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To Un-make the Bore


Kestrel
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Generally we have been hearing about Rand re-sealing the bore. In other words, the suggestion is that Rand will put a permanent patch on it. But the Ages turn in a circle. In the AoL, there was no bore at all until Meirin/Lanfear & company made it, not even an old one with an ancient seal.

 

Re-sealing the bore is not the same thing as un-making it. If the Ages are to continue turning in their wheel, Rand will have to actually un-make the bore, not just fill it with saidin/saidar cement.

 

Now I'm wondering: In order to un-make the bore, will Rand need to know how it was made?

 

I ran across this:

 

Tamyrlin: Is Lanfear the only surviving person that is aware of how the Bore was created?

Maria: I don’t know. Mesaana or Demandred might know.

 

Rand/Lews Therin doesn't know how the bore was made. Mesaana is out of the picture, and Demandred wouldn't ever consider helping Rand.

 

So will Rand need Cyndane/Lanfear's cooperation and assistance to win the Last Battle? Does Rand's dream sequence at the end of ToM foreshadow this?

 

Alternate ending scenario:

This next idea would permit Rand to re-seal the bore instead of un-making it, while still maintaining continuity between the Ages. The outcome of the Last Battle could cause the Wheel of Time to stop turning and recycling itself, and instead set Time on a straight-line path headed for an infinite and unknowable future.

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I'm a supporter of that 'Alternate ending scenario'.

 

 

Anyhow, there are also other ages than just 2nd and 3rd ages. So even if Rand only patches the bore up for now, who's to say that it won't be properly fixed during the ages that come after.

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Resealing the Bore... the Hundred Weaves, anyone?

I'll pass.

 

 

 

Lanfear obviously knows how it was made, and her meeting with Rand at the end of TOM might indicate a rescue mission on Rand's part, one that will lead to Lanfear handing Rand a "Sealing the Bore for Dummies" guidebook (or, just explaining what to do). But even without Lanfear, I think that Rand likely has a good idea of how the Bore works. I doubt that he would have been able to patch it in the first place if he didn't already understand the properties of the Bore. Lanfear might clarify, but I doubt she'll need to explain from scratch.

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He did succeed in patching it in the AoL, true, so I agree Rand/Lews Therin knew enough to "plug" the bore.

And the repair lasted for a while. Yet another patch in this age, I believe, would still be a patch. If done with saidin/saidar it might last longer, but patches, like any repair, are still subject to eventual breakdown. Re-reading The Strike at Shayol Ghul shows that Lews Therin's solution was always to implant seals, not undo the damage. The great sa'angreals weren't going to be used to undo the damage either, just to erect a barrier until a better solution could be found.

 

Even with a durable patch, there's still the problem of restoring the situation at the beginning of the AoL, when the Dark Lord's tomb was intact with no bore and no patches or seals. If the Second Age is to come around again, the permanent solution has to be more than repairing the damage.

 

The damage itself needs to be undone. The weaves used to open the bore need to be either unwoven (if they still exist) or woven in reverse. It's not something that Rand figured out during the AoL, nor something that he will have much uninterrupted free time to study during the Last Battle. And that's why I'm thinking Lanfear will play a part in the solution.

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I've seen it posted before, but I don't think that Rand or any Third Ager will patch the Bore. I think that the Pattern will reweave itself. The challenge that Rand and the others have is to get everything out of the way of the Pattern so it can repair itself. The includes breaking the seals, pushing the Dark One back, and potentially finding some way to speed up the Pattern's regeneration capabilities.

 

I do not support the alternate scenario because it defeats the purpose of Rand's healing in Veins of Gold. He came to grips with direct reincarnation and the apparent lack of free will. To destroy cyclical time would make that realization of no import.

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Resealing the Bore... the Hundred Weaves, anyone?

I'll pass.

 

 

 

Lanfear obviously knows how it was made, and her meeting with Rand at the end of TOM might indicate a rescue mission on Rand's part, one that will lead to Lanfear handing Rand a "Sealing the Bore for Dummies" guidebook (or, just explaining what to do). But even without Lanfear, I think that Rand likely has a good idea of how the Bore works. I doubt that he would have been able to patch it in the first place if he didn't already understand the properties of the Bore. Lanfear might clarify, but I doubt she'll need to explain from scratch.

