Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

How To Fix Egwene


Recommended Posts

At the very least, can you admit that her definition of the word, "partner" is, umm, non-standard?

Sounds pretty standard compared to how Warders have generally been expected to act by their Aes Sedai.

 

If anything it seems fairly generous, given his extremely questionable history.

 

The fact that Gawyn is a tool or that Warders have historically been subservient Aes Sedai pets does not invalidate critisms that Egwene has treated the man she loves in a poor fashion. It is hard to have much sympathy for the idiot but it is still fair to point out that Egwene should treat that man she loves and is to marry in a more equal manner when they are in private. And just because previous Aes Sedai have treated Warders as nothing more than a weapon to be used does not make that type of treatment OK. Especially when that Warder is also your husband.

 

You really are incapable of recognising that people are capable of disliking Egwene independent of her actions towards Rand. Also' date=' plenty of Egwene detractors thought Rand needed fixing, and, lo and behold, it happened! The fact that your main defense of Egwene is to point out Dark Rand's actions is quite telling.[/quote']

The problem is that the fanatical anti-Egwene posters keep pulling up the same slobbering rage at her having the audacity to resist THE DRAGON REBORN when he's doing something that, as far as anyone except Rand or Min know, appears to be likely to destroy the world. It's come up more than once in this thread already.

 

But not all of them merely critisize Egwene based on her actions towards Rand. Many points have been made against her character that have nothing to do with Rand. I will note a couple for examples although this list is by no means complete:

 

1. She is a personality chameleon with no sense of her own self or loyalties. She switches thought and loyalties based on whatever group she happens to be around. When she was in the TR she couldn't wait to braid her hair and train to be a Wisdom. As soon as Moiraine shows up and tells her she can channel the braid comes out because AS don't braid their hair. As soon as she joins the Aiel she doesn't worry much at all about being AS and tries to be a perfect Aiel. During this time she also abandons her loyalties to the man she thought she would marry (this has nothing to do with Rand in particular but just another point of her shifting loyalties) to help the AS and Aiel WOs spy on him. Once she gets the call from the WT she abandons the Aiel and tries to become perfect AS. At this point you she her worry very little about the Aiel and their council, despite the fact that her own personal experiences should have shown her that the Aiel are a more honorable and capable group of women with less political manipulations and it appears likely less darkfriends. Her own personal opinions shift easily at this point as illustrated by her stance on the Oaths which she originally (and correctly) believed to be a bad idea but then changed her point of view to the WT's standard operating robot thinking really quickly.

 

I have seen you argue in another thread that this ability to adapt is a positive of hers. I disagree. To me it indicates someone with a weak personality with no sense of self or loyalties who will fall into line with whatever the MO is of the group she is in. It indicates she doesn't know who she is or what she really wants.

 

Constrast that with Nynaeve who shows the ability to change her stance and become an AS without giving up her core personality, loyalties, and ability to think for herself.

 

2. Her hypocrisy regarding the Oaths of fealty.

 

3. Her lack of introspection and growth. For example, I don't really have a problem with her forcing sisters to swear to her or her later critisizing Elaida for it. What I have a problem with is that she appears not to even notice the hypocrisy of this in her POVs. If we had seen some kind of internal dialogue where she recognizes what she did was similar but necessary and that critisizing Elaida's demand of a fourth Oath serves the greater good by helping to bring her down I wouldn't mind it. But instead you just get her holier than thou indignation at Elaida with no recognition that she blackmailed sisters into a very similar agreement.

 

Except that she has no plan either.

No matter how many times people repeat this in thread after thread' date=' it doesn't stop being stupid.

 

Here's an analogy to illustrate the ridiculousness of that argument: Mentally unbalanced CEO of a corporation suspects corporate espionage. Decides the solution is to plant pipe bombs throughout the organization's campus and blow them up, since that will certainly "deal with" the disloyal employee in question.

 

Except that in this case, Rand's chosen course of action -- and he's a guy who's shown himself repeatedly to be pretty well on the way to insanity in the past -- is, as far as Egwene or just about anyone else in the series knows, likely to [i']destroy the world[/i]. Something that, incidentally, he was in fact considering doing a couple hours earlier.

 

Demanding an alternate plan from Egwene is like yelling at the vice president who tries to stop the CEO, "YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A PLAN TO DEAL WITH CORPORATE ESPIONAGE YOURSELF." Maybe not, but that doesn't mean stopping the CEO from blowing up corporate headquarters isn't a good first step.

 

Is her opposition to Rand wanting to destroy the seals without any further info rational? Of course. Does her lack of a plan excuse the fact the Rand does not have one? Of course not.

 

So take Rand and the imminent seal breaking out of the equation. And you are still left with the fact that as far as we see in the book, the Amyrlin Seat (the Watcher of the Seals and all that) is failing to prepare the White Tower for Tarmon Gaidan. We do not see her using her resources to find some kind of plan of action to win the Last Battle. You do not see her preparing the AS for battle with practice or training. You do not see her sending help to any of the Borderland areas. It is perfectly fair to expect the leader of the White Tower (the great hope and protecter of the Light as they believe) to be performing these tasks. Instead all we see is political manevouring.

 

Agree almost completely' date=' Rand alone can destroy the world, yet she incites him only because she was given a title. I think how she has accepted the title is very well done, but it doesn't change the fact, egwene, other than combating a petty dictator makes her the equal of a man who is hunted day and night, and has stood alone for 2 years (He really should have stretched the time line a little bit.) against the shadows direct attention. Title > prophecy? especially when the person she thinks she is greater than actually knows what it is to be Amyrlin? I would have preferred if Rand told Egwene that she could call him Father, just as he pulled the "Rand Sedai" thing with Cadsuane. That would have been great. [/quote']

Ah yes, the inevitable "how DARE she have the audacity to stand up to Rand al'Thor, THE DRAGON REBORN!?" post.

 

Again, while this does happen, it is not the only critisms leveled at Egwene in this and other threads. People have given whole laundry lists of reasons that they dislike Egwene that have nothing to do with her actions towards Rand. Perhaps you disagree with these reasons and you like Egwene. That's cool, to each their own. But please don't ignore that its not just the "Rand fanboys" that have a problem with the Egwene character.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 327
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I created an account at this site so I could reply to this long thread.

 

For the record I've never really had much like or dislike for Egwene as a character. She's always just been there.

 

I was pleased with her character growth in The Gathering Storm though. One moment that I don't think was covered in this thread (I could be mistaken and missed it) is when Siuan meets Eqwene in the Dream World while being kept in the cell near the end of the book. Off hand she remarks to Siuan that "This is what it must have been like for Rand."

 

I think that line might have hit some the wrong way, and people might be thinking that Egwene was suggesting she was suffering as much as the Dragon Reborn has. It's not what she's saying though.

 

She's finally empathizing with Rand, and seeing him as a human being again. Until then, since he discovered the ability to channel, Egwene has viewed him like someone that is formally human--and in her mind justified a lot of how he was treated or what was happening because the Last Battle was coming. Certainly not as an equal, as someone who needed to be fixed.

 

I think the true battle against the Dark One is less about destroying armies of dark-spawn, and more about the characters acting with compassion and unity in the face of adversity. It's demonstrated several times in the series: greater success is achieved when the characters work together (particularly male and female ones).

 

 

I also agree with what was written above: Rand came to see Eqwene at the start of ToM for several reasons

 

1. To declare his plans so she could use the "fear" of destroying the seals in 30 days as a way to unify the tower and the nations the WT is in communication with. Egwene is a Two Rivers girl, so he knows if he suggests one course of action, she'll disagree with it and use all the stubbornness she can muster.

 

2. To give her the choice of trying to bind him, or let him go freely. He does not want to control the tower, and he does not want the tower to control him--so he gives her the chance to treat each other as equals.

 

3. He needs to see what kind of person Egwene has become. He knows he needs 2 women for Callandor, and that Egwene is powerful.

 

 

I expect more character growth for Egwene in the final book. I also expect her and Nynaeve to be the ones linked to Rand and Callandor.

Edited by Magus Rune
Link to post
Share on other sites

It really doesn't matter how many times you claim that people only dislike Egwene for daring to stand up to Rand; repetition doesn't make the charge any more valid.

Except I never said that.

 

BZZZT! Try again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what Egwene really needs? A Truthspeaker. Preferably Nynaeve.

 

Ha! Love that. If only all the main characters had a truth speaker. That is actually one part of the Seanchan culture that is quite good!

Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what Egwene really needs? A Truthspeaker. Preferably Nynaeve.

 

Ha! Love that. If only all the main characters had a truth speaker. That is actually one part of the Seanchan culture that is quite good!

 

That's an interesting thought, and yeah, it's one of the relatively few things about the way the Seanchan blood act that I like.

 

I'm not on board with this whole "fixing" a character. I don't like her much, but she was written this way for a reason. If I have to argue how to fix her, then we have to argue how to fix Rand, Min, Mat, Cadsuane, Verin (posthumous), etc etc etc because they all have faults, and pretty much everyone has done something at some point that wasn't good for them or for the cause of the Light.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm not on board with this whole "fixing" a character. I don't like her much, but she was written this way for a reason. If I have to argue how to fix her, then we have to argue how to fix Rand, Min, Mat, Cadsuane, Verin (posthumous), etc etc etc because they all have faults, and pretty much everyone has done something at some point that wasn't good for them or for the cause of the Light.

 

Well, I go back and forth on this point.

 

Overall, I mostly agree that Egwene was written this way on purpose. We have two different authors who are writing an arrogant, hypocritical, sexist ass. It seems likely they intended it that way.

 

On the other hand, there is some evidence for the notion that Jordan, at least, really thought he was writing a sympathetic character. In which case, I would argue he missed the mark widely, requiring the fix.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what Egwene really needs? A Truthspeaker. Preferably Nynaeve.

 

Ha! Love that. If only all the main characters had a truth speaker. That is actually one part of the Seanchan culture that is quite good!

 

I think the combination of Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Min pretty well fulfill that function for Rand. Not to mention the Aeil, whose definition of followership doesn't seem to include quiet submission.

 

Dyelin doesn't question Elayne in public, but the Andoran nobility as a whole seems pretty protective of their historic rights and privileges, so perhaps she doesn't need one as badly.

 

Perrin's followers routinely question his decisions, in public.

 

Mat doesn't rule anything, and neither does Nynaeve.

 

But Egwene needs a Truthspeaker. Or Devil's Advocate, whatever.

Edited by randsc
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just throwing this out there, but is the idea that Rand will "figure out when he gets there" what hes going to do when he breaks the seals realy an irrational one? He didn't know what he was going to do ahead of time when he:

 

1.Went to the EOTW

2.Fought any of the forsaken (with the possible exception of Rhavin

3. Took the Stone of Tear

and several other examples

 

The point is Rand is Ta'veren as hell and the pattern has given him several answers before, is it realy irrational for him to belive the same will happen this time?

Refresh my memory, were any of those on the scale of releasing the evil god who can destroy reality (and is already severely affecting it currently)? According to your theory, Rand shouldn't even be facing this problem. The Pattern should've just bailed out Lews Therin Telamon ages ago.

 

I realize this is bigger, but this is also the reason he was spit out in the first place. Why wouldnt't the pattern help him figure it out when he needs it?

 

So basically, the series should have ended once Rand figured out how to Travel? If all he has to do is to show up at SG, sit down on his arse, and wait for the Pattern to fix everything for him, why the wait?

 

The pattern isn't fixing anything for Rand. The pattern is using Rand to fix things. Thats what it means to be Ta'veren.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm not on board with this whole "fixing" a character. I don't like her much, but she was written this way for a reason. If I have to argue how to fix her, then we have to argue how to fix Rand, Min, Mat, Cadsuane, Verin (posthumous), etc etc etc because they all have faults, and pretty much everyone has done something at some point that wasn't good for them or for the cause of the Light.

 

Well, I go back and forth on this point.

 

Overall, I mostly agree that Egwene was written this way on purpose. We have two different authors who are writing an arrogant, hypocritical, sexist ass. It seems likely they intended it that way.

 

On the other hand, there is some evidence for the notion that Jordan, at least, really thought he was writing a sympathetic character. In which case, I would argue he missed the mark widely, requiring the fix.

 

I am sympathetic to what she is trying to do, I just think she is wrong-headed and stubborn about it, at least in places. /shrug. I'm cool with that, though, which means, ultimately, that I am cool with how RJ and BS have written her. Maybe that puts me into a minority or maybe not. I mostly think where Jordan erred was in how he set up a world with different social dynamics than our own - he turned the differences and the very real feminine power in WoT into a reason for more sexism than should have been possible in people that still live with, marry and have children together while professing to love each other and actually living in a functioning society together. That is WAY too far in the past to undo, though, so I don't think about it.

