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Demandred


Terez
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um... Greandal is actually in the wot world.

um...so? We have more information to work with in most cases than she does. For instance, we knew that he was not posing as any of the Borderland rulers. She did not.

 

True, but we can't plant spies for example like she can. We have gotten very little information on Demandred throughout the books. She's going to know a lot more about him than us, and not necessarily where he is but things that would give her clues to where he could be. Clues that we may not have simply because they aren't written in the books.

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It could simply be that Demandred is capable of keeping Graendal confused. She doesn't seem to be too surprised about that possibility when she considers the Borderland rulers - with all her spies in that camp, she didn't have any real indication that he was one of them, but she still considered it. She expects him to make power plays, plays for chaos, and Murandy is one of the least significant nations on the map. Why would she consider it?

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It could simply be that Demandred is capable of keeping Graendal confused. She doesn't seem to be too surprised about that possibility when she considers the Borderland rulers - with all her spies in that camp, she didn't have any real indication that he was one of them, but she still considered it. She expects him to make power plays, plays for chaos, and Murandy is one of the least significant nations on the map. Why would she consider it?

 

I admit that Greandal could simply have overlooked things she considered unlikely. But I have a high enough opinion of her (despite her pathetic showing in ToM) to hope that she wouldn't make such a mistake. Of course the reason why she suspects the bordelander rulers is because they are the only armies that could still be taken, or rather the only armies of significant strength to interest Demandred. And one has to consider if Demandred would be capable of settling for such a weak nation. He appears to be fairly arrogant, which is to be expected of a forsaken of course, but none of the others settled for a weak nation.

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Amazing what you can sometimes uncover in Dida/Felix's ramblings if you are willing to sift through the dross isn't it?

Indeed. He's good at uncovering overlooked details, but bad at making leaps based upon those details.

 

Its hard to take anything Dida/Felix Pax says seriously with his continuing refusal to admit that Cyndane is Lanfear. That's just a sticking point for me with his credibility. His strange obsession with Valan Luca doesn't help either. Mostly I just see him taking completely trivial details and turning them into the most long-winded, borderline incoherent, weird theories I've ever seen. Often entertaining, but rarely informative.

 

Agreed, the Cyndane and Luca issues are pretty hard to get past. It's just that every now and again I would be incredulously laughing my way through one of his posts and see a detail I had completely forgotten(or never found in the first place) and the light bulb goes on...for something totally unrelated to what he was using it to support of course. I for one miss having him around.

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13 books and we are still debating who the hell demandred is. Does it really matter? This guy is not the nearly man of the last age is he? Holed up in some worthless place with his worthless pawns ready to be obliterated by the time he ventures out into the open.

 

And according to brandon, demandred apparently is the most important shadow character.LOL We all know the end is near for the baddies but i was hoping for a bit of a fight from the villains. One last hell mary before going down. It seems they won't even be afforded that. Certainly not with demandred at their helm.

 

Having said that, He might 'shock, gasp' kill an aes sedai or two. Perhaps even cadsuane before he gets annhilated. But it will be a sorry end to man who promised so much and delievered so little in this series. Oh well...

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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Agreed, the Cyndane and Luca issues are pretty hard to get past. It's just that every now and again I would be incredulously laughing my way through one of his posts and see a detail I had completely forgotten(or never found in the first place) and the light bulb goes on...for something totally unrelated to what he was using it to support of course. I for one miss having him around.

I was actually following him on Twitter for a while. Twitter has been boring lately, so I might follow him again. It gets difficult, though, when he is @ing several people that I follow in addition to @ing me. Major floodage. Also, he still posts at Theoryland. I used to have him on ignore because I just couldn't take it, but I often make myself read his posts for that reason.

