pervasive enough in their society to keep tabs on sexual behavior.

 

But that's all way off point. I only mean to say that I can't be told to ignore what I'm reading now because thousands of pages from now one line of dialogue

will change everything.

 

I mean, Perrin jumps in on Rand's side to attack Egwene's behavior with Aram, right? Why did Perrin not jump in on Egwene's side and question what Rand did with Elayne? Why did he not stay neutral and condemn them both for acting like a couple of adulterers? Perrin took the sexist Bros Before Hoes position instead of a thoughtful (or pious) "we've been taught that this behavior is wrong and I don't like seeing it from either of you" one.

 

I hope your joking from the quote, but It's hard for me to tell. My social retardation(not really. Just feels like it) doesn't allow me to judge correctly whether you are joking or not :sad:

 

Don't be too hard on yourself! I think you know what my jokes are and what my opinions are. It's just my opinions are not — I dunno, mainstream? — so you think I might be joking when you really know I'm not (well, not too much). Besides, if a joke is told poorly it is the joke teller that is at fault, not the listener! I'm going with the classic "It's not you, it's me" routine on this one.

 

Strictly out of morbid fascination I decided to look back into this thread.

 

Woohoo! I'm glad people are fascinated by what I write. I'm not 100% even I'd describe it as fascinating but I love the compliments when I get them. I'm glad to have you back!

 

And here I go for good this time.

 

I spoke too soon. Sorry to see you go, Mighty Chin. It was fun having you stop by. I hope you eventually come back. I mean, we're so near the end!

 

Wow, really? I find it hard to believe anyone could have interpreted this scene in such a way. How could you possibly be enjoying the books so far if this is what you're seeing in your mind's eye when you read them?

 

I've been wondering that for about 15 chapters. This is less and less an observation/commentary on the series and more and more just a simple attack on either characters or the series as a whole, and I can't imagine that being fun to read or write.

 

I can see your bewilderment. Sometimes even I wonder why I'm reading these books. I started off not knowing anything about them (or the genre, really) and found that they really aren't my cup of tea. But they aren't that hard to read (really, if I didn't take notes I'd finish them in about two days) so when I've finished a chapter in a book I'm "actually reading" I'll pop on over to the Wheel of Time and read a chapter or two there.

 

But the #1 reason I'm still reading? I'm not a quitter. I told myself I was going to read these books and, gosh darn it, I am going to do just that! I might not take notes (even now I'm taking far fewer than I used to) or even blog about it but I'm going to read them all come hell or high water. Then, after a long break from non-literary fiction, I'll come back and try one of those other fantasy books. Maybe an award winner, though, so that I get an example of the best of the genre instead of the most popular. Amazon tells me Guy Gavriel Kay, Neil Gaiman, and China Mieville are pretty good so I might check them out (what do you forum goers think? Any good?).

 

Egwene and Rand are effectively sworn to each other. Oh, it's obvious by now it won't happen, but that doesn't make a difference when they haven't even spoken about it. Engaged is engaged until said otherwise.

 

This must be something mentioned in another book because not once did I get this impression. Engaged? The very first scene with Egwene, one of her very first lines, was her telling Rand that she wanted to leave Emond's Field to be a Wisdom in some other village. She didn't ask him if he'd come along with her. He didn't demand she stay behind for him (he demanded she stay behind because "nobody leaves Emond's Field"). They never said that maybe they should talk about what her decision meant "for us." There never was an "us," in my opinion.

 

Then, after Emond's Field, they spend most of the book not talking to each other. Rand does things to piss Egwene off and she ignores him to talk to Moiraine and Nynaeve. He never talks about how "he lost her" or how "his future will be different without her in my life." He never thinks about how happy she makes him, how much he wants to be with her, or even that he has any romantic feelings towards her at all. All he thinks about is how he's got to protect her. I don't see any love.

 

Above that though, it was a joke. They're friends, and they've been through a lot. What one earth was wrong - or sexist?! - about it?

