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Yep, I still hate Min


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The real reason some people don't like Min is the simply fact that she isn't by their standards a "strong woman".

 

 

I think there is something to this. Min is a lousy avatar of 21st Century feminism, therefore for some readers cannot be an admirable character.

 

 

I never said I thought she wasn't a strong woman. That is NOT why I dislike her. I just don't think she is particularly useful. I don't think she helped keep Rand human, like many others do, I don't think her visions are useful, and I don't think that she has much to add to the story to date. And being 11 books into what was supposed to be a 10 book series, I think it is a little late to think that anything that happens this late in the game will get me to change my mind.

 

I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions).

 

I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min.

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Min is one of my favourite characters.

 

1. Min didn't cause Elayne's stupidity, Elayne caused that. It seems to be the case with every female character in this series that doesn't behave like a male.

 

2. Min is the only person in the entire novel that doesn't either bow down and scheme behind Rand's back, doesn't treat him as someone doomed to destroy the world, and doesn't see him in some way or another as a tool. One could argue that Elayne and Aviendha also fit those descriptions, but the two of them have hardly done anything to help Rand.

 

3. Min helped Siuan get out of the tower. Without Siuan, Egwene would have been a tool. Without prohax Egwene the White Tower would have been destroyed by the Seanchan. nuf said. spoke said it was a bad thing she helped Siuan get out. Think again.

 

4. She has helped multiple times with knives. (Admittedly this isn't much but still a help)

 

5. While her visions to some extent can be considered useless, have you ever heard of 'The enemy you know is always better than the one you don't'? Frankly if you think her ability is useless, then so is Dreaming and Foretelling. All three are the same ability in the end, just performed differently.

 

6. Min, Birgitte, and Moiraine are the only female characters in this entire series that are not annoying/stupid at one point or another. I suppose this is debatable though.

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The real reason some people don't like Min is the simply fact that she isn't by their standards a "strong woman". Simply because she doesn't torture her friends (Egwene) she isn't "strong" enough for them.
Talk about a non sequitur. I doubt very much that anyone who isn't a Min fan, or even any of randsc's evil feminists, would be more inclined to become a Min fan if she tortured her friends.

 

No, they wouldn't. That's why I dropped that part of the quote.

 

The fact remains that some people (not evil, just maybe a bit blindered) cannot see a female character as admirable if she plays second fiddle to a man. This attitude is evident in those who complain that she is nothing more than a sex toy.

 

I'll agree that Min is no hero, so far. But she shouldn't be scorned for not being an action figure.

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The real reason some people don't like Min is the simply fact that she isn't by their standards a "strong woman". Simply because she doesn't torture her friends (Egwene) she isn't "strong" enough for them.
Talk about a non sequitur. I doubt very much that anyone who isn't a Min fan, or even any of randsc's evil feminists, would be more inclined to become a Min fan if she tortured her friends.

 

No, they wouldn't. That's why I dropped that part of the quote.

 

The fact remains that some people (not evil, just maybe a bit blindered) cannot see a female character as admirable if she plays second fiddle to a man. This attitude is evident in those who complain that she is nothing more than a sex toy.

 

I'll agree that Min is no hero, so far. But she shouldn't be scorned for not being an action figure.

 

Min is no hero for keeping the Dragon Reborn from snapping and dooming humanity and for saving the White Tower? Who knew. She's been of more use so far than most female characters, you just ignore it. Just about every other female character has solved problem after problem... that they caused themselves.

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I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions).

 

I don't have the books handy so instead of actual quotes I will have to use my general memory. Sorry, I know that makes my case less compelling. There are several times that Min says the only time she feels any warmth or emotion (otherwise he is an inhuman stone) through the bond is when he looks at her. She works with Cadsuane in Far Madding when Rand is captured and she feels him hardening himself. But mostly it is just that she shows him love and support no matter what. She treats him like a man and not the Dragon Reborn. He has the world on his shoulders. Nobles and Aes Sedai constantly plot against him. He is going insane. Most view him as a terrifying monster. Even his childhood friend (Mat) is scared to be around him. He rages at everyone and is immensly powerful. Yet here is this little slip of a girl that never flinches, never abandons him, and does everything she can to show her love. How can that not have an effect on Rand?

