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Why was rand in TAR atop the dragonmount?


thevillagecouncil
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During Perrin's perspective when he goes to the dragonmount, he sees rand there in TAR, but rand is still awake. So rand shouldn't have been able to be in the dream, even if faintly. What affect did being in the dream world have on Rand during that moment? Hopper is able to show memories of AoL, Birgitte has all the knowledge of her previous lives while in TAR. Could it be that somehow Rand's soul was able to see back into his memories of his past lives because part of him was in the dream world?

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If i remember correctly Perrin also see's Rand while in the wolf dream in "The Dragon Reborn." While trying to save Faile from the Headgehog. My guess is Rand, or his soul is somehow always visible in TAR.

 

But nothing moved expect himself and hopper. Except i think that was Rand. It had only been a glimpse. A man running as if chasing someone. It could not be him, it couldn't but i think it was.

 

Sorry if grammer in the quote is wrong, i used the audiobook to get reference.

Edited by sludgevohaul
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That was real, sludge, he followed ishamael into TAR without having any idea what it was, and he instinctively defeated all of Ishamael's attempts to turn TAR against him. Perrin just happened to glimpse him because they were in the same area.

 

As for why does he see Rand then: That was arguably one of the most important moments in all of history, the Dragon deciding if he would save the world or destroy it, it is only fitting that it is reflected in TAR, the place where the lines between worlds blur. I don't believe he was there in any sense that he could tell what was going on, or even had a physical or spiritual connection. It was simply the importance of the event was so powerful it was reflected in the place where all worlds are reflected.

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Just thinking now, his has been pointed out as a unique soul (one spun out for a specific purpose). And considering that moment was him either destroying existence or becoming one with the earth, since TAR is a reflection of the world, he would manifest there too? And the darkness that was threatening to overwhelm him manifested 'physically' in TAR too?

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the pattern was trying so hard to stop him from destroying it, the reflection(TAR) became strained

Edited by Elmandarb
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TAR reflects things that are in place for a while. It also reflects things that are really important in weird ways (I think). I think this is that - either Rand was in place for a while, or, more likely, it was because of how important the event was (like the whole Rand in the Sky thing from TGH).

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I was thinking it was like a vision. Perrin has these as well in his dream. Granted it was something that was happening at the time or damn near it. Still a vision a way. Sort of like when Rand was born, (can't remeber the name) had the fortelling. Well it wasn't really a fortelling if it was happening right then. Rand more or less writes the pattern around him, so it would be reasonable to assume that this would affect visions and fortellings as he made choices.

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I was thinking it was like a vision. Perrin has these as well in his dream. Granted it was something that was happening at the time or damn near it. Still a vision a way. Sort of like when Rand was born, (can't remeber the name) had the fortelling. Well it wasn't really a fortelling if it was happening right then. Rand more or less writes the pattern around him, so it would be reasonable to assume that this would affect visions and fortellings as he made choices.
That seems unlikely. Remember that at the end of TGS Rand felt the barriers to his past lives breaking apart so that he had access to their memories, which sounds very like what happens to Heroes of the Horn in TAR.

 

Either "the Wheel did it" a la the sky-fight at Falme or Rand having entered TAR unconsciously while awake seems the best explanation to me.

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Could be as simple as Rand, Perrin and Matt's ta'veren link to each other allows them to see each other in the waking world from TAR.

 

That ta'veren link/swirling colours is most likely a link through TAR to begin with.

 

Remember that when RJ was asked why there were no swirling colours for Perrin in TAR when he thought of Rand, RJ didn't say it didn't work, he said it didn't work the same.

 

EDIT: I was mistaken, BS did indeed say they don't work in TAR but I still don't think that changes my theory.

