Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Why Destroy the Choedan Kal?


alpineman
 Share

Recommended Posts

The choedan kal was destroyed for one reason and one reason alone.

 

 

To give the bad guys a chance. Even if it's a lost cause in the end.

 

 

C'mon now. just imagine the kal in rand's hands and 50 million trillion shadowspawn fly out the blight. BOOOOOOOOOM!!!

Dead. Rand will be like 'is that all you got shaitan?

 

so you gotta give the bad guys a chance man. The dragon reborn is a fair man after all.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 78
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I don't know if this has been said before but one reason could be that he feared them. They are incredibly powerful and just think what could happen if they fell into the wrong hands. After Rand defeats the DO(assuming this will happen) the world would most likely be in a state of disarray. If someone with evil intentions got ahold of the CK it would be bad news for the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The choedan kal was destroyed for one reason and one reason alone.

 

 

To give the bad guys a chance. Even if it's a lost cause in the end.

 

 

C'mon now. just imagine the kal in rand's hands and 50 million trillion shadowspawn fly out the blight. BOOOOOOOOOM!!!

Dead. Rand will be like 'is that all you got shaitan?

 

so you gotta give the bad guys a chance man. The dragon reborn is a fair man after all.

 

Hahaha!

 

Yeah, I guess, had he held on to it, we would HAVE to have some new corrupting element in it, or maybe it would get stolen, or something.

I agree that power is not what will win it against the Big Bad in the end, but if he could just wipe out every other baddy and effectively end the threat and tension of war without a thought, it would greatly devalue the whole Last-Battle-to-decide-the-fate-of-the-world thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rand uses a weave in (I think) the Stone of Tear that precisely targets and destroys shadowspawn - it scatters off down corridors and around corners and so on.

 

How come he didn't use CK to weave it on a global scale? One weave = zero shadowspawn. :/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rand uses a weave in (I think) the Stone of Tear that precisely targets and destroys shadowspawn - it scatters off down corridors and around corners and so on.

 

How come he didn't use CK to weave it on a global scale? One weave = zero shadowspawn. :/

 

He doesn't remember how he did it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rand was beginning to rely on CK too much. It was becoming like a security blanket to him. He took it with him everywhere he went, basically hugged it.

I believe he began to realize that he wouldn't continue to grow if relying on an object like CK to do his work for him. Also, perhaps

he thought absolute power like that could corrupt him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember that scene in Lord of Chaos where all the Asha'man worked together, but without linking?

That's what the 100 companions did. Doing it properly requires a lot of drilling, and a lot of precision, but it can be done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought the book made it obvious why Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal. I don't have the book with me so I can't quote it, but basically Rand was losing his mind. By the end of the book, he's on Dragonmount, filled with anger, despair and desperation at the thought of being bound to the wheel forever, struggling and dying without end. In this state of mind, Rand draws on the Choedan Kal fully intending to destroy the entire world.

 

Luckily, the part of him that is Lews Therin talks him out of it. In that moment of clarity, he relaizes that he absolutely cannot be trusted with the Choedan Kal. He would have been crazy NOT to destroy it, given that he almost caused the end of the entire world. Plus, he had to do something with all that power that he was holding, so he channeled it back into the Choedan Kal.

 

The 'alien invasion' arguement holds no weight. Of course Rand is aware that the Choedan Kal would have been a huge advantage in the last battle, but he also knew there was a danger he'd try to abuse the power, or even attempt to destroy the world with it again. If neither he nor anyone else can be trusted to weild that power, then it's useless, 'alien invasion' or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a book, in reality, it would be ultra stupid to destroy your greatest weapon before the greatest battle to come in 3000 years if not more.

By that logic then, we should all be using nukes in any military engagement. They're our most powerful weapons. It would be "ultra stupid" not to.

 

In political game theory, since the cold war, there has been a concept called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. the Nuke=CK analogy is good but it doesn't account for the policy of not using nukes. CK leaves fallout ala balefire not radiation. The key difference is that in randland there is only one nuke/CK. From this point of view it may be reasonable to argue that from a strategic point of view, he just screwed the pooch.

There is a dynamic in RJ's books between typical moral choices and being a good leader. the good leader makes the choices no one else can/should. including ignoring the dead or going to war. I believe he destroyed the CK because the nature of the tool violated the nature of the thing he is attempting to save, it may be best to have the DO destroy the world rather then have the temptation of doing so himself or on accident.IF he did/does destory the wheel with the CK what would be the difference between Rand and the DO?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought the book made it obvious why Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal. I don't have the book with me so I can't quote it, but basically Rand was losing his mind. By the end of the book, he's on Dragonmount, filled with anger, despair and desperation at the thought of being bound to the wheel forever, struggling and dying without end. In this state of mind, Rand draws on the Choedan Kal fully intending to destroy the entire world.

