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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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Wait, NOVEMBER???!!!!! I'm the first person to say take your time and make sure the job is done, even if it takes additional book (I know, we who think that becoming a dying breed as others hunt us down and shoot with the silver bullets) but FREAKING NOVEMBER????!!!!! Come on! If November b/c of editing (which seems crazy if BS finishes by 01/2012; after all, 11 MONTH!) I would understand. But if it's because of some marketing thing (like holiday season) than it will be complete bulls$%t!!!!! FREAKING NOVEMBER????!!!!!! AAAGGRRRR!!!! I'm so angry I can't even type...I'm out!

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Two of Brandon's answers in the Reddit Q&A seem relevant to this thread:

VardaNienna: On your Twitter you said that the bar for AMoL is around 48%, I just want to thank you for putting the effort the book deserves into it, and I was just wondering how long approximately it will take to finish writing? I just don't like guesstimating because I'm usually way off. Absolutely love your work!

 

Brandon: For a lot of books, I go faster and faster as I approach the ending.

 

My goal for this one is to be done November 8th, when I go on tour. That means doing about 5% a week, or 15k words. At six days a week, that's very doable. Assuming I don't do any more day-long reddit AMAs...

 

Fast speed for me is 4k a day. Slow is about 1.5k.

MattSteelblade: Will A Memory of Light be released as an e-book at the same time as the hardcover next year, or will we have to wait?

 

Brandon: It's unlikely. Harriet has much worry about the ebook format, and the fact that we wouldn't have gotten #1 on the time list if we'd done the ebook release at the same time has her extra jumpy. She released the ebook earlier than expected by my request last time, and I think we'll get it even earlier this time. But it probably won't be at the same time.

 

(Though, it may depend on how the Times counts ebooks then. Harriet feels it's important for RJ's legacy that these last few books continue the string of being #1 hits.)

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I think it's really unfair if Harriet does delay the ebook release date. Many of the fans are unable to hold heavy, and they certainly are heavy, hardbacks. By refusing to release it the same day, she is doing two things - alienating a section of the fans, and secondly and this is the biggest one encouraging piracy. Sadly most books are on the net as copies within days. With this being the last one, and as it seems not allowing it to be released the same day, some will turn to illegal copies to read it. Plus is it really fair to not allow fans to see how it all wraps up, after all if we are waiting weeks or months it will be very hard to not find out how it finishes. Lets hope Harriet sees the light and allows the ebook to be released the same day.

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Wait, NOVEMBER???!!!!! I'm the first person to say take your time and make sure the job is done, even if it takes additional book (I know, we who think that becoming a dying breed as others hunt us down and shoot with the silver bullets) but FREAKING NOVEMBER????!!!!! Come on! If November b/c of editing (which seems crazy if BS finishes by 01/2012; after all, 11 MONTH!) I would understand. But if it's because of some marketing thing (like holiday season) than it will be complete bulls$%t!!!!! FREAKING NOVEMBER????!!!!!! AAAGGRRRR!!!! I'm so angry I can't even type...I'm out!

 

 

With all due respect, do you have any understanding about what goes into truly editing a book?

 

I'm just curious, but it seems you understanding that the first draft is essentially it, and that the editing process is just a bit of polish. You know, get rid of a couple of typos and you're done=no! Editing--propper editing--involves re-writes. Frequently scrapping everything you did before and replacing it. Its not to say that what you did before is meaningless--its the first step, the rough draft, the guide.

 

Eleven months of editing--after the quality failures that were tGS and TofM I can only hope for that.

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Well, some of that is production time. Elsewhere they've said they want to take six months for editing, so I'm guessing the projected date of November has more to do with optimal release dates for books than anything else. Probably the best we can hope for is late October.

 

Also, Brandon has noted before that Harriet is somewhat old-fashioned when it comes to ebooks; RJ was even more old-fashioned, and opposed ebooks altogether. But one thing I overheard this past JordanCon is that the ebook numbers are for some reason not counted along with hardcovers for sales figures; that was one of Harriet's qualms about releasing the ebook with the hardcover.

Edited by Terez
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Thankfully, since the release of ToM the guys and gals over at NYT got their act together and at least they have a separate table for electronic sales now. That's not as big a trophy as the regular table - the one Harriet has her mind set on dominating again (and well she should; RJ deserves as much) - but it is something.

 

Brandon mentions that last time, had they released the ebook simultaneously, ToM wouldn't have been a #1 NYT bestseller. I wonder how they came to that conclusion. Did they simply subtract the ebook's first-week sales from the HC's?

 

Either way, can someone please educate me on the NYT bestsellers list? I want to know how often they compile a new list and how long ToM (and former installments) stayed at the top of the list. That should indicate a safe time-frame for the ebook's release, from Harriet's point of view.

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Well, some of that is production time. Elsewhere they've said they want to take six months for editing, so I'm guessing the projected date of November has more to do with optimal release dates for books than anything else. Probably the best we can hope for is late October.

 

As I recall tGS got boosted from november to october for this reason... or am I misremembering?

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Well, some of that is production time. Elsewhere they've said they want to take six months for editing, so I'm guessing the projected date of November has more to do with optimal release dates for books than anything else. Probably the best we can hope for is late October.

As I recall tGS got boosted from november to october for this reason... or am I misremembering?

Yeah, but I think the difference was only a week or two. I think they shoot for November knowing they can make us a little happier when the time comes by announcing an 'early' release date.

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Okay, I did some digging. NYT lists are published weekly. At the time ToM was published NYT had only one list that it seems appropriate for: 'HARDCOVER FICTION' (caps on the NYT webpage). On that list, ToM scored 1st, 4th, 7th, 7th, 11th, 15th and then 16th (top 15 appear to have the greatest significance) on the weeks following its release. That's a month and a half on the main list.

 

On 1/30/11 (ouch, why do I conform to the stupid American way?), though, NYT came up with two new lists: 'COMBINED PRINT & E-BOOK FICTION' and 'E-Book Fiction'. The HC list still runs, although it now appears lower on their webpage than the combined list.

 

In summery, I have no idea how publishers translate this to determine prestige. I'd guess that tradition is key, so if AMoL comes out late October we might hope for a Christmas ebook release, otherwise it's mid-January or later.

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Well, I'm not in the publishing business in any way, that's for sure, but 11 months seems a bit much. What I do know is that if the project is important (be it a book or a new tech product) the QA/QC can be done in a very quick way (put enough resources to it and it can be done well and in timely manner). Personally, I think that November (if it's going to be November) is for the marketing reasons, which I understand, I really do. But if it so, just come out and say so (sure there will be complaining and whatnot but at least we know the truth). Profits is what move the planet, I get it and agree with it (to some degree). Even BS said about e-book and the #1 on the time's list so obviously it's important .

Wait, NOVEMBER???!!!!! I'm the first person to say take your time and make sure the job is done, even if it takes additional book (I know, we who think that becoming a dying breed as others hunt us down and shoot with the silver bullets) but FREAKING NOVEMBER????!!!!! Come on! If November b/c of editing (which seems crazy if BS finishes by 01/2012; after all, 11 MONTH!) I would understand. But if it's because of some marketing thing (like holiday season) than it will be complete bulls$%t!!!!! FREAKING NOVEMBER????!!!!!! AAAGGRRRR!!!! I'm so angry I can't even type...I'm out!

 

 

With all due respect, do you have any understanding about what goes into truly editing a book?

 

I'm just curious, but it seems you understanding that the first draft is essentially it, and that the editing process is just a bit of polish. You know, get rid of a couple of typos and you're done=no! Editing--propper editing--involves re-writes. Frequently scrapping everything you did before and replacing it. Its not to say that what you did before is meaningless--its the first step, the rough draft, the guide.

 

Eleven months of editing--after the quality failures that were tGS and TofM I can only hope for that.

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Well, I'm not in the publishing business in any way, that's for sure, but 11 months seems a bit much. What I do know is that if the project is important (be it a book or a new tech product) the QA/QC can be done in a very quick way (put enough resources to it and it can be done well and in timely manner). Personally, I think that November (if it's going to be November) is for the marketing reasons, which I understand, I really do. But if it so, just come out and say so (sure there will be complaining and whatnot but at least we know the truth). Profits is what move the planet, I get it and agree with it (to some degree). Even BS said about e-book and the #1 on the time's list so obviously it's important .

