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Where is Demandred's Army coming from?


Lord D
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  1. 1. Where is Demandred's Army coming from?

  2. 2. If you selected "Other" above, where do you think Dem's army is?

    • The Black Tower
    • Murandy
    • Seanchan
    • Some combination of all the above
    • Still other


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Why is there no "black tower" option on the pole? I still believe it's Madmen, but if it's anywhere else I believe the black tower is still a viable option (just because Taim is Demendred doesn't mean Demendred is not controlled by Taim)

Cat-Sister, because I did the poll, and didn't (and still don't) think the BT is at all viable. The Shadow already has his people at the BT, with Taim and probably Moridin over Taim, so there's no need to put another Forsaken there when that guy would be far better used stirring up trouble outside Randland.

Except for the fact that Moridin was still dead when the Black Tower was started, and the fact that Demandred gives orders to Asha'man. Taim might not be precisely under his thumb any more, but that does not mean that the Black Tower is not an important part of his plans.

Another thing is that I feel that the red-veiled Aiel are connected to Dem's army, and they certainly don't appear to be Dark Asha'man.

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Nevertheless, the poll is flawed because you based it on your own assumptions rather than including all of the theories. There is no evidence whatsoever that Demandred is involved with the red-veiled 'Aiel', but there is plenty of evidence that he has been involved with the Black Tower.

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Nevertheless, the poll is flawed because you based it on your own assumptions rather than including all of the theories. There is no evidence whatsoever that Demandred is involved with the red-veiled 'Aiel', but there is plenty of evidence that he has been involved with the Black Tower.

If the red-veiled Aiel are NOT part of Dem's army, then who are they? If they're a gang of DF Aiel living in the Blight, why haven't we heard from them before now? As I pointed out in my original post, it would strain belief to have a gang of DF Aiel in the Blight and not have conflict between them and the real Aiel, which would have been well known by now. Also, there's the eye colour discrepancy. It's far too much of a coincidence that these guys show up when we would expect Dem's army to show up.

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Nevertheless, the poll is flawed because you based it on your own assumptions rather than including all of the theories. There is no evidence whatsoever that Demandred is involved with the red-veiled 'Aiel', but there is plenty of evidence that he has been involved with the Black Tower.

If the red-veiled Aiel are NOT part of Dem's army, then who are they? If they're a gang of DF Aiel living in the Blight, why haven't we heard from them before now? As I pointed out in my original post, it would strain belief to have a gang of DF Aiel in the Blight and not have conflict between them and the real Aiel, which would have been well known by now. Also, there's the eye colour discrepancy. It's far too much of a coincidence that these guys show up when we would expect Dem's army to show up.

 

If they are his army why are a few of them just off on their own like that? Personally, I think they are something related to Fain.

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I made this post in other Demandred thread... So here is my take on things:

 

I could see Demandred collecting an army from Land of the Madmen. A primitive culture could be rather easy to turn on your side, say, by pretending you're a God. And since there are both, female and male channelers, they make a wonderful army. They'd follow you anywhere because they think you're a God, thus fulfilling the "My rule is secure", and they also wouldn't care, or be aware of the fact, that they are fighting for the evil side, since they are simply following their God.

 

Also, the red-veiled aiel being from Land of the Madmen would make sense from Demandred's point of view. He wants to beat LTT at everything, to prove he is better than him. And since Aiel are 'The People of the Dragon', Demandred trying to create 'The People of the Demandred' in the image of the Aiel would make sense.

 

 

 

 

Although, as others have pointed out, I suppose it would be weird to introduce an army from a place that has never been mentioned in the novels in the last book... But meh, there's not many places left to gather a decent army from.

Edited by Ananta
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Nevertheless, the poll is flawed because you based it on your own assumptions rather than including all of the theories. There is no evidence whatsoever that Demandred is involved with the red-veiled 'Aiel', but there is plenty of evidence that he has been involved with the Black Tower.

If the red-veiled Aiel are NOT part of Dem's army, then who are they? If they're a gang of DF Aiel living in the Blight, why haven't we heard from them before now? As I pointed out in my original post, it would strain belief to have a gang of DF Aiel in the Blight and not have conflict between them and the real Aiel, which would have been well known by now. Also, there's the eye colour discrepancy. It's far too much of a coincidence that these guys show up when we would expect Dem's army to show up.

 

If they are his army why are a few of them just off on their own like that? Personally, I think they are something related to Fain.

Armies have scout units, and these guys are probably either scouts, or the first ones through the Traveling gate.

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I voted for the Blight. Why? Well, there's multiple reasons...

 

 

1. The other Chosen Forsaken had already claimed various lands:

Sammael: Illian

Messana: White Tower

Aginor and Balthemal: Apparently hunting for the Eye of the World (After resurection, Aran'gar took root in Salidar, and Osan'gar lived in the Black Tower)

Semhirage: Seanchan

Be'lal: Tear

Rahvin: Andor

Lanfear and Asmodean: Tailing Rand after Dragon Reborn

Ishmael: Tailing Rand prior to Dragon Reborn

Graendal: Arad Doman

Moghedien: She was originally in Tanchico, though traveled afterward. No set location.

 

 

 

So, you see... Many lands were already claimed. We know that the Chosen preferred to stay in Randland, due to the DO's imminent arrival landing there first. This leaves limited space for Demandred, who I honestly can't see being able to rule so close to the other chosen. This rules out pretty much all of the southern lands. Now, we can assume that Demandred isn't impersonating anyone, so I guess that rules out the Boderlands. That leaves the Blight and beyond. I think that Demandred set up rule in the Blasted Lands or beyond, and began building his army. Perhaps the red-viels are male aiel who could channel, who went north into hte blight?

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If they're a gang of DF Aiel living in the Blight, why haven't we heard from them before now?

 

He leaned toward me and whispered these words that will be forever are etched in my mind, “There’s a (Blank) in the Blight.” His revelation took me completely by surprise so I asked, “There’s a what in the Blight?” He repeated, “There’s a (Blank) in the Blight and no one knows about it, not even Harriet.”

 

Not saying that this has to do with the Aiel but I am sure there are few things we haven't heard from as of yet.

Edited by Suttree
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If they're a gang of DF Aiel living in the Blight, why haven't we heard from them before now?

 

He leaned toward me and whispered these words that will be forever are etched in my mind, “There’s a (Blank) in the Blight.” His revelation took me completely by surprise so I asked, “There’s a what in the Blight?” He repeated, “There’s a (Blank) in the Blight and no one knows about it, not even Harriet.”

 

Not saying that this has to do with the Aiel but I am sure there are few things we haven't heard from as of yet.

Obviously there are going to be surprises, but I don't think the red-veiled Aiel are part of it. As I argued im my original post, if there were a clan of evil Aiel in the Blight, wouldn't they be constantly champing at the bit to make war on the real Aiel.

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isnt moridin organizing the blight now? that would mean demandred isnt up there, because why would moridin take control of those armies if demandred (a much better general) has control. So thats ruled out.

 

I believe its murandy. and the red veils are soul swapped aiel with myrrdraal (just to toss a wrench into all the speculating. after all myrrdraal births are very low and I think if they where equated with humans the myrrdraal would be a channeller. which allows for myrrdraal soul swapping with a channelling aiel to make a completely loyal channeller (and hte filed teeth are to try and gain some measure of their fear factor back))

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I believe its murandy. and the red veils are soul swapped aiel with myrrdraal (just to toss a wrench into all the speculating. after all myrrdraal births are very low and I think if they where equated with humans the myrrdraal would be a channeller. which allows for myrrdraal soul swapping with a channelling aiel to make a completely loyal channeller (and hte filed teeth are to try and gain some measure of their fear factor back))

Murandy doesn't seem important enough to have a really big army, and there wouldn't be any channelers which are a must for WoT armies to be able to stand against enemy channelers. As to your Myrrdraal theory, this is one of the craziest theories ever. I don't think Shadowspawn have souls, which means they can't be channelers.

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I believe its murandy. and the red veils are soul swapped aiel with myrrdraal (just to toss a wrench into all the speculating. after all myrrdraal births are very low and I think if they where equated with humans the myrrdraal would be a channeller. which allows for myrrdraal soul swapping with a channelling aiel to make a completely loyal channeller (and hte filed teeth are to try and gain some measure of their fear factor back))

Murandy doesn't seem important enough to have a really big army, and there wouldn't be any channelers which are a must for WoT armies to be able to stand against enemy channelers. As to your Myrrdraal theory, this is one of the craziest theories ever. I don't think Shadowspawn have souls, which means they can't be channelers.

shadowspawn have souls, theres a quote from rj saying they do, its just that their pathetic twisted things. I think all living constructs had to have souls put into them anyways.

 

murandy has significant strategic value, cuold be used to put 'sleeper' cells into the light sides armies and have them turn and start killing everyone destroying moral, it can even explain the attack on General Tylees forces since the shadowspawn could have moved throguh there into altara.

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The attack on Tylee's forces is explained by the Waygate at Barashta (Ebou Dar), and the fact that Graendal was given Shadowspawn to create chaos (presumably others were as well).

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It was a pretty dumb move by Greandal then. I mean the attack basically alerted the seanchan to the fact that the Last Battle was on their doorstep. The seanchan were already causing plenty of chaos by refusing to work with the rest of lightsiders unless they all bow down to the empress.

