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The Dark Prophecy from TGH


navahgar
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In The Great Hunt we see a Dark Prophecy written on the prison wall:

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

My first, overarching question, is whether we should give this prophecy the same respect that we give the Light-side prophecies. Is this like the end of Bill and Ted's Bogus journey, where only the winners get to go back in time and plant the props? My instinct is that that is not the case; that the Dark Prophecies should be given as much respect as any other prophecy.

 

Now, I also have a few questions about a few of those lines. I'll break it up stanza by stanza:

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

I think we can be fairly confident that the Daughter of the Night is Lanfear, and the ancient war is the battle between the Dark Lord and the forces of light. On the one hand, the 'new lover' may be Rand, 'new' because although he still is Lews Therin, he is a new person. However, in what sense can he be called her 'lover'? Rand clearly did not choose Lanfear.....yet. If it is Rand, then how has he 'serve[d] her and die[d], yet serve[d] still'? He's not dead yet, and as far as I can tell has not served her before his death. Maybe this is something that will come true in the future. Something that might be hinted at with the scene in the epilogue pertaining to Lanfear's soul. On the other hand, maybe her 'new lover' is NOT Rand. If so, is there another character that can be said to be her lover, who has died and served her before and after death? Asmodean (maybe serving her after death through the doubt he raised in Rand's mind?). Someone else? Finally, what are the Shining Walls? The capitalization leads me to think that is a proper name. Maybe the walls of Tar Valon (but was she involved in that attack?)?

 

The second and third stanzas seem pretty straight forward. So let's move to the fourth:

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

The first line seems answered by the end of The Great Hunt. The second line may allude to the fact that the Seanchan are burning up the Almoth Plain, which apparently has some sort of tree emblem. Also, if Rand could in some way be the seed of the Hammer, then it could have been fulfilled literally when Rand actually burned the tree in Rhuidean. Of course, this raises the question, could Rand be of the seed of the Hammer (the Hammer I'm assuming is Artur Hawkwing). Maybe the house of Andor has some connection to Hawkwing? This Rand-seed connection is useful because the penultimate line speaks of the 'seed slay[ing] ancient wrong'. Maybe the 'ancient wrong' is the taint on saidin, which Rand slayed in Aridhol? That's a stretch I know, not least because it's strange to think of the shadow calling the taint a 'wrong'. This next guess is out there, but let's say the 'seed' is related to the Seanchan, then maybe Rand himself is the 'ancient wrong' (wouldn't Shaitan think of the representative of his jailor as an ancient wrong?), and the slaying is what also fulfills the whole blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul thing. This fits with Alivia being the person who helps him die.

 

Thoughts?

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Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

To answer your questions. Her "new lover she seeks" is obviously Rand, but that doesn't mean that he accepts her as a lover, seeking does not mean obtaining. You may be onto something about how he will serve her, but there are plenty of prophecies alluding to his death.

 

Next the Shining Walls are a common reference to Tar Valon.

 

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

This is mostly seanchan on Almoth Plain. Luthair Pendrag is the Hammer, his decendants are his seed.

as for burning the ancient tree, the flag of the people in that region was avendesora or the ancient tree.

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To answer your questions. Her "new lover she seeks" is obviously Rand, but that doesn't mean that he accepts her as a lover, seeking does not mean obtaining. You may be onto something about how he will serve her, but there are plenty of prophecies alluding to his death.

 

Yeah, I know that this is the general consensus, and I agree, I just wanted to try to look at the phrase objectively. