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Thoughts on Logain


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At the end of ToM,we see that Camlyn is burning.Will Logain and his loyal followers along with the Band save it from total destruction?What will be his glory as forseen by Min?

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Min said it would be glory such as few men had ever dreamed. Saving Caemlyn seems a bit too pedestrian to me. IMO, Logain will take out Taim and be named the M'Hael of the Asha'man, and it so doing be publically ackowledged (after some urging from Rand at Merrilor) as the equal of the Amyrlin Seat. In Wotland that would certainly be something few men would ever have thought possible.

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Min said it would be glory such as few men had ever dreamed. Saving Caemlyn seems a bit too pedestrian to me. IMO, Logain will take out Taim and be named the M'Hael of the Asha'man, and it so doing be publically ackowledged (after some urging from Rand at Merrilor) as the equal of the Amyrlin Seat. In Wotland that would certainly be something few men would ever have thought possible.

 

Agreed, although I think that Logain is going to earn his acknowledgment as equal to the amrylin. Also I think that he is basically going to lead the BT to great heights after the Last Battle, and seeing as he could live a long time (he's pretty strong after all) by then end of his life he will have indeed attained a glory such as few men could dream of. He'll probably be a major player for the light forces at the Last Battle too. That should be enough for Min's viewing.

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There is also eg's dream of him steping over Randss corpse and sitting on a throne. So I have always he might play some part in Rand's death. I dont think he is evil but he may benifit from it in some way.

Edited by trench
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Min said it would be glory such as few men had ever dreamed. Saving Caemlyn seems a bit too pedestrian to me. IMO, Logain will take out Taim and be named the M'Hael of the Asha'man, and it so doing be publically ackowledged (after some urging from Rand at Merrilor) as the equal of the Amyrlin Seat. In Wotland that would certainly be something few men would ever have thought possible.

 

Agreed, although I think that Logain is going to earn his acknowledgment as equal to the amrylin. Also I think that he is basically going to lead the BT to great heights after the Last Battle, and seeing as he could live a long time (he's pretty strong after all) by then end of his life he will have indeed attained a glory such as few men could dream of. He'll probably be a major player for the light forces at the Last Battle too. That should be enough for Min's viewing.

 

On a similar line of thinking, to paraphrase Elaida's Foretelling the Black Tower is going to be rent in blood and fire. It is highly possible the confrontation between the respective Logain and Taim factions will destroy much of the Black Tower and its grounds. This combined with Elayne's less than accomodating feelings towards the Asha'man may lead to the male channelers needing a new home.

 

 

In the Post TG world that again paraphrasing a Foretelling (this one by Nicola) will have the Servants (Aes Sedai) balanced by the guardians (Asha'man), what better place for them then in the twin tower already started by Elaida. Egwene has in some of her POV's wondered to herself what to do with the monstrosity. What better irony than for the Tower begun out of a Red's arrogance to be the home for the legitimate recognized Asha'man?

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I like the theory of Logain becoming the male equivalen of the amyrlin. However, what about Narishma? Was he supposed to be the one who 'followed after' since he drew Callandor? I kind of wonder what we have in story for Narishma.

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I also like the thought of Logain standing as an equal to the Amyrlin. That is why I also like the idea of a Twin towers in Tar Valon setup. With Traveling now so widespread the Andor to Tar Valon distance does not mean much, but if the towers stood side by side it has a certain symbolism to it. Not to mention the proximity will allow for daily common interaction. Eating meals together, novices attending classes together, and simply working and living side by side. The theme throughout the series is that the greatest feats were accomplished when men and women worked together with saidar and saidin. What better way to begin to bridge a 3000 year gap?

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There is also eg's dream of him steping over Randss corpse and sitting on a throne. So I have always he might play some part in Rand's death. I dont think he is evil but he may benifit from it in some way.

 

Ah, thing is, in that Dream Egwene said that after Logain stepped over Rand, Rands face shattered or some such.

 

I took it as something like Logain will find Demandred posing as Rand and kick the guys ass. Im way more down for Logain vs Demandred than Logain vs Taim. Taim would kick Logains ass in my oppinion.

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I took it as something like Logain will find Demandred posing as Rand and kick the guys ass. Im way more down for Logain vs Demandred than Logain vs Taim. Taim would kick Logains ass in my oppinion.

