Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

How to Fix Tuon


  

93 members have voted

  1. 1. How should Tuon be fixed?

    • Kill her
    • Leash her
    • Have Mat sweet-talk her
    • Have Rand humiliate her
    • Tuon doesn't need fixing
    • Other


Recommended Posts

It seems that a lot of people on these forums really hate Egwene. She may be somewhat arrogant now, but I think she has to be a forceful personality to get the fractious Aes Sedai to do anything constructive. Even though she may grate on some people at the moment, I don't think she's anywhere near as bad as Tuon. Here are some good reasons to hate Tuon.

 

  1. Tuon participates in the breaking of damane. This is not nice at all.
  2. She gave Suroth to the Deathwatch Guard to "serve them as they wish". In my opinion, this means that the DW Guard raped Suroth. Even though Suroth was a traitor, and deserved some nasty punishments, this isn't nice at all.
  3. I think she killed some of her siblings to become the DotNM, although the Seanchan do seem to do this in their royal family anyway.

 

My way of fixing Tuon is to leash her, as publicly and in as humiliating a way as possible. It would be fair turnabout.

Edited by Lord D
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 88
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Tuon is a stubbornly idiotic person who denies obvious truths such as Shadowspawn even though Mat repeatedly tells her and has proven to her time after time that he is a man of his word (She only admits it when Tylee finally presents her the heads of trollocs). Secondly, and far worse, she denies the humanity of damane even though she herself has the ability to channel! She is a foolish and cruel ruler and she exemplifies all that is despicable about the Seanchan.

 

And yeah, while I dislike Egwene, she comes second after Tuon in terms of stubborn idiocy/denial of the obvious and arrogance. Tuon honestly expects the Dragon Reborn, savior of the world and the Light, to kneel to her without the slightest doubt... A bloated ego doesn't even begin to describe it. I hope to god that the new humble Rand does NOT submit to her wishes even if it's just to appease her. She needs to be taught a lesson, preferably shown the kind of pain an a'dam can give first-hand and kept leashed for a month or so. Maybe that'll get her head on straight.

Edited by Ashandarei
Link to post
Share on other sites

I on the other hand like Tuon.

 

She's the way she is because the way their society works. It's cultural differences. What appears cruel to us is everyday thing to them. That's the way their world works. Ours wasn't much different not too long ago.

 

Take slavery for example. A hundred or so years ago it was completely normal to have the "inferior" black people as slaves. It wasn't seen as something to frown upon, it was sign of wealth and completely normal. These days we see slavery as a horrible thing, yet it still exists in some cultures and in those cultures it's still completely normal.

Link to post
Share on other sites

if you are christian and you are talking to a buddhist about religion, there are going to be differences. especially if you were born christian and he born buddhist, the views are 100% opposite. just about the only thing you could agree on is the core principals of every religion, be good to others, dont hurt or kill or cheat or be proud. well the same for them. just because you have never seen a big foot does that mean it doesnt exist? to tuon no one has seen shadow spawn in a so long that they are more than myths. remember mat didnt believe in trollocs at first, neither did rand. they were childrens stories told to frighten kids into going to sleep (a bit counterproductive i think) but then he sees one and it all comes crashing down. it wouldnt have mattered how much moiraine told him they existed, if they werent chasing him, he wouldnt have believed. the same with tuon. in her society and religion, it is OK for you to enslave someone, it is also necessary for the dragon reborn to kneel to the crystal throne. does that mean it is true? not at all. she doesnt need to be fixed she just needs to experience a little bit more.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I on the other hand like Tuon.

 

She's the way she is because the way their society works. It's cultural differences. What appears cruel to us is everyday thing to them. That's the way their world works. Ours wasn't much different not too long ago.

 

Take slavery for example. A hundred or so years ago it was completely normal to have the "inferior" black people as slaves. It wasn't seen as something to frown upon, it was sign of wealth and completely normal. These days we see slavery as a horrible thing, yet it still exists in some cultures and in those cultures it's still completely normal.

So you're saying that slavery is culturally ok if it exists in that culture. This argument is akin to arguing that the Taliban's abuse of women is culturally ok. What happened in your example of black inferiority is that eventually moral people realised that slavery was completely wrong and changed the culture, though it needed the Civil War in the US to end slavery. Something similar needs to happen in Seanchan.

