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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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In my first re-read of the series (book 5 so far), I came across what I thought was an interesting tidbit following Rand vs. Asmodean's battle in Rhuidean.

 

1) The both travel to just outside the city, they don't travel in to it.

 

The Shadow Rising (Book 4) p971. Lanfear said to Rand and Asmodean, "You have made a

thorough job of it. Can you feel the traces? This place was shielded in some way. You did

not leave enough for me to say how."

 

2) Rhuidean had a shield over it, a near dome around the entire city.

 

p 976. a black metal shaft like a spear standing

upright, improbably balanced on the pile.

 

3) A black metal shaft in a square filled with Angreal... hmm...

 

It would seem to me that this would be a dreamspike, or at least something extremely similar. If it is a dreamspike, well then we should have been prepared to see them in TOM. This would mean a dreamspike with Slayer, one at the Black Tower and one in the hands of the good guys? If so, is there a way that the good guys can use this angreal to an advantage?

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Didn't Moiraine collect up all those *angreal? They'd have been taken to the WT, I believe. And also, didn't Elayne get drawn to the Tower through Need when she was looking in T'A'R for something that would help Rand with the WT?

 

(Feeling too lazy to find the detailed refs.. sorry.. :tongue: )

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Moraine got dragged in to the door frame with Lanfear while in Carhien, if i remember correctly. I am not sure where the angreal all are.

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If it was no longer shielded, that would imply the "dreamspike" was destroyed anyway no?

Yes, I think that to

- Either moirane took it with her to Caihrien

- Or Rand/Asmo destroyed it along with half the city.

 

More probably Rand/Asmo because IIRC they are still in Rhuidean when Aviendha makes a gateway to Seanchan to get away from Rand.

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They may have destroyed it ot with all that uncontrolled/undirected Power flying around they may have accedentially triggered the "off" switch. Either way it would have been succeptable because it was in the real world & not TAR.

 

Didn't Rand Stash all of those in Cairhien under a ward after Mory "died"?

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Was a nice find, definately implies that there was either a dreamspike in Rhiudian or something similar enough.

However, I think it was probably destroyed in Rand's battle with Asmodean. The way the dome vanished without them 'turning off' the dreamspike, combined with the massive amounts of power that were flying about, implies that it was destroyed probably with a lot of other goodies there.

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dont think it can be a dream spike, didnt they travel into rhuidein (unless it was inactive)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rand and Asmodean Skimmed back and forth from Rhuidean to Alcar Dal. So it couldn't have been a dreamspike, unless it was inactive somehow.

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They may have destroyed it ot with all that uncontrolled/undirected Power flying around they may have accedentially triggered the "off" switch. Either way it would have been succeptable because it was in the real world & not TAR.

 

Didn't Rand Stash all of those in Cairhien under a ward after Mory "died"?

 

I'm on a re-read right now, just finished FOH about 3 weeks ago, I don't remember reading what happened to the wagons of Rhuidean loot other than the Red Doorway melting... Anyone know for sure?

Edited by Avalonjohn44
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dont think it can be a dream spike, didnt they travel into rhuidein (unless it was inactive)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rand and Asmodean Skimmed back and forth from Rhuidean to Alcar Dal. So it couldn't have been a dreamspike, unless it was inactive somehow.

 

No, they quite clearly skimmed to literally just outside the fog of Rhuidean. They battled in the city, and after the battle and the fog starts to dissipate, that's when Lanfear appears, apparently able to travel inside of the city now.

 

In TOM, Perrin's only means of stopping the dreamspike is to destroy it in the nightmare lava, however, he has to do this because he can't manipulate ter'angreal. One could assume that a channeler, whether on purpose or on accident, if they knew how could turn off a dream spike. I say this because, unless Slayer brought the dreamspike to the Black Tower through the dream world, how else might it have gotten there? The obvious quick way to move it would be to Travel with it de-activated. It would also seem that Taim is using the dreamspike, and so far we have no knowledge of him being able to command the world of dreams.

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dont think it can be a dream spike, didnt they travel into rhuidein (unless it was inactive)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rand and Asmodean Skimmed back and forth from Rhuidean to Alcar Dal. So it couldn't have been a dreamspike, unless it was inactive somehow.

 

No, they quite clearly skimmed to literally just outside the fog of Rhuidean. They battled in the city, and after the battle and the fog starts to dissipate, that's when Lanfear appears, apparently able to travel inside of the city now.

 

In TOM, Perrin's only means of stopping the dreamspike is to destroy it in the nightmare lava, however, he has to do this because he can't manipulate ter'angreal. One could assume that a channeler, whether on purpose or on accident, if they knew how could turn off a dream spike. I say this because, unless Slayer brought the dreamspike to the Black Tower through the dream world, how else might it have gotten there? The obvious quick way to move it would be to Travel with it de-activated. It would also seem that Taim is using the dreamspike, and so far we have no knowledge of him being able to command the world of dreams.

Unless Rhuidean is an absolutely massive city I don't think it would matter. The Dreamspike appears to cover a huge area, so I would think that the area outside of Rhuidean would still be covered.