 

Luckily, the part of him that is Lews Therin talks him out of it. In that moment of clarity, he relaizes that he absolutely cannot be trusted with the Choedan Kal. He would have been crazy NOT to destroy it, given that he almost caused the end of the entire world. Plus, he had to do something with all that power that he was holding, so he channeled it back into the Choedan Kal.

 

 

That makes a lot of sense to me. And, regarding the 'it came out of no where' confusion: as has been stated earlier he was becoming addicted to the CK. I was addicted to tobacco all my life [second hand and all that, free smokes from 13 to 16, etc.] and then one day I looked at the cigarette in my hand and said 'nope.' I put it out and walked away. there was no build up, no major realization, just an out of the blue 'I'm done with you.'

 

I believe this is how Rand felt as he was becoming ridiculously addicted to the CK. [When you start carrying something as a security blanket, and petting it, you know something's up. I wouldn't be surprised if he whispered to it in his sleep.] He knew this, but didn't want to admit it to himself, until finally, in a moment of desperation, LTT was able to talk to him - instead of at him - and Rand did what he needed to do to free himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rand uses a weave in (I think) the Stone of Tear that precisely targets and destroys shadowspawn - it scatters off down corridors and around corners and so on.

 

How come he didn't use CK to weave it on a global scale? One weave = zero shadowspawn. :/

 

He doesn't remember how he did it.

LTT would. :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe this is how Rand felt as he was becoming ridiculously addicted to the CK. [When you start carrying something as a security blanket, and petting it, you know something's up. I wouldn't be surprised if he whispered to it in his sleep.] He knew this, but didn't want to admit it to himself, until finally, in a moment of desperation, LTT was able to talk to him - instead of at him - and Rand did what he needed to do to free himself.

 

I fully agree with this. It was the fear of the addiction and realisation that he DIDN'T want to (figurtivly) hide behind the CK anymore, because IMO thats all he has really been doing in the last few books when he has had to confront anyone, Intimidate or destroy.

 

I was addicted to tobacco all my life [second hand and all that, free smokes from 13 to 16, etc.] and then one day I looked at the cigarette in my hand and said 'nope.' I put it out and walked away. there was no build up, no major realization, just an out of the blue 'I'm done with you.'

 

Bloody good on ya mate, coming from a current smoker, who knows what it's doing to him, who has tried to give up multiple times but has stupidly gone back to it because the "will to quit" wasn't fully there I know how hard it can be, People who can and have given up the way you did are an insperation for me and hopefully one day I'll have that moment of clearity.

 

A.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The choedan kal was destroyed for one reason and one reason alone.

 

 

To give the bad guys a chance. Even if it's a lost cause in the end.

 

 

C'mon now. just imagine the kal in rand's hands and 50 million trillion shadowspawn fly out the blight. BOOOOOOOOOM!!!

Dead. Rand will be like 'is that all you got shaitan?

 

so you gotta give the bad guys a chance man. The dragon reborn is a fair man after all.

The bad guys seem to already have a chance. The Dark One alone might be a challenge even if the Choedan Kal still existed.

Perhaps even with that 3rd male sa'angreal.

 

When the Dark One comes out, his powers/abilities might be much greater than they are now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The choedan kal was destroyed for one reason and one reason alone.

 

 

To give the bad guys a chance. Even if it's a lost cause in the end.

 

 

C'mon now. just imagine the kal in rand's hands and 50 million trillion shadowspawn fly out the blight. BOOOOOOOOOM!!!

Dead. Rand will be like 'is that all you got shaitan?

 

so you gotta give the bad guys a chance man. The dragon reborn is a fair man after all.

The bad guys seem to already have a chance. The Dark One alone might be a challenge even if the Choedan Kal still existed.

Perhaps even with that 3rd male sa'angreal.

 

When the Dark One comes out, his powers/abilities might be much greater than they are now.

 

 

aaah you see but thats where you are making a wrong assumption. Because the dark one will never be free of his prison. If he did then even the kal would make no difference. The entire world will be screwed. Such an ending will never happen. The wheel of time is all about good endings

 

the dark one will be fighting behind a prison with a small tiny hole in it.Not enough to make any difference.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The choedan kal was destroyed for one reason and one reason alone.

