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Theory on Egwene's Dream and the Seanchan


gambril
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After reading a post that vaguely mentioned it and pointing out some aspects, I think I have a general idea on what's going to happen at the FOM (I think of this dream in this context, mainly following TGS/TOM). So here I go...

 

In CoT chapter 20, starting on page 596 of my paperback version it reads, "She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounds her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

 

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well been a mile off for all the chance she had of reashing it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under fingers.

 

 

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

 

*End of Dream*

 

So I'll attempt to explain my reasoning on what parts I think seem pretty clear to us by now and inject conjecture on most the rest so bear with me :biggrin:

 

The dream begins with Egwene struggling up a narrow, rocky cliff. I think this rocky cliff represents what she will be facing on the FOM. The narrow, rocky cliff represents how tenous the situation at FOM will be for her. She will have to tread very carefully. The towering cliff represents how hard it's going to be to oppose Rand. Further evidence of this in the first paragraph are the stones littered along the ridge that could crumble beneath her feet - this would be all the leaders supporting Rand after he explains his reasoning. The last line of the feeling of pushing and pulling carts represents Egwene trying to pursuade all the leaders and allies of Rand.

 

The second paragraph of this dreams begins with Egwene falling abruptly from the cliff and having to hold on by her fingertips. This would represent everyone, or near everyone agreeing with Rand's plan and she's desperately trying to find something, anything to hold onto at this point, most likely to maintain her position and authority as Amyrlin image of control at this meeting it being shattered. Her fall from the cliff ends with her finding a tiny crevice, holding on by her fingertips. Going by this reasoning, she doesn't completely lose her position in the meeting and finds someone, anyone to support her. Or perhaps she changes her tactics and buys some time. This fall 'wrenching' her arms reeks of a big slap of humility that will be very hard for Egwene to take it seems as well.

 

As she's hanging on by her fingertips, she feels no strength in her arms - as in, she feels completely defeated and feels like she's just going to fall from the cliff completely. This would represent her postion as Amyrlin I feel and her losing it in so far as her image of what it represents. The dagger feeling under her fingers on the edge of the crevice would represent how hard this humbling proccess will be for her and how tenous her position was made at the meeting perhaps. And/or news has arrived during the FOM meeting that sends her into great despair - Shadow launching their War full on (TOM Epilogue).

 

 

 

Unto the third paragraph (which I don't feel I understand much off, but will throw out some ideas just to try to fully flesh it out) and we have the Seanchan woman appearing. What this tells us following the previous reasioning is this will obviously happen as Egwene is at her lowest point. What's interesting in the third paragraph of this dream to me is that by the description of the Seanchan woman deftly coming down the cliff to reach Egwene out of the clouds. So why deftly and why clouds?

 

She's coming down from clouds (representing arrogance, thinking her view is the only way etc.) after some sort of assumed epiphany - perhaps coming from Trolloc invasion right on the heels of Seanchan occuping the Tower perhaps or some sort. Or possibly Tuon has had the realization that her Prophecies aren't going down like she's assumed they will and now this is the only way to save her Empire. This would go with her face wavering respresting her reluctance to accept any channeler (because after all this dream represents the Seanchan woman realizing that only together can they reach the top now - The Light). And the sword seemed solid as stone because despite whatever revulsion they have to ever allying with any channeler, the epiphanies told Tuon that only together, with the support of the Seanchan military (sword) can they possibly have a chance at this point. And finally and the most obvious of it all is the last statement by Tuon that only together can they reach the top together, the Light.

 

So to sum up, Egwene's goign to have tread very carefully at the FOM and will still fall and be at her lowest point. It's at this point the Seanchan woman comes and says they need to work together to reach the top (win).

 

This all assumes this represents the meeting at the FOM for Egwene and the following alliance with the Seanchan. And of course the Seanchan woman representing Tuon of course, but I'm pretty convinced at this point that this is what it's representing. Thoughts and ideas are greatly appreciated and welcomed :smile:

 

P.S. sorry for not knowing how to quote directly from the book as it's more coherent to read that way, but I couldn't figure that out. So if someone knows and would point out how to do that would be great, thanks :tongue:

Edited by gambril
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Further musing on the last part of the dream and the Sword...