Edited by Lord D
Link to post
Share on other sites

if you are christian and you are talking to a buddhist about religion, there are going to be differences. especially if you were born christian and he born buddhist, the views are 100% opposite. just about the only thing you could agree on is the core principals of every religion, be good to others, dont hurt or kill or cheat or be proud. well the same for them. just because you have never seen a big foot does that mean it doesnt exist? to tuon no one has seen shadow spawn in a so long that they are more than myths. remember mat didnt believe in trollocs at first, neither did rand. they were childrens stories told to frighten kids into going to sleep (a bit counterproductive i think) but then he sees one and it all comes crashing down. it wouldnt have mattered how much moiraine told him they existed, if they werent chasing him, he wouldnt have believed. the same with tuon. in her society and religion, it is OK for you to enslave someone, it is also necessary for the dragon reborn to kneel to the crystal throne. does that mean it is true? not at all. she doesnt need to be fixed she just needs to experience a little bit more.

Exactly.

 

Another real life example:

I find it easy to juxtapose Jesus and The Dragon Reborn. People know Jesus existed, just as they know The Dragon existed. Bible says Jesus will return, just as the Karaethon Cycle says that The Dragon will be reborn.

 

If someone edited the Bible to say that "Jesus will kneel in front of the Crystal Throne", then Christians would have no problem with the idea that when Jesus does his 2nd coming he will indeed kneel in front of the damn chair.

 

Most people (me includedm being non-religious and all) would require quite a lot of evidence before I even believed that Jesus is back in the game. Just like people of Randland would require quite a lot of evidence before they believe that Rand is indeed The Dragon Reborn.

 

 

 

It's easy for us readers to judge the people in the books because we KNOW the facts. We KNOW things. Try to imagine what you would do if someone came to your doorstep and said that Jesus has returned and is doing awesome deeds all over the world. Would you fanatically follow this messanger of light, or slam the door to his face? I'd most likely do the latter.

 

 

 

So you're saying that slavery is culturally ok if it exists in that culture. This argument is akin to arguing that the Taliban's abuse of women is culturally ok. What happened in your example of black inferiority is that eventually moral people realised that slavery was completely wrong and changed the culture, though it needed the Civil War in the US to end slavery. Something similar needs to happen in Seanchan.

I'm not saying slavery is OK. But I'm saying I understand why they do what they do. That's the way they've done things for centuries. It's how their culture works.

 

And I agree that something akin to Civil War in the US has to happen in Seanchan to set things "right". But also our perspective of "right" comes from our culture. Morals are rather new thing. In 1000 years people might think how barbarian the people of 21st century were because we imprison criminals and have sex with people under 40.

Edited by Ananta
Link to post
Share on other sites

I on the other hand like Tuon.

 

She's the way she is because the way their society works. It's cultural differences. What appears cruel to us is everyday thing to them. That's the way their world works. Ours wasn't much different not too long ago.

 

Take slavery for example. A hundred or so years ago it was completely normal to have the "inferior" black people as slaves. It wasn't seen as something to frown upon, it was sign of wealth and completely normal. These days we see slavery as a horrible thing, yet it still exists in some cultures and in those cultures it's still completely normal.

So you're saying that slavery is culturally ok if it exists in that culture. This argument is akin to arguing that the Taliban's abuse of women is culturally ok. What happened in your example of black inferiority is that eventually moral people realised that slavery was completely wrong and changed the culture, though it needed the Civil War in the US to end slavery. Something similar needs to happen in Seanchan.

 

I think what they meant is that you can't hate Tuon specifically because her culture uses Damane and how they are treated (even though it isn't ok, it is ok from her viewpoint due to her upbringing). You can hate the Seanchan as a whole for their cultural belief, and the idiots that started Damane in first place. Key word in your post is also eventually, it took a while for people to start thinking it was wrong. Your blaming something that has been ingrained in Seachan culture on Toun. She has been alive for what? 18 years? During that time, 17 years spent on Seachan brainwashed that Damane should be treated a certain way. She's spent maybe a year or two on Randland, you can't expect a complete reversal of her belief within 5 minutes of meeting Mat and seeing that treating Damane like that is wrong.

I think the damane thing as a whole will probably end up dispersing during AMOL. Due to a) WO will need to be freed, AS as well, probably Windfinders to and b) I doubt the vision Aveindah saw is what is going to happen. And without AS or WO being freed, war will likely happen. Tuon will probably (hopefully) change her opinions on Damane.

 

To your second point, Suroth was also a DF. And I'm not sure about raping, Suroth was made pretty much dirt. Remember Tuon (even though she was Daugther of nine moons) couldn't believe the Damane almost touched her (pretty sure this was on the boat). Not sure if DW Guard would even rape Suroth.