 

I may have answer this somewhere above in this unreasonably long reply. One can't say something sexist, get called out on it, and have the excuse that "it's only a joke." For example: how many black guys does it take to screw in a light bulb? It doesn't matter because no matter what the answer is the joke is racist. It could be the funniest joke you've ever heard. Doesn't matter. So while I'm open to debate about whether or not the joke was appropriate to the situation or if it were just jokes among friends I'm not very keen on the idea that calling something a joke excuses what's in that joke.

 

Now, having said that, I am a hypocrite. I've used sexist jokes in my blog. Because, damn it, sometimes they are funny. That's the world we live in, where sometimes mean and degrading things are gut-bustingly hilarious. It's stupid but it's the way it is (until we all change it, that is!). I've even been called out on it in this thread before (though not because they were offended by what I wrote, usually, but as a way to attack my point of view by attacking me personally). I try to avoid it, no doubt, but sometimes my own sexism and racism and classism seeps through. Nobody's perfect. I just wish these characters were a little more aware of what they do, you know? Or if not them then the author.

 

Whew, and I am done with this reply. Way too long for normal people, don't you all think?

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I enjoy reading your blog even though I rarely understand why you have the reactions that you do. I had formerly thought that most was just to be funny, but now I wonder.

 

My biggest question is just when is a male supposed to be chivalrous and when not?

 

Rand is a douche for trying to help Egwene. But Perrin is a douche for not trying to help Egwene. But Perrin is also a douche for wanting Egwene to ride while he walks.

 

It seems that a male is supposed to help only when absolutely necessary and the rest of the time he should understand exactly when the female can take care of herself.

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I may have answer this somewhere above in this unreasonably long reply. One can't say something sexist, get called out on it, and have the excuse that "it's only a joke." For example: how many black guys does it take to screw in a light bulb? It doesn't matter because no matter what the answer is the joke is racist. It could be the funniest joke you've ever heard. Doesn't matter. So while I'm open to debate about whether or not the joke was appropriate to the situation or if it were just jokes among friends I'm not very keen on the idea that calling something a joke excuses what's in that joke.

 

Now, having said that, I am a hypocrite. I've used sexist jokes in my blog. Because, damn it, sometimes they are funny. That's the world we live in, where sometimes mean and degrading things are gut-bustingly hilarious. It's stupid but it's the way it is (until we all change it, that is!). I've even been called out on it in this thread before (though not because they were offended by what I wrote, usually, but as a way to attack my point of view by attacking me personally). I try to avoid it, no doubt, but sometimes my own sexism and racism and classism seeps through. Nobody's perfect. I just wish these characters were a little more aware of what they do, you know? Or if not them then the author.

 

Whew, and I am done with this reply. Way too long for normal people, don't you all think?

 

 

I feel like that comment was more along the lines of why is it okay for Egwene to make snide superior comments about Rand and his conversations with Elayne and Min (which from the POVs were completely innocent but she assumes were not because he's a man), but not okay for Perrin to bring up her interaction with Aram which was much more along the lines of flirting as a direct ripost. I'm not saying that there's any problem with her flirting and having fun, rather it's that she obviously thought that there was a problem with Rand doing the same (and he actually didn't). If you pick an argument you can hardly complain when someone else beats you at it.

 

As to where it was stated that Rand and Egwene are engaged.... can't remember. I think it is mentioned in the early chapters right after Tam and Rand get to Emond's Field. IIRC Rand remembers a time that Egwene's mother spoke with Tam and then ever after no girl who was Egwene's friend would dance with him. Thus the shock when he saw her braid since it was basically an early warning that they'd likely be getting married soon.

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As to where it was stated that Rand and Egwene are engaged.... can't remember. I think it is mentioned in the early chapters right after Tam and Rand get to Emond's Field. IIRC Rand remembers a time that Egwene's mother spoke with Tam and then ever after no girl who was Egwene's friend would dance with him. Thus the shock when he saw her braid since it was basically an early warning that they'd likely be getting married soon.

This scene (not the part when he saw her hair braided), though relatively early in the series, actually appears in the second half of the second book when Rand's group goes to a stedding and Loial is very nervous about it.