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I'm sure this has been mentioned before but Demandred could be Taim... I'm not done with my re-read yet, but as far as I know, Demandred is still in the Dark One's/Moridin's favor so it's possible that he has the other dream spike. Quoting from Mordin's and Graendal's conversation: "I have only found two, and the other is being put to good use." We know that there is a dream spike around the Black Tower, as the gateways don't work there towards the end of ToM, so it's logical that Demandred could be Taim, or perhaps Taim is another one of the Forsaken or one of the Age of Legends Dreadlords. Just my opinion; there's not much evidence to prove that Taim is Demandred, but Taim--or someone in the Black Tower/associated with it-- must be either one of the Forsaken or one of their high-ranking minions. Considering Osan'Gar (who was posing as one of the Asha'Man) was killed a looonnngg while back, it's plausible that Demandred took an interest in the Black Tower, just as Graendal is thinking of taking over Semrihage's manipulation of the Seanchan.

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13 books and we are still debating who the hell demandred is. Does it really matter? This guy is not the nearly man of the last age is he? Holed up in some worthless place with his worthless pawns ready to be obliterated by the time he ventures out into the open.

 

And according to brandon, demandred apparently is the most important shadow character.LOL We all know the end is near for the baddies but i was hoping for a bit of a fight from the villains. One last hell mary before going down. It seems they won't even be afforded that. Certainly not with demandred at their helm.

 

Having said that, He might 'shock, gasp' kill an aes sedai or two. Perhaps even cadsuane before he gets annhilated. But it will be a sorry end to man who promised so much and delievered so little in this series. Oh well...

 

Well the identity of Asmodean's killer was a good deal less important than Demandred's identity but people debated that quite a bit. Does it matter? No, it's not like we could change anything, discuss it as much as we want. But if it's interesting to people they discuss it, that's all there is to it. If it's not interesting to you well that's you.

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I'm sure this has been mentioned before but Demandred could be Taim... I'm not done with my re-read yet, but as far as I know, Demandred is still in the Dark One's/Moridin's favor so it's possible that he has the other dream spike. Quoting from Mordin's and Graendal's conversation: "I have only found two, and the other is being put to good use." We know that there is a dream spike around the Black Tower, as the gateways don't work there towards the end of ToM, so it's logical that Demandred could be Taim, or perhaps Taim is another one of the Forsaken or one of the Age of Legends Dreadlords. Just my opinion; there's not much evidence to prove that Taim is Demandred, but Taim--or someone in the Black Tower/associated with it-- must be either one of the Forsaken or one of their high-ranking minions. Considering Osan'Gar (who was posing as one of the Asha'Man) was killed a looonnngg while back, it's plausible that Demandred took an interest in the Black Tower, just as Graendal is thinking of taking over Semrihage's manipulation of the Seanchan.

 

Demandred isn't Taim. Robert Jordan said so many times. And it wouldn't make sense considering Demandred's reaction to Flinn during the cleansing.

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13 books and we are still debating who the hell demandred is. Does it really matter? This guy is not the nearly man of the last age is he? Holed up in some worthless place with his worthless pawns ready to be obliterated by the time he ventures out into the open.

 

And according to brandon, demandred apparently is the most important shadow character.LOL We all know the end is near for the baddies but i was hoping for a bit of a fight from the villains. One last hell mary before going down. It seems they won't even be afforded that. Certainly not with demandred at their helm.

 

Having said that, He might 'shock, gasp' kill an aes sedai or two. Perhaps even cadsuane before he gets annhilated. But it will be a sorry end to man who promised so much and delievered so little in this series. Oh well...

 

Well the identity of Asmodean's killer was a good deal less important than Demandred's identity but people debated that quite a bit. Does it matter? No, it's not like we could change anything, discuss it as much as we want. But if it's interesting to people they discuss it, that's all there is to it. If it's not interesting to you well that's you.

 

 

People were after asmo's killer because they haven't got the clue and they wanted to know who offed his head. It's like a mystery novel. we always wanna know the killer.

