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Seanchan prophesies are right


  

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  1. 1. Who has the original version of the Prophesies?



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It was a little more involved than that, if I remember correctly.

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I think it's more reasonable to assume that Luthiar brought them over to the Seanchan once he arrived.

If you'll look at the link I posted upthread, you'll see a quote showing that the KC was already known on the Seanchan continent before Luthair arrived - the Seanchan believe that the pre-existing version was the corrupted one.

 

thanks, I missed that. I do wonder how the prophecies got there before Luthiar.

 

 

there is no Crystal Throne at the time, no Seanchan Empire and no empress.

The Crystal Throne probably predates Luthair.

hmm, I didn't consider that. The only reference I can find to it is the mentioning in BWB that it's a great ter'angreal. That does lend credence to the idea that it comes from AoL. has it been mentioned in any interviews?

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Add in the factor that even though Traveling was lost to the public after the Breaking, it was not lost to Ishy. And he was Freed multiple times, giving him the ability to Travel all over, spreading whichever (altered) copies he chose to whatever places he chose.

 

We should not underestimate how far he went until he says differently - if he ever does.

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I think it's more reasonable to assume that Luthiar brought them over to the Seanchan once he arrived.

If you'll look at the link I posted upthread, you'll see a quote showing that the KC was already known on the Seanchan continent before Luthair arrived - the Seanchan believe that the pre-existing version was the corrupted one.

thanks, I missed that. I do wonder how the prophecies got there before Luthiar.

I'm not convinced that Traveling was completely lost by the end of the Breaking, or even necessarily by the time the White Tower was founded. But I doubt anyone remembered it much after that.

 

there is no Crystal Throne at the time, no Seanchan Empire and no empress.

The Crystal Throne probably predates Luthair.

hmm, I didn't consider that. The only reference I can find to it is the mentioning in BWB that it's a great ter'angreal. That does lend credence to the idea that it comes from AoL. has it been mentioned in any interviews?

Not much. We know that 1) it's not the High Seat of Tamyrlin, 2) it does not require channeling to activate, and 3) channelers are immune to its effects (assuming we can extrapolate that from the fact that Semirhage was immune). Probably no one was ever able to use the Throne so effectively before Luthair because there were too many channelers immune to its effects. It probably changed hands pretty regularly, assuming anyone bothered to use it at all.

 

I was under the impression that the Seanchan had 2 sets of prophesies.

Again, read the link I posted upthread (I think it was the 2nd or 3rd post of the thread) or just click the 'my FAQ' link in my sig and go to 'Seanchan prophecies'. There are some relevant and helpful quotes from the books and interviews. There is the pre-Luthair KC, the KC Luthair brought with him, and the Essanik. Only two sets, but two different versions of the KC. We don't know for sure that the pre-Luthair version is the same as the Randland version, but it's probably a fairly safe bet.

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Do we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne? Her time with Tuon was realtively brief, and for at least most of that time, Tuon was either in Randland or preparing to go there.

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channelers are immune to its effects (assuming we can extrapolate that from the fact that Semirhage was immune).

I always thought it was something like sai'din and Compulsion and both halves with dragkhar song, i.e. that you had to be holding the Source to be immune. Supposedly, Semirhage would know that, so she'd be holding it (ability masked and all) every time she came by (or all the time, if she didn't tie off the Mirror of Mists).

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Do we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne?

yes, we do know that. when she tells suroth that she killed the empress she mentions this:

 

The Empress Radhanan is dead. Remarkable how much blood there is in a human body. Enough to cover the whole Crystal Throne.

 

-KoD, prologue

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Do we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne?

yes, we do know that. when she tells suroth that she killed the empress she mentions this:

 

The Empress Radhanan is dead. Remarkable how much blood there is in a human body. Enough to cover the whole Crystal Throne.

 

-KoD, prologue

 

That just means that she say it, not that she was kneeling before it, feeling the urge to obey, etc, etc.

 

This seems to me to be a shaky argument from which to extropolate that channelers are immune from the effects of the Crystal Throne.

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Do we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne?

yes, we do know that. when she tells suroth that she killed the empress she mentions this:

 

The Empress Radhanan is dead. Remarkable how much blood there is in a human body. Enough to cover the whole Crystal Throne.

 

-KoD, prologue

 

That just means that she say it, not that she was kneeling before it, feeling the urge to obey, etc, etc.

 

This seems to me to be a shaky argument from which to extropolate that channelers are immune from the effects of the Crystal Throne.

 

As I recall, the effect of the Crystal Throne is to instill awe towards whoever is sitting on it in anyone present. Which might not actually stop Semirhage from killing the Empress Radhanan. (Hmm. I think that is the only time Tuon's mother's name is mentioned. Interesting.)