 

If Logain was linked up with his AS, Taim would not kick his ass. It would be the other way around. In my View that is the entire reason for him bonding 2, where the others bonded only 1. Logain is only a little less than Rand, Taim is even closer to Rand in the Power, but with a circle with 2 AS, Logain should more than match Taim.

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I took it as something like Logain will find Demandred posing as Rand and kick the guys ass. Im way more down for Logain vs Demandred than Logain vs Taim. Taim would kick Logains ass in my oppinion.

 

If Logain was linked up with his AS, Taim would not kick his ass. It would be the other way around. In my View that is the entire reason for him bonding 2, where the others bonded only 1. Logain is only a little less than Rand, Taim is even closer to Rand in the Power, but with a circle with 2 AS, Logain should more than match Taim.

 

Because there is this serious reason why Logain can bring support and Taim cant, right? Yeah Im totally with you on that one... Taim has more cronies, more knowledge, less morals, and isnt bound to anyone. All Taim has to do is bring in his Ashaman and the fifty one Compulsion bound Aes Sedai, have the Aes Sedai Compelled to stand in front so they are in danger and can channel lethal weaves... bye bye Logain.

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I like the theory of Logain becoming the male equivalen of the amyrlin. However, what about Narishma? Was he supposed to be the one who 'followed after' since he drew Callandor? I kind of wonder what we have in story for Narishma.

 

"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

Rand thinks he has fulfilled this prophecy by sticking Callandor back into the Stone in Tear and later sending Narishma for it. I think it's a red herring. I like Narishma, but he doesn't seem like someone capable of leading, while Logain has been set up for the position. I think this prophecy will be fulfilled after the Last Battle. He will stab Callandor back in the Stone before he "goes away" to remind everyone of the Dragon's Peace and Logain will pull it out to become the leader of the Asha'man.

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I like the theory of Logain becoming the male equivalen of the amyrlin. However, what about Narishma? Was he supposed to be the one who 'followed after' since he drew Callandor? I kind of wonder what we have in story for Narishma.

 

"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

 

Rand thinks he has fulfilled this prophecy by sticking Callandor back into the Stone in Tear and later sending Narishma for it. I think it's a red herring. I like Narishma, but he doesn't seem like someone capable of leading, while Logain has been set up for the position. I think this prophecy will be fulfilled after the Last Battle. He will stab Callandor back in the Stone before he "goes away" to remind everyone of the Dragon's Peace and Logain will pull it out to become the leader of the Asha'man.

I like your overall sense for the prophecy, but I really doubt that Rand is going to drive it into the Heart of the Stone again. It seems more likely that "heart" is going to turn out to be a metaphor (whereas "the sword of justice" turned out not be a metaphor, but a literal sword named "Justice").

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What I dont understand is why Moridin has been so bothered about the Choeden Kal and not Callandor. Could it be that it requires a certain Talent just to use Callandor? Another thing that makes me wonder about it is the last line. "What hand can grasp that fearful blade?" Makes me think not just anyone can use it. Of course, the prophecies need to be fulfilled in a certain way, but why have Narishma and Rand been the only two people to ever touch it, why doesnt anyone ever think about it anymore apart from Rand?

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He might stab it anywhere, but why not the Stone? It'll maintain the Sword in the Stone mythology.

I was thinking that the "stabbing" will also be metaphorical and related to Rand's death at Shayol Ghul. "Into the heart he stabs the sword" refers to his death to defeat the DO, where he dies using Callandor to achieve victory, "to hold their hearts" by establishing his memory among all the survivors of TG and helping them to keep the Dragon's Peace through their common affection for his memory -- and affection that they didn't have for the man himself, obviously. Logain would then draw the sword out after, meaning that after Rand has died using it Logain takes it up and becomes the true leader of the male channelers (stepping over Rand's corpse to sit in the throne). Even if Logain has defeated Taim at this point and is nominal head of the Asha'man, he won't be the head of male channelers until Rand is gone. But like everyone else this is at least 1/3 reasoning and 2/3 speculation.

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Ah, Okay. I was thinking along the lines of after the Last Battle. This comes from my believe that Rand will die, return and then win the LB. So he's still around holding Callandor. It's possible he could die while winning the LB in which case the prophecy could mean stabbing himself/the DO/the Bore/something else.

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I think Logain's glory will definitely be tied to taking out Taim, and leading the way post Last Battle.