 

3) I think, not totally sure but she does say some of her siblings tried to kill her and I can't recall if she said anything about killing them then. Plus (you already mentioned) it's also apart of their culture, kind of weird how the DO want the forsaken to compete as does the seanchan queen or king with the siblings.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I on the other hand like Tuon.

 

She's the way she is because the way their society works. It's cultural differences. What appears cruel to us is everyday thing to them. That's the way their world works. Ours wasn't much different not too long ago.1

 

Take slavery for example. A hundred or so years ago it was completely normal to have the "inferior" black people as slaves. It wasn't seen as something to frown upon, it was sign of wealth and completely normal. These days we see slavery as a horrible thing, yet it still exists in some cultures and in those cultures it's still completely normal.2

If someone edited the Bible to say that "Jesus will kneel in front of the Crystal Throne", then Christians would have no problem with the idea that when Jesus does his 2nd coming he will indeed kneel in front of the damn chair.3

 

[...]

 

I'm not saying slavery is OK.4 But I'm saying I understand why they do what they do. That's the way they've done things for centuries. It's how their culture works.

4 You assert that you're not saying slavery's OK but your previous post argues otherwise. 2 Thrice you say it was "completely normal" to have slaves. Then you mention that "these days we see" slavery as bad but it's still normal in other cultures. You're not saying it but you're obviously implying that maybe it isn't so bad if it's considered "normal" in other cultures and was considered normal in the past.

 

In today's day and time we try to appreciate cultural diversity, which is why you are arguing as you are. But let me give you an even more extreme example: If it was perfectly OK in a culture to brutally rape small children because they misbehaved, and nobody in that culture considered it a problem, would that be reason enough to justify it? Obviously not. Similarly, your argument leads the reader toward the conclusion that just because the Seanchan think collaring damane is right that maybe we should consider their side and try to understand them. That is absolutely unacceptable. There is NO compromise on such issues. Slavery is slavery just as rape is rape. No if's and's or but's about it.

 

1 Just because people kept slaves in the past does NOT mean we should be empathetic or sympathetic towards others who do so now. In fact, we should be all the more strongly against it, to make sure others don't make the mistake our predecessors did. The Seanchan enslave women from when they are little girls right up until they die and they torture them mercilessly, "breaking" them like animals, in order to subdue and control them. Just because there are not physical marks or bruises does not change the fact that it is torture. There is no "other side of the coin." What they do is horrifying and they need to be stopped.

 

3 Yeah. But in this case there's another "bible". The Karaethon Cycle. The Seanchan prophecies are the Essanik Cycle. It's widely believed, and I agree, that among the many things Ishamael did to shape the Seanchan, corrupting their versions of the prophecies was one of them. But that doesn't address your point. You're saying that people will believe anything if it's written in a religious text like that. I agree. I also think it's still incredibly foolish of Tuon not to even consider other possibilities.

 

if you are christian and you are talking to a buddhist about religion, there are going to be differences. especially if you were born christian and he born buddhist, the views are 100% opposite. just about the only thing you could agree on is the core principals of every religion, be good to others, dont hurt or kill or cheat or be proud. well the same for them. just because you have never seen a big foot does that mean it doesnt exist? to tuon no one has seen shadow spawn in a so long that they are more than myths. remember mat didnt believe in trollocs at first, neither did rand.5 they were childrens stories told to frighten kids into going to sleep (a bit counterproductive i think) but then he sees one and it all comes crashing down. it wouldnt have mattered how much moiraine told him they existed, if they werent chasing him, he wouldnt have believed. the same with tuon. in her society and religion, it is OK for you to enslave someone, it is also necessary for the dragon reborn to kneel to the crystal throne. does that mean it is true? not at all. she doesnt need to be fixed she just needs to experience a little bit more.

 

5 You're comparing the ruler of a continent(Fortuona) to a country bumpkin(which Rand was at first when he found out about Trollocs). The ruler of every major nation in Randland knows and acknowledges the existence and danger of Shadowspawn. Rand and his friends had the excuse of being simple country folk who were ignorant. Tuon does not have that excuse. It is extremely irresponsible of her to pretend such a threat doesn't exist and/or be ignorant of it. Not only does she not know of it but she rebukes Mat when he tries explaining Shadowspawn to her. Her mind is completely closed to things she doesn't agree with. It is her JOB as ruler to consider every possibility and examine each one carefully instead of denying it offhand.