 

I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min.

 

Tam was the catalyst for his breakdown, not the cause. He was just the final straw. He wasn't even trying to help Rand, he just wanted to see his son and talk to him. And why did Rand decide not to blow up the world? Because of love. And the chance to keep having love in the future. You really think that the love he has for Min (and his other two girlfriends) and her love for him had nothing to do with that realization?

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Min has had a few very important plot events that were overlooked.

 

1. She encouraged Rand's Insanity -- she spoke of two people merging and one dieing. Rand took this as 'Rand' and 'Lews Therin' instead of following the path to come back to normalcy. No one else could have done this.

 

2. She was a tool in Suian's escape from the tower.

 

3. She encouraged Elayne's Stupidity in Camelyn ("I am safe because the babies will be born healthy" stupidity).

 

On second thought, she has been more of a help for the Dark One than anything else, continuing the insanity, breaking the tower further, and encouraging Elayne's stupidity.

This is really weird logic. First, as already pointed, you can't blame Min for others misinterpreting her viewings or using them to justify reckless behavior. Second, Rand was going crazy regardless of the viewing, due to the taint and all the pressure on him, and Elayne was not exactly cautious before she knew of her viewing, so the effect of knowing those viewings was negligible.

 

As for point 2) - how is that a bad thing? The split was a fact with or without Siuan, and the Black Ajah would've extended it much longer without resolution if not for her influence.

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I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions).

 

I don't have the books handy so instead of actual quotes I will have to use my general memory. Sorry, I know that makes my case less compelling. There are several times that Min says the only time she feels any warmth or emotion (otherwise he is an inhuman stone) through the bond is when he looks at her. She works with Cadsuane in Far Madding when Rand is captured and she feels him hardening himself. But mostly it is just that she shows him love and support no matter what. She treats him like a man and not the Dragon Reborn. He has the world on his shoulders. Nobles and Aes Sedai constantly plot against him. He is going insane. Most view him as a terrifying monster. Even his childhood friend (Mat) is scared to be around him. He rages at everyone and is immensly powerful. Yet here is this little slip of a girl that never flinches, never abandons him, and does everything she can to show her love. How can that not have an effect on Rand?

 

I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min.

 

Tam was the catalyst for his breakdown, not the cause. He was just the final straw. He wasn't even trying to help Rand, he just wanted to see his son and talk to him. And why did Rand decide not to blow up the world? Because of love. And the chance to keep having love in the future. You really think that the love he has for Min (and his other two girlfriends) and her love for him had nothing to do with that realization?

 

Can I also point out that up until his realization of loving Min and the other two, he had already given up and was marching towards death. He had absolutely no intention of trying to live beyond the Last Battle. It was Min that kept telling him he wasn't going to die. I don't have an exact quote, but I'm certain somewhere Min says 'You're not going to die you *insert one of her insults here*, otherwise I'll kill you myself.' I could be wrong on that, maybe someone else said it. Min and the other two are the only reason he wants to live beyond TG. He has however with TOM accepted the possibility of death, he's just not aiming for it.

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I like min pre rand losing a hand

 

after that I realized she has been a burden on him in the field (I am saying when he is out and about doing stuff, except in TOM). She can be directly blamed for rand losing his hand since he stood his ground to prevent her from getting hit (or so I believe)

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I like min pre rand losing a hand

 

after that I realized she has been a burden on him in the field (I am saying when he is out and about doing stuff, except in TOM). She can be directly blamed for rand losing his hand since he stood his ground to prevent her from getting hit (or so I believe)

 

Agreed, she is largely responsible for him losing his hand. But it doesn't make her a bad person, she really thought that she and her knives could help Rand. She just made a mistake (and certainly not the worst one that we have seen one of the heroes make). And Rand also has to accept some responsibility for allowing her to come.