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@Always Sunny -

 

Mat, doing his best (which isn't very good yet, btw) to lighten a dark situation starts ribbing his buddy about all them girls. Egwene get's uppity with Rand because, while they weren't engaged, everyone in the Two Rivers (including both Rand and Egwene) just assumed they were going to get married someday. Both of them, even though they aren't in love, and it's painstakingly obvious they aren't going to get together, still think of each other subconsciously as that person I'm going to marry eventually. So Egwene get's uppity at Rand, and Perrin diverts attention from his friend by mentioning Aram (turn about's fair play, right? It's the same thing that already happened to Rand). The problem is that none of this is in good taste. These kids are trying to be normal (and, just FYI, Egwene at this time is 17, Rand Mat and Perrin are just around 19), but it's just not working. This isn't the time or the place for jokes.

I don't see that as bad writing, because it's actually not funny. It's good writing - showing that these kids have no idea how to react to the situation.

 

Also, yes, Rand, Mat and Perrin are all sitting around and getting swept up into events - they aren't trying to do anything, they're just trying to stay alive. This, again, is imho an example of realistic writing. Your home gets attacked, suddenly everyone is telling you that you are (and all the signs are pointing to your being) important. And the Devil (Dark One) is after you. And he's got monsters. Of course the kids are still in a state of reactive shock!

As they grow as characters, however, they start actually doing things. But give 'em time! They just left redneckville (even if it is a nicer redneckville than most). They'll grow into real heroes eventually, or die trying.

And yes, they will make horrible, horrible mistakes. They've already made some pretty bad ones.

 

 

I'm really enjoying your blog, but I'm worried that you aren't reading this with anything close to an open mind. Still, everyone (myself included) has their own bias.

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I mean, Perrin jumps in on Rand's side to attack Egwene's behavior with Aram, right? Why did Perrin not jump in on Egwene's side and question what Rand did with Elayne? Why did he not stay neutral and condemn them both for acting like a couple of adulterers? Perrin took the sexist Bros Before Hoes position instead of a thoughtful (or pious) "we've been taught that this behavior is wrong and I don't like seeing it from either of you" one.

Because Perrin saw first hand Egwene blatantly flirting and dancing for days with Aram. Rand, on the other hand, did nothing which can be considered unfaithful or adulterous in any way when he met Elayne. Perrin, of course was not there, but really - what are the odds that the heir of the throne would do more than with some country bumpkin? And he had no reason not to trust Rand on this. Perrin was just teasing Egwene about her hypocrisy. She can dance and flirt with Aram, but when she heard that Rand had talk to other good looking young women, she was all annoyed and indignant.

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I've finished reading The Great Hunt. I started the first chapter of The Dragon Reborn and then decided to take a small break from the Wheel of Time to catch up on other books.

 

What did you think of The Great Hunt?

 

So maybe Egwene is sixteen?

 

I think she, and the boys are older than you think. Older than that even. I think I may got my numbers wrong in the last post. Age is never explicitly pointed out in WoT for some reason. I believe you may think the group so young because they act particularly childish, and again you could argue reasons for this(For Mat you'll find out more about how his mind works in Book 3 and beyond).

 

For example, I see Perrin as a murderous loser. But because I don't take into account all those orphans he saves from a fire that one time in Book 33 I've got the completely wrong idea of him.

 

I could see why you think perrin like that. It's not hard to see why. Unfortunately, for you - probably - I felt I could relate a lot to Perrin and Rand in this book when I read it the first time(last December :tongue: ). Both of them don't say much at all, and spend most of their times thinking rather than acting. Thats me right there. And when they do act, it's usually spontaneous and doesn't directly go along with their lines of thought. Yeah, thats me again. They are also kinda useless with girls(i mean, how they generally act and interact with them. eg they say the wrong things. You've noticed those things from back in EF). So yeah, I could relate a great deal towards them. But remember, there are 13 more(or 12 more) books for their characters to develop, over what, 2/2.5 years(story time)? Again, you may not like their character arcs, but hey, thats your opinion. A lot of people dislike different characters. :myrddraal:

 

I just don't get why I get flak for hating characters, too. Do I hate for the wrong reasons?