It's possible Rand's body on a black stone is the same stone that Taim uses when addressing the Ashamen.

 

Rand's death might happen at the Black Tower, and Logain will be the one to save the Day.

Along with that Red Aes Sedai - can't think of her name.

 

 

I also posted a long time ago that I didn't think the Fearful Blade prophesy had been fulfilled. Rand just thought he had fulfilled it.

I love Narishma, and can't wait to see what he does in the next book, but I have a feeling he's not the one to follow after.

 

I've always interpreted the stabbing of the blade into the heart was actually killing the Dark One.

I think Logain might have to take it on after that.

Rand will be busy sealing Fain up in the Bore so that there is a Dark One to release in the next age.

Edited by DocBean
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In the Post TG world that again paraphrasing a Foretelling (this one by Nicola) will have the Servants (Aes Sedai) balanced by the guardians (Asha'man), what better place for them then in the twin tower already started by Elaida. Egwene has in some of her POV's wondered to herself what to do with the monstrosity. What better irony than for the Tower begun out of a Red's arrogance to be the home for the legitimate recognized Asha'man?

 

I've thought that ever since she said it should be equal or greater in size to the white tower itself actually. "Well, that's where the Ashaman will be one day"

 

And the Ancient symbol of the Aes'Sedai will be complete again. Black and White, rather than just the white teardrop.

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In the Post TG world that again paraphrasing a Foretelling (this one by Nicola) will have the Servants (Aes Sedai) balanced by the guardians (Asha'man), what better place for them then in the twin tower already started by Elaida. Egwene has in some of her POV's wondered to herself what to do with the monstrosity. What better irony than for the Tower begun out of a Red's arrogance to be the home for the legitimate recognized Asha'man?

 

I've thought that ever since she said it should be equal or greater in size to the white tower itself actually. "Well, that's where the Ashaman will be one day"

 

And the Ancient symbol of the Aes'Sedai will be complete again. Black and White, rather than just the white teardrop.

 

I did the same thing when I first read about Elaida's palace. Glad I am not the only one. As I said before I just love the symbolism of the two towers so near one another equal in size and splendor.

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I don't think that all the hatred and prejudice between aes sedai and asha'man is going to just dissapear like that. The aes sedai seem to see male channelers as the next worst thing to the DO. And even Androl doesn't have a good opinion of aes sedai so I think the generel opinion of the asha'man isn't going to be to favorable to the aes sedai. Logain certainly doesn't seem to. Besides I personally don't want the asha'man to become such an add-on to the aes sedai. Having the asha'man right there next to the aes sedai in Tar Valon is going to give quite a bit of possibility to the aes sedai to meddle in and influence asha'man affairs and I don't think Logain would accept that.

I think it's best to let the BT fly of it's own wings. And I highly doubt that the aes sedai would accept the asha'man as their equals, or the M'hael as the equal of the Amrylin.

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I don't think that all the hatred and prejudice between aes sedai and asha'man is going to just dissapear like that. The aes sedai seem to see male channelers as the next worst thing to the DO. And even Androl doesn't have a good opinion of aes sedai so I think the generel opinion of the asha'man isn't going to be to favorable to the aes sedai. Logain certainly doesn't seem to. Besides I personally don't want the asha'man to become such an add-on to the aes sedai. Having the asha'man right there next to the aes sedai in Tar Valon is going to give quite a bit of possibility to the aes sedai to meddle in and influence asha'man affairs and I don't think Logain would accept that.

I think it's best to let the BT fly of it's own wings. And I highly doubt that the aes sedai would accept the asha'man as their equals, or the M'hael as the equal of the Amrylin.

 

 

That is a somewhat one sided argument. A Twin Towers arrangement would give the Asha'man legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Over time the close living arrangements will help to soothe and erase the old tensions and prejudices. Besides such close proximity would give the two sides a greater chance to keep tabs on one another. Yes the Aes Sedai will want to take a hand in Asha'man affairs, but it also will give Logain a chance for the same. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. In this case literally. We know with the turning of the Wheel men and women wielding the Power will eventually merge into one institution. This would just be the start of the process.