 

I steer clear of a goodly chunk of the Rand or Egwene bashing (or fanboyism, cause that's just as silly imo), except as a means to a lol in rare occasions, but I'm thoroughly baffled by the level of hatred directed at characters in a book, which has become almost political or religious/atheistic in its content than it is discussion over a fictional character.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In terms of "stubborn stupid" I actually dislike Elayne, and don't mind Egwene. Elayne's goals often seem more self serving, whereas I think Egwene is, in her own imperfect way, trying to truly prepare in time for the last battle.

 

Egwene learns from her mistakes, Elayne doesn't seem to.

Elayne has admitted she was wrong in the past, Egwene thinks of herself as perfect.

 

If you combined the bad parts of those together, you'd REALLY have a mess...but I'll take Egwene beside me in a fight before I would Elayne, I think Elayne would get me killed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest PiotrekS

At the very least, can you admit that her definition of the word, "partner" is, umm, non-standard?

Sounds pretty standard compared to how Warders have generally been expected to act by their Aes Sedai.

 

If anything it seems fairly generous, given his extremely questionable history.

 

The fact that Gawyn is a tool or that Warders have historically been subservient Aes Sedai pets does not invalidate critisms that Egwene has treated the man she loves in a poor fashion. It is hard to have much sympathy for the idiot but it is still fair to point out that Egwene should treat that man she loves and is to marry in a more equal manner when they are in private. And just because previous Aes Sedai have treated Warders as nothing more than a weapon to be used does not make that type of treatment OK. Especially when that Warder is also your husband.

 

You really are incapable of recognising that people are capable of disliking Egwene independent of her actions towards Rand. Also' date=' plenty of Egwene detractors thought Rand needed fixing, and, lo and behold, it happened! The fact that your main defense of Egwene is to point out Dark Rand's actions is quite telling.[/quote']

The problem is that the fanatical anti-Egwene posters keep pulling up the same slobbering rage at her having the audacity to resist THE DRAGON REBORN when he's doing something that, as far as anyone except Rand or Min know, appears to be likely to destroy the world. It's come up more than once in this thread already.

 

But not all of them merely critisize Egwene based on her actions towards Rand. Many points have been made against her character that have nothing to do with Rand. I will note a couple for examples although this list is by no means complete:

 

1. She is a personality chameleon with no sense of her own self or loyalties. She switches thought and loyalties based on whatever group she happens to be around. When she was in the TR she couldn't wait to braid her hair and train to be a Wisdom. As soon as Moiraine shows up and tells her she can channel the braid comes out because AS don't braid their hair. As soon as she joins the Aiel she doesn't worry much at all about being AS and tries to be a perfect Aiel. During this time she also abandons her loyalties to the man she thought she would marry (this has nothing to do with Rand in particular but just another point of her shifting loyalties) to help the AS and Aiel WOs spy on him. Once she gets the call from the WT she abandons the Aiel and tries to become perfect AS. At this point you she her worry very little about the Aiel and their council, despite the fact that her own personal experiences should have shown her that the Aiel are a more honorable and capable group of women with less political manipulations and it appears likely less darkfriends. Her own personal opinions shift easily at this point as illustrated by her stance on the Oaths which she originally (and correctly) believed to be a bad idea but then changed her point of view to the WT's standard operating robot thinking really quickly.

 

I have seen you argue in another thread that this ability to adapt is a positive of hers. I disagree. To me it indicates someone with a weak personality with no sense of self or loyalties who will fall into line with whatever the MO is of the group she is in. It indicates she doesn't know who she is or what she really wants.

 

Constrast that with Nynaeve who shows the ability to change her stance and become an AS without giving up her core personality, loyalties, and ability to think for herself.

I think this is really an excellent post. I completely agree with what you say but also have something to add. What are my additional problems with Egwene?

1. As a character, she is poorly written. First of all, I feel that-as a reader-I am supposed to admire her and cheer for her, but all I feel about her plotline is that I'm reading some cheap propaganda of "our great teenage Leader".Mary Sue is a word that comes to mind. Also, I really don't care if she is a great Amyrlin or not, if she is a "strong woman" or not. Why should I?

By the way, even if I did care, I would like to make up my mind about the greatness of Egwene the Amyrlin based on my perception of her actions. Instead, I feel that admiration for her is being shoved down my throat, with lots of characters in last two books now and then saying thing like: "Oh, she's a great Amyrlin", "She's so strong, so wonderful". We're allowed to make our own minds about Rand, Nynaeve, Cadsuane etc. but in Egwene's case, we're told that she's wonderful and that's it. Well, I'm afraid my reaction is reactance.