 

The sword on her back never wavers and seems solid as stone. So why does it seem solid as stone and never wavers? It would seem that if Tuon is coming down from the clouds to ally herself with Egwene and the White Tower, then Matrim will be completely "strapped to her back" and never waver as the dream indicates. Matrim could be represented as a Sword in that he will be Tuon's General. It could also not mean Matrim at all and just represents the Seanchan military because that will be firmly strapped to her back, but the word stone in at all makes me believe it's actually Matrim. After all, Matrim could be described as solid as stone in his bullheadedness and support of Tuon :biggrin:

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Further connection between that dream and Tuon:

“You played very poorly toward the end.” Tuon murmured, frowning thoughtfully at the board, now divided evenly between the control of black stones and white. He could all but see her start trying to work out what they had been talking about when his poor play began. Talking with her was like walking a crumbling ledge across the face of a cliff. One misstep, and Mat Cauthon would be as dead as last year’s mutton. Only, he had to walk that ledge.
A very strange metaphor to use if it isn't a sly bit of foreshadowing. Egeanin just doesn't fit.

 

Foreshadowing of how Mat (and the Horn, and Justice) will be key in the alliance between Rand and Tuon:

Do you have a Horn of Valere to sell? Or mayhap it do be the Dragon’s sword?

 

The Dream of a Seanchan handing Egwene an a'dam comes into play here, too. I'm nearly convinced the collar will be for Rand. A Domination band, a circle of three wielding Callandor, and the three shall become one.

 

I'm not sure the solidity of the sword has great significance. Perhaps it just means that the Ever Victorious Army will follow the Empress.

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Further connection between that dream and Tuon:

“You played very poorly toward the end.” Tuon murmured, frowning thoughtfully at the board, now divided evenly between the control of black stones and white. He could all but see her start trying to work out what they had been talking about when his poor play began. Talking with her was like walking a crumbling ledge across the face of a cliff. One misstep, and Mat Cauthon would be as dead as last year’s mutton. Only, he had to walk that ledge.
A very strange metaphor to use if it isn't a sly bit of foreshadowing. Egeanin just doesn't fit.

 

Foreshadowing of how Mat (and the Horn, and Justice) will be key in the alliance between Rand and Tuon:

Do you have a Horn of Valere to sell? Or mayhap it do be the Dragon’s sword?

 

The Dream of a Seanchan handing Egwene an a'dam comes into play here, too. I'm nearly convinced the collar will be for Rand. A Domination band, a circle of three wielding Callandor, and the three shall become one.

 

I'm not sure the solidity of the sword has great significance. Perhaps it just means that the Ever Victorious Army will follow the Empress.

 

Heh, that's an awesome pick up and connection to foreshadowing of the dream. The words I bolded and the the dream go very well in hand, bloody awesome!

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The sword is Justice, because no matter who the Seanchan Empress is, the return of Justice would assure an alliance between Seanchan and Dragon.

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This is a joke surely right?

 

Let's see, they leash women like animals because they can channel. They raid the white tower, killing scores of people including aes sedai and tower guard. They let loose bloodknives to kill as many aes sedai as they can. infact some were close to killing the amyrlin in her sleep.

 

And you expect egwene to enter into an agreement with them after all that?

I would rather egwene balefired tuon instead of accepting any help from the slave empire

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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Foreshadowing of how Mat (and the Horn, and Justice) will be key in the alliance between Rand and Tuon:

Do you have a Horn of Valere to sell? Or mayhap it do be the Dragon’s sword?

 

The Dream of a Seanchan handing Egwene an a'dam comes into play here, too. I'm nearly convinced the collar will be for Rand. A Domination band, a circle of three wielding Callandor, and the three shall become one.

 

I'm not sure the solidity of the sword has great significance. Perhaps it just means that the Ever Victorious Army will follow the Empress.