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Do we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne?

yes, we do know that. when she tells suroth that she killed the empress she mentions this:

 

The Empress Radhanan is dead. Remarkable how much blood there is in a human body. Enough to cover the whole Crystal Throne.

 

-KoD, prologue

 

That just means that she say it, not that she was kneeling before it, feeling the urge to obey, etc, etc.

 

This seems to me to be a shaky argument from which to extropolate that channelers are immune from the effects of the Crystal Throne.

 

I'm confused. I was simply responding to your question if we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne. That quote shows that she did. That's all I wanted to say.

Whether or not channelers are immune to its affects are are different matter. I made no claim there. but it's a reasonable assumption IMO. or it could be that a strong willed person (and Semirhage is certainly one such) can overcome its effect.

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Do we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne?

yes, we do know that. when she tells suroth that she killed the empress she mentions this:

 

The Empress Radhanan is dead. Remarkable how much blood there is in a human body. Enough to cover the whole Crystal Throne.

 

-KoD, prologue

 

That just means that she say it, not that she was kneeling before it, feeling the urge to obey, etc, etc.

 

This seems to me to be a shaky argument from which to extropolate that channelers are immune from the effects of the Crystal Throne.

 

I'm confused. I was simply responding to your question if we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne. That quote shows that she did. That's all I wanted to say.

Whether or not channelers are immune to its affects are are different matter. I made no claim there. but it's a reasonable assumption IMO. or it could be that a strong willed person (and Semirhage is certainly one such) can overcome its effect.

 

As long as she's not getting spanked. :biggrin:

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I personally think that the Essanik Cycle are all the prophecies that are available to the Empire with the KC being a subset of them, sorta like the name for the entire repository of prophecies. But, if not that, then I think the EC and the KC would be separate with the EC coming after Luthair brought his KC. I don't think that the EC can precede Luthair's arrival simply because I don't think propaganda wise they would allow something from the time when marath'damane controlled the land.

 

And as for Ajimbura and other hill tribes, they're a primitive part of the continent, not the entire continent itself. Knowing population level and the fact that Luthair's experienced and effectkve armies simply couldn't steamroll the original Armies of the Night without having damane on their side, I think speaks that there couldn't have been that much of a disparity between the two.

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I personally think that the Essanik Cycle are all the prophecies that are available to the Empire with the KC being a subset of them, sorta like the name for the entire repository of prophecies. But, if not that, then I think the EC and the KC would be separate with the EC coming after Luthair brought his KC. I don't think that the EC can precede Luthair's arrival simply because I don't think propaganda wise they would allow something from the time when marath'damane controlled the land.

 

Agreed, the options are pretty limited and either way, it's pretty obvious the EC does not predate the KC.

 

And as for Ajimbura and other hill tribes, they're a primitive part of the continent, not the entire continent itself. Knowing population level and the fact that Luthair's experienced and effectkve armies simply couldn't steamroll the original Armies of the Night without having damane on their side, I think speaks that there couldn't have been that much of a disparity between the two.

 

Could be right but it seems at a least a large section of the continent consisted of such tribes.

Either way, the Consolidation took about 800 years, combine that with how long the continent was at war already, we're talking like 2700+ years straight of war and strife.

Not exactly an environment conducive to higher learning.

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I'm confused. I was simply responding to your question if we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne. That quote shows that she did. That's all I wanted to say.

Whether or not channelers are immune to its affects are are different matter. I made no claim there. but it's a reasonable assumption IMO. or it could be that a strong willed person (and Semirhage is certainly one such) can overcome its effect.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 2 November 2005 - Mad Cao reporting

 

I asked RJ to expand on Semirhage's actions in Seanchan. He answered, in general terms, that she had engineered the complete eradication of the royal line (nothing new here). I then asked if Semirhage was somehow immune to the effects of the Crystal Throne, and he said that she certainly was.

 

 

Yes, she was immune.

 

How, is another question, it is anyones guess.

 

A ter'angreal?

A weave?

Willpower?

 

No idea really.

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I'm confused. I was simply responding to your question if we know that Semirhage ever stood before the Crystal Throne. That quote shows that she did. That's all I wanted to say.

Whether or not channelers are immune to its affects are are different matter. I made no claim there. but it's a reasonable assumption IMO. or it could be that a strong willed person (and Semirhage is certainly one such) can overcome its effect.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 2 November 2005 - Mad Cao reporting

 

I asked RJ to expand on Semirhage's actions in Seanchan. He answered, in general terms, that she had engineered the complete eradication of the royal line (nothing new here). I then asked if Semirhage was somehow immune to the effects of the Crystal Throne, and he said that she certainly was.

 

 

ah, good. thanks for clearing that up.

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Back to the OP.

 

Which version is corrupted?

 

One thing that I always found interesting was when RJ was asked about the Horn in the AoL. He said they knew it was in the Prophecies of the Dragon that it needed to be with the Dragon Banner at the Eye of the World.