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Plus; the shielding was deactivated during the battle. A dreamspike only exists in TAR so unless they managed to destroy something in TAR from the waking world...

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i belive that the metal spire or what ever it was that was standing on its end was a shock lance. and as far as the wagons of items of power, i think some one on here has said that they are in a warehouse in carihen warded by rand i cant remember who said that it might of been luckers and it probally was lol

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Dreamspike is a nice theory, but there are some problems that have already been stated:

1. The dreamspike shield cannot be seen in the real world, unlike the "fog" around Rhuidean.

2. Dreamspike shield would likely be much larger than Rhuidean (unless you can calibrate it - who knows, anything is possible).

 

Also, Lanfear wasn't sure how Rhuidean was shielded. She would have recognized a Dreamspike.

 

I'm pretty sure all the Rhuidean *angreal are either still in Rhuidean or stored in a top secret warehouse in Cairhien (Indiana Jones-style).

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It probably wasn't a dreamspike but it might have been something similar made to work in the real world.

 

I suspect though size isn't an issue, how could anyone use it as a personal shield (to prevent allies or enemies from dropping in on your palace) if it has to cover such a massive area? I think that it was set to its maximum size to hold perrin in place no matter how far he tried to run.

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It probably wasn't a dreamspike but it might have been something similar made to work in the real world.

 

I suspect though size isn't an issue, how could anyone use it as a personal shield (to prevent allies or enemies from dropping in on your palace) if it has to cover such a massive area? I think that it was set to its maximum size to hold perrin in place no matter how far he tried to run.

 

I believe a dreamspike can work in the real world or in T'A'R.

 

Remember when Moridin shows off his dreamspike to Graendal?

He pushes a button and it disappears. He then asks her if she knows where to find it, and she says she does.

 

I think the Forsaken figure it's safer there, then in the real world, but it could work in either place.

I think the button he pushed to make it disappear made it show up in the dreamworld.

Maybe it just activated it, but it's possible that the thing is active all the time.

 

If it's active all the time then I wonder how Graendal got there without it keeping her from traveling there.

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It probably wasn't a dreamspike but it might have been something similar made to work in the real world.

 

I suspect though size isn't an issue, how could anyone use it as a personal shield (to prevent allies or enemies from dropping in on your palace) if it has to cover such a massive area? I think that it was set to its maximum size to hold perrin in place no matter how far he tried to run.

 

I believe a dreamspike can work in the real world or in T'A'R.

 

Plus we know that it works in the real world because the Asha'man can't travel out of the Black Tower.

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Maybe it was a Dreamspike but the fact that its in the real world might be why Rhuidean isnt in T'A'R? If this was the case I would say it might be quite an unusual thing to use it for and could explain why Lanfear didnt recognise it.

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Mightn't the reason that Lanfear didn't recognize how the city was shielded be that in the AOL they didn't have just one way of shielding cities (dreamspikes) but numerous different ones with similar effects? In that case, yes, it might be a dreamspike, but Lanfear wouldn't be able to tell whether it was a dreamspike or some other AOL artifact -- but then again if there were numerous methods of shielding, then we're opening the door to a slew of other options.

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Good find, but I don't think it was a dreamspike, as others have pointed out, for several reasons.

 

1) Rand and Asmo skim right to the fog.

2) The Shield is destroyed during the battle, and nothing seemed to affect TAR, where the spike would be.

3) The size of the object you mention doesn't match the descriptions of the dramspikes, which were on a shelf when Graendal saw them, and fit in Perrin's pouch.

 

I do think some kind of shield/ward was in effect, probably inverted so no 3rd ager could detect it.

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Plus we know that it works in the real world because the Asha'man can't travel out of the Black Tower.

 

I'm saying the dreamspike could theoretically exist in the Real World. We know the effect works in the real world.

I'm thinking that the Spike is hidden in the dreamworld more often then not, but the spike in Rhuidden could be proof that you can use it in the real world.

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It certainly makes sense to have the ability to hide it in the dream world, because most people can't get there. And since, Moridin showed it off to Graendal we know it can exist in the real world too.

 

<quote>

Good find, but I don't think it was a dreamspike, as others have pointed out, for several reasons.

 

1) Rand and Asmo skim right to the fog.

2) The Shield is destroyed during the battle, and nothing seemed to affect TAR, where the spike would be.

3) The size of the object you mention doesn't match the descriptions of the dramspikes, which were on a shelf when Graendal saw them, and fit in Perrin's pouch.

 

I do think some kind of shield/ward was in effect, probably inverted so no 3rd ager could detect it. </quote>

 

for #1, exactly they skim right TO the fog, not into the fog, or in the city, for some reason... they don't/can't skim in to the fog.

for #2, the spike can be in the real world too

for #3, "Like a spear" doesn't mean size of a spear, though it could be. Size like many things could probably be influenced in TAR, i.e. perrin could change its shape, there is also nothing to say that it looks different in TAR than in the real world.

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