 

The Seanchan villagers may have an excuse to think Shadowspawn are fairytales but not the Empress. Or the Daughter of the Nine Moons. If you look at this map:WoT World Map you'll see that Seanchan has a Blight just like Randland. So they don't have that excuse to hide behind either. Bottom line: 1) Tuon has little or no excuse to be ignorant of Shadowspawn. 2) Even if she was ignorant, she was arrogant and "stubborn stupid"(as Rand used to say) in denying Mat's word and denying the possibility/risk.

 

EDIT:

 

I would like to add that while I despise her and think she ought to be leashed to get a taste of her own medicine, I don't think Tuon needs to be "fixed". There's a reason she was written by RJ as she was. She's supposed to be a good person who was born in the wrong place and is misguided. I'm sure we'll see her have some epiphany/realization in AMoL about how bad a'dam are etc and come over to the good side by allying with Rand.

Edited by Ashandarei
Link to post
Share on other sites

I like Tuon. Her and the Seanchan actually have a reason for thinking highly of themselves IMO. They bring order and organization to the lands they conquer, and they have good commanders in their army. Aside from that they have loads of cool imagery with their titles, which I always liked about them.

 

Tuons relationship with Mat makes me laugh. And I liked the way she acted with Rand in TGS, first by letting him actually sit with her and addressing him herself, letting him be her equal she believed. Of course theres no way she is anywhere near on par with him but she didnt believe it and wasnt about to start doing. Of all the times when people stood up to Rand, that was the one time where I was secretly cheering them on. Funnily enough I was cheering Rand on at the same time because I loved his dark phase. I really liked the fact that he tried to use the Pattern to make her agree, and I like the fact that she was strong-willed enough to resist it almost as much.

 

Also, the part where Rand and Nynaeve defend Mat to Tuon was one of my favorite moments in the books.

 

One last thing. Tuon should meet with Elayne, with Elayne acting all high and mighty and thinking shes better and whatnot, and Tuon should kick her ass, with a little Birgitte vs Selucia sidefight. And I totally wouldnt mind if Tuon killed Egwene as well.

 

How to fix Tuon? Make her grow her hair

Link to post
Share on other sites

I on the other hand like Tuon.

 

She's the way she is because the way their society works. It's cultural differences. What appears cruel to us is everyday thing to them. That's the way their world works. Ours wasn't much different not too long ago.1

 

Take slavery for example. A hundred or so years ago it was completely normal to have the "inferior" black people as slaves. It wasn't seen as something to frown upon, it was sign of wealth and completely normal. These days we see slavery as a horrible thing, yet it still exists in some cultures and in those cultures it's still completely normal.2

If someone edited the Bible to say that "Jesus will kneel in front of the Crystal Throne", then Christians would have no problem with the idea that when Jesus does his 2nd coming he will indeed kneel in front of the damn chair.3

 

[...]

 

I'm not saying slavery is OK.4 But I'm saying I understand why they do what they do. That's the way they've done things for centuries. It's how their culture works.

4 You assert that you're not saying slavery's OK but your previous post argues otherwise. 2 Thrice you say it was "completely normal" to have slaves. Then you mention that "these days we see" slavery as bad but it's still normal in other cultures. You're not saying it but you're obviously implying that maybe it isn't so bad if it's considered "normal" in other cultures and was considered normal in the past.

 

In today's day and time we try to appreciate cultural diversity, which is why you are arguing as you are. But let me give you an even more extreme example: If it was perfectly OK in a culture to brutally rape small children because they misbehaved, and nobody in that culture considered it a problem, would that be reason enough to justify it? Obviously not. Similarly, your argument leads the reader toward the conclusion that just because the Seanchan think it's right that maybe we should consider their side and try to understand them. That is absolutely unacceptable. There is NO compromise on such issues. Slavery is slavery just as rape is rape. No if's and's or but's about it.

 

1 Just because people kept slaves in the past does NOT mean we should be empathetic or sympathetic towards others who do so now. In fact, we should be all the more strongly against it, to make sure others don't make the mistake our predecessors did. The Seanchan enslave women from when they are little girls right up until they die and they torture them mercilessly, "breaking" them like animals, in order to subdue and control them. Just because there are not physical marks or bruises does not change the fact that it is torture. There is no "other side of the coin." What they do is horrifying and they need to be stopped.

 

3 Yeah. But in this case there's another "bible". The Karaethon Cycle. The Seanchan prophecies are the Essanik Cycle. It's widely believed, and I agree, that among the many things Ishamael did to shape the Seanchan, corrupting their versions of the prophecies was one of them. But that doesn't address your point. You're saying that people will believe anything if it's written in a religious text like that. I agree. I also think it's still incredibly foolish of Tuon not to even consider other possibilities.

 

 

5 You're comparing the ruler of a continent(Fortuona) to a country bumpkin(which Rand was at first when he found out about Trollocs). The ruler of every major nation in Randland knows and acknowledges the existence and danger of Shadowspawn. Rand and his friends had the excuse of being simple country folk who were ignorant. Tuon does not have that excuse. It is extremely irresponsible of her to pretend such a threat doesn't exist and/or be ignorant of it. Not only does she not know of it but she rebukes Mat when he tries explaining Shadowspawn to her. Her mind is completely closed to things she doesn't agree with. It is her JOB as ruler to consider every possibility and examine each one carefully instead of denying it offhand. The Seanchan villagers may have an excuse to think Shadowspawn are fairytales but not the Empress. Or the Daughter of the Nine Moons. If you look at this map:WoT World Map You'll see that Seanchan has a Blight just like Randland. So they don't have that excuse to hide behind either.

 

About the Seanchan Blight, it was said in the guide that the blight is pretty much extinct of Shadowspawn. Anyhow, I understand why Tuon wouldn't believe Mat about Shadowspawn, I wouldn't believe that boogeyman is real just because my girlfriend told me so. But then again, I agree with your point on the matter, too. She should have considered the possibility that they are actually real instead of completely dismissing it.

 

 

 

And I don't think slavery is okay. However, I used the kind of writing I did to emphasize the fact that "right" and "wrong" change all the time. Everyone thinks their "right" and "wrong" are the correct ones. That's the way our minds work. That's how we justify things. In another hundred years we might be considered beasts for using fur coats and holding animals in cages. Crazy for believing in 'obvious' things like global warming and evolution.

 

We, western folks, have rather advanced culture, so it's easy for us to judge others. Take child labour, people fight strongly against it, but our industry was strongly based on it. It's hypocritical of us to judge the use of child labour in developing countries after so strongly 'abusing' it to 'get ahead' in industry. And just for the record, I think child labour in countries like China is a good thing. At least the kids get food and shelter, and it keeps children from prostitution. True, they don't always have the best conditions, but it beats the alternative.

 

Tuon sees her Cycle as the right one, just like Jews see Torah, Muslims see Quran and Christians see Bible as the right one. One doesn't change his/her religious views very easily, so for Tuon to just suddenly jump from her Essanik Cycle to the Karaethon Cycle would be like Muslim changing from Quran to Torah.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I also happen to like Tuon and I don't believe she needs fixing.Her POVs and the chapters about her and mat are one of the best parts of the series for me.

 

Slavery can be brutal and abusive, but it is portrayed here in the story as it was during the chinese empire, slaves were mostly owned by nobility and they themselves enjoy much status amongst the general populace. I don't hate the Seanchan in their use of slavery, apart from the criminals turned slaves there is no hint nor evidence at all anywhere in the books to indicate the their slaves are oppressed and abused. The few slaves POV we've seen (albeit from highly stationed slaves) indicate they are proud of their status in life. But as far as the Damane leashing goes, I hope it ends somehow but I am not sure how that would happen so easily after it is already "institutionalized" in Seanchan culture.

 

Back to Tuon though, she's headstrong, strong willed, fair and just. She isn't manipulative and above all she keeps her word. I like her alot and consider her my second favorite female character behind Nynaeve.

 

I don't understand why the OP would start a poll and then try to bash the people who does not agree with him. what's the use of this poll then?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand why the OP would start a poll and then try to bash the people who does not agree with him. what's the use of this poll then?

 

Hahaha, sadly these things happen. Dont get me wrong, I like the odd debate once in a while, but I dont exactly go looking for them like some people seem to.

Link to post
Share on other sites

kill her or leash her. I might have some problems with Egwene but Tuon is simply inexcusable. She may have been brainwashed to believe that channelers are animals but she had plenty of time to see the truth in her travels with Mat. Normal seanchan like Tylee or Egeanin who had prolonged contacts with Aes Sedai figured it out. It's not rocket science.

she approves of and engages in torture (she is a suldam). That's what training of domane is by any reasonable definition of the word. I suggest that those who disagree reread Chapter 40 of TGH.

 

Egwene may be arrogant but she is nothing at all compared to Tuon. Her belief that the rest of the world is beneath her is sickening. I'm sure that she is going to have a change of heart in aMoL and everything is supposed to be hunky dory from there on but I don't find that acceptable. She had her chances to reform.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A better example in my opinion than slavery would be a socialized health care system or gay marriage. I live in a country with a socialized health care system and legalized gay marriage; as a straight guy who's been to a hospital once in the last twenty years (for chicken pox! At the age of 27!), I'm proud of both of those aspects of my country. I know of another country just to the south of mine wherein a large segment of the population views the possibility of a socialized health care system or legal gay marriage nationwide with a certain degree of horror.

 

People tend to believe what they've grown up believing. There are people that won't be convinced of the benefits of a public health care system, and who will never agree that there's nothing morally wrong with gay marriage. There are people like me who won't be convinced of the net benefits of a private health care system, and who consider the fight against gay marriage to be immoral. People can be obstinate things. I DO NOT mean to start a debate about health care or gay marriage. I simply use them to illustrate how decent, well meaning people can strongly disagree about how a society can and should be structured, and how segements within a population can be treated.

 

Tuon believes in the system she's lived in every moment of her life. I think that Tuon is wrong, but I can understand that she isn't easily swayed. My hope is that we see something like Mat getting hurt, and Tuon either using the One Power to burn away Shadowspawn attacking him or to Heal him herself.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How very strange this is. If you dislike Egwene you obviously have problems with women. If you like Tuan you obviously have no problem at all with slavery. WTH? This is fiction, people, FICTION, where you get to like bad people and societies without having it necessarily be a moral problem. Liking Tuan as a character is different from accepting slavery, or implicitly accepting moral relativism. Even in the real world--you know, the one outside of books--it is far from uncommon for us to like people who do nasty things.

 

Do any of you like Conan? You know: the thief and murderer? You must obviously be condoning theft and murder. Did any of you like any of the characters in the Godfather? Whoa, you must be a horrible person. You shouldn't have to apologize or actually defend yourself for liking, or disliking, certain characters, because you fear being labeled immoral. And I guess that's all I have to say about that. . .

Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't expect Tuon to do a complete shift from the views she's had her entire life in the few months she has been in the Westlands.

 

I have a question: Does anyone think that Rand would be as merciful to King Belsan as Tuon was to him? She is a fair and just ruler. Rand can (or used to) be iffy in that regard.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's what's screwed up about Damane, and Tuon's acceptance.

 

There are two rationale that the Seanchan use think leashing is okay. 1) they can do horrible things if they so choose, like murder people the the power, and 2) the ability to channel means you are sub-human, inherently, regardless of what you do with the power. There is no evidence that a girl who can channel is only leashed after she HAS channeled, rather it's the ability TO channel that makes them sub-human.

 

If Tuon believes in rationale 1 there's a big problem: Sul'dam can do all of the same things with the power! They just use a damane to do it. If a Sul'dam wishes to murder with the power, the damane will do it, there not going to say "no" they've been beaten and conditioned to not question. So really, you're just substituting the will of a Damane to murder or steal with the will of a Sul'dam to murder and steal.

 

Further, channeling makes Damane dangerous, but there is no Damane as dangerous in the Seanchan culture as Tuon herself. Tuon, because of a genetic fluke (being daughter of the Empress) can turn someone into property, have someone killed or raped, destroy a thriving household and lineage or even remove someone's name with three words. She only has this power because of a trick of her birth. Same as a damane, born with the ability to channel. Leashing them because they're a danger makes no sense.

 

If Tuon believes in rationale 2, there's a bigger problem, Tuon knows she can channel! If the mere ability to channel, not what one does with it, is what determines if someone is subhuman then Tuon should see herself as unfit and subhuman. Instead she brushes it aside, saying that she chooses not to channel and that makes the difference. But when Seanchan girls are leashed they don't wait until the girls choose to channel, they just find the ability and leash them. Choice doesn't matter, they are inherently considered to be subhuman. Tuon has now learned she has that same ability, but rather than shattering her preconceived notions or at least seriously challenging them, she brushes it aside. It's ludicrous. It'd be like living in a society where everyone with red hair is a murderer, and one day waking up and realizing you have read hair. You'd either freak out because you'd be sure you'd turn into a murderer, or you'd start to question whether or not everyone with red air actually is murderer. It'd be a major obstacle.