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I like Min. To be honest, she seems to me like one of the few characters in the series who actually cares about the world more than her own petty problems.

 

I'm re-reading TSR right now, and I'm at the place where Faile tricks Loial to take her along to the Two Rivers. Seems to me like most of Jordans characters act this way.

 

When Elayne got word that Rand had defeated Rahvin and intended to give her the Lion Throne, her first reaction was anger. And not anger because "He doesn't understand, Andor won't accept a puppet queen", but rather, anger because "He dares to give me the throne!". If I recall it correctly.

 

Mat cares first and foremost for himself, though he's honest about it.

 

Etc, etc. While there are characters who care about the world (Perrin, Moiraine, and a couple of others), the ones who put their hurt feelings before the fate of the world outnumber them.

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Hate Min?!? She's one of the few female characters, that if you took away her supernatural ability and met her in the real world you'd actually date, rather then run screaming (unless you are into being tortured).

 

She supports Rand - with Elayne and Aviendha off ignoring him, until Tam turns up she's the only one who forces him to consider the world isn't just pawns on a board, by just her presence.

 

Her helping Siuan escape is one of the key positives for the Light. Not that Egwene became Amyrlin, but Elaida is no longer the AS and as a result of Min having the split continue, Verin handed Egwene the Black Ajah (and hence the Tower) on a platter, without her (Egwene) having to do any of the heavy lifting there.

 

As for Elayne, if she's getting the blame for Elayne misinterpreting her viewing, does that mean she gets credit for every positive one? She she's Rand fighting the Shadow, surely she should get credit for Rand saving the world, by that perverse logic. Hmmm.

 

Her showing Rand merging you could just the same argue it opened Rand to accepting he and Lews Therin were always one in Veins of Gold and without it he would have refused it and became Dark Rand permanently. Though her viewing of Aes Sedai in Rand's hand earlier in the series prevented Dark Rand appearing earlier by imprisoning the Aes Sedai who captured him in a box and beating them in an 'eye for an eye' act. The world would have been screwed with Dark Rand around back in ACOS/TPOD, armed with the Chodean Kal. He would have trashed the Seanchan then after going nuts with Callandor. Or taken it to Tar Valon and ended up wiping out a White Tower led by Elaida when she refused to bend. You could legitimately argue Min, outside of Rand, by the support she's provided him - including via her visions - has been more important then anyone besides Rand, perhaps even more then Mat or Perrin.

 

Now Elayne - meh. Really if she'd died and been replaced by Dyelin, Rand could have had an Andor who brought armies to the Last Battle. Aviendha - even more so, her dead and what would have been lost to this point? Min has certainly been the most critical of the three to now.

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I like min pre rand losing a hand

 

after that I realized she has been a burden on him in the field (I am saying when he is out and about doing stuff, except in TOM). She can be directly blamed for rand losing his hand since he stood his ground to prevent her from getting hit (or so I believe)

When Rand lost his hand I thought we finally got to see a major character take actual, permanent damage. Then I realized that Rand is the only character in the entire series who would actually become more powerful due to the loss of a hand. The reason being that he finally abandoned the sword and relied on the OP exclusively. In short, by indirectly causing Rand to lose his hand she actually helped him, doubly so since it caused Moridin harm as well. More harm than Rand it seems, since Rand didn't seem to care overmuch about it.

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I generally like Min, but wish there was something/someone she cared about other than Rand. She's the only major female character without any sort of occupation or ambition. I don't care for Min as I do about characters we actually see struggling, who make sacrifices, who face difficult choices and conflicting loyalties. Her role in the last five books can be summed up as, "Min reads a book. Min wears snug pants. Min gives Rand a look of deep concern." Rand balefires a palace, which should have been the point where Min told Rand she doesn't want to sleep with a homicidal maniac, but she seems unwilling to rock the boat and leaves almost everything to Cadsuane, Nynaeve, and Tam.