 

Don't worry, other people get the flak too! And I suppose it's for different reasons, rather than wrong reasons. Mostpeople don't like diverted from the norm. That's why people generally suck.

 

Rand only protects Egwene, a woman. He tried to leave Mat and Perrin to fight the Trollocs south of Shadar Logoth as he went to find and rescue Egwene. In the flight from Emond's Field Rand was wishing Egwene's horse to go faster, not his own or his male friends or even all of theirs. The one time there was male/male protection was when Rand was sick and Mat was blind on the Caemlyn Road. Why didn't Rand stop Mat from doing that crap to the Whitecloaks in Baerlon (or doing something after the fact to save his buddy from trouble). Why didn't Rand talk Mat out of exploring Shadar Logoth, protecting him from the dangers out there? Does Rand not love his best friend, care for him?

 

And if Rand only protected Mat throughout the book. Would that mean he was sexist against women? I can see why in the Shador Logoth situation you would get annoyed about him ignoring Mat and Perrin. Cause Rand continued to try and do what he has done the rest of the book. I'm sure Rand might have tried to protect Mat(perrin had an axe, after all) if he fully trusted Moiraine, or even if he realised Egwene was with her(did he? I can't remember). But yeah.

 

The whispering on the horse. Well its Rand's(Tam's) horse, and its only a wee 'shaggy mare', while everybody else has got the best in town cause Lan splashed the cash. I don't think its got anything to do with Egwene, besides the fact she is the one riding it. If Perrin or even Thom were falling behind on Bela, i'm sure Rand would have wished for Bela to catch up.

 

Other times of Male/Male protection was Rand and Tam at the start, Thom jumping at the myrdraal in whitebridge to help Mat and Rand. One could also argue Domon letting the 3 of them on his boat for a start(rather than chucking them off) is an act of Male/Male protection.

 

And as for Rand not persuading Mat? Mat is incredibly stubborn. One of the reason's I disliked him so much for the first 4 books. I'm sure Rand does care for him. Maybe he's just a bit overwhelmed with the whole thing, I dunno.

 

I dislike him, most of all, because he doesn't do much in this entire book. He just tags along, you know? Drifts from one encounter to the next, letting the plot have its way with him.

 

True, very true. I think this is mainly to try get the reader to belive he is kinda helpless, and (foreshadowing) that he has no control over his future.

 

Nobody wants women to get hurt (that's a bit of a fib, though. I want women to get hurt in this story. There is so much slaughter and killing and death but hardly ever do women even get an injury in the parts that I've read. There was a scene in the next book where some women and children get chopped up and I hate to say that I cheered, "about damn time!").

 

There's plenty of torture and death of women in future books. :baalzamon:

 

The sexism comes when he doesn't care about men getting hurt to save the women. We can't say that he doesn't want the people he loves to go into the Blight because he's got Perrin and Mat with him. And we can't say that he wants younger and weaker people to stay behind because he doesn't want Nynaeve to go, either.

 

I think 'doesn't care' is a bit strong. They are friends, of course he cares. It still down the sexist route of 'I think they can protect themselves better than the girl in the dress'. Anyways, you'll RAFO about Rand and Egwene's 'love' for each other later on(tSR, i think :unsure: ) which can partially clear up his actions in this book. You probably won't agree but time will tell.

 

And to the 2nd sentence. Mat and Perrin have to go no matter what. They still don't know who B'a wants. Egwene and Nynaeve on the other hand don't have to go. They aren't needed to go. Though on the other hand, if it were two men Rand probably wouldn't mind so much if they came. But blah.

 

It's just the subtle clues about who talks first and who keeps silent, who walks and who rides the horses, who does things and who asks permission, who seems confident and who seems meek, what's expected of men and what's expected of women, and other little clues like that.