 

 

To give the bad guys a chance. Even if it's a lost cause in the end.

 

 

C'mon now. just imagine the kal in rand's hands and 50 million trillion shadowspawn fly out the blight. BOOOOOOOOOM!!!

Dead. Rand will be like 'is that all you got shaitan?

 

so you gotta give the bad guys a chance man. The dragon reborn is a fair man after all.

 

Hahaha!

 

Yeah, I guess, had he held on to it, we would HAVE to have some new corrupting element in it, or maybe it would get stolen, or something.

I agree that power is not what will win it against the Big Bad in the end, but if he could just wipe out every other baddy and effectively end the threat and tension of war without a thought, it would greatly devalue the whole Last-Battle-to-decide-the-fate-of-the-world thing.

 

 

you got thousands of armies, aiel, channellers of both female and male under the command of the forces of the light.

 

The baddies got trollocs,fades, dreadlords and couple of worthless forsaken. They are outnumbered badly. Havin the kal in hands of the light would make the last battle the quickest one in the history of WOT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

In political game theory, since the cold war, there has been a concept called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. the Nuke=CK analogy is good but it doesn't account for the policy of not using nukes. CK leaves fallout ala balefire not radiation. The key difference is that in randland there is only one nuke/CK. From this point of view it may be reasonable to argue that from a strategic point of view, he just screwed the pooch.

There is a dynamic in RJ's books between typical moral choices and being a good leader. the good leader makes the choices no one else can/should. including ignoring the dead or going to war. I believe he destroyed the CK because the nature of the tool violated the nature of the thing he is attempting to save, it may be best to have the DO destroy the world rather then have the temptation of doing so himself or on accident.IF he did/does destory the wheel with the CK what would be the difference between Rand and the DO?

MAD wouldn't be lose-lose scenario in DO vs. Rand fight, because destruction of creation is DO's plan anyway.

 

Anyhow, Rand is destined to die in Last Battle, so if he carried CK around with him when he waltzed in there and then gets killed, CK would just lie on the ground for anyone to pick it up. If any of the bad guys picked it up, it wouldn't matter if DO got owned by him since the bad guys would still rape the world with CK.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the dark one will be fighting behind a prison with a small tiny hole in it.
Do you have confirmation of that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the dark one will be fighting behind a prison with a small tiny hole in it.
Do you have confirmation of that?

 

 

yes. the dark one will never win. how do i know that? outtrigger novels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rand has not only had been about to wipe out hundreds of thousands of innocents in and around Ebou Dar to drive the Seanchan back, a realization which terrified him, but he himself had been one step away from completely destroying reality because of his despair/frustration etc...

 

It doesn't take some great logical leap to figure out why Rand would want to destroy it given what could be done with it, not just by others who get a hold of it, but by himself, because he very nearly did do what he feared and gave into the Dark One's plan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so if zen rand had the power of the kal in his hands right now, he's going to turn to despair and frustration again lol?

 

A sangreal is a sangreal. It amplies the power and gives an aura of invincibility. Nothing more. You won't turn to padan fain if you are channelling the kal.

 

The kal has been taken out because the baddies would be at a serious disadvantage. You would need the great lord himself in battle to face someone who has the kal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The CK was destroyed because it was simply too much power for one individual to have. We saw how easy it was for the Shadow to free Semirhage. The could attain it in a similar manner.

 

Secondly, any usage of the CK is an instant beacon and bulls-eye as it alerts every male channeler where Rand is exactly.

 

Thirdly, the CK was never necessary. It was not needed to seal the bore in the War of Power nor is it apparently needed now. Rand notes that it's not referenced in the Prophecies in "Veins of Gold."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the dark one will be fighting behind a prison with a small tiny hole in it.
Do you have confirmation of that?
yes. the dark one will never win. how do i know that? outtrigger novels.
The Dark One not winning does not confirm from where he fights. And the outrigger novels only confirm that he does not win this time.

By "confirmation" I meant that the author confirmed it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's confirmed by the very nature of the struggle. If the Dark One is already entirely free, he's already won. There's no stuffing his finger back through the bore and fixing it. Unless you believe that Rand will create an entirely new Pattern to contain the free Dark One. And last I checked, Rand is no creator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My guess would be there would be like a partial release during Tarmon Gaidon; like the Dark One possessing a body (miasma, creature, person, statue, etc). Dark side winning Tarmon Gaidon, Dark One becoming entirely free.

The Creator interfering sometime during Tarmon Gaidon might be another possibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...