 

A distinction should be made here between the editing done by a publisher (or rather the publishing editor) and that done by the writer. All of your comments are true, and the publication side is both fast tract and potentially well done for all that.

 

But writing is a process of several drafts. This is what has been lacking, and I will be harsh to Brandon here--it has been this aspect which has been missing. We all watch the progress bar, and think that is the 'writing', but all we are seeing is the first draft. He then speaks of his edit period--which based on TofM lasted a month or so, and then it was sent off to Moshe [brandon's editor], Team Jordan and the Beta Readers [the publishers editing phase]--which by the way was about two weeks.

 

That's 2 drafts by Brandon, after which the editors publishing phase would commence. RJ would standardly do between 8 and 10 before the publishing phase. The difference shows.

 

This is my greatest, my gravest, and my most unrelenting criticism of Brandon. His writing methodology may have worked for Mistborn, but they were far smaller, and by far less complex. That he thought he could achieve what RJ did with less time and less work... well the product speaks for itself, and for all that I know the demands of the fandom were such that speedy delivery was important, I also hold that he accepted responsibility for this when he took on the job, so I have no sympathy left.

 

But as for the question at hand, after the initial writing, about a month per draft, and then allowing for the publishing draft time, and them production time. Yes, eleven months is about appropriate.

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That's 2 drafts by Brandon, after which the editors publishing phase would commence. RJ would standardly do between 8 and 10 before the publishing phase. The difference shows.

 

This is my greatest, my gravest, and my most unrelenting criticism of Brandon. His writing methodology may have worked for Mistborn, but they were far smaller, and by far less complex. That he thought he could achieve what RJ did with less time and less work... well the product speaks for itself, and for all that I know the demands of the fandom were such that speedy delivery was important, I also hold that he accepted responsibility for this when he took on the job, so I have no sympathy left.

 

This is why I am always so shocked when people rate TGS and ToM towards the top of their WoT rankings. The fact that the books were rushed shows very clearly in the quality of the product. Do people just gloss over that when making their decision as to where these two stand?

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That's 2 drafts by Brandon, after which the editors publishing phase would commence. RJ would standardly do between 8 and 10 before the publishing phase. The difference shows.

 

This is my greatest, my gravest, and my most unrelenting criticism of Brandon. His writing methodology may have worked for Mistborn, but they were far smaller, and by far less complex. That he thought he could achieve what RJ did with less time and less work... well the product speaks for itself, and for all that I know the demands of the fandom were such that speedy delivery was important, I also hold that he accepted responsibility for this when he took on the job, so I have no sympathy left.

 

This is why I am always so shocked when people rate TGS and ToM towards the top of their WoT rankings. The fact that the books were rushed shows very clearly in the quality of the product. Do people just gloss over that when making their decision as to where these two stand?

 

 

 

I don't read very much fiction, so I'm not an expert. Still, while I admit that both tGS and ToM felt.. off.. I don't care that much. The thing is, so much happen in those books that have been expected for so long, and there are so many great scenes, that I'd still rate the books very high. Personally, I find the first six to be the best six, but other than those, tGS was much better than 7 through 10, perhaps even better than KoD, while ToM was still better than 7-10.

 

It's just that, I find the plot much more important than the polished, perfected feeling of reading RJ. The characters might have felt a little less real, but I could live with that.

 

I'd like the editing to be short. It wouldn't matter that much to me, and I simply cannot stand to wait any longer.

 

Seriously, is there like some chemical that can make me go to sleep for a year or so? What did Cinderella use?

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Poison it is, then!

 

Haha, yeah, Tornerose in Norwegian. I'll be the first to admit, my knowledge of Disney-movies is lacking at best.

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That's 2 drafts by Brandon, after which the editors publishing phase would commence. RJ would standardly do between 8 and 10 before the publishing phase. The difference shows.