Edited by Finnssss
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Well Im sure Brandon said the swirling colors dont work in T'A'R. On the other hand though I thought it was more to do with Perrins Dreaming focussing on Rands present. I didnt think Rand was actually in T'A'R, I just thought Perrin was seeing what was happening at the time. Remember that Egwene doesnt just Dream the future; her Dream of thirteen midnight towers at the start of ToM portrayed the Forsaken from the beginning of the story, including Moridins return and rise to power. Theres no reason to think Perrin cant do the same with his own Dreaming. Him seeing Rand and Moridin doesnt necessarily mean Moridin was attacking Rand there and then in T'A'R; it could just be a metaphor like all the rest, showing that Rand keeps surviving Moridins attempt to turn him or whatever.

Edited by Drekka Mort
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As for why does he see Rand then: That was arguably one of the most important moments in all of history, the Dragon deciding if he would save the world or destroy it, it is only fitting that it is reflected in TAR, the place where the lines between worlds blur. I don't believe he was there in any sense that he could tell what was going on, or even had a physical or spiritual connection. It was simply the importance of the event was so powerful it was reflected in the place where all worlds are reflected.

That's my theory as well.

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i have said it in other places, but here.. I'll post my theory on it here also. the warp. the twisting of light/dark around rand. there is a great storm and much darkness around rand in TAR and then he decides and chooses the light, and the storm vanishes and light appears around him, if you follow the timeline, before he decides he has a crazy dark aura of "warped air" around him. then he decides and the warp stays but it turns LIGHT instead of DARK. he then does some things that seem very T'A'R ish. such as the apple trees in chapter one. this just seemed like something that you would normally see only in T'A'R. anyways my theory is that he is so tavaren that he is manifesting in both places at once. it gives him his memories, and it gives him some super cool powers that previously only certain people had in certain places, this would also explain why whatever happens with the DRAGONS arc in the real world reflects in ALL the worlds as well. tear/rip/and otherwise destroy my theory now.

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IMO it's the 3-way link between the lads that facilitated this little oddity. Not that it would BE an oddity if the lads knew how to use it (their link) completely. Keep in mind the " Three become one" phrase in whatever prophecy it comes from. It could well pertain to Rand, Mat and Perrin (as easily as the generally assumed use of Callandor) purposely sharing/using their link to advantage as a means to communicate instantly or even overcome the "fog of war". I'm convinced it's going to be Huge in Tarmon Gaidon, by using that link seamlessly so that it appears they're "of one mind".

 

I think "need" also played a role, whether Perrin consciously used "need" or not. Perrin (and the wolves) is probably the most accomplished TAR user currently, in some ways more than Chosen and Slayer. And he Needed to be there, needed to see what the wolves were all so interested in. They "felt" something big about to happen, then saw it and as he tuned into them and what they felt and saw, he did too.

 

Added to that, the power Rand was wielding seems to me would likely effect all planes of reality especially to someone with Perrin's skills and the link to Rand in close proximity.

Edited by Auld Manriva
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Well Im sure Brandon said the swirling colors dont work in T'A'R. On the other hand though I thought it was more to do with Perrins Dreaming focussing on Rands present. I didnt think Rand was actually in T'A'R, I just thought Perrin was seeing what was happening at the time. Remember that Egwene doesnt just Dream the future; her Dream of thirteen midnight towers at the start of ToM portrayed the Forsaken from the beginning of the story, including Moridins return and rise to power. Theres no reason to think Perrin cant do the same with his own Dreaming. Him seeing Rand and Moridin doesnt necessarily mean Moridin was attacking Rand there and then in T'A'R; it could just be a metaphor like all the rest, showing that Rand keeps surviving Moridins attempt to turn him or whatever.

Perrin has had these visions before in Hopper's presence and notes that Hopper wouldn't be able to see it. This isn't the case here, where all the wolves can see what is happening.

 

My own theory is that this is a Pattern Level Event similar to the one at Falme where Rand's battle with Ishamael is viewable in the sky. That's the Wheel's way of declaring the true Dragon Reborn. Similarly, here we have Rand becoming the Dragon.