 

 

 

I missed this and didn't think about it enough the first time. The first three sentences I agree with. The sequence in which they're mentioned would also seem to subtly foreshadow in how they will play out, plot and timewine wise. As in, Tuon will get the Horn first and the second piece to solidify this alliance will be Justice.

 

This second part terrifies me though. You think Tuon has a Domination Band? My memory on the circulation of these is fuzzy. So you think Tuon's going to offer Egwene a Domination Band and she will accept this as Tuon's piece to solidify their alliance? I can't see Egwene agreeing to this though, no matter what desperation she's going to be in after the FOM meeting. I can't see them getting away with this at all either. Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Cadsuane, Aviendha, Min, Thom, and Faile most importantly and promently, I can't see ever allowing them to get away this.

 

On the other hand, it's hard to imagine that Egwene would accept using a Domination Band with a Seanchan woman even on Rand. "He Shall Hold a Blade of Light in his Hands", I like Rand, Nynaeve, ??? using Callandor at Shayol Ghul. The second part of the prohphecy, "And the Three Shall Become One", I much prefer this will be the moment that the tripod is going to stand together and Rand, Mat and Perrin are going to use their Ta'veren mojo and solidify their X3 Pattern influence into 1 (Rand).

 

Their ta'veren swirl visions that they never hold unto that Robert Jordan's been giving us since book whenever just seems too big to me to not think of what happens when they all use these Pattern swirls at once. So we would have Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Moiraine (perhaps) all becoming one in essence. The three ta'veren through those visions and create an ultimate Pattern moment or something. The other "Three Become One", Rand, Nynaeve and Moiraine(?) through their link on Callandor at Shayol Ghul. This all happens at once (within 10 seconds of each other - ta'veren) and all of them in essence Become One vs. the DO.

 

Maybe that sounds crazy, but I think it would be incredibly cool if that's how the battle at Shayol Ghul goes down. No idea how Fain plays into it though and lot of other potential things.

Edited by gambril
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I think Rand is going to voluntarily submit to the use of the Domination Band as the "onyx hand" controlling Callandor. I also think the entire Callandor subplot is likely to be a red herring.

 

I fully acknowledge that this is kind of a crack theory likely to be wrong not just in the particulars but in the broad sweeps, but I'm going with it for the time being.

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In the words of Judge Haller from "My cousin Vinny", that is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out theory... overrulled.

sorry, I just don't buy it. First, the whole premise that the fall off a cliff would represent a failure of her opposition to Rand's plan to break the seals does not make sense to me. It's quite clear by now that Egwene is wrong and Rand is right and should and will break the seals. In the dream it's clear that her falling off the cliff would lead to something wrong and terrible.

Also, while I'm not sure about the rest of the dream I'm absolutely sure that the seanchan woman with the sword is not Tuon. There are absolutely no swords mentioned in relation with Tuon anyplace in all the books. When she fights she fights with her hands. The most likely candidate for the woman with the sword is Egeanin. She carries a sword (this is mentioned multiple times) and her sigil is a sword and a fouled anchor. And she has recently been moved to Tar Valon for no particular clear reason. The only explanation given for that is when she tells Mat that she always intended to go there. Not particularly illuminating. Most likely she was moved there in order to set her up for the eventual fulfillment of that dream of Egwene. And certainly if the woman with the sword is Egeanin it's even less likely that she could somehow give Egwene great aid in opposing Rand's plans to destroy the seals. Much more likely it will have something to do with the impending second attack of Seanchan on the Tower.

 

BTW, why do you have three different threads on this topic? it's very confusing. Would it be possible to have them consolidated into one thread? Not sure if something like this can be done on this forum.

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Second, improved draft over the first one. Take it apart sentence by sentence. Dream = bolded. Rest = conjecture and musings.

 

---------------------------------

 

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Confronting Rand and options are 'narrow'; tread carefully. The towering cliff would be Rand. She's struggling up the cliff due to his supporters that back him as well.