 

This is my greatest, my gravest, and my most unrelenting criticism of Brandon. His writing methodology may have worked for Mistborn, but they were far smaller, and by far less complex. That he thought he could achieve what RJ did with less time and less work... well the product speaks for itself, and for all that I know the demands of the fandom were such that speedy delivery was important, I also hold that he accepted responsibility for this when he took on the job, so I have no sympathy left.

 

This is why I am always so shocked when people rate TGS and ToM towards the top of their WoT rankings. The fact that the books were rushed shows very clearly in the quality of the product. Do people just gloss over that when making their decision as to where these two stand?

 

I think most people value the plot revelations contained within those books, but the problem is that that will not last--it is RJ's polish, his character work, and the complex subtlty of his worldbuilding that lend his books their re-readability, and it is that which is ultimately the source of the success of the Wheel--not that it is just a good story, but that it is a story you can read time and again, and still enjoy, and still gain something new out of, and it is all these things which are lacking in Brandon's.

 

I do not believe they will stand the test of time.

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I think most people value the plot revelations contained within those books, but the problem is that that will not last--it is RJ's polish, his character work, and the complex subtlty of his worldbuilding that lend his books their re-readability, and it is that which is ultimately the source of the success of the Wheel--not that it is just a good story, but that it is a story you can read time and again, and still enjoy, and still gain something new out of, and it is all these things which are lacking in Brandon's.

 

I do not believe they will stand the test of time.

 

Sure they will - insofar as they're the ending of the story and contain some of the better paced parts of the entire series.

 

Plenty of people who can be bothered to re-read some of the story arcs that RJ gave us will be able to happily breeze through the more punchy BS books, particularly given that they are the necessary end to the whole WoT tale.

 

E.g Why people would bother re-reading the all the circus show/rescue of faile/salidar arcs again - but wouldnt bother re-reading the defense of the white tower from the seanchan etc or the killing of messana/dreamspike. - doesnt make any sense to me. Same goes for re-reading all the copious room and dress descriptions :rolleyes:

 

Is BS a better writer than RJ? is he as subtle? is there layer upon layer of mystery, forshadowing and intrigue you can pick out from the last 3 books as opposed to the previous 11? No... but that doesnt mean they're not emminently re-readable. Just for completley different reasons.

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I think most people value the plot revelations contained within those books, but the problem is that that will not last--it is RJ's polish, his character work, and the complex subtlty of his worldbuilding that lend his books their re-readability, and it is that which is ultimately the source of the success of the Wheel--not that it is just a good story, but that it is a story you can read time and again, and still enjoy, and still gain something new out of, and it is all these things which are lacking in Brandon's.

 

I do not believe they will stand the test of time.

 

Sure they will - insofar as they're the ending of the story and contain some of the better paced parts of the entire series.

Faster-paced does not equal better-paced. A lot of scenes were really awkward and bare because the pace was too fast; also, some parts of TGS and TOM dragged like the worst parts of the slow books. Some parts are painful to read. Also, I agree with Luckers that more effort is needed to make these great books. The editing process was incredibly rushed with TOM, and the book suffered for it. There are continuity errors that can't really be fixed - things that could have been avoided with a little more care. I feel like, since we were so incredibly supportive with TGS, biting our tongues for the most part, that the problems in TGS just got worse with TOM because they weren't perceived as important.

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Faster-paced does not equal better-paced. A lot of scenes were really awkward and bare because the pace was too fast; also, some parts of TGS and TOM dragged like the worst parts of the slow books. Some parts are painful to read. Also, I agree with Luckers that more effort is needed to make these great books. The editing process was incredibly rushed with TOM, and the book suffered for it. There are continuity errors that can't really be fixed - things that could have been avoided with a little more care. I feel like, since we were so incredibly supportive with TGS, biting our tongues for the most part, that the problems in TGS just got worse with TOM because they weren't perceived as important.

 

How effectively paced the books were (its not like RJ was any good it either :biggrin::rolleyes: ) and how disasterous any errors were - is really quite subjective and a matter of opinion.

 

The final 3 books were never going to be what you wanted them to be... just as there is large parts of the first 11 books which many of us would have wished different.