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Well, Graendal used her Shadowspawn on Perrin, so it wasn't her. And I doubt that anyone is clueless to the fact that the Last Battle is on the doorstep.

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Well, Graendal used her Shadowspawn on Perrin, so it wasn't her. And I doubt that anyone is clueless to the fact that the Last Battle is on the doorstep.

 

Well whoever did it then. And they might realize that the Last Battle is coming, but having trollocs, which many believed were simply legends, actually attack you is bound to make you think that perhaps now is not the best time to try and conquer the world. Why risk your enemies uniting together?

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Because of the unanticpated number of "other" votes for the 1st question, I've now added a 2nd question that asks other votes to specify where they think Dem's army is from. However, I think it's very unlikely Dem's army is from anywhere in Randland, Seanchan or the Waste. The major reason for this is that it's very hard to believe that the red-veiled Aiel would turn up independently of Dem's army; it's much more probable that these Aiel are scout units for the army that follows. Clearly, these Aiel are not from either the Waste, Randland or Seanchan, so if they are connected with Dem's army, these places are ruled out. In addition, there are problems with the most popular choices "other" choices, which I will explain below.

 

The Black Tower: This theory seems to owe much to the old Dem = Taim theory, which is obviously wrong given the cleansing chapter in WH when Dem fails to recognise Flinn. Surely if Dem was Taim's boss, Taim could have informed Dem about Rand's favourite Asha'man. This theory also requires Dem and Taim to be in the same place; it's much better for the DO for Dem to be doing something different than Taim.

 

Murandy: It just isn't important enough, and in particular there are no channelers there. Also, we haven't really heard of anything funny happening there. Channelers are absolutely vital in armies.

 

Seanchan: It was Semi's domain, and the Seanchan were in complete control of their own continent prior to the civil strife there now. It's dangerous to try to set up your own little demesne in civil war, as you can get invaded. Dem also probably wouldn't like being near female channelers that much.

 

Some combination: This seems like a cop-out option to me. Yes, Dem probably has a few things going outside his main force, but where is his main force?

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Because of the unanticpated number of "other" votes for the 1st question, I've now added a 2nd question that asks other votes to specify where they think Dem's army is from. However, I think it's very unlikely Dem's army is from anywhere in Randland, Seanchan or the Waste. The major reason for this is that it's very hard to believe that the red-veiled Aiel would turn up independently of Dem's army; it's much more probable that these Aiel are scout units for the army that follows. Clearly, these Aiel are not from either the Waste, Randland or Seanchan, so if they are connected with Dem's army, these places are ruled out. In addition, there are problems with the most popular choices "other" choices, which I will explain below.

 

why would they have to be demandreds, they could easily be moridin, whome we know is marshalling forces in teh blight.

 

and suddenly bringing in an army from some other place we dont know about would be a cop out in my book.

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I voted Murandy. I think it likely that Demandred is involved in the Black Tower, and I also think it likely he's got still more things going on, but I don't think that's what he was referring to when he said his armies were gathered and ready for war.

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They. Are. Not. Aiel!

 

I tend to agree with you but I guess we'll see. They could be decendants (sp?) of some of the Aiel men that could channel that got abducted in the Blight and inter-bred with other races. This would explain the twisted Aiel attributes with the dark eyes.

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They. Are. Not. Aiel!

 

I tend to agree with you but I guess we'll see. They could be decendants (sp?) of some of the Aiel men that could channel that got abducted in the Blight and inter-bred with other races. This would explain the twisted Aiel attributes with the dark eyes.

By definition that would also make them not-Aiel ;-)

 

My biggest gripe with the constat referencing of the Red-Veils as Aieal is that it is clearly retracted by the character who mistakenly identifies them as such.

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I usually try to refer to them as the red-veiled 'Aiel'. They might possibly be Fain's Whitecloaks or something similar, but I am thinking it's more likely that they are Aiel who have been corrupted in some way, unless they are deliberately attempting to defame the Aiel. Cross-breeding is also a possibility, but there is some Aiel influence in there somewhere obviously.

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I usually try to refer to them as the red-veiled 'Aiel'. They might possibly be Fain's Whitecloaks or something similar, but I am thinking it's more likely that they are Aiel who have been corrupted in some way, unless they are deliberately attempting to defame the Aiel. Cross-breeding is also a possibility, but there is some Aiel influence in there somewhere obviously.

I'm pretty sure that they're not Aiel myself, but referring to them as "red veiled Aiel" or the time is a mouthful. I think they're from the Land of Madmen, and are the descendents of people who used to serve the Aes Sedai, the same way the Aiel we know well are. Obviously, their development was very different to that of the Aiel we know.

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