Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
herid

Rand's nausea when channeling

Recommended Posts

Does anybody have a theory on why Rand was getting nauseous when channeling prior to his transformation at the end of tGS and why he doesn't anymore?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anybody have a theory on why Rand was getting nauseous when channeling prior to his transformation at the end of tGS and why he doesn't anymore?

 

The best theory I saw was that the sickness was a result of his link with Moridin. You see him get double vision and Moridin's face when reaching for the Source, that could make you nauseous. I believe that there was also some indication that Moridin was also getting sick.

 

We don't actually know that the sickness is gone. The only time that we see Rand in ToM from his actual POV is at the end of the book when he has the dream about Lanfear. But we don't see any indication of it when the other characters watch him channel, so it seemed to me that it was likely gone. Its possible that the light in his brain that Nynaeve saw protecting him from the black barbs is also protecting him from the sickness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The best theory I saw was that the sickness was a result of his link with Moridin. You see him get double vision and Moridin's face when reaching for the Source, that could make you nauseous. I believe that there was also some indication that Moridin was also getting sick.

That seems unlikely to me. For one thing we don't know that the link with Moridin is gone. My strong belief is that it's not and it will come into play when fulfilling Min's vision about Rand merging with another man. Also, when exactly did his sickness when channeling started? I had an impression that it was before the link with Moridin was created.

We don't actually know that the sickness is gone. The only time that we see Rand in ToM from his actual POV is at the end of the book when he has the dream about Lanfear. But we don't see any indication of it when the other characters watch him channel, so it seemed to me that it was likely gone.

Yes, and Min remarks on this specifically. "He didn't seem to be having the trouble with sickness when he channeled any longer, which relieved her. Or was he just covering it?"

 

Its possible that the light in his brain that Nynaeve saw protecting him from the black barbs is also protecting him from the sickness.

That's what I thought personally but without understanding what that "whiteness" on his brain is it's hard to say more. any theories on that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I remember reading in a previous book that, since he only got the sickness when reaching for the source, that he held onto it as much as he possibly could at all times to avoid getting the sickness. I figured that Rand's lack of sickness now was due to the fact that he was pretty much holding the source every waking minute, possibly even figured out a way to hold it while sleeping. It might explain why Avienda's kids in her future-vision were able to do that, if Rand was doing that when he fathered them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I remember reading in a previous book that, since he only got the sickness when reaching for the source, that he held onto it as much as he possibly could at all times to avoid getting the sickness. I figured that Rand's lack of sickness now was due to the fact that he was pretty much holding the source every waking minute, possibly even figured out a way to hold it while sleeping. It might explain why Avienda's kids in her future-vision were able to do that, if Rand was doing that when he fathered them.

That's an interesting theory. But wouldn't the asha'man around him notice and comment on this?

Also, I did look up when his channeling sickness started and Mark Grayson was right - it did start right after his link with Moridin was created so that seems to be a very strong indication in support of that theory. I was wrong there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always assumed that it wasn't holding the source that would make him sick, but the actual process of going about seizing the source.

 

part of the process is feeding everything (emotion and all) into the flame.

 

since he was trying so hard to cleanse himself of emotion (for what, like 6 books?), he would get sick since he thought he was free of emotion when he was seizing the source, but in reality, he wasn't free of emotion, he was hiding it from himself.

 

The closer he came to his goal of becoming emotionless, the harder it was to seize, and the sicker he got.

 

Now that he has, for lack of a better word, embraced his emotion, he can now pour it all into the flame in the void properly so that he can seize the source appropriately.

 

In addition to getting sick, sometimes he couldn't even seize the source, and well, there it is, he hadn't fed everything into the flame before trying to take hold of the source.

 

at least, that's what makes sense to me.

Edited by samataim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always assumed that it wasn't holding the source that would make him sick, but the actual process of going about seizing the source.

 

part of the process is feeding everything (emotion and all) into the flame.

 

since he was trying so hard to cleanse himself of emotion (for what, like 6 books?), he would get sick since he thought he was free of emotion when he was seizing the source, but in reality, he wasn't free of emotion, he was hiding it from himself.

 

The closer he came to his goal of becoming emotionless, the harder it was to seize, and the sicker he got.

 

Now that he has, for lack of a better word, embraced his emotion, he can now pour it all into the flame in the void properly so that he can seize the source appropriately.

 

In addition to getting sick, sometimes he couldn't even seize the source, and well, there it is, he hadn't fed everything into the flame before trying to take hold of the source.

 

at least, that's what makes sense to me.