 

Bottom line is this, Tuon thinks people who can channel should be leashed except her, because leashing her is something she does not want to have happen.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know of another country just to the south of mine wherein a large segment of the population views the possibility of a socialized health care system or legal gay marriage nationwide with a certain degree of horror.

You must be Canadian.

Edited by Sleeper
Link to post
Share on other sites

I also happen to like Tuon and I don't believe she needs fixing.Her POVs and the chapters about her and mat are one of the best parts of the series for me.

 

Slavery can be brutal and abusive, but it is portrayed here in the story as it was during the chinese empire, slaves were mostly owned by nobility and they themselves enjoy much status amongst the general populace. I don't hate the Seanchan in their use of slavery, apart from the criminals turned slaves there is no hint nor evidence at all anywhere in the books to indicate the their slaves are oppressed and abused.1 The few slaves POV we've seen (albeit from highly stationed slaves) indicate they are proud of their status in life. But as far as the Damane leashing goes, I hope it ends somehow but I am not sure how that would happen so easily after it is already "institutionalized" in Seanchan culture.

 

Back to Tuon though, she's headstrong, strong willed, fair and just. She isn't manipulative and above all she keeps her word. I like her alot and consider her my second favorite female character behind Nynaeve.

 

I don't understand why the OP would start a poll and then try to bash the people who does not agree with him. what's the use of this poll then?

 

1 No hint or evidence you say? You're right, obviously the following quotes show how much the enslaved damane were in fact loved and well-treated, never abused...

"No!" Egwene shouted. She heard Renna curse softly, and suddenly the burning itch covered her skin again, worse than before, but she did not stop. "Please! High Lady, please! She is my friend!" Pain such as she had never known wracked her through the burning. Every muscle knotted and cramped; she pitched on her face in the dirt, mewling, but she could still see Elbar's heavy, curved blade come free of its sheath, see him raise it with both hands. "Please! Oh, Min!"

-

Egwene cried out as a switch seemed to lash across her back, then another across her leg, her arm. From every direction they seemed to come; she knew there was nothing to block, but she could not help throwing her arms about as if to stop the blows. She bit her lip to stifle her moans, but tears still rolled down her cheeks. Bela whinnied and danced, but Renna's grip on the silver leash kept her from carrying Egwene away. None of the soldiers even looked back.

If a damane moved her bracelet as much as a foot from where it had last been touched by a sul'dam . . . . Renna had made her do that, too - had made her carry her own bracelet across the room. Or try to. She was sure it had only been minutes before the sul'dam snapped the bracelet firmly on her own wrist, but to Egwene the screaming and the cramps that had had her writhing on the floor had seemed to go on for hours.

People today would be infuriated if they saw someone torturing an animal the way Egwene is abused, and rightly so. And I sincerely hope you would agree that Egwene is more than an animal. As for damane that are brought from Seanchan, while it may be that some don't mind serving as damane from the start because of their repulsive society, it is stated in the books that there are also others that resist it and are horrified when they learn that they are to be leashed. The reason that they are unanimously so "happy" with their situation is that they have been tortured, brainwashed, and broken after being collared. That's why the Aes Sedai and other women collared on this side of the Aryth Ocean end up becoming almost mindless animals, purely existing to please their masters and terrified of the consequences if they don't.

 

You were referring to da'covale, not damane, I know. But in doing so you were conveniently ignoring the other slaves(damane) also kept by the Seanchan. As for da'covale, do you honestly think that Amathera, the Panarch of Tarabon, is so terrified of Seanchan and prostates herself every time she sees one because she was "well-treated"?? She was a da'covale. And she was abused. Unless you want to try and argue that her will was broken with teddy bears and rainbows.

Edited by Ashandarei
Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that a lot of people on these forums really hate Egwene. She may be somewhat arrogant now, but I think she has to be a forceful personality to get the fractious Aes Sedai to do anything constructive. Even though she may grate on some people at the moment, I don't think she's anywhere near as bad as Tuon. Here are some good reasons to hate Tuon.

 

  1. Tuon participates in the breaking of damane. This is not nice at all.
  2. She gave Suroth to the Deathwatch Guard to "serve them as they wish". In my opinion, this means that the DW Guard raped Suroth. Even though Suroth was a traitor, and deserved some nasty punishments, this isn't nice at all.
  3. I think she killed some of her siblings to become the DotNM, although the Seanchan do seem to do this in their royal family anyway.

 

My way of fixing Tuon is to leash her, as publicly and in as humiliating a way as possible. It would be fair turnabout.

