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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Into the heart he thrusts his sword...


herid
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Sounds good. Also I meant JordanCon. What were they thinking, naming DragonCon after Rand. Clearly this is the only use of the word Dragon in all of Fantasydom.

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Also, if neither Gawyn nor Moiraine kills Rand, then I have to write a Galad/Rahvin smutfic. I forgot who I made that bet with...

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Justice being found in water is an Excalibur parallel, that makes Excalibur a mixed-up combination of 2 or more swords, the same way King Arthur himself is. That's too much for a cameo. Besides which, Rand getting Justice is foreshadowed. I'm also not expecting it to do anything in the ending; it might, but the Excalibur parallel is enough reason by itself for it to be in the story, so there's no need for it to do more.

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Wasn't me... which is a bit disturbing, in and of itself.

I know, right? But I had you in mind when I offered that as my loss for the bet. It was someone here, I remember that - but I think the bet was lost in the interim period of the old forums.

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Justice being found in water is an Excalibur parallel

Justice was found underneath a statue.

 

Before the betting between Luckers and Terez escalates into something we don't want to visualize, I just want to say that I find it unlikely that Justice will be a deal breaker between Rand and Tuon. If Artur Hawkwing himself fighting for Rand at Falme didn't change their mindset, what good would his sword do?

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Justice being found in water is an Excalibur parallel

Justice was found underneath a statue.

 

But it was underneath a "submerged" statue yes? So technically still under water, my guess is it was underneath Hawkwing's memorial where Egwene and Perrin hid from the Whitecloaks in EotW.

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Justice was found underneath a statue.

The text says "submerged statue", and the Theoryland thread has a signing report with "In water, under a statue, not near Falme".

 

Also I remember the post where Terez made the bet involving Galad/Rhavin, but I also suspect it was lost in the transition period to the new forums. Oh well.

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Oh, okay. I was too lazy to look for my copy and the only word I remembered in regards to its location was "underneath a statue."

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Yup. I don't think the sword has any special meaning--and I certainly don't think Fortuona will get misty-eyed at a relic of Hawkwings.

well, well, this one I'm absolutely sure you are wrong about. there are very few aMoL predictions I would bet money on but this is definitely one of them. what do you then think of the dream of Rand splitting "wetlands in two with a sword"? and what about this:

And the Glory of the Light did shine upon him.

And the Peace of the Light did he give me.

Binding nations to him. Making one of many.

Yet the shards of hearts did give wounds.

And what was once did come again

—in fire and in storm

splitting all in twain.

For his peace . . .

—for his peace . . .

. . . was the peace . . .

. . . was the peace . . .

. . . of the sword .

And the Glory of the Light did shine upon him

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What about either of them? Metaphoric representations of Rand's military aspect is the most likely answer for both.

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What about either of them? Metaphoric representations of Rand's military aspect is the most likely answer for both.

metaphoric? how is a sword a good metaphor for his peace? or for his conquests for that matter? His chief conventional military force by far and away outweighing all the others in terms of numbers are the Aiel. they don't use swords. his other power source are the Asha'man. they don't use swords either. at least not a lot. Taim certainly doesn't think much of them. Rand's only attempt at using his other sword Callandor in battle was completely disastrous. so why a sword then?

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It's a fairly simple and common idea--peace enforced by violence, which is indeed what Rand brought upon the world prior to his jesusification. The sword may simply stem from it being Rand's weapon of choice--and thus a representation of his violence--or may have no more significance than the fact that the sword is the ultimate expression of violence in the Westlands, having no other purpose than being a weapon.

 

That's why its a metaphor, it represents Rand's violence, not an actual physical blade/blades.

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It's a fairly simple and common idea--peace enforced by violence, which is indeed what Rand brought upon the world prior to his jesusification. The sword may simply stem from it being Rand's weapon of choice--and thus a representation of his violence--or may have no more significance than the fact that the sword is the ultimate expression of violence in the Westlands, having no other purpose than being a weapon.

 

That's why its a metaphor, it represents Rand's violence, not an actual physical blade/blades.

hmm ok, I definitely don't buy the part of the sword being Rand's a weapon of choice and hence representing his violence. first, it doesn't really represent it as I said and second, it's not really his weapon of choice. Rand might not want to admit it but his weapon of choice is the One Power, not a sword as Bashere aptly demonstrates to him in LoC, Ch 1 when he almost kills him with a dagger. lastly, I find this this explanation too convoluted to be acceptable to a casual reader.

A sword being a metaphor for violence in general is better but I still don't find it appropriate when applied to Rand of all people. Let me elaborate on that. It may seem generically true that Rand conquered the wetlands by violence but it does not really stand up to close scrutiny.

First, he now has allegiance of all four borderland nations none of which have been conquered by violence. that's quite a lot of ground already. and even countries like Andor and Cairhien can not be considered conquered by Rand now. he renounced all rights to both of them. if they lend him their support it will be by choice not by force. so I find this metaphor pretty ill fitting too.

Edited by herid
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I can think of an alternative alternate explanation.