This is interesting because it's also stated that the Horn is not mentioned in the Randland Prophecies of the Dragon, only that it must be found for the Last Battle but is mentioned in the Seanchan version.

Couple this with Avi's recent visions from Rhuidean that Rand will actually kneel before the Empress, it gives great credence to the Seanchan version being the uncorrupted version.

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TGH26 said:

"In the great libraries," Thom said slowly. "Any number of translations, and even in the Old Tongue, here and there." Rand started to ask if there was any way for him to find one, but the gleeman went on. "The Old Tongue has music in it, but too many even of the nobles are impatient with listening to it these days. Nobles are all expected to know the Old Tongue, but many only learn enough to impress people who don't. Translations don't have the same sound, unless they're in High Chant, and sometimes that changes meanings even more than most translations."

 

Using this quote which I saw Terez use as part of an arguement in another thread as the best evidence to explain myself, I would have to vote that NEITHER Seanchan or Randland have "Origional" copies of the KC, the only exception here is as it is stated in the first line "and even in the Old Tongue", but who is to say that these are direct trandlations, parts may have been left out due to social/regional bias or just simply because the translator didn't think they were actually inportant?

 

As has been stated a few times early in the books when the topic of the'Old Tongue' came up it is difficult to translate as one word could have different meanings in different contexts and if the wrong 'Common Tongue' word was used in the translation it could throw the whole meaning of the prophecy right out the window as the meaning and 'feel' of the word is different.

I hate using this as an example, but take text messeging, you could say most benign thing but because there is no emotion or the 'feel' of the context is off, the person recieving the messege may take it the wrong way.

 

In short, neither the West or the Empire have true, 100% correct versions of the prophecies because IMHO, they do not exsist anymore.

 

A.

 

PS. Sorry if this has already been stated in one form or another, it's been a few days since I first read the thread and has since been updated, but as I'm pressed for time I haven't read the updates.

Edited by Aliriel
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Well, naturally both versions aren't 100% faithful to the original (if there ever existed a single globally-agreed-upon version in the first place), Brandon's as good as said so himself.

I take the question to mean - does one of the versions contain truthful statements (i.e. that someone has indeed Foretold, rather than it being added along the way by mistake or malicious intent) the other does not? Which is why I voted 'both'.

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Well, naturally both versions aren't 100% faithful to the original (if there ever existed a single globally-agreed-upon version in the first place), Brandon's as good as said so himself.

 

See, this is where I'm slightly annoyed about how the book tours go. Ok, I fully understand that a full "Round the World" book signing/Q&A tour would be near impossible, and I also know that you can "tweet" questions in, but why is it all big authors only tour the States and Great Britton?

Now I'm sorry if this is short sighted or just plan wrong, but for the past 16 years (since I became interested in reading) I have not heard of the likes of RJ, Ken Follet, BS, Raymond E Feist or any author of any acclaim coming to New Zealand. I personally know over 90 people, in my town alone, who have all read WoT and would give their left arms for a chance to ask questions to Team Jordan.

I know this is completely off topic but I'm in a ranty mood so I'll end now.

 

Back on Topic!!

 

I certainally agree that the both have different content that is not contained in the other, and I agree that some of it may be completely... honest, for lack of a better word, but in saying that, the KC was a running work, maybe not so much in the later years but certainally closer to the Breaking the inflow of these Foretellings would have been enormous and as I have not read of any evedince that says there was a "Master Copy" of the KC, it is possible that something was written down in one book/manuscript that wasn't in the others and these became the basis of the version the Seanchan has and the others became the basis of the Randland version.

 

Thin and not well thought out, but it's only a thought, not a true theory.

 

A.

Edited by Aliriel
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Well, naturally both versions aren't 100% faithful to the original (if there ever existed a single globally-agreed-upon version in the first place), Brandon's as good as said so himself.

 

See, this is where I'm slightly annoyed about how the book tours go. Ok, I fully understand that a full "Round the World" book signing/Q&A tour would be near impossible, and I also know that you can "tweet" questions in, but why is it all big authors only tour the States and Great Britton?

Now I'm sorry if this is short sighted or just plan wrong, but for the past 16 years (since I became interested in reading) I have not heard of the likes of RJ, Ken Follet, BS, Raymond E Feist or any author of any acclaim coming to New Zealand. I personally know over 90 people, in my town alone, who have all read WoT and would give their left arms for a chance to ask questions to Team Jordan.

I know this is completely off topic but I'm in a ranty mood so I'll end now.

A lot of people use Twitter for this, especially where Brandon is concerned, because he likes using it. He is much more open about answering questions in person, but he still answers a great deal on Twitter. And you might not have any interest in using Twitter for the most part, but there are many people who use it only for following Brandon and asking him questions. If you check out the interview database (linked in my sig) you'll see that most of his recent Q&A are from Twitter.

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