Secondly, Egwene is now placed on a level roughly equivalent to Rand in the overall story structure, and I feel this is very inconsistent. I don't have any problems with RJ's big idea that men and women should work together, in equality and harmony, to achieve greatest possible results. I like this idea. But I think that he should have either written the story with a male and a female Dragon, and therefore allow this female Dragon to share the threats, pains and temptations of her male counterpart, or used a female character that most readers feel have earned the right to stand by the Dragon's side in he Last Battle by her own virtues - Nynaeve or Moiraine. Instead, we get Egwene the Amyrlin promoted to Dragon-like status in the last two books simply because of the political position that she holds. And that comes after RJ has spent many pages on poking holes in our initial understanding that Aes Sedai were the most important organization in the world (we got Wise Ones, Windfinders, the Kin, Seanchan etc.)

2. Even if Egwene was well written as a character, I would still find her unlikable based on arguments already discussed, especially her sickening self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

How to fix Egwene? For me, simply reduce her importance in the last book, Let her be simply the Amyrlin, one of many leaders, and not a pivotal figure for world's survival. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that is impossible now and my enjoyment of the last book will be somewhat diminished. I simply don't like reading about her.

Edited by PiotrekS
Link to post
Share on other sites

How to fix egwene? by bowing down and accepting what the lord, master and the saviour of the world tells her to do.She should stop being the leader of the aes sedai and start being nynaeve mark 2 and be a 'yes my lord dragon aes sedai'

She should never question what the lord dragon commands or does. Who is egwene anyway? huh? who is this woman? she's just the leader of some tower. Don't they know that only the lord dragon knows the way to stop shaitan? He's going to break the seals and then..........and then....... hope min has found the answers. Brilliant plan is it not?

 

...

 

No i change my mind. Egwene is too dangerous. We can't rely on her simply obeying rand. Rand is going to retire after the final battle. She will be free to do what she likes after that. She must be killed. Only solution. For the good of the aes sedai, the ashaman, the wise ones and the rest. We can't have any semblance of authority after tarmon gaidon. Why o why couldn't elaida killed her when she had the chance? The great and wonderful elaida tried to reform the girl but she wouldnt have it. Elaida showed mercy too and instead she got defiance from this upstart. what's more she got the great amyrlin captured at the hands of the seanchan.

 

No. Egwene is beyond fixing. beyond redemption. she needs to be killed. For the good of the light Amen.

 

Ha ha ha! Thank you for that, it was awesome.

 

 

Umm, on topic -- yeah, consider this another vote for Egwene not needing to be fixed. Her flaws make her a more well-rounded character, if she was perfect she'd just be boring. Her opposition to Rand's plan is the result of a specific dream which she interpreted to mean that he is making a mistake. Personally, I look forward to seeing how this conflict gets resolved; hopefully the result won't be too awful. :(

 

 

Also, Egwene is not sexist. She doesn't agree with Rand all the time, and she thinks male channelers are dangerous, which they are. She also thinks of the Black Tower as horning in on her territory, which it is, and while jealousy isn't admirable, it also isn't sexist.

 

She isn't borderline-personality-disorder or whatever, either. She throws herself into new things, sure, but she takes the good parts and makes them her own: she learned leadership and responsibility from the Aiel Wise Ones, and politicking from Siuan, and made herself into one bad-ass Amyrlin.

 

Annoying at times? Yes. Has flaws? Yes. Needs fixing? Hell no.

Edited by CorDarei
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Also, Egwene is not sexist. She doesn't agree with Rand all the time, and she thinks male channelers are dangerous, which they are. She also thinks of the Black Tower as horning in on her territory, which it is, and while jealousy isn't admirable, it also isn't sexist.

 

 

This is absurd. I have some sympathy for the, "of course she's sexist, but she grew up in a place and time where men were responsible for the Breaking, It's unreasonable to expect her to not be sexist" argument.

 

But she is, objectively, a sexist. I really don't think that is subject to reasonable debate.

Edited by randsc
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Also, Egwene is not sexist. She doesn't agree with Rand all the time, and she thinks male channelers are dangerous, which they are. She also thinks of the Black Tower as horning in on her territory, which it is, and while jealousy isn't admirable, it also isn't sexist.