 

you might not be far off with that line though....why else show Rand her suffering...

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I do not support the alternate scenario because it defeats the purpose of Rand's healing in Veins of Gold. He came to grips with direct reincarnation and the apparent lack of free will. To destroy cyclical time would make that realization of no import.

I don't quite feel the same way as you on this one. Or perhaps I just don't quite understand your position.

 

We live in a Linear Time world yet plenty of people here still believe in direct reincarnation, including the majority of the population on the Indian sub-continent. As for man's apparent lack of Free Will, I've gotten into plenty of deep discussions about the subject. They center around Predestination vs. Free Will of humans who live within the boundaries of Linear Time, in the presence of an Omniscient (all-knowing) God who lives outside of and is not bound by Linear Time. Cyclical Time is not required for either belief.

 

Therefore I can't see how Rand's realizations would become pointless if Cyclical Time was converted to Linear Time.

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I do not support the alternate scenario because it defeats the purpose of Rand's healing in Veins of Gold. He came to grips with direct reincarnation and the apparent lack of free will. To destroy cyclical time would make that realization of no import.

 

I don't quite feel the same way as you on this one. Or perhaps I just don't quite understand your position.

 

We live in a Linear Time world yet plenty of people here still believe in direct reincarnation, including the majority of the population on the Indian sub-continent. As for man's apparent lack of Free Will, I've gotten into plenty of deep discussions about the subject. They center around Predestination vs. Free Will of humans who live within the boundaries of Linear Time, in the presence of an Omniscient (all-knowing) God who lives outside of and is not bound by Linear Time. Cyclical Time is not required for either belief.

 

Therefore I can't see how Rand's realizations would become pointless if Cyclical Time was converted to Linear Time.

 

The combination of cyclical time and the predestination is what makes the realization that much harder for Rand and that much more powerful.

 

For example, those who believe in reincarnation in this world do not believe they merely come back as the same soul, destined to perform the same basic role. All beliefs about reincarnation that I know of believe that you can improve your station through action. If you perform poorly, you are a worm or bird in your next life. If you perform admirably, you are elevated to a higher caste or plane of existence. Rand cannot take solace in that. His soul is The Dragon. His only avenue of escape is to unmake the Pattern, get balefired which would unmake the Pattern probably, or turn to the Dark One, which might unmake the Pattern.

 

On the other end, predestination allows escape. Yes, you are fated to perform certain actions but eventually, it ends. You are not reborn as the same soul every time. Rand is. He is Lews Therin. He is the next Dragon, Frankie McDragon. It is only the combination of being reincarnated as the same guy performing the same tasks in the same age and having that awareness that makes the choice so hard. It gives you the feeling that nothing changes. You are a puppet on a string and you will be a puppet on a string for infinity. However, Rand's revelation is that despite that, he has reason to live and that is love and compassion. Even in the face of everything repeating, love and compassion is worth more and presents an avenue for escape outside of destroying creation.

 

Now your counter argument may be well, combine linear time with reincarnation AND predestination to a certain fate and then you have the same thing. First, I would want to know what is the difference between that and cyclical time? Why would the author change the metaphysics of the world to do this? Here are potential answers to that question and why it cheapens Rand's revelation.

 

Maybe RJ wanted this to be a story of humanity bucking fate. Of course, that would be a direct rejection of the power of Rand's revelation. Rand's revelation was that despite being fated to be The Dragon, despite my choices being Pepsi v. Coke, life is still awesome because of love and compassion. Take away fate, and all of a sudden love and compassion are great, but not really as great because they no longer are the necessity for accepting fate.

 

Maybe RJ wanted this to be a story humanity earning freedom from the Creator (God) and authority. This would be even more peculiar. The Creator in Randland is very hands off already. The Pattern is generally forceful only in producing ta'veren. Most of the unimportant threads in the Pattern have some freedom of movement anyway. This is a story about Rand and other ta'veren struggling with fate. Saying at the end, hey, everyone is free from the Pattern just kills all of those lessons they have learned.

 

It would make little sense in a literary sense. There is little pointing to a struggle to prevent the recurrence of Ages. In fact, the only side truly concerned with that is the Shadow. They want the Pattern remade. It's all they can talk about. To suddenly turn 180 degree and say, no wait, the Light wants that too would be crazy.