 

Both Elayne and Aviendha have accepted a future without Rand and understood that their lives will go on. They have other people they are close to. Min has not accepted Rand's upcoming death or spent much time with other people after she hooked up with him. What will Min do if/when Rand dies? Rand is the center of her life, which is as unhealthy as Perrin's obsession with Faile.

 

I think Min deserves a lot of credit for helping keep Rand from completely going over the edge long before VoG, but it's plain bizarre that she never thought of telling Rand that Elayne is pregnant, or the viewing of Aviendha giving birth to quadruplets. The latter is especially important since it suggests Rand will survive TG. It seems a bit far-fetched that Min managed to forget both viewings when drunk and never saw anything again around Aviendha, whom she met again in TGS.

 

Aviendha is also guilty of this since she most definitely knows about Elayne's twins and her own children, but unlike Min, she never spent any time with Rand after bonding him. The only explanation I can think of is that they believe Elayne should be the one who tells Rand, but even so, Rand desperately needed to hear any positive news they could tell him. Learning that he's going to be a father would be a strong reason for him to want to leave behind a better world for his children to grow up in, making him feel like he isn't just there to die and be forgotten. Telling him only one day before he leaves for Shayol Ghul (by way of Elayne showing up pregnant) is pretty callous if not cruel.

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My only problem with Min is that I simply don't get when did she become Scholar who honestly thinks she can figure out what's wrong with Callandor. Or about anything else for that matter.

 

She did spend however long with that scholar librarian dude who was killed right before he was about to give Rand some major news on what he has to do. Not sure how long she spent doing that, but some of the other characters (egwene for instance) seems to learn things really really really fast, so why shouldn't min?

 

Someone else mentioned that it was very nice (sharing and not all greedy) of her to go talk to elayne and avi about Rand being in town and that they should all do the marriage bond thing, but she knows the viewing, that she will share him with those two women. one way or another it's going to happen, no use fighting against it, just deal with it.

 

Min is probably one of the most practical characters in the entire series. practical to a fault actually.

Edited by samataim
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I agree with whoever said people dont like her because she is not a feminist figure.

 

Yeah, she is not the most independant woman and she doesnt look down on all men, but seriously? Why is it bad for a woman to do "womanly" (as in housewife material etc...) things. Not all women have to be strong, independant and have an amazing career.

 

Yeah, Elayne and Egwene are the epitomy of a strong female in the 21st century. But thats basically spitting on all of stay-at-home moms and housewives by saying she is only a "sex-toy". (housewives, i believe, have a very important role in keeping families together, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to be one. Nor do I dislike women who have power. all i am saying is, just because a woman isnt a diehard feminist power, doesnt lessen her worth.)

 

Note: I am not pointing out any poster, just in general if that is what someone believes.

 

As for the debate if Min helped Rand keep his sanity or not. Heres a quote, Rand certainly seems to believe so. So I dont think that can really be debated. Min was important to Rand's sanity.

 

Towers of Midnight Chapter 25: Return to Bandar Eban

 

He(Rand)sat up straighter. "Oh Min. What would I do without you?"

 

She snorted. "You have kings and Aiel chiefs following you. Aes Sedai, Asha'man and ta'veren. I'm certain you'd get along."

 

"No," Rand said. "You're more vital than them all. You remind me who I am. Besides, you think more clearly than most of those who call themselves my counselors. You could be a Queen, if you wished it."

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I generally like Min, but wish there was something/someone she cared about other than Rand. She's the only major female character without any sort of occupation or ambition. I don't care for Min as I do about characters we actually see struggling, who make sacrifices, who face difficult choices and conflicting loyalties. Her role in the last five books can be summed up as, "Min reads a book. Min wears snug pants. Min gives Rand a look of deep concern." Rand balefires a palace, which should have been the point where Min told Rand she doesn't want to sleep with a homicidal maniac, but she seems unwilling to rock the boat and leaves almost everything to Cadsuane, Nynaeve, and Tam.