 

Maybe those subtle clues is Jordan's ways of emphasising parts of those characters? I think the who walks and who rides is only applicable to the Perrin, trying to appear Macho. The confidence/meek parts are individual to character aswell. Moiraine, Lan and Nynaeve all show confidence. Mat does aswell, though he is ill for most of the book so you only see it occasionally. Perrin tries to appear confidence, after all, it's a manly thing, right? But he isn't at all. You can tell from his POV he isn't very confident. I know, because I can relate to his POV :blush:. So that makes Perrin meek. Rand and Egwene? I'm not sure which Rand fits into, again he is like Perrin I believe. So he is meek, also. I would say Egwene appears meek, but has a hidden confidence(as shown by her forcing her way into the group at the start). Again, this is my view. I'd like to hear what you think about them individually. I'll let you RAFO about how that changes they undergo, if any. :cool:

 

 

Unfortunately for a person with your views, what's expected of men and women is built into society. There's nothing you can do to change it immediately. It will take time for that. As for the characters in the books, (I dont mean this harshly) I think you should accept that the female characters accept their roles and what's expected of them. You don't hear of them complaining about what they do. In fact, it seems to be the men who complain most in these books. There isn't much complaining in Eye of the World, its more filled with Rand's/Perrin's thoughs of denial and getting back to the Two Rivers. They don't want no responsibility. Anyways, you'll learn soon enough that all the main characters are pretty bossy and controlling, men and women alike :laugh:

 

I'm not sure what part you are reffering to with the 'who asks and who does' part here.

 

 

This goes out to them, I think.

 

Yeah, a lot of the personal insults and direct arguments kinda ruined your thread. Discussion(not arguments or insults) is good though, right? :unsure:

 

The Two Rivers Boys could say anything they wanted to Egwene and if she started crying then they could have said, "Sorry, Egwene. We didn't mean to hurt you. It was only a joke." When they are laughing and she is walking away from the camp to sleep away from them (in a Hell Dimension, by the way) then the joke fell flat, to say the least.

 

Yeah, they could have. I don't think they are that harsh with their jokes, and if they made a joke that bad I doubt Egwene would have cried. She is more likely to get angry, I believes. Also, yeah, the joke did kinda fall flat. Don't think she went to sleep herself though, probably went over to Nynaeve and Moiraine. I think.

 

I now realize that it's stupid and mean. Let's give the Indian girl the nickname "Paki," let's make fun of how much the big girl eats, let's stir up trouble in the relationships between our friends just to see what happens. It seems fun and harmless when we're teenagers but we grow up we come to realize that jokes should boost out buddies, not tear them down. A good joke around a camp fire should cause so much laughter that the monsters are driven scared back into the darkness, not so embarrassingly probing that members walk away rather than stay and look at the faces of her friends.

 

It is stupid and mean. But they are still young, they haven't grown out of making jokes like that yet, especially Mat. I'm sure you could accept that? Also, you will find out not all people find certain jokes funny. it's kinda odd, but some places have a different type of humour than others. So I'm assuming those 'teeny' jokes about relationships, men and women are 'Two Rivers' humour. Or maybe that sorta joke was the only one they could think up while being in 'a hell dimension' runing for their lives(kinda)? It's open to opinion, though.

 

I tended to stay away from people who make 'Paki' jokes. The jokes tended to stop after Primary School here(thats like, 12/13?) anyways. But they people who made them were generally dicks.

 

I have never read the later books. I have no idea how the kids were brought up. I assume a 1700s era England (so around George I's reign, I'm guessing, or maybe around the time of Queen Anne's War, or maybe later in the Pirates of the Caribbean era) but without a church. That's like being told to imagine a 2011 US high school but with not internet or cellphones! The point is, without the church telling the kids not to have sex then they'll have to have some other sort of monolithic authority to keep them in line. The Women's Circle? I could get behind that idea if they constantly brought it up. If all of them said "Women's Circle this," and "Women's Circle that," as often as they said, "Light," or "Burn me!" then I'd believe that that institution was pervasive enough in their society to keep tabs on sexual behavior.