 

Demandred's identity on the other hand matters very little to me in the grand scheme of things because he has done fuck all in the last 13 books to even warrant an interest to his motives or whereabouts.He might as well been in a coma since book 1 since no one would have missed him.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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I'm sure this has been mentioned before but Demandred could be Taim... I'm not done with my re-read yet, but as far as I know, Demandred is still in the Dark One's/Moridin's favor so it's possible that he has the other dream spike. Quoting from Mordin's and Graendal's conversation: "I have only found two, and the other is being put to good use." We know that there is a dream spike around the Black Tower, as the gateways don't work there towards the end of ToM, so it's logical that Demandred could be Taim, or perhaps Taim is another one of the Forsaken or one of the Age of Legends Dreadlords. Just my opinion; there's not much evidence to prove that Taim is Demandred, but Taim--or someone in the Black Tower/associated with it-- must be either one of the Forsaken or one of their high-ranking minions. Considering Osan'Gar (who was posing as one of the Asha'Man) was killed a looonnngg while back, it's plausible that Demandred took an interest in the Black Tower, just as Graendal is thinking of taking over Semrihage's manipulation of the Seanchan.

Read this. It pretty much sums up the various Demandred theories.

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was just reading through this and came across something. people guessed Danielle was Mesaana? maybe my memory is going but when was Danielle mentioned in the books before the revalation?

Ya i believe if the authors says Demandred isnt Taim, you gotta believe him haha.

The only way i could see Demandred being in Murandy was if he was maybe gathering an army of channelers. perhaps the ones who blew down the wall in Saldea.

Demandred was always like the counter to Lewis therin, leading the armies, not cowering and on the forefronts. but if it hiding/not running head long into a fight seemed to give demandred an edge he would take it. above all he wants to personally slay Lewis therin.

his "gathering armies" could be where the asha'man from the tower go to get special training and return much more powerful or where the guy, Rash or something, sorry i forget his name, came from with almost full potential. Just imagine that, a fight breaking out in the tower. the good guys look like they are winning then demandred crew rolls in through a gate, because they down the key to the dream spike. and start laying havoc to the middle of Randland, a place though to be safe. this now could turn into a 3 front war, the trollocs pouring down from the north, seachan from south and the black tower in the middle.

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13 books and we are still debating who the hell demandred is. Does it really matter? This guy is not the nearly man of the last age is he? Holed up in some worthless place with his worthless pawns ready to be obliterated by the time he ventures out into the open.

 

And according to brandon, demandred apparently is the most important shadow character.LOL We all know the end is near for the baddies but i was hoping for a bit of a fight from the villains. One last hell mary before going down. It seems they won't even be afforded that. Certainly not with demandred at their helm.

 

Having said that, He might 'shock, gasp' kill an aes sedai or two. Perhaps even cadsuane before he gets annhilated. But it will be a sorry end to man who promised so much and delievered so little in this series. Oh well...

 

Well the identity of Asmodean's killer was a good deal less important than Demandred's identity but people debated that quite a bit. Does it matter? No, it's not like we could change anything, discuss it as much as we want. But if it's interesting to people they discuss it, that's all there is to it. If it's not interesting to you well that's you.

 

 

People were after asmo's killer because they haven't got the clue and they wanted to know who offed his head. It's like a mystery novel. we always wanna know the killer.

 

Demandred's identity on the other hand matters very little to me in the grand scheme of things because he has done fuck all in the last 13 books to even warrant an interest to his motives or whereabouts.He might as well been in a coma since book 1 since no one would have missed him.

 

According to Sanderson Demandred's identity is harder to find than that of Asmodean's killer, so I would say it's at least as big a mystery. And I think Demandred and his actions are going to matter a lot more than the identity of Asmodean's killer. If Demandred had been in a coma since book 1 than he wouldn't be able to do his thing in the last book. Just because we've seen very little of him doesn't mean he's been sitting around doing nothing. What he has been doing is the mystery and he is interesting because he's the only forsaken to date who has not failed in any way.

Edited by Master Ablar
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was just reading through this and came across something. people guessed Danielle was Mesaana? maybe my memory is going but when was Danielle mentioned in the books before the revalation?