 

 

This is absurd. I have some sympathy for the, "of course she's sexist, but she grew up in a place and time where men were responsible for the Breaking, It's unreasonable to expect her to not be sexist" argument.

 

But she is, objectively, a sexist. I really don't that is subject to reasonable debate.

 

Well, I don't want to retract my comment, but you're probably right that I used a definition of sexism narrower than most people would agree with. I still think singling out Egwene as sexist (in the sense of holding attitudes about men that almost all of the women in the series do) just seems like a weak excuse to me. And mistrusting the Asha'man is a totally rational position to hold, given the taint.

 

Of course, one person's minor trifling character quirk is another person's major show-stopping flaw, so there will always be differences of opinion about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

While I quite like Egwene as a character I agree that she needs some growth. LIke everyone else in the series.

 

I agree on the internal thoughts. None of her POV's show her thinking anything redeeming, or even about her problems or how she is feeling or anything like that. We do get that from Gawyn's POV however, hopefully it means we have something in the way of showing her actual thoughts and feelings on things soon.

 

I agree that she doesn't seem to have a sense of self. No direction, No plan for herself. She was thrown into this Amyrlin seat thing, it wasn't something she chose to do for herself. So she is simply copying what she has seen of other Aes Sedai. She needs to choose what she wants from her life, or she will continue to just carbon copy whatever she see's.

 

I don't aree about the hypocrisy. I dont think it is as bad as some people believe. Elaida wanted all Aes Sedai to swear full obedience to her, on the oath rod. Egwene got several people to swear an oath of fealty to her, not the same thing at all. And all she was aiming for was to have at least a few people NOT manipulating absolutely everything behind her back. Also dont forget that 2 of those oaths of fealty were voluntarily given.

I also dont think comparing Egwene raising 4 accepted (at least 2, possibly 3 of which are ready anyway) by decree and Elaida demoting an Aes Sedai to an Accepted becasue she threw up is really right. again, 2 different situations.

 

She has already done what needed to be done with Gawyn. He was being a tool. She was being stubborn. blah blah blah. She trusts him, he trusts her All better now, also for the people who keep saying this: They aren't married yet.

 

Lots of other things were stated, but those are the ones I feel most strongly on.

Everyone in WOT is sexist, Egwene did not attempt to bring all channeling groups under WT law, Oppsoing Rand's "smash the seals" plan is entirely rational, She asks him to stay and talk about it all and he refuses. Also I believe she was being manipulated into doing what she has done. Nyneave has been ignoring Egwene's summonses to the WT, and even TAR, when she finally does meet her Egwene asks her advice on something Nyneave has experience with. Frankly I agree with Egwene completely in that instance.

Her vision is very narrow at the moment, and for some reason we don't get to see her internal thoughts like we do the other characters. If we can just get that, some realisation and some direction for her I think thats all the growing she really needs to do.

Link to post
Share on other sites

While I quite like Egwene as a character I agree that she needs some growth. LIke everyone else in the series.

 

I agree on the internal thoughts. None of her POV's show her thinking anything redeeming, or even about her problems or how she is feeling or anything like that. We do get that from Gawyn's POV however, hopefully it means we have something in the way of showing her actual thoughts and feelings on things soon.

 

I agree that she doesn't seem to have a sense of self. No direction, No plan for herself. She was thrown into this Amyrlin seat thing, it wasn't something she chose to do for herself. So she is simply copying what she has seen of other Aes Sedai. She needs to choose what she wants from her life, or she will continue to just carbon copy whatever she see's.

 

I agree with that; my current personal hope is that Egwene can greatly benefit from talking to Cadsuane. From the way that Cadsuane handled Rand (and given that she's supposedly paddled the bottoms of kings, queens and Amyrlin's, not to mention one of the Forsaken) I don't think that Cadsuane will show much respect for Egwene's station; how much respect she shows for Egwene as a person will depend on how Egwene acts and reacts. If Egwene insists that Cadsuane defer to her, I suspect that another Amyrlin will get her bottom paddled. If Egwene treats Cadsuane with respect, I think that she can learn a lot and find a kindred spirit.

 

Egwene is of every Ajah and none; Cadsuane has stopped and prevented more wars than any Grey, she's found more men who can channel than any Red, she apparently matches Browns for knowledge of the Prophecies and of the obscure, she's as on-point as any White, and she throws herself into causes more whole-heartedly than most Blues. She'd make a failure as a Yellow, but otherwise she's essentially the ideal of an Aes Sedai who follows the ideals of the Tower. If Egwene becomes a slightly less caustic version of Cadsuane, she'll be a truly great Amyrlin.