 

Again, I wasn't trying to base what I said from later books(it is mentioned once or twice, i think) but rather from intuition. I suppose my point wasn't very well brought across :laugh:. I agree it would be good to clear up that area in the story rather than the glossary, but it's a fantasy book, and the first one in a series. Jordan seems to have played the 'cliches' in this book more than the others, mainly to get the book readers and attention. Plus many fantasy readers don't really want to read about the politics of a small village in the middle of nowhere. They want MAGIC SWORDS and DRAGONS and GIANT MONSTERS THAT STOMP etc. So I suppose from your point of view its unclear(especially if you no read glossary) about how it all works in these areas. The books definately become more political and 'world wide' as you get further into them. But again, I think the fantasy genre(Im not a big reader, I'll tell you that now. I've read very few books.) is more of a storytelling/history book.

 

But that's all way off point. I only mean to say that I can't be told to ignore what I'm reading now because thousands of pages from now one line of dialogue will change everything.

 

That's true. I suppose I differ from you in that I only came to DM after I finished 13(I had came across it before, but didn't join or look at forums until then) so I had nobody to tell me spoilers or ruin my theories. Now that i came after 13, well I have very similar theories to others :mellow:

 

I mean, Perrin jumps in on Rand's side to attack Egwene's behavior with Aram, right? Why did Perrin not jump in on Egwene's side and question what Rand did with Elayne? Why did he not stay neutral and condemn them both for acting like a couple of adulterers? Perrin took the sexist Bros Before Hoes position instead of a thoughtful (or pious) "we've been taught that this behavior is wrong and I don't like seeing it from either of you" one.

 

He does, and you can say he is wrong for it. People make mistakes, right? Well characters in these books make a shitload of mistakes. Some have worse consequences than others, but there will be countless times you'll think "You shoulda bloody said this you woolheaded mule!" about a character. Just like you do with people in real life. Again, you could argue for why he did in this situation but it's a personal opinion as always.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself! I think you know what my jokes are and what my opinions are. It's just my opinions are not — I dunno, mainstream? — so you think I might be joking when you really know I'm not (well, not too much).

 

:laugh: I'm always ard on myself. Tend to blame myself for things. Makes other people seem better. If I didn't, I'd probably share the same view as my mum on people. And if that were the case I would have no friends :tongue: I tend to be able to gloss over bad points of people. I suppose it's how I can put up with them, especailly certain characters in the book. :laugh:

 

Then, after Emond's Field, they spend most of the book not talking to each other. Rand does things to piss Egwene off and she ignores him to talk to Moiraine and Nynaeve. All he thinks about is how he's got to protect her. I don't see any love.

 

Again RAFO about their love. Its a subtle switch, but makes both of their actions in Eye of the World a little more believable than it first seems. At least from my eyes. 'Cause well, I a friend whom I view the same way :biggrin:

 

Now, having said that, I am a hypocrite. I've used sexist jokes in my blog. Because, damn it, sometimes they are funny. Nobody's perfect. I just wish these characters were a little more aware of what they do, you know? Or if not them then the author.

 

I think everybody is culpible of that. And yes, nobody is perfect, like the characters. I suppose I wished that too sometimes, but I get the feeling Jordan made the characters like that. Like, that's just second nature for them, or they just plain out don't know what to say/do and say/do the wrong things. It happens to everybody.

 

Also, about the whole sexism in Wheel of Time. It does seem Jordan went for a kind of balance between male and female. But in all honesty I believe it would be hard for him, a male, to create a world which is balanced in that way. You can't please everyone, right? i just like to think everybody appreciates what he attempted.

 

Anyways, end of huge wall of text. Most of its probably shit too :laugh:

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I love the open mind part. I get sorta the opposite feeling here in this forum. It seems to me that if I don't see the book exactly like everyone else then I'm wrong. I need to toe the line, so to speak, and read the characters in line with their interpretations. For example, I see Perrin as a murderous loser. But because I don't take into account all those orphans he saves from a fire that one time in Book 33 I've got the completely wrong idea of him.

 

It makes me angry sometimes (though I try to not let it get to me) that some people (not always the same people as I was referring to in that last paragraph) say mean things about the characters, too. There are whole threads on this forum about who we hate the most, who we'd like to strangle, who the book needs to kill off so we don't have to deal with them any more. I just don't get why I get flak for hating characters, too. Do I hate for the wrong reasons? Would I get more respect if I hated Egwene for not being understanding enough? Would I be considered to have an open mind if I hated Nynaeve for being bossy, too, like nearly everyone else?