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This is way out there, and I know that nothing thus far has suggested this, but if we are talking about resealing the bore or even just patching it up once again there will be need of certain amount of skill, I'm thinking, is the blacksmith somehow the key to this?

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I think there would have been a bit of foreshadowing if a blacksmith was going to be needed to fix the whole thing.(No pun intended)It isn't as if there is an actual hole that everyone can see. I think it would be great if the apparently unimportant/useless 100 weaves were needed to seal the bore. A very nice way to pass down an important bit of knowledge. Although I think it is very unlikely that, that is what they are for.

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The Aiel have reservations about killing Blacksmith's, possibly as a hangover from being the "servant's of all"'s servants.

 

Just a thought. Perhaps the genetic memory is in there somewhere, knowing that the key is in the making. Or maybe the Cuendillar seals have something to do with it, wonder if there was any blacksmith involvement there?

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Min has been doing Rand's homework for him. She, the dumb bimbo, has been reading the philosophy books given to her by the crazy old man who got torn to bits by the gohlem. The mindless twit will figure out what Rand needs to do.

 

Could a really big batch of balefire be part of the solution? It brought Mat and Avi back to life when Rand blasted Rahvin. The Dark One doesn't like anyone channeling around Shayol Ghul. Maybe Min will tell Rand that he has to direct all of his available balefire into the depths of Shayol Ghul. When he does, a new Dragonmount will replace Shayol Ghul and thus plug the hole until the pattern can fix itself.

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Min has been doing Rand's homework for him. She, the dumb bimbo, has been reading the philosophy books given to her by the crazy old man who got torn to bits by the gohlem. The mindless twit will figure out what Rand needs to do.

 

Could a really big batch of balefire be part of the solution? It brought Mat and Avi back to life when Rand blasted Rahvin. The Dark One doesn't like anyone channeling around Shayol Ghul. Maybe Min will tell Rand that he has to direct all of his available balefire into the depths of Shayol Ghul. When he does, a new Dragonmount will replace Shayol Ghul and thus plug the hole until the pattern can fix itself.

Whoa calm down gramps :ph34r: Min might be rough around the edges and its a strech to think that she is a great thinker of the time but there is no indication that she is stupid or slow. Now balefire destroys, not makes moutains. Maybe I'm missing some nefarious sarcasm but .... :huh:

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Dragonmount wasn't created by balefire. RJ was very specific about that. Dragonmount was created by a massive saidin surge accented by lightning, but it wasn't balefire. If Lews Therin HAD created Dragonmount by balefiring himself (assuming that was even possible), he wouldn't have been able to be reborn at all.

 

Now the use of balefire at the Last Battle DOES present some interesting implications. Specifically, I've been thinking about the "Twice to Live and Twice to Die" prophecy regarding the Dragon Reborn. This could refer to:

 

-- 1) The Dragon's first life was Lews Therin. LTT died and is now alive again as Rand al'Thor, or...

-- 2) The prophecy refers to Rand al'Thor living and dying twice. If so...

-------- a) Rand lives and dies in the "real" world, then lives and dies the again in Tel'aran'rhiod, or

-------- b) Rand lives and dies in the "real" world but his killer gets balefired, bringing Rand back.

 

OK, that was a nice exercise in straying off-topic.

 

Getting back to the original question, how was the Bore made? And if the pattern can re-weave itself, why is the bore still open?

 

Admittedly, the seals are perhaps blocking it and preventing that natural re-weaving. But if the problem was merely rubble from the seals, you'd think the bore would be CLOSING as the seals crumbled, not opening wider. Therefore, something else has to be maintaining that opening. I suggest that it is the Dark Lord holding the bore open (duh), and in order to un-make it Rand will need to not only break the seals, he will also have to push the Dark Lord back through the bore. This could be accomplished by tossing Padan Fain down the bore to keep the Dark Lord busy. Rand himself may have to jump in also.

 

OK, it's apparent Rand is going to have his hands full, and mighty powerful things are going to happen pretty fast. So when, pray tell, will Rand have time to figure out which threads to yank to start the bore collapsing? Will Meirin have a conversion moment, or do we have hints of a different solution?

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Dragonmount wasn't created by balefire. RJ was very specific about that. Dragonmount was created by a massive saidin surge accented by lightning, but it wasn't balefire. If Lews Therin HAD created Dragonmount by balefiring himself (assuming that was even possible), he wouldn't have been able to be reborn at all.

 

Now the use of balefire at the Last Battle DOES present some interesting implications. Specifically, I've been thinking about the "Twice to Live and Twice to Die" prophecy regarding the Dragon Reborn. This could refer to:

 

-- 1) The Dragon's first life was Lews Therin. LTT died and is now alive again as Rand al'Thor, or...

-- 2) The prophecy refers to Rand al'Thor living and dying twice. If so...

-------- a) Rand lives and dies in the "real" world, then lives and dies the again in Tel'aran'rhiod, or

-------- b) Rand lives and dies in the "real" world but his killer gets balefired, bringing Rand back.

 

OK, that was a nice exercise in straying off-topic.

 

Getting back to the original question, how was the Bore made? And if the pattern can re-weave itself, why is the bore still open?

 

Admittedly, the seals are perhaps blocking it and preventing that natural re-weaving. But if the problem was merely rubble from the seals, you'd think the bore would be CLOSING as the seals crumbled, not opening wider. Therefore, something else has to be maintaining that opening. I suggest that it is the Dark Lord holding the bore open (duh), and in order to un-make it Rand will need to not only break the seals, he will also have to push the Dark Lord back through the bore. This could be accomplished by tossing Padan Fain down the bore to keep the Dark Lord busy. Rand himself may have to jump in also.

 

OK, it's apparent Rand is going to have his hands full, and mighty powerful things are going to happen pretty fast. So when, pray tell, will Rand have time to figure out which threads to yank to start the bore collapsing? Will Meirin have a conversion moment, or do we have hints of a different solution?

 

Why would LTT balefiring himself prevent him from being reborn?

Edited by Master Ablar
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Min has been doing Rand's homework for him. She, the dumb bimbo, has been reading the philosophy books given to her by the crazy old man who got torn to bits by the gohlem. The mindless twit will figure out what Rand needs to do.

 

Could a really big batch of balefire be part of the solution? It brought Mat and Avi back to life when Rand blasted Rahvin. The Dark One doesn't like anyone channeling around Shayol Ghul. Maybe Min will tell Rand that he has to direct all of his available balefire into the depths of Shayol Ghul. When he does, a new Dragonmount will replace Shayol Ghul and thus plug the hole until the pattern can fix itself.

Whoa calm down gramps :ph34r: Min might be rough around the edges and its a strech to think that she is a great thinker of the time but there is no indication that she is stupid or slow. Now balefire destroys, not makes moutains. Maybe I'm missing some nefarious sarcasm but .... :huh:

 

 

 

Yes, I was being silly. Min must have a very strong mind in order to help Rand with the philosophy book contents. The bimbo and twit stuff refers to her portrayal as a love sick mistress. I'll be disappointed if AMoL leaves us with that impression of her and does not give her the credit that she truly deserves.

 

I was thinking about balefire having an affect on the bore itself. If you zap a person, their existence is reversed. When the black sister was blazing away at Nyn in Tanchico the walls ceased to exist. If you could score a direct hit on the bore somehow, maybe it would cease to exist or even have it's existence reversed to before it was created?

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Why would LTT balefiring himself prevent him from being reborn?

 

LTT didn't balefire himself. RJ was specifically asked that question at signings, and was quite insistent that LTT's death and Dragonmount's creation were not by balefire.

 

Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.

 

Since LTT was the Dragon he was able to pull in a fantastic amount of power, and we saw the result.

 

Getting on to your question, actually there has been some speculation (unproven, as far as I know) that a balefired person might eventually be reborn.

 

However, this passage from Lord of Chaos strongly suggests that a death by Balefire is an irreversable final death:

 

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME... DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

 

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

Edited by Kestrel
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I was thinking about balefire having an affect on the bore itself. If you zap a person, their existence is reversed. When the black sister was blazing away at Nyn in Tanchico the walls ceased to exist. If you could score a direct hit on the bore somehow, maybe it would cease to exist or even have it's existence reversed to before it was created?