 

I also believe the closing of the rift would go more quickly and smoothly than many think. Already in the series RJ has made a point of emphasis on how surprisingly well Asha'man and Aes Sedai when forced together have gotten along. On top of that the Queen Elayne has made it clear that she considers the Asha'man little more than squatters on her land. A home rightfully theirs in Tar Valon would in my opinion be welcomed by the Asha'man.

 

Also we know Logain and the Asha'man will play a large role in getting the world through TG. To pull an example from real world history let's look at post world war two. The setting up od the United Nations, the redrawing of much of the map. The Soviet Union was almost universally loathed and distrusted by its wartime allies. They were however, granted a seat at the table in the division of power in the new world that emerged from the war. They were granted veto power on the UN council, control of East Germany/East Berlin, and allowed to dominate and retain control over much of the territory in Easterm Europe that they seized from the Nazis. While Logain is no Stalin, he will no doubt be viewed in a similar light. If he like Stalin helps save the world from a common enemy that virtually destroys the world as it was known, it would stand to reason that he like Stalin will be granted a major slice of the pie in determining how the world will be rebuilt, and how power will be divided up.

Edited by Elbub
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I don't think that all the hatred and prejudice between aes sedai and asha'man is going to just dissapear like that. The aes sedai seem to see male channelers as the next worst thing to the DO. And even Androl doesn't have a good opinion of aes sedai so I think the generel opinion of the asha'man isn't going to be to favorable to the aes sedai. Logain certainly doesn't seem to. Besides I personally don't want the asha'man to become such an add-on to the aes sedai. Having the asha'man right there next to the aes sedai in Tar Valon is going to give quite a bit of possibility to the aes sedai to meddle in and influence asha'man affairs and I don't think Logain would accept that.

I think it's best to let the BT fly of it's own wings. And I highly doubt that the aes sedai would accept the asha'man as their equals, or the M'hael as the equal of the Amrylin.

 

 

That is a somewhat one sided argument. A Twin Towers arrangement would give the Asha'man legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Over time the close living arrangements will help to soothe and erase the old tensions and prejudices. Besides such close proximity would give the two sides a greater chance to keep tabs on one another. Yes the Aes Sedai will want to take a hand in Asha'man affairs, but it also will give Logain a chance for the same. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. In this case literally. We know with the turning of the Wheel men and women wielding the Power will eventually merge into one institution. This would just be the start of the process.

 

I also believe the closing of the rift would go more quickly and smoothly than many think. Already in the series RJ has made a point of emphasis on how surprisingly well Asha'man and Aes Sedai when forced together have gotten along. On top of that the Queen Elayne has made it clear that she considers the Asha'man little more than squatters on her land. A home rightfully theirs in Tar Valon would in my opinion be welcomed by the Asha'man.

 

Also we know Logain and the Asha'man will play a large role in getting the world through TG. To pull an example from real world history let's look at post world war two. The setting up od the United Nations, the redrawing of much of the map. The Soviet Union was almost universally loathed and distrusted by its wartime allies. They were however, granted a seat at the table in the division of power in the new world that emerged from the war. They were granted veto power on the UN council, control of East Germany/East Berlin, and allowed to dominate and retain control over much of the territory in Easterm Europe that they seized from the Nazis. While Logain is no Stalin, he will no doubt be viewed in a similar light. If he like Stalin helps save the world from a common enemy that virtually destroys the world as it was known, it would stand to reason that he like Stalin will be granted a major slice of the pie in determining how the world will be rebuilt, and how power will be divided up.

 

Well to each their opinion I guess, but I'm not convinced. I think the asha'man will want as little to do with the aes sedai as possible. And Elayne has already said that her owning of the BT, or the land it's on, is all talk. If Logain said enough to Elayne and declared that she has no right over the BT, then Elayne could stomp around all she wanted there would be nothing she could do about it. Taim can't do that because of Rand and because it would be best not to have any conflict between the BT and Andor.

 

The aes sedai and asha'man working together relatively well are all bonded too each other, and not really voluntarily.

 

I'm not saying that the aes sedai and the asha'man could not eventually work together but I think that this is too much too soon, it doesn't fit with their opinion of each other. A home in Tar Valon would seem rather suspicious to the asha'man. With how fast the BT is growing, I really think it's there to stay. Androl even gave a little foreshadowing thinking about how the streets whispered of the greatness to come, or something like that. A Twin Tower arrangement as you say might give the asha'man legitimacy but it would also be thanks to the aes sedai and the asha'man probably wouldn't be viewed as equals to the aes sedai.