 

You may disagree - which is fine - but i dont think any of the "errors" or pacing issues in the last 3 books makes them any less readable than many of RJ's own pacing issues/editing issues found within some of the first 11 books.

 

Personally, I think many of the people who struggle through the ...poorly... edited and often laborious first 11 books will have no problems struggling through the remaining 3, regardless of whether others might think there are errors or the last 3 are too fast paced.

 

IMO - the entire series (much as i love it) is riddled with flaws.... BS's set of flaws are just a different set from RJ's...(and the editing issue has existed from tEotW) and i'm sure that these flaws (or a completely different set of flaws) would've been extant regardless of who they had finish WoT. Therefore I dont see there being a huge impact on readability of the last 3 over the first 11.

 

 

bearing in mind, I'm really only commenting on the re-readability of the last 3 books... not on whether BS's writing is great, or whether he's doing a good job ending the series etc.

Edited by Dewairah
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Faster-paced does not equal better-paced. A lot of scenes were really awkward and bare because the pace was too fast; also, some parts of TGS and TOM dragged like the worst parts of the slow books. Some parts are painful to read. Also, I agree with Luckers that more effort is needed to make these great books. The editing process was incredibly rushed with TOM, and the book suffered for it. There are continuity errors that can't really be fixed - things that could have been avoided with a little more care. I feel like, since we were so incredibly supportive with TGS, biting our tongues for the most part, that the problems in TGS just got worse with TOM because they weren't perceived as important.

 

How effectively paced the books were (its not like RJ was any good it either :biggrin::rolleyes: ) and how disasterous any errors were - is really quite subjective and a matter of opinion.

The writing style, maybe. Other things, not so much. I agree that RJ has made errors before, but what we're doing here is justifying the extra effort Team Jordan has decided to put into AMOL. It's needed.

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I've been spending a lot of time on the forums lately, and I get to thinking; there's to much stuff. I would like two more books, one which comes out tomorrow and one which I can wait another week or so for.

 

But seriously, am I the only one feeling this book is going to be overstuffed with awesome stuff happening and little else, due to lack of room? Awesome needs buildup!

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I've been spending a lot of time on the forums lately, and I get to thinking; there's to much stuff. I would like two more books, one which comes out tomorrow and one which I can wait another week or so for.

 

But seriously, am I the only one feeling this book is going to be overstuffed with awesome stuff happening and little else, due to lack of room? Awesome needs buildup!

 

Of course it is... RJ's hundreds of sub-plots and hundreds of characters (many of which were never necessary) have left BS withouth many graceful options to adequately resolve the series in a mere 3 books. Particularly since the final books were never going to be the size of tGH or tSR.

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I've been spending a lot of time on the forums lately, and I get to thinking; there's to much stuff. I would like two more books, one which comes out tomorrow and one which I can wait another week or so for.

 

But seriously, am I the only one feeling this book is going to be overstuffed with awesome stuff happening and little else, due to lack of room? Awesome needs buildup!

 

Of course it is... RJ's hundreds of sub-plots and hundreds of characters (many of which were never necessary) have left BS withouth many graceful options to adequately resolve the series in a mere 3 books. Particularly since the final books were never going to be the size of tGH or tSR.

The main thing I think should have been different...I think that the original plans for TOM were chopped off at the end to avoid a cliffhanger ending, and I wanted the cliffhanger. We won't know that for sure until AMOL, but there are a few things that indicate they were going to try to fit the resolution of the Black Tower at the end of TOM, which I get the impression will mostly happen before Merrilor on the part of Pevara, Androl, Logain, and Co. Merrilor was intended to be the cliffhanger, but not exactly in the way it was done (with Rand's dream). Brandon said at one point that the book was supposed to end with a reunion of all major plotlines in one place (he said that in 2009), but he said later it didn't quite make it to that point (which presumably involves Mat's arrival). It could be that they wanted to avoid too much happiness at the ending, but I'm not so sure about the 'it's not going to fit' line. I think it probably had more to do with a deadline, and the cliffhanger having been risky in the first place.

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