This seems less likely because it provides no explanation for Rand seeing Mordin's face during these events. Also, it does not explain why Mordin was having symptoms that matched Rand's. Like when Rand lost his hand - Mordin was showing signs of favoring the same hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In line with the Moridin link theory, while I thought it to be just a side effect of the taint, it could be his link with Moridin. Who uses the TP, which is much more deadly than the OP. Perhaps, like MOridin was affected by Rand losing a hand, Rand is affected by Moridin's TP use/availability.

 

Of coruse, this doesnt explain why he only gets sick when seizing the Power. Unless, and I am not sure it has been established or not, to seize the TP, one needs to be holding the OP first.

 

anyway, to the original question, its basically up for debate. Apparently Rand does not suffer from this sickness, but we havent seen any evidence suggesting it it truely gone. He may just be hiding it as min pointed out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is indeed caused by Rand and Moridin's link. From my thread on the Rand/Moridin Linkin the Theory Database

 

--The below is an excerpt of me basically discussing the progression of evidence within the series, I bolded the part that confirms that the sickness is caused by the link if you want to skim read.

 

 

We first witness the channeling sickness in tPoD.

 

Reluctantly he let go of the Power, forced himself not to hang on like a man clutching salvation with his fingernails as life and filth drained from him together. For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled, but the dizziness never lasted more than moments.

 

[tPoD-Floating Like Snow]

 

From there it continues, whenever he gathers or releases saidin. There was hot debate between whether it was the Taint or the Link which was causing this. Rand himself assumed it was the taint, and in addition to Morr that is the main reason he buckles down in Winter's Heart to cleanse it. Afterwards he is at a loss to explain whilst it is still there.

 

That did not stop nausea from rising in Rand, though, the violent urge to bend double and empty himself on the floor. The room seemed to spin for an instant, and he had to put a hand on the nearest bedpost to steady himself. He did not know why he should still feel this sickness, with the taint gone.

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthing Storm]

 

But the Winter's Heart Prologue rules this out. In it we witness the dizziness come without saidin, but with the image of Moridin.

 

“You should have picked smaller books, “ he told her, pulling on riding gloves to hide the Dragons. “Or lighter.” He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head. With an effort, he caught himself, forced his legs straight. And the whirling sensation vanished.

 

LewsTherin panted hoarsely in the shadows. Could the face be his?

 

“If you think you’ll make me carry them all that way, think again,” Min grumbled. “I’ve seen better pretending from stablehands. You could try falling down.”

 

“Not this time.” He was ready for what happened when he channeled; he could control it to some extent. Usually. Most of the time. This dizziness without saidin was new. Maybe he had just turned too fast. And maybe pigs did fly... ”

 

[WH-Prologue-Snow]

 

Now the problem here is in the question of how the link could become active without Rand seizing or releasing saidin, as is the case every other time he experiences the nausea. The likely answer is that this time it was Moridin's channeling that activated the link instead of Rand's. There is more support for that being the case, but I'll address that in a second.

 

In any case it is confirmed completely that the neusea is caused by the link. Specifically, in KoD, we see the reverse occuring--Rand activating the link, experiencing the nausea, and seeing Moridin.

 

with saidin came the inevitable violent nausea, the almost overwhelming desire to double over and empty himself of every meal he had ever eaten. His knees trembled with it. He fought that as hard as he fought the Power, and saidin had to be fought ever and always. A man forced saidin to his will, or it destroyed him. The face of the man from Shadar Logoth floated in his head for a moment. He looked furious. And near to sicking up. Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair.

 

[KoD-21-Within the Stone]

 

So drawing and releasing saidin is what facilitates the link into becoming active, and it is the link that causes the nausea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is indeed caused by Rand and Moridin's link. From my thread on the Rand/Moridin Linkin the Theory Database

 

...

 

Thanks a lot for such a detailed and comprehensive explanation and the link. You've definitely convinced me. But one thing that nobody has addressed yet from my original question is why Rand's nausea seemingly stopped in TofM. Any ideas on that? I definitely do not think that his link with Moridin is gone. That really would not make sense. Also, I think this link is what made it possible for them to break into Rand's dream at the end of TofM.

However it does seem that the link with Moridin is weaker now. Prior to TofM Rand's eyes would often turn blue (the color of Moridin's eyes).

The few times the color of his eyes is mentioned in TofM they are always gray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rand's eye color doesn't have anything to do with anything - it's always been blue or gray, depending on how the light takes them.

 

The theory Dakota mentioned is a good one; it has the best potential to explain that particular oddity with the babies, though it doesn't really explain everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is indeed caused by Rand and Moridin's link. From my thread on the Rand/Moridin Linkin the Theory Database

 

...

 

Thanks a lot for such a detailed and comprehensive explanation and the link. You've definitely convinced me. But one thing that nobody has addressed yet from my original question is why Rand's nausea seemingly stopped in TofM. Any ideas on that? I definitely do not think that his link with Moridin is gone. That really would not make sense. Also, I think this link is what made it possible for them to break into Rand's dream at the end of TofM.

However it does seem that the link with Moridin is weaker now. Prior to TofM Rand's eyes would often turn blue (the color of Moridin's eyes).

The few times the color of his eyes is mentioned in TofM they are always gray.

 

I don't think the link has actually been weakened or eliminated but, as someone else pointed out, it's more likely that Rand is just constantly holding the source. The link, and the nausea associated with it, are activated by the act of seizing the Source. I would guess that, since Rand has reconciled his past life memories, he somehow knows how to hold Saidin constantly and unconsciously. There's no other explanation I can think of without more POV's from Rand.

 

Also, when do Rand's eyes "turn blue"? I can't remember his eyes ever changing color. They have been described several different ways but that can be attributed to different characters' giving different descriptions. I remember them being described as 'pale blue' 'gray' or 'like steel' which are all very similar. Of course I am often mistaken and I could have invented one of those in my own head. But I don't remember them ever changing color??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Kiss me," she mumbled. When he did not move, she looked up. He blinked at her uncertainly, eyes now blue, now gray, a morning sky. "I’m not teasing." How often had she teased him, sitting on his lap, kissing him, calling him sheepherder because she dared not say his name for fear he might hear the caress? He put up with it because he thought she was teasing and would stop if she believed it did not affect him. Hah! Aunt Jan and Aunt Rana said you should not kiss a man unless you intended to marry him, but Aunt Miren seemed to know a little more of the world. She said you should not kiss a man too casually because men fell in love so easily. "I’m cold inside, sheepherder. Colavaere, and Master Fel... I need to feel warm flesh. I need... Please?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Kiss me," she mumbled. When he did not move, she looked up. He blinked at her uncertainly, eyes now blue, now gray, a morning sky. "I’m not teasing." How often had she teased him, sitting on his lap, kissing him, calling him sheepherder because she dared not say his name for fear he might hear the caress? He put up with it because he thought she was teasing and would stop if she believed it did not affect him. Hah! Aunt Jan and Aunt Rana said you should not kiss a man unless you intended to marry him, but Aunt Miren seemed to know a little more of the world. She said you should not kiss a man too casually because men fell in love so easily. "I’m cold inside, sheepherder. Colavaere, and Master Fel... I need to feel warm flesh. I need... Please?"

 

As I said, gray and blue, especially pale blue, are very similar colors. I always thought that was more of a change in Min's perception than an actual change in Rand's physical eye color. Is there any other examples of this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any other examples of this?

I've noticed it mentioned several times.

"Nenci whimpered as Falendre stroked the damane's head and tried to send soothing feelings through the

a'dam. That often seemed to work, but not so well today. Her own emotions were too roiled. If only she could forget that the

damane was shielded, and by whom. By what. Nenci whimpered again.

"You will deliver the message as I directed you?" a man said behind her.

No, not just any man. The sound of his voice stirred the pool of acid in her belly. She made herself turn to face him, made

herself meet those cold, hard eyes. They changed with the angle of his head, now blue, now gray, but always like polished

gemstones."

 

""There's already no turning back for me, Nynaeve," he said, his eyes intense. Those eyes shifted, sometimes seeming gray,

sometimes blue. Today, they looked iron gray. He continued, voice flat. "My feet started on this path the moment Tam found me

crying on that mountain."

 

Somehow I was sure that his eyes were never described as blue before the encounter with Moridin in SL. If I'm wrong on this then of course the whole thing with eyes is wrong.

Aha! the quote that Terez found is actually from before the encounter with Moridin so I guess I'm wrong on this one. Sorry for the disturbance, folks :)

Edited by herid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has Rand experienced the nausea once he used the true power?

Rand only used TP once and there are no indications that he experienced nausea when doing that. I think it's pretty convincingly argued by the others in this thread that he gets sick only when he or Moridin are channeling saidin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, he encountered "the worst it had ever been" when he seized saidin in Ebou Dar in preparation for destroying the Seanchan. The people's compassion towards his distress was one of the things that led him to abandon that plan and head for Dragonmount instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any other examples of this?