 

Clouds surrounds her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. I take this to represent the rift in those in favor of breaking the seals, and those that do not. She knows both of these grounds because she knows her side. As well as knowing those on the other side (Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve (probably) etc.)) They are far away because one side is: Go break the seals and the other side is, do not break those seals.

 

She had to place her feet very carefully. She's in a tenuous postion.

 

The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. The path is cracked because Egwene's encountered more opposition (or just simply representing the clear division), possibly due to Rand's speech and it puts her into a corner. The ledge is littered with stones because these are all the people that could sway the meeting in Rand's favor. Back against the wall (shoulder pressed against the cliff) and one wrong move (misplaced step) will send the 'littered stones' as large as a fist into Egwene failing in convincing of the Seals not being broken.

 

 

It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream. This is probably meaning that the two sides are entrenched. Pushing 'millstones' probably refers to attempting to pursuade Rand's side. Pulling the 'carts' would conversly mean she's 'pulling' her side to stay with her. Can flip the pushing and pulling to the other way around, not sure which side those two words represent; it's not really important anyway (the packs, they're both entrenched).

 

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. This is incredibly interesting I think. I think this represents Moiraine's arrival at the meeting and her support of Rand. Notice the words "abruptly" and "crumbling stone" - suddenly her path falls out from under her in apparent shock (frantically) and shes struggling to regain her center of balance.

 

Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Again, Moiraine's arrival and Egwene desperately trying to find her center. She lands and is flabbergasted (wrenchend).

 

Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Moiraine's arrival and prompt support of breaking the seals leaves Egwene reeling and her support, crumbling. The stone (Moiraine) doesn't hit the ground because of her reputation and never makes a sound for the same reason.

 

Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left, Ten feet away, it might as well been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. Again very interesting one I think. This "ledge" she sees "dimly to her left" is Moiraine. She has no chance of reaching this 'broken ledge' (Moiraine's support of Rand).

 

In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. This seems to be Egwene's supporters (Aes Sedai?) being further away from their path due to Moiraine. I think this fits due to the words "whatever remained of the path". Of course, the path is to pursuade Rand and his allies and it's now 'further away'.

 

There was no strength in her arms. Despair, loss of hope perhaps - the end if the seals are broke. Also no strength due to feeling betrayed by Moiraine.

 

She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. Egwene and her Aes Sedai support is starting to blunder (Hanging by fingertips) Her efforts to convince Rand have failed. She can only wait until the seals are broke and the world ends. Perhaps she can't pull herself up because her "don't make me force my hand" didn't work.

 

The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under fingers. The 'cliff' she lands upon is painful. Most likely referring to how rough this meetings going to be for her. It also sounds a lot like what a betrayal would feel like. As well as her despair at failing to convince Rand not to break the seals.

 

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. This is Tuon coming down to Egwene. Down representing Tuon going to Egwene, the Amyrlin of the White Tower. She's also going down figuratively because she's going to Egwene and by previous Seanchan customs the Empress doesn't treat a marathdamane with respect - on the same level. Deftly as if they were stairs because she's sure in here purpose to ally with Egwene. Deftly could also refer to Tuon's political acumen in this act.

 

There was a sword strapped to her back. This could be a few things I admit. I favor the sword either represents Mat and/or Seanchan Empire. Mostly Matrim though due to "strapped to her back". That just kinda reeks of a modern day term of "Wrapped around your finger" and it's reasonable to assume that Matrim is wrapped around her finger to a certain degree. Also the Sword and First Prince of the Ravens goes hand in hand smybolically it would seem. As a First Prince, are you not then the Sword (General, Horn Blower, take your pick ;p) of the Empress?

 

Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. Tuon's face wavers due to Seanchan's cultural attitude towards collaring channelers. The sword is solid as stone because hell or high water Matrim will do whatever he can to keep Egwene's "bacon off the coals."

 

The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together,". She said in a familar drawling accent. Reaching her level means they agree on opposing Rand and his insistence on breaking the seals perhaps. Together, Egwene's supporters and Tuon's Empire can reach the top together, above the clouds to the Light.

Edited by gambril
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I've been intrigued by this dream ever since reading about it.