 

The heart in this case is the heart of Moridin, who was formerly known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark. Could kill him with Justice, and Logain might recover the sword. The death of Moridin could cause major issues with Shadowspawn, effectively "holding their hearts." Or something.

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@ Herid. Again, you are taking this way too literally. The peace of the sword line is a fourth age history, a poetic reference to the violence Rand used to bring peace. The phrase itself, 'peace of the sword' is not a phrase specific to Rand, it is a mere reference to the use of violence.

 

As for the dream--is the Wise One's dreaming of Rand using a sword to cut the Randlands in half any different to them Nicola speaking of Aviendha as a spear, or Elayne as a sword.

 

Neither actually relates to Rand using a sword, or even to Rand having a sword. It is simply a metaphoric reference to Rand's military nature. His inclination to use force to achieve his ends. Dreams represent things, rather than showing their nature, and in this case the symbolic representation of Rand's military side occured in the image of him with the sword.

 

As a side point, I disagree--the sword clearly is Rand's weapon of choice. Of choice being the significant factor, for instance in your example, ask why Bashere threw his knife in that scene? Because of Rand's focus on the sword. It is to its art that Rand dedicates himself, irrelevant of his use of the One Power.

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I can think of an alternative alternate explanation.

 

The heart in this case is the heart of Moridin, who was formerly known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark. Could kill him with Justice, and Logain might recover the sword. The death of Moridin could cause major issues with Shadowspawn, effectively "holding their hearts." Or something.

that's an interesting idea. something like this has been suggested already. I think someone mentioned that this might refer to Rand killing Ishy with Callandor at the end of TDR.

it would be kind of fitting if he kills Moridin in the same way. I would think that Callandor would fit better than Justice in this case. But I do find it pretty difficult to see chronologically. It certainly seems that the Peace of the Dragon will be made at the beginning of the LB so that they all can face the forces of the dark united. I find it difficult to believe that Moridin will be killed that early. he is the Shadow's champion so he ought to be the last man standing on their side I would think. He metions something along this lines to rand when they talk in tGS. and then there is a matter of his link with Rand and the likelihood of Rand dying the first of the two of them (and being resurrected later).

 

But who knows, maybe it can all fit together somehow anyway. maybe Rand will stab himself through the heart, lol, if he realizes that he is falling to the shadow somehow.

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@ Herid. Again, you are taking this way too literally. The peace of the sword line is a fourth age history, a poetic reference to the violence Rand used to bring peace. The phrase itself, 'peace of the sword' is not a phrase specific to Rand, it is a mere reference to the use of violence.

 

As for the dream--is the Wise One's dreaming of Rand using a sword to cut the Randlands in half any different to them Nicola speaking of Aviendha as a spear, or Elayne as a sword.

 

Neither actually relates to Rand using a sword, or even to Rand having a sword. It is simply a metaphoric reference to Rand's military nature. His inclination to use force to achieve his ends. Dreams represent things, rather than showing their nature, and in this case the symbolic representation of Rand's military side occured in the image of him with the sword.

 

As a side point, I disagree--the sword clearly is Rand's weapon of choice. Of choice being the significant factor, for instance in your example, ask why Bashere threw his knife in that scene? Because of Rand's focus on the sword. It is to its art that Rand dedicates himself, irrelevant of his use of the One Power.

ok I understand. but i still disagree though. there are just too many references to a sword so I think that a real one will be involved. beside those two examples there is also a matter of Rand slaying his people with a sword of peace and destroying them with a leaf. I believe that means that the Aiel will be a part of the Peace of the Dragon (unlike in Avi's visions) and will accept some new role for them as a people there as well.

Edited by herid
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The sword of peace/destroying with a leaf refers to the revelation that the Aiel used to follow the Way of the Leaf. Again, the sword is symbolic.

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The sword of peace/destroying with a leaf refers to the revelation that the Aiel used to follow the Way of the Leaf. Again, the sword is symbolic.

again, I disagree. we'll see.

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Quick question, what make you of Rand's new found 'comfort' (or something along those lines) for the sword justice that he expressed in ToM? Seeems like this should be on another thread, but then digressions are par for the course, no?

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Rand did it on purpose trying to force the fulfillment of the prophecy (which is a bad idea) and he rather smugly boasts about it (which is a bad sign too).
Neither of those to me do not necessarily make his interpretation a wrong one.

 

As long as an interpretation fits the context, to me it can be a "right" one.

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I can think of an alternative alternate explanation.

 

The heart in this case is the heart of Moridin, who was formerly known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark. Could kill him with Justice, and Logain might recover the sword. The death of Moridin could cause major issues with Shadowspawn, effectively "holding their hearts." Or something.

 

You are close to my line of reasoning on the prophecy. I think the reason it's hearts is because Rand and Moridin's battle will be one for their very souls. So essentially it's Rand vs. Moridin in a battle of willpower - thrusting his sword (willpower) into the heart. The second line, with hearts plural, is Rand + Moridin. The hand that follows after and holds Callandor between the two will be....

Edited by gambril
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