I've noticed it mentioned several times.

"Nenci whimpered as Falendre stroked the damane's head and tried to send soothing feelings through the

a'dam. That often seemed to work, but not so well today. Her own emotions were too roiled. If only she could forget that the

damane was shielded, and by whom. By what. Nenci whimpered again.

"You will deliver the message as I directed you?" a man said behind her.

No, not just any man. The sound of his voice stirred the pool of acid in her belly. She made herself turn to face him, made

herself meet those cold, hard eyes. They changed with the angle of his head, now blue, now gray, but always like polished

gemstones."

 

""There's already no turning back for me, Nynaeve," he said, his eyes intense. Those eyes shifted, sometimes seeming gray,

sometimes blue. Today, they looked iron gray. He continued, voice flat. "My feet started on this path the moment Tam found me

crying on that mountain."

 

Somehow I was sure that his eyes were never described as blue before the encounter with Moridin in SL. If I'm wrong on this then of course the whole thing with eyes is wrong.

Aha! the quote that Terez found is actually from before the encounter with Moridin so I guess I'm wrong on this one. Sorry for the disturbance, folks :)

 

Disturbance? No. It is definitely a significant occurrence if his eyes actually did change color. I just tend to think that it is more of a subtle difference in perception from moment to moment. Or a narrative tool to illustrate Rand's instability. Steel is described as blue and/or gray. In all instances you or others have shown the "now blue, now gray" description Rand was trying to turn himself to stone or steel. I think the gray/blue/gray eye shifts from other character POV's were just a metaphor for Rand's state of mind. But it could be that it was something much more substantial if his eyes were actually physically changing color.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think his eyes are described as both blue and gray even in the earliest books.

Even in 'Ravens' (when he was 12 years old):

 

"I'd like to be a king," Rand was saying. "That's what I'd like to be." He flourished his arm and made an awkward bow, laughing to show that he was joking. A good thing, too. Egwene grimaced. A king! She studied his face. No, he was not pretty. Well, perhaps he was. Maybe it did not matter. But it might be nice to have a husband she liked to look at. His eyes were blue. No, gray. They seemed to change while you watched. Nobody else in the Two Rivers had blue eyes. Sometimes his eyes looked sad. His mother had died when he was little, and Egwene thought he envied boys who had mothers. She could not imagine losing her mother. She did not even want to try.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rand's eye color doesn't have anything to do with anything - it's always been blue or gray, depending on how the light takes them.

 

The theory Dakota mentioned is a good one; it has the best potential to explain that particular oddity with the babies, though it doesn't really explain everything.

 

 

No. Gray and blue are two distinct colors and no amount of playing with lighting will make you mistake one for the other.

 

Rands eyes have always been described as gray and hard as stone. But recently more and more people are calling them blue, which is the eye color of Moridin. The common adage is after all that the eyes are the gateway to the soul. Since Rand and Moridin's soul seem to be merging on some level since the balefire incident it is a nice artistic touch to subtly hint at Rands eyes at times transforming into those of Moridin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also believe the cause of his nausea was because of the link with Moridin, but I could be wrong. In addition, I think that the light that is protecting him from the taint in his mind is also protecting him against the link. I don't think it is gone, just be blocked. I could be wrong about all of this though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There have been other theories on the cause of the dizzyness

 

I always thought the dizziness was the result of the slash Fain gave him across the stab wound he got from Ishy. I don't think Flinn is a darkfriend who set it up but just a result of the two "taints" fighting against each other. When he began his assault on Illian in CoS he noted the two seemed to resonate against each other.

 

I think it was what led him to figuring out how to cleanse the taint from Saidin.

 

The reason it is still there is because the darkness from the original wound came from Ishy's staff and not the OP.

 

Yes when I first brought up this theory (theory board after Aug10), it has mostly been ignored. However, since re-reading ACoS for the umpteenth time, the evidence is there. Look at the way Damer Flinn heals Rand. His comments are that he sealed it away for a time.

 

Later when Rand wakes up and seizes Saidin for the first time he mentions something red spiderwebed across the void. Later while in Shadar Logoth, he felt the injuries resonate against each other. All of this is prior to him crossing streams of balefire with Moridin.

 

However the Link with Moridin is probably caused by the balefire streams crossing, but the sickness is not

 

However since we haven't seen a viewpoint from Rand, it is hard to tell if it is really gone. Until we get one, we may as well not argue what causes it, or what doesn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...