Several times. She was involved in Siuan's deposition. Siuan had just noticed that Danelle had for some reason hired enough masons to build a whole new library, for some supposedly minor repairs. She thought Danelle was just being careless, but then Elaida and Co. showed up (Danelle included) to depose her. She was also seen in the TFOH prologue as one of Elaida's 'trusted' group of advisors, whom Elaida apparently thought were supposed to be her lapdogs. The group was dispersed as Elaida's insecurities grew, so Danelle was rarely seen after that.

 

The reason why we suspected Danelle is because she would have been one of the easiest to imitate. She had few friends in the Tower and for the most part kept to herself, to the point of being odd even for a Brown. We know that Mesaana could not have just created an Aes Sedai out of thin air - she would have had to Compel the entire Tower to pull that off. So, Danelle was an easy target for identity theft. Also beneficial was the fact that Danelle resembled Mesaana closely enough to avoid the weaknesses of using Illusion as a disguise. All it takes is a touch to reveal differences in bone structure, for example. When Shaidar Haran nullified Mesaana's Illusion weave in COT, Alviarin thought she almost recognized her.

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was just reading through this and came across something. people guessed Danielle was Mesaana? maybe my memory is going but when was Danielle mentioned in the books before the revalation?

Several times. She was involved in Siuan's deposition. Siuan had just noticed that Danelle had for some reason hired enough masons to build a whole new library, for some supposedly minor repairs. She thought Danelle was just being careless, but then Elaida and Co. showed up (Danelle included) to depose her. She was also seen in the TFOH prologue as one of Elaida's 'trusted' group of advisors, whom Elaida apparently thought were supposed to be her lapdogs. The group was dispersed as Elaida's insecurities grew, so Danelle was rarely seen after that.

 

The reason why we suspected Danelle is because she would have been one of the easiest to imitate. She had few friends in the Tower and for the most part kept to herself, to the point of being odd even for a Brown. We know that Mesaana could not have just created an Aes Sedai out of thin air - she would have had to Compel the entire Tower to pull that off. So, Danelle was an easy target for identity theft. Also beneficial was the fact that Danelle resembled Mesaana closely enough to avoid the weaknesses of using Illusion as a disguise. All it takes is a touch to reveal differences in bone structure, for example. When Shaidar Haran nullified Mesaana's Illusion weave in COT, Alviarin thought she almost recognized her.

 

Great in sight Terez...

 

I also enjoy Blog, your FAQ and library...lots great info....

Edited by child of light
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excellent o.p. terez. well researched and presented. bravo. :biggrin:

 

i really like the balefire causing the pattern to unravel theory. my own take on it is that he (demandred) or whomever would not have to balefire large numbers of people. this is even implied during his conversation with the d.o. "THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE." if he were targeting specific individuals ta'veren, near ta'veren, or someday might be ta'veren :flamingsword: it could have the same effect.

 

i was surprised you didn't cite the strongest (in my mind) piece of evidence against taimendred. (seriously, i don't understand why people have clung so hard to that idea).:rolleyes: "That tottering old man was an Asha'man!" demandred did not recognize damer flinn during the attack on shadar logoth at the end of w.h. the first man at the farm that taim tested and found could use the power. i remember reading that back 10 years ago and putting the book down to go find my copy of l.o.c. to verify it.:unsure: up until then i think Jordan had been leading us to think that they were the same, but that is pretty clear evidence that they are not.

 

finally, i guess i just don't like the idea of demi being reordan. it certainly fits, but i like my own crackpot theory on what demi has been up to, and i'm gonna cling to it no matter what! :tongue: i think he has been consolidating his "rule" of the darkfriends in randland. with every fighting man in the world off fighting t.g. they will come out and riot in every small town and large city across randland. if they are organized they could cause a lot of chaos and harm without any real way to stop them short of pitched battles in the street. absolutely no evidence for it, it's just my own crack idea so don't be too hard on it :cool:

 

again, an excellent o.p.

Edited by sumquy
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