 

No occupation or ambition? Since Lord of Chaos, she's been giving herself a crash course on logic, philosophy and prophecy. While other people have been running around putting out fires, Min has been the only major character actively looking for a way to put down the arsonist. Since the death of Moiraine, Min has been one of the three primary advisors to Rand, and in his madness was the only person he fully trusted. As Rand put it in TOM, "You're more vital than them all. You remind me who I am. Besides, you think more clearly than most of those who call themselves my counselors. You could be a queen, if you wished it." She doesn't want to be a queen. The person we see wants Rand to survive and the Dark One to be defeated. Sure, she has no occupation other than as privy councilor to the most powerful person in the world, and performing research potentially vital to the survival of the world.

 

 

 

On a completely different note, while reading this thread, I came to an odd realization about Min that sets her apart from the other characters in the story. Of all the main characters in the Wheel of Time, she's the only one that I can think of offhand that hasn't killed anyone and who hasn't ordered anyone killed. Not even Shadowspawn so far as I can tell. Everyone else has blood on their hands to a greater or less extent. The closest that she's come is with Semirhage, wounding her twice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Darn you, Barid Bel Medar, for coming up with the same quote twenty minutes before I hit post!

Edited by Hopefire
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I agree with whoever said people dont like her because she is not a feminist figure.

 

Yeah, she is not the most independant woman and she doesnt look down on all men, but seriously? Why is it bad for a woman to do "womanly" (as in housewife material etc...) things. Not all women have to be strong, independant and have an amazing career.

 

Yeah, Elayne and Egwene are the epitomy of a strong female in the 21st century. But thats basically spitting on all of stay-at-home moms and housewives by saying she is only a "sex-toy". (housewives, i believe, have a very important role in keeping families together, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to be one. Nor do I dislike women who have power. all i am saying is, just because a woman isnt a diehard feminist power, doesnt lessen her worth.)

 

Note: I am not pointing out any poster, just in general if that is what someone believes.

 

As for the debate if Min helped Rand keep his sanity or not. Heres a quote, Rand certainly seems to believe so. So I dont think that can really be debated. Min was important to Rand's sanity.

 

Towers of Midnight Chapter 25: Return to Bandar Eban

 

He(Rand)sat up straighter. "Oh Min. What would I do without you?"

 

She snorted. "You have kings and Aiel chiefs following you. Aes Sedai, Asha'man and ta'veren. I'm certain you'd get along."

 

"No," Rand said. "You're more vital than them all. You remind me who I am. Besides, you think more clearly than most of those who call themselves my counselors. You could be a Queen, if you wished it."

 

+1 QFT

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Yeah, Elayne and Egwene are the epitomy of a strong female in the 21st century.
Your defense of old-fashioned gender roles* aside, this is a really strange statement.

 

* As an aside, I'm not sure what this has to do with Min. She's not a housewife sort in the least. In fact, the one premodern skill she seems to have is as a groom. Her psychological outlook is one of the most modern in the entire series, and if anything I'd mark her as Jordan's idea of a feminist character, with what he saw, as a southerner who grew up in the '50s, as the strengths and weaknesses of such.

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I have always liked Min and she is one of my most favourite characters after Nynaeve and Moiraine and she has quite literally kept Rand alive and sane. As said by Rand (can't remember the exact sentence, sorry), Min is the only one out of Elayne, Aviendha and Min that he can feel completely at ease with. That is one of the most important things a person - in this case Rand - needs, especially when surrounded by numerous people with whom he has never had any personal connection with. As for Min's visions, they have certainly if not helped people (Elayne, for instance) around her, then at least helped clarify or shed more light on a particular plotline. The only thing I'm hoping for is more of a substantial discovery from Herid Fel's books, but otherwise Min (IMO) is a great and valuable character.

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I like it how when someone says "I dont like this character" there is almost always someone else saying "But they did this and if they didnt the Shadow would have won so you should like her."

 

Min I find to be the definition of bland. There is only one thing I like about Min, and thats the fact that she doesnt like it when Rand Therin Sedai speaks.