 

And come on, 2 towers in Tar Valon? That's just going to screw up the skyline!

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I don't think that all the hatred and prejudice between aes sedai and asha'man is going to just dissapear like that. The aes sedai seem to see male channelers as the next worst thing to the DO. And even Androl doesn't have a good opinion of aes sedai so I think the generel opinion of the asha'man isn't going to be to favorable to the aes sedai. Logain certainly doesn't seem to. Besides I personally don't want the asha'man to become such an add-on to the aes sedai. Having the asha'man right there next to the aes sedai in Tar Valon is going to give quite a bit of possibility to the aes sedai to meddle in and influence asha'man affairs and I don't think Logain would accept that.

I think it's best to let the BT fly of it's own wings. And I highly doubt that the aes sedai would accept the asha'man as their equals, or the M'hael as the equal of the Amrylin.

 

 

That is a somewhat one sided argument. A Twin Towers arrangement would give the Asha'man legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Over time the close living arrangements will help to soothe and erase the old tensions and prejudices. Besides such close proximity would give the two sides a greater chance to keep tabs on one another. Yes the Aes Sedai will want to take a hand in Asha'man affairs, but it also will give Logain a chance for the same. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. In this case literally. We know with the turning of the Wheel men and women wielding the Power will eventually merge into one institution. This would just be the start of the process.

 

I also believe the closing of the rift would go more quickly and smoothly than many think. Already in the series RJ has made a point of emphasis on how surprisingly well Asha'man and Aes Sedai when forced together have gotten along. On top of that the Queen Elayne has made it clear that she considers the Asha'man little more than squatters on her land. A home rightfully theirs in Tar Valon would in my opinion be welcomed by the Asha'man.

 

Also we know Logain and the Asha'man will play a large role in getting the world through TG. To pull an example from real world history let's look at post world war two. The setting up od the United Nations, the redrawing of much of the map. The Soviet Union was almost universally loathed and distrusted by its wartime allies. They were however, granted a seat at the table in the division of power in the new world that emerged from the war. They were granted veto power on the UN council, control of East Germany/East Berlin, and allowed to dominate and retain control over much of the territory in Easterm Europe that they seized from the Nazis. While Logain is no Stalin, he will no doubt be viewed in a similar light. If he like Stalin helps save the world from a common enemy that virtually destroys the world as it was known, it would stand to reason that he like Stalin will be granted a major slice of the pie in determining how the world will be rebuilt, and how power will be divided up.

 

Well to each their opinion I guess, but I'm not convinced. I think the asha'man will want as little to do with the aes sedai as possible. And Elayne has already said that her owning of the BT, or the land it's on, is all talk. If Logain said enough to Elayne and declared that she has no right over the BT, then Elayne could stomp around all she wanted there would be nothing she could do about it. Taim can't do that because of Rand and because it would be best not to have any conflict between the BT and Andor.

 

The aes sedai and asha'man working together relatively well are all bonded too each other, and not really voluntarily.

 

I'm not saying that the aes sedai and the asha'man could not eventually work together but I think that this is too much too soon, it doesn't fit with their opinion of each other. A home in Tar Valon would seem rather suspicious to the asha'man. With how fast the BT is growing, I really think it's there to stay. Androl even gave a little foreshadowing thinking about how the streets whispered of the greatness to come, or something like that. A Twin Tower arrangement as you say might give the asha'man legitimacy but it would also be thanks to the aes sedai and the asha'man probably wouldn't be viewed as equals to the aes sedai.

 

And come on, 2 towers in Tar Valon? That's just going to screw up the skyline!

 

there's a famous saying ' It's nice to want things but look at reality first'

 

There will be no black tower. The black tower will be destroyed within the first few chapters of the next book. The ashaman will take up residence alongside the aes sedai in tar valon in elaida's palace once the battle is over. There is no allying with andor and working alone amongst themselves. You need to let go of that particular train of thought you have. Aes sedai and the ashaman have already bonded as it is.

 

 

Coming back to the topic, Logain's glory is so bloody obvious it's a suprise RJ didnt practically give it away. He is going to assume the leadership of all male chanellers following rand's retirement after the last battle. And funnily enough, it's the type of glory he always wanted. To be a leader among men and not a follower. Ofcourse he will be sharing power with Egwene

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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