Link to post
Share on other sites
She'd make a failure as a Yellow,

 

Being a Yellow is more than just about Healing with the Power. And I think it's a bit self-evident that Cadsuane Sedai has a desire to heal. She just uses different tools than that of the Yellow Sisters. I think Cadsuane Sedai, although not being perfect (she's arrogant beyond belief, slightly-misandrist and she royally screwed up with Rand Sedai and only managed to drag something from that whole sorry affair by sheer luck), is one of three Third Agers to really live up to what it means to be an Aes Sedai from the Age that defined Aes Sedai (the others being Nynaeve Sedai and Moiraine Sedai).

 

I say three because Rand Sedai isn't really a Third Ager is He :biggrin:?

Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what Egwene really needs? A Truthspeaker. Preferably Nynaeve.

 

She also needs to get married to Gawyn.

This will mellow her out some.

Those hormones must be overflowing by now - she is a 19 year old girl physically after all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously, the only reason Egwene didn't try to bring all channeling groups under WT was because she realised that she couldn't, if she could have she would have. I think she realised that WO wouldn't go under WT as well as the wind finders. Instead she compromised to try to bring them all together. She even said it herself, don't have ToM with me.

 

Edit: I think she will hopefully be fixed at the meeting when she realises that Rand made her do what he wanted. Should be a good meeting at FoM :)

Edited by heliage
Link to post
Share on other sites
Egwene got several people to swear an oath of fealty to her, not the same thing at all. And all she was aiming for was to have at least a few people NOT manipulating absolutely everything behind her back. Also dont forget that 2 of those oaths of fealty were voluntarily given.

Isnt it just as binding, since Aes Sedai cant lie? Didnt she also blackmail them into it?

Edited by Elmandarb
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully everyone and everything will get fixed in AMoL. The DO and the OP will both be sealed away. Egwene and the execrable Cadsuane will die in agony. All of the other channelers will be severed and go suicidal. No more Damane, Aes Sedai or Ashaman. The survivors can pick up the pieces and move on to rebuilding without having to worry about the WT, BT or Seanchan sh!tting things up for everyone.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Egwene got several people to swear an oath of fealty to her, not the same thing at all. And all she was aiming for was to have at least a few people NOT manipulating absolutely everything behind her back. Also dont forget that 2 of those oaths of fealty were voluntarily given.

Isnt it just as binding, since Aes Sedai cant lie? Didnt she also blackmail them into it?

 

They can't lie at the time of saying it. If they truly, honestly believe that the sky is green, then they can say the sky is green. If they later realise it is in fact blue, they don't drop dead or anything, they just can no longer say it is green anymore

And the oath of fealty in and of itself isn't a truth or lie statement. Recall the Aes Sedai who swore to Rand attempting to find some loophole out of or around actually keeping it? They decided that it meant exactly what it said, but I don't recall seeing any of Egwene's swearee's making a decision one way or another (except that one who went back to Elaida, can't recall the name?) and she only did that after Egwene was captured.

I think it largely depends on the individual Aes Sedai and what they actually believe at that point in time. Also an oath of fealty is in no way an oath of obedience

 

She blackmailed 2 of them (Myrelle and the other one studying mental problems), but there too, she gave them a choice. They could have refused and had the other Aes Sedai find out about Lan, they chose to swear to Egwene instead. I'm not sure about the rest because I don't remember actually reading about Sheriam and the others swearing, only Faolin and whatshername, and Myrelle and the other whatshername.

 

Can you tell I don't have access to my books right now? :biggrin:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dislike Egwene quite a bit as well, but I don't think she needs to be "fixed". Put in her place, definitely; I'm looking forward to someone giving her a good schooling at the Fields of Merrilor, but I think it's nice to have an antihero on the team; a good guy who's not that good of a guy.

Edited by Sleeper
Link to post
Share on other sites

She's hardly an antihero. Antiheroes typically do bad things for good reasons, to effective(or specifically ineffective) ends. She's just kind of a bitch. She thought she knew better than Rand in the first book, no surprise she thinks the same now, considering they've had similar political growth. For the record, I don't think she needs to be "fixed", just put in place, much in the same way it's fun to see people you dislike get shut down.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...