The Bore is not a "something." It is actually an absence of something, an absence of the barrier around the Dark Lord's prison. Scoring a direct hit on the bore, with balefire or anything else, would be like trying to score a direct hit on a donut hole.

 

Now if we still assume the Bore is a "something" which could be hit, we still have the fact that the bore has been open for thousands of years. Even the most powerful channeler would go back in time for less than an hour when deleting any object with balefire.

 

Brandon: Rand balefires Rahvin as hardcore as he could and Rand is one of the most powerful people to live and he got us, what have you determined, from the lightning killing Mat until balefire killed Rahvin, I’d guess fifteen minutes.

 

Matt: Well, he at least got us fifteen minutes. We don’t know how far back, we just know up to that moment.

 

Brandon: Well, we do know because if it had been too much further than that we would have noticed a lot of discrepancies in the Pattern from things he’d done…

 

Matt: Let’s say thirty minutes to an hour, at the most

 

Brandon: Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100 fold…let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city.

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On the subject of free will vs. predestination (also called determinism) Daniel Dennett has an interesting lecture on the subject available

. In this lecture he outlies the case that determinism (or predestination) and free will are not mutualy exclusive. Basicly, knowing what choices you will make does not negate the fact that you made them.
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Why would LTT balefiring himself prevent him from being reborn?

 

LTT didn't balefire himself. RJ was specifically asked that question at signings, and was quite insistent that LTT's death and Dragonmount's creation were not by balefire.

 

Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.

 

Since LTT was the Dragon he was able to pull in a fantastic amount of power, and we saw the result.

 

Getting on to your question, actually there has been some speculation (unproven, as far as I know) that a balefired person might eventually be reborn.

 

However, this passage from Lord of Chaos strongly suggests that a death by Balefire is an irreversable final death:

 

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME... DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

 

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

 

I know he didn't balefire himself. It was just hypothetical.

 

I asked that because I'm fairly certain that, while the DO cannot bring a balefired soul back, that soul can still be reincarnated in a later age.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think the key thing to remember here is that the bore is just that, a 'bore' through something. It is a hole drilled through the pattern and into the DO's prison which was created outside the pattern at the moment of creation (if I remember correctly). Either something is holding it open, whether it is the DO or the weaves that Lanfear used, it's held open by actual damage to the pattern itself, or it is simply a hole that needs filled.

The problem that Rand has to overcome is discovering which of these is fact and then countering it.

My guess is that it is being held open by Lanfear's weaves that would need undone (clearing away the rubble) and then fill the bore with the pattern itself (similar to filling any hole someone might dig) or maybe the pattern would right itself like a cave-in of sorts.

 

That's my best guess.

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It bothers me that people don't understand that there are 7 spokes to the Wheel. – 7 Ages.

 

Rand doesn't have to make the Bore the same as it was at the first turning.

He just has to seal the Dark One up.

 

In every Age a Dark One is freed from his Prison; so as long as he doesn't remove the Dark One completely, it doesn't matter how he seals him up.

He doesn't need to make it the same as the first time around when the Creator had sealed the Dark One up.

 

He doesn't even need to seal up the same Dark One. I believe Fain will be the Dark One for the next Age.

The Dark One wants to die, he wants to kill the serpent ending time itself as was explained very early on.

I believe the Dark one is the Serpent, which is why it's always eating its own tail - trying to commit suicide.

Rand is the only one that can do the job.

Which would explain why when Rand's soul was turned to the Shadow in previous turnings that the Wheel wasn't destroyed, and instead we had a Draw.

Edited by DocBean
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Why would LTT balefiring himself prevent him from being reborn?

 

LTT didn't balefire himself. RJ was specifically asked that question at signings, and was quite insistent that LTT's death and Dragonmount's creation were not by balefire.

 

Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.

 

Since LTT was the Dragon he was able to pull in a fantastic amount of power, and we saw the result.

 

Getting on to your question, actually there has been some speculation (unproven, as far as I know) that a balefired person might eventually be reborn.

 

However, this passage from Lord of Chaos strongly suggests that a death by Balefire is an irreversable final death:

 

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME... DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

 

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

 

 

This doesn't mean they won't be reborn. This just means that the DO doesn't have the ability to travel in time, and he needs to catch their souls on the instant of their death to be able to use them. Balefire kills them in the past.

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