 

And since when did she become an expert? It annoys me when Rand asks HER to find whats up with Callandor. If I was Rand I would much rather hand it over to Cadsuane once I lifted her exile, say to her "Ok shut up for five minutes and so some experimenting, tell me why its so special" rather than let MIN try and figure it out. I seriously dont see how reading a philosophers books would put Min into the knowledge field so much. Herid Fel spent his entire LIFE as a philosopher. Min reading a few dozen of his books, compared to actual channelers figuring it out... it just feels wrong.

 

Die Min die! Die, onscreen, by Moridins hand, in front of Rand.

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I like it how when someone says "I dont like this character" there is almost always someone else saying "But they did this and if they didnt the Shadow would have won so you should like her."

 

If I may, I'm not sure that that's quite what's happening here. It wasn't just "I don't like this character." That's an opinion, and okay. It was, "I don't like this character because xyz." In this case, xyz = Min hasn't done anything useful.

 

In eslectha's first post, s/he (sorry, eslectha, I have no idea! :D) stated, right at the start, that, "Min, however still seems completely useless to me." Myrenna responded to that with, "I completely understand what you mean about Min being completely pointless!"

 

Many other posters, headed by a good point-by-point rebuttal by Mark but supported by several other responses, countered that by arguing that Min does actually have a purpose. At the very least, they all seem to agree that Rand has needed her to stay sane(ish). Since Rand himself has stated the same thing several times in-book (see Hopefire's post above for a prime example), I think it's a pretty reasonable argument to make.

 

Now, if you don't like her, you don't like her. But the argument about Min's usefulness did spring from some pretty clear statements on the part of those who dislike her that a large part of the *cause* for their dislike is her apparent superfluousness. The others were just responding to that. :)

Edited by Teutonic Titwillow
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No occupation or ambition? Since Lord of Chaos, she's been giving herself a crash course on logic, philosophy and prophecy. While other people have been running around putting out fires, Min has been the only major character actively looking for a way to put down the arsonist. Since the death of Moiraine, Min has been one of the three primary advisors to Rand, and in his madness was the only person he fully trusted. As Rand put it in TOM, "You're more vital than them all. You remind me who I am. Besides, you think more clearly than most of those who call themselves my counselors. You could be a queen, if you wished it."

No, she could not. Unless Rand gave her a throne, which wouldn't surprise me considering he wanted to give Elayne the throne of Cairhien despite other people like Dobraine being far more qualified and deserving. Being the Dragon's girlfriend trumps all other qualifications, apparently.

 

And don't get me started on why Rand has Brown and White sisters sworn to him who are apparently twiddling their thumbs while Min is expected to figure out everything on her own. In TGS, Min reaches the conclusion that the "three becoming one" passage refers to Callandor...which Cadsuane already knew. It makes no sense why Rand doesn't gather all scholars available to him and make them work together. With LTT's memories and knowledge of the Old Tongue, he should be able to figure out a lot himself without needing to rely on possibly misleading translations like Min does.

 

I think one of the reasons Min refuses to accept that Rand might die is that the consequences are too devastating to consider. She'll suffer from a severed Warder bond and have nobody else to rely on than Elayne and Aviendha (who have busy lives and are much closer to each other). I believe all three of Rand's women love him equally, but Min's the only one who has made him the center of her world. I cannot see that as a good thing, and it has nothing to do with Min being female. Perrin also fixated too much on another person, and look where it brought him. Min has no plans for the future, no income, no other loyalties, shows no interest in doing anything specific for a living, never worries about what's happening to her aunts/home town/Andor. Everything in her life revolves around Rand.

 

On a completely different note, while reading this thread, I came to an odd realization about Min that sets her apart from the other characters in the story. Of all the main characters in the Wheel of Time, she's the only one that I can think of offhand that hasn't killed anyone and who hasn't ordered anyone killed. Not even Shadowspawn so far as I can tell.

Yet she believed herself qualified to be Rand's bodyguard. Instead of insisting on coming along to the meeting with the Seanchan, she should have let one of the Maidens -- guaranteed to be more useful in a fight -- take that place. End result: Rand lost a hand.