 

It definitely seems to have not been fulfilled yet, but it involves Egwene, a Seanchan woman and a near catastrophe of some kind. Now that she's firmly ensconced as Amyrlin, what trouble could she get into that she would need to be saved by a Seanchan?

 

The popular theory for a long time was that the woman was Egeanin and that it was somehow going to be tied to the Seanchan raid on the Tower. That didn't happen, but now Tuon has ordered another attack.

 

Egeanin is heading to Tar Valon, which puts her into position to fulfill the woman with a sword part of it, but will Egwene end up back at the tower in time for the Seanchan attack? Will the Last Battle not commence from the Field of Merrilor?

 

If Egwene *is* back at the Tower, or Travels there on hearing of the attack, she's going to want the sa'angreal and angreals in the Tower to stop them. Is the crumbling edge the point at which she balances the risk to her linked and now-prepared Aes Sedai versus just obliterating huge numbers of Seanchan with massive amounts of power (with a Perrin-moment of 'every man is needed to fight the Shadow')? Egeanin may then be the one to tell her there is another way -- get Mat, the Empress' husband, to mediate.

 

Really looking forward to seeing how this arc plays out, especially considering Mat is heading back to Caemlyn which is under attack - (does he rally the Band and gather up all the mercenaries under the Red Hand? - while Elayne is currently with Egwene on the FoM and has no idea that her city is being devastated...

 

A Memory of Light is going to rock. :smile:

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Is the crumbling edge the point at which she balances the risk to her linked and now-prepared Aes Sedai versus just obliterating huge numbers of Seanchan with massive amounts of power (with a Perrin-moment of 'every man is needed to fight the Shadow')?

 

I don't think so. The first two paragraphs of the Dream deal with the meeting at FOM. The third paragraph is Egwene running into Tuon when she's at her lowest point (feeling betrayed by Moiraine, shocked cuz lost support amoung her 'own'). The crumbling ledge would represent Egwene's Aes Sedai's (some of them at least to cause the ledge she's on to partially crumble and fall) declaring for the Dragon following Moiraine's support of Rand's plan.

 

After all, aren't the best Aes Sedai those that don't do what other Aes Sedai think they should? :biggrin: .

Edited by gambril
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  • 4 weeks later...

I am guessing the seanchan women may be Alivia, and the sword could be callandor which I have my doubts Rand will even use...

 

Alivia's only relevance is 'helping Rand die' (opinion of course). Egwene, after FOM, allying with Tuon looks like it's the way the story will go. Moiraine and Mat arrive at FOM etc. Then Mat goes to the Tower from there to get the Horn, sees the Seanchan and goes to Tuon. Tuon and Matrim work out a resolution with Mat's bargaining chip being the Horn of Valere. Then Tuon will 'go down out of the clouds' to ally with Egwene, a marathdamane. The sword would be symbolic of representing Matrim being 'strapped to her back' or in modern day terms, tied around her finger :tongue: . After all, I would think "First Prince of the Ravens" is, for the most part, the sword arm of the Empress, which Matrim certainly qualifies for I'd say.

 

Thinking about Tuon and Egwene allying together a little more, it would make sense for Brandon to have to make them seem more opposed, which he did in TGS and TOM. I've seen comments from fans on Tuon and Egwene seeming even more hardline then how Jordan wrote them; and I agree, he did. Brandon had to make them more hardline because with TGS and TOM, he gave us acts I and II, which Jordan was against. Jordan, I imagine, feared that if he split AMOL, the story would be too easy to unfold. For instance, the topic of this post, the dream, would have never been 'understood' beforehand (AMOL), without knowledge of the FOM meeting and the Seanchan planning to attack the Tower in full at the same time. Thus, he insisted on AMOL being one book.

 

So act 3 (AMOL) will start off with basically Egwene/Tuon against Rand breaking the seals and Matrim being the 'center of it all' will make them play nicely together in the sand box before all is lost at the last moment. The majority of fans seem to be against this though, simply due to being biased on the matter; yet they will say it's the end of the world and they're fighting for existence. So, considering that, why wouldn't they all ally together? Do people really think the Dark One is going to be defeated with factions of Rand/Egwene/Tuon all being divided, as it currently stands? To go even further and put my neck on the block, I'd even say that after the Last Battle, the 4th age will resemble something of the U.S. with Andor, Cairhen, Mayene, Tear etc. all becoming city states and the Seanchan being the federal government so to speak; because let's face it, the way Randland currently stands, it sucks :laugh: . Throw Randland and the Seanchan together in the salad bowl and yeah, the result is something resembling the U.S.

 

In the end though, none of what I said really matters, people will believe or they won't believe. If you don't believe, great. You'll be shocked and suprised as per a goods stories supposed to do. If you do believe and it doesn't happen, same deal. Too bad it can't be truly verified until the book actually comes out though, waiting blows.

Edited by gambril
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Wait, wait, wait. Why are we relating this to the FoM? I just don't think it makes sense that this dream refers to the FoM and the Seanchan allying with Egwene to oppose Rand's plan. A much more likely scenario, IMO, is that the Seanchan's opposition to women who can channel almost destroys the WT and Egwene's plans (thus the crumbling cliff, etc.) but Tuon has a change of heart (flickering face) somehow and, using her unwavering authority as Empress (the sword), allies with Egwene and spares the WT, thus ensuring the survival of it and creating a powerful new force for TG.

 

The reason I don't believe the FoM theory is that it implies that Rand is wrong, which we as readers know probably isn't true. Additionally, it's pretty clear at least in my opinion that Elayne is going to side with Egwene and thus give her the power of Andor, which is not inconsiderable. I honestly feel like Elayne won't support Rand until Egwene does, so I doubt Egwene will be alone and friendless. Besides, she's Amyrlin, so she's already gotten a dedicated power base in the WT, who pretty much pledged to follow whatever she commands when she tricked them into giving her exclusive power to deal with all national rulers, which includes Rand.

Edited by Sleeper
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Wait, wait, wait. Why are we relating this to the FoM? I just don't think it makes sense that this dream refers to the FoM and the Seanchan allying with Egwene to oppose Rand's plan. A much more likely scenario, IMO, is that the Seanchan's opposition to women who can channel almost destroys the WT and Egwene's plans (thus the crumbling cliff, etc.) but Tuon has a change of heart (flickering face) somehow and, using her unwavering authority as Empress (the sword), allies with Egwene and spares the WT, thus ensuring the survival of it and creating a powerful new force for TG.

 

The reason I don't believe the FoM theory is that it implies that Rand is wrong, which we as readers know probably isn't true. Additionally, it's pretty clear at least in my opinion that Elayne is going to side with Egwene and thus give her the power of Andor, which is not inconsiderable. I honestly feel like Elayne won't support Rand until Egwene does, so I doubt Egwene will be alone and friendless. Besides, she's Amyrlin, so she's already gotten a dedicated power base in the WT, who pretty much pledged to follow whatever she commands when she tricked them into giving her exclusive power to deal with all national rulers, which includes Rand.

 

How does it imply Rand is wrong? All it says is that Egwene and Rand will still be opposed on the issue following the FOM meeting. I agree about Elayne, I think she will stick with Egwene. This is told to us in the second paragraph of the dream.

 

In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still.

 

The dream even agrees with you. Egwene will still have supporters following the FOM meeting, but it will only be limited to select (they will be divided on the issue) Aes Sedai - ie: the mist. Who sticks with Egwene and who doesn't would be fun to theorize about, for me at least :tongue: . Like I would say, Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Moiraine most definitely will agree with Rand. Others like, Elayne, Suian, Leane, Romanda...those kind of characters will stick with Egwene.

 

Remember, Matrim is the "center of all" (meaning the central string that ties Tuon/Egwene/Rand together). So Tuon's change of heart would 'most logically' come from him.

Edited by gambril
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Wait, wait, wait. Why are we relating this to the FoM? I just don't think it makes sense that this dream refers to the FoM and the Seanchan allying with Egwene to oppose Rand's plan. A much more likely scenario, IMO, is that the Seanchan's opposition to women who can channel almost destroys the WT and Egwene's plans (thus the crumbling cliff, etc.) but Tuon has a change of heart (flickering face) somehow and, using her unwavering authority as Empress (the sword), allies with Egwene and spares the WT, thus ensuring the survival of it and creating a powerful new force for TG.

 

The reason I don't believe the FoM theory is that it implies that Rand is wrong, which we as readers know probably isn't true. Additionally, it's pretty clear at least in my opinion that Elayne is going to side with Egwene and thus give her the power of Andor, which is not inconsiderable. I honestly feel like Elayne won't support Rand until Egwene does, so I doubt Egwene will be alone and friendless. Besides, she's Amyrlin, so she's already gotten a dedicated power base in the WT, who pretty much pledged to follow whatever she commands when she tricked them into giving her exclusive power to deal with all national rulers, which includes Rand.

 

How does it imply Rand is wrong? All it says is that Egwene and Rand will still be opposed on the issue following the FOM meeting. I agree about Elayne, I think she will stick with Egwene. This is told to us in the second paragraph of the dream.

If Egwene is barely holding on to a cliff, it makes it seem like if she lets go and gives in to Rand's proposal, as the FoM theory seems to state, that something bad will happen. There's no way to spin falling off a cliff as a good thing.

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Remember, Matrim is the "center of all" (meaning the central string that ties Tuon/Egwene/Rand together). So Tuon's change of heart would 'most logically' come from him.

 

Could be theorized that Mat being the center of all was in fact the rescue of Moiraine because she is still of great importance in Rand defeating the DO.

Giving up half the light of the world (his eye) to save the world (implies that recuing Moiraine is vital in that regard).

 

Hard to say really as it's obvious Mat will play a huge role in not only roping the Seanchan in but also that he is destined to be the supreme military commander for the Light.

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If it is Tuon on the cliff (her coming down from the clouds might support this), doesn't that signal bad news for Rand? It would be nice (if shocking) to see the Seanchan ally with the Aes Sedai, but not against Rand! Still, the whole thing is confusing -- the sword can't represent Mat unless Tuon and Egwene decide to support Rand, because Mat will side with Rand all the way (while siding with Tuon and Egwene all the way, too ... poor boy!). It also can't represent Justice if Tuon is siding with Egwene, because the sword is in Rand's possession. Perhaps the scene symbolizes a (shocking, unanticipated) change of heart for Egwene, in which she realizes she must accept Rand's course of action and ally with him and with the Seanchan to defeat the DO. It's a little cuddly for me, but it's the only way I can reconcile the elements of the dream.

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The Dream of a Seanchan handing Egwene an a'dam comes into play here, too. I'm nearly convinced the collar will be for Rand. A Domination band, a circle of three wielding Callandor, and the three shall become one.

 

 

When did this happen? Are you sure it was a Domination band? Perhaps it was a collar for women. That might signify the return of the Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan; or by some small chance the end of their slavery.

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If Egwene is barely holding on to a cliff, it makes it seem like if she lets go and gives in to Rand's proposal, as the FoM theory seems to state, that something bad will happen. There's no way to spin falling off a cliff as a good thing.

 

I completely agree. What you're missing, in my opinion though, is that this is Egwene's perspective. So when she does indeed lose the argument, what you stated is exactly Egwene's reasoning. This dream is Egwene's perspective of the meeting, nobody elses'.

Edited by gambril
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If Egwene is barely holding on to a cliff, it makes it seem like if she lets go and gives in to Rand's proposal, as the FoM theory seems to state, that something bad will happen. There's no way to spin falling off a cliff as a good thing.

 

I completely agree. What you're missing, in my opinion though, is that this is Egwene's perspective. So when she does indeed lose the argument, what you stated is exactly Egwene's reasoning. This dream is Egwene's perspective of the meeting, nobody elses'.

Interesting point. I was taking it from the perspective that it was a prophetic dream, which would mean that doom and disaster would be a more universal thing, but your idea works as well.

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