 

To start I'd just like to say that you have made me go back and reevaluate some of this series with the view points you have brought up (not saying that I agreed in the end anyway but I did think about it). However, in regards to your statement that "It seems to me that if I don't see the book exactly like everyone else then I'm wrong" I would tend to disagree. To me it seems that many of the people who attacked your points of view (randsc coming to mind from early in this thread) were trying to do the exact same thing you are and that is make you rethink what you read and maybe come to a different conclusion. In fact the reason many of them stopped reading the thread was not only because they disagreed (although that undoubtedly had something to do with it) but rather they felt that while you were asking for readers of the thread to have an open mind you yourself did not. You praise readers (as shown above) for open mindedness, yet there is no evidence in any of your posts that you took the, for lack of a better term, criticism of the posters you allude to and actually reevaluated your position on the books. Even if you came to the same conclusion as you had before all many of these posters were looking for, at least from my reading of this thread, was something along the lines of "I thought about what you said, however, here is why I disagree still..." instead all they got was "Nope disagree" (which to be fair was all they gave you so perhaps both parties could have done better).

 

 

But the #1 reason I'm still reading? I'm not a quitter. I told myself I was going to read these books and, gosh darn it, I am going to do just that! I might not take notes (even now I'm taking far fewer than I used to) or even blog about it but I'm going to read them all come hell or high water. Then, after a long break from non-literary fiction, I'll come back and try one of those other fantasy books. Maybe an award winner, though, so that I get an example of the best of the genre instead of the most popular. Amazon tells me Guy Gavriel Kay, Neil Gaiman, and China Mieville are pretty good so I might check them out (what do you forum goers think? Any good?).

 

Love that you're not gonna stop, even if the blog posts dwindle to one a book they will still be an interesting read. As for other authors/novels in the genre which are good, I'd recommend Gaiman (loved most of his stuff) but my first recommendation to everyone recently has been Patrick Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind

and the sequel Wise Man's Fear (if you are on these forums and have not read this please go pick up a copy from the library as you will probably love these books). Rothfuss is an amazing writer and the story is well written as well as engaging here is a link to a description The Name of the Wind. That is to the Wikipedia page so the plot summary may include some spoilerish stuff but from what I've seen so far that won't bother you to much.

 

sorry for the walls of text but this is what happens when I write :tongue:

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This must be something mentioned in another book because not once did I get this impression. Engaged? The very first scene with Egwene' date=' one of her very first lines, was her telling Rand that she wanted to leave Emond's Field to be a Wisdom in some other village. She didn't ask him if he'd come along with her. He didn't demand she stay behind for him (he demanded she stay behind because "nobody leaves Emond's Field"). They never said that maybe they should talk about what her decision meant "for us." There never was an "us," in my opinion.

 

Then, after Emond's Field, they spend most of the book not talking to each other. Rand does things to piss Egwene off and she ignores him to talk to Moiraine and Nynaeve. He never talks about how "he lost her" or how "his future will be different without her in my life." He never thinks about how happy she makes him, how much he wants to be with her, or even that he has any romantic feelings towards her at all. All he thinks about is how he's got to protect her. I don't see any love.[/quote']

 

I actually think it's fairly clear right from the start, but I'm talking with the hindsight of 2 reads of the series where Egwene and Rand's relationship changes a lot. But yes, they are promised, and they fully expect(ed) to get married and lead the picture perfect TR life. That's fact - if you've read TGH you know that some of the alternative universes Rand sees in the Portal Stone involve that marriage - and you'll see a similar thing from Egwene's PoV in TDR, if you'll excuse the minor spoiler.

 

When I say engage, I guess I mis-speak. They're one step from being engaged. It's definitely explicitly stated that they're "promised" and that they've done everything but make betrothal vows in front of the Wisdom.

 

As a matter of their relationship... I kinda agree. Jordan gets a lot better at romance, but I don't think as it's shown with Rand and Egwene this early is brilliant. Maybe it's intentional to signal they're not meant for each other. I don't know.