 

 

 

I agree with most of what you say except for the public leashing. As bad as Tuon is (much, much worse than Egwene) she does have some good qualities and good potential. As does the Seanchan Empire. Leashing her publicly would ruin her for use in changing the bad parts of the Seanchan system. With Mat to help & guide her (after spending a month leashed) she could be a considerable force for good.

 

 

 

Bottom line is this, Tuon thinks people who can channel should be leashed except her, because leashing her is something she does not want to have happen.

Mostly true but I would like to add that Toun and the Seanchan claim to be serving the Light/Pattern/Creator. This seems hypocritical to me. It is obvious to me that the ability to channel is given by the Light/Pattern/Creator not by the DO. So by leashing Damane the Seanchan are saying that they know better than their own god. That seems pretty arrogant/stupid to me. Now if they just leashed proven criminals or people like Semi who abuse the power that the creator gave them, it would be more understandable.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know of another country just to the south of mine wherein a large segment of the population views the possibility of a socialized health care system or legal gay marriage nationwide with a certain degree of horror.

You must be Canadian.

That I am, and proud to be, but no one's perfect. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

You were referring to da'covale, not damane, I know. But in doing so you were conveniently ignoring the other slaves(damane) also kept by the Seanchan. As for da'covale, do you honestly think that Amathera, the Panarch of Tarabon, is so terrified of Seanchan and prostates herself every time she sees one because she was "well-treated"?? She was a da'covale. And she was abused. Unless you want to try and argue that her will was broken with teddy bears and rainbows.

 

Unless you can reference a quote like you did w/ Egwene you have no evidence then aside from you imagination. As for Egwene, yes she is more than an animal and as I have said Damane leashing is wrong, but then again I love my dog more than I like Egwene. My dog isn't a hypocrite and never manipulates me ( well she makes cuddly eyes if she wants a tummy rub but that's beside the point I guess )

 

Anyways, I responded to this thread because it was a poll, I have no desire to debate with someone who has a chip on his shoulder about slavery so much that they would attack anybody who likes a character like Tuon as condoning slavery. There should be a book you can read that is so politically correct that you would have no problems about any of the characters, I recommend the children's section.

 

I am done responding to this thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless you can reference a quote like you did w/ Egwene you have no evidence then aside from you imagination.1 As for Egwene, yes she is more than an animal and as I have said Damane leashing is wrong, but then again I love my dog more than I like Egwene. My dog isn't a hypocrite and never manipulates me ( well she makes cuddly eyes if she wants a tummy rub but that's beside the point I guess )

 

Anyways, I responded to this thread because it was a poll, I have no desire to debate with someone who has a chip on his shoulder about slavery so much that they would attack anybody who likes a character like Tuon as condoning slavery.2There should be a book you can read that is so politically correct that you would have no problems about any of the characters, I recommend the children's section.3

 

I am done responding to this thread.

 

1 I don't think we ever see Amathera's POV in the books so we never get to see what she went through at the hands of the Seanchan. I made a simple inference:

 

Facts: 1) In the beginning Amathera was Panarch and full of herself as we see through Nynaeve/Elayne's POV's.

----------2) By the time Juilin frees her she grovels at the feet of any Seanchan that she sees and is terrified of them.

Premise: She underwent something that broke her will and scared her to the core.

Inference/Conclusion: The Seanchan disciplined/abused her when she defied her masters after being made da'covale. They disciplined her so harshly(and probably multiple times) that she is now terrified of all Seanchan.

 

Is my logic unclear?

 

2 In my previous post I specifically underlined and referred to the sentence where you said you don't have a problem with Seanchan despite their engaging in slavery. Key word: Seanchan. I was not attacking your statement because you liked Tuon. I honestly think she has good in her if you dig deep enough.

 

3 Never once did I say that the Wheel of Time was written wrong because it included Tuon or the Seanchan. I even specifically said in my second post that Tuon does not need to be fixed and that she was written that way for a reason. I think she is supposed to be a good person who is misguided because she was born and raised in the wrong place. Don't confuse my dislike of a character with my like or dislike of the series. WoT is amazing and slavery is a major conflict in the series that I think will be resolved(at least partially) in AMoL. If there's no conflict, there's no reason for there to be good guys and bad guys. A good story needs conflict. I've simply taken a stance on which side of that conflict is right and which is wrong.

 

P.S. I too like your dog more than I like Egwene and I've never even met your dog :wink:

Edited by Ashandarei
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...