 

She knows that Rand would protect her before protecting himself. And if she actually got herself killed protecting him, he'd suffer the effects of a severed Warder bond. It's a lose-lose situation.

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She knows that Rand would protect her before protecting himself. And if she actually got herself killed protecting him, he'd suffer the effects of a severed Warder bond. It's a lose-lose situation.

 

I thought Min went along to see if there are any viewings around "Tuon/Semirhage" that Rand should know about.

 

Also I thought that that's the reason she sticks at his side at all time, to see if she could "view" anything useful for Rand.

Edited by Ananta
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No occupation or ambition? Since Lord of Chaos, she's been giving herself a crash course on logic, philosophy and prophecy. While other people have been running around putting out fires, Min has been the only major character actively looking for a way to put down the arsonist. Since the death of Moiraine, Min has been one of the three primary advisers to Rand, and in his madness was the only person he fully trusted. As Rand put it in TOM, "You're more vital than them all. You remind me who I am. Besides, you think more clearly than most of those who call themselves my counselors. You could be a queen, if you wished it."

No, she could not. Unless Rand gave her a throne, which wouldn't surprise me considering he wanted to give Elayne the throne of Cairhien despite other people like Dobraine being far more qualified and deserving. Being the Dragon's girlfriend trumps all other qualifications, apparently.

 

Yes, she could, for exactly the reason you name. Rand could give her one; if she was the type of person who wanted to be a queen, he'd give her a throne. Of course, then she wouldn't be Min. As things stood at the time he said that, he still had a vacant throne in Cairhien and a missing king in Arad Doman that he could give her. Further, he's the king of Illian; he could either give her that throne or marry her to make her queen. Alternatively, he could name her his second and heir, and give her a title like Lady of the Morning or some such.

 

Min's qualifications are no worse than those of say, Perrin or Egwene or Nynaeve. But as noted: it's not what she wants. She's a scholar. Given how quickly the other main characters have advanced in their respective fields, I think that it's pretty likely that Min is now effectively on their level in her own field. Further, given that the primary mortal antagonist is himself a philosopher (It was philosophy his philosophy taken to its logical ends that led him to evil, for goodness sakes!) I think that philosophy is important in the overall picture.

 

 

And don't get me started on why Rand has Brown and White sisters sworn to him who are apparently twiddling their thumbs while Min is expected to figure out everything on her own. In TGS, Min reaches the conclusion that the "three becoming one" passage refers to Callandor...which Cadsuane already knew. It makes no sense why Rand doesn't gather all scholars available to him and make them work together. With LTT's memories and knowledge of the Old Tongue, he should be able to figure out a lot himself without needing to rely on possibly misleading translations like Min does.

 

The Brown and White sisters have had 3000 years to look at the problems and haven't produced answers. Min appears to be on the right track, noting the flaws in Callandor and bringing up breaking the seals.

 

 

I think one of the reasons Min refuses to accept that Rand might die is that the consequences are too devastating to consider. She'll suffer from a severed Warder bond and have nobody else to rely on than Elayne and Aviendha (who have busy lives and are much closer to each other). I believe all three of Rand's women love him equally, but Min's the only one who has made him the center of her world. I cannot see that as a good thing, and it has nothing to do with Min being female. Perrin also fixated too much on another person, and look where it brought him. Min has no plans for the future, no income, no other loyalties, shows no interest in doing anything specific for a living, never worries about what's happening to her aunts/home town/Andor. Everything in her life revolves around Rand.

 

If Rand dies, I can easily see Min following Fel's path and going to one of Rand's schools to write and to teach philosophy and logic. Some of the greatest minds in our own history have been philosophers first and foremost - Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, William of Ockham, Roger Bacon, Erasmus, Montaigne, Machiavelli, Hobbes, Descartes, Locke, Spinoza, Leibniz, Berkeley, Rousseau, Hume, Kant, Marx and Nietzsche. We might have to agree to disagree about whether or not what Min is doing and its relative importance. To say the least, I consider philosophy to be important, and I believe it will be important come the Last Battle.

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