 

Also, Rand's "nobody leaves emond's field"... that was probably Rand's attempt at telling Egwene he wants her to stay. You've already observed that all the characters are chronically bad communicators!

 

But I like your blog, BTW, and I wasn't criticizing you. It's interesting to read, if I completely disagree with a lot of it. A lot of the time I want to scream at how wrong I think you are about x character. But that's the joy of fiction - we all have different views ;).

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I love the open mind part. I get sorta the opposite feeling here in this forum. It seems to me that if I don't see the book exactly like everyone else then I'm wrong. I need to toe the line, so to speak, and read the characters in line with their interpretations. For example, I see Perrin as a murderous loser. But because I don't take into account all those orphans he saves from a fire that one time in Book 33 I've got the completely wrong idea of him.

 

No. It has nothing to do with book 33 or future events, most people just read him very differently than you. You've taken to labeling our differing opinions as simply us having some vast store of future knowledge, but that's not it. Most everyone got a very different impression than you have at the time they read it.

 

That's not to say Perrin doesn't have an internal conflict in that area, but 'murderous loser'? Going back to that encounter with the Children of Light he was swept up in a tide of foreign emotions from the wolves, he saw Hopper's death through Hopper's eyes, through the eyes of all the wolves around, and their emotional response overwhelmed him. He had never had to deal with an onslaught of foreign emotions pouring directly into his mind before, he was unprepared for it. And if you can't read it from his reactions, his brooding, etc... he's pretty horrified by what happened to him and what he did. He's the guy who's always been aware of his size and strength and aware of the damage he could cause without even trying and so did things slow and methodically so as not to break anything. The whole incident scared him. The same goes for the more aggressive thoughts he's had at other times as well, all of it is strange and foreign to him.

 

This isn't future books or events I'm referencing, though it does come up again. That's how most people read it.

 

I'm enjoying your blogs. Keep going, please. But I've seen you mention something like this a few times and it isn't the case. You're welcome to read it as you want and come to your own opinions, but you're getting something different out of it than most, and it's not as simple as us having read more about the characters. We thought more info would help, and so we pointed ahead, but if we disagree with you on a character it's not just because of this future info. We just read it differently the first time around.

Edited by Agitel

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I just want to say that Gaiman is probably one of the most well respected fantasy/horror authors around. American Gods and Anansi Boys are seriously fantastic stuff, imo. So you can't really go wrong with him. Rothfuss is good too, and I recommend Clive Barker's Weaveworld, though he's not everyone's cup of tea. Oh, and GRRMartin's A Song of Ice and Fire is very well known and quite popular-- it focuses a lot on politics and various "morally gray" characters, so it could be right up your alley! Although... the violence is often horrific, so, idk.

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Calling Perrin a "murderous loser" is sure to cause issues, because even with only what you've read nearly all of us came to a very different conclusion about him, I think he was a terrified kid who just felt the death of a being that he is connected to at a very deep level and that was the spark that turned his fear into rage. If you back a terrified animal into a corner it will lash out viciously. A human being will do much the same, so what Perrin did is entirely natural and not murderous at all, he was a kid who was scared for his life against people who just seemed wrong to him, I'm sure you've had that feeling before, what would you do if an army of people who gave off that feeling were hunting for you and then killed your friend in front of you?

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I just want to say that Gaiman is probably one of the most well respected fantasy/horror authors around. American Gods and Anansi Boys are seriously fantastic stuff, imo. So you can't really go wrong with him. Rothfuss is good too, and I recommend Clive Barker's Weaveworld, though he's not everyone's cup of tea. Oh, and GRRMartin's A Song of Ice and Fire is very well known and quite popular-- it focuses a lot on politics and various "morally gray" characters, so it could be right up your alley! Although... the violence is often horrific, so, idk.

 

 

I don't know about Gaiman, Rothfuss, or Barker, but Always Sunny may want to avoid A Song of Ice and Fire for awhile since, while it's a wonderful series, it's another long multi-book series to get into. Martin's estimating it to be seven books long in the end; we'll have to see if he can hold to that.

Edited by Agitel

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