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Rand is dressed in an outfit different in TAR than in the real world. On Dragonmount he is wearing that brown cloak but in TAR Perrin sees him in a black jacket with red trim.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Like others have said, I always assumed it was because it was such an important event, so important that a ghostly reflection was made in the TAR. He wasn't like he wasn't there in person. At that moment he was the converging point of the universe, a single point that the pattern has been leading to for a long time, (where everything comes down to one thing, life or death) so in a way, since that moment was inevitable to happen, that that entire moment was totally fixed, and was always going to come down to that, and the TAR shows FIXED things right. Unfixed things either move or are simpley not there. These conditions made it posible for Rands VoG moment to be viewed in the third constant of the WoT world (as the fixed thing is the main conditions for something to show consistantly in the TAR), and so since rand was linked to the TAR, in that one moment of reverlation, where the pattern was not destroyed, the knowledge that is saved/stored in a way in the TAR was acsessible to rand at that moment (even though rand didn't know he was in the TAR). That's why in ToM, Rand doesn't metion/remeber the older past lives as the fixed moment in space and time is over and rand is no longer linked to the TAR and so is know longer linked to the memoeries of rands older pastlives.

 

 

I hope i explained what i think properally... i tend to be confusing see :happy:

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That was real, sludge, he followed ishamael into TAR without having any idea what it was, and he instinctively defeated all of Ishamael's attempts to turn TAR against him. Perrin just happened to glimpse him because they were in the same area.

 

As for why does he see Rand then: That was arguably one of the most important moments in all of history, the Dragon deciding if he would save the world or destroy it, it is only fitting that it is reflected in TAR, the place where the lines between worlds blur. I don't believe he was there in any sense that he could tell what was going on, or even had a physical or spiritual connection. It was simply the importance of the event was so powerful it was reflected in the place where all worlds are reflected.

Complete agreement *bows seanchan style (ow my head!) It also makes it possible for Perrin to know he's there, to fit the story better.

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just like to chime in my suport for haloun's take, in my mind it forshadows what the Dragon needs to be, present and effecting all of reality(the patern. I think the horn of Valere will be needed to somehow weaken the final barriers between worlds allowing rand to effect reality the way the world of dreams can be effected -by shear will. though how the sword of light and Perrin's hammer come in I'm still not sure.

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thank you hyronimus as for the difference of what he is wearing in TAR how often do we see clothes change simply because of the mood someone is in. elayne, egwene, nynaeve, siuan, they all have instances where they are thinking of a particular guy and then they realize that they are wearing little more than lingerie. then they fix it, it all depends on the mood and what they are thinking about, not what they are wearing in real life.

 

edited for better relevance by haloun.

Edited by haloun
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@ bookworm 101 actually he does remeber his past lives still, or at least the last, most recent one. at least that is all that he talks about.

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Hey! Maybe the brown coat/cloak is from the world of dreams and exists as a projection of Rands new state of mind. Ha or note, it IS strange that it's so often mentioned (aside from the obvious pop culture refrence).

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@ bookworm 101 actually he does remeber his past lives still, or at least the last, most recent one. at least that is all that he talks about.

 

 

Ah, i didn't expain this, i thought it but forgot to include it, soz. I meant that at that moment he remebered lots of past lives (because of the connection to the TAR) but now, it seems he only remebeers LTT, otherwise to caudswane, he would have said he is thousands of years old (and that really would have put her in her place :tongue: ), but since he said he was 400 (don't remeber the exact figure), we can assume that he is only including LTT life span because he only remebers to LLT life. Like he remebers LTT because the madness had already broken the barrier between the memories so it would be natural for those memories to be retained as they were already there in the first place in the form of our mad friend LTT, but since there is no LLT anymore, rand remebers the memories at will as they are not sperated by LLT

 

again i haven't explained that well but i was never very good at english :blush:

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Is this the second time perrin needs to be there for rand or something very bad is going to happen? you know mins viewing.

I don't think so. Didn't she say women who channel would be doing the 'very bad' thing to Rand? I hope Eggy isn't involved in that, I would like to end the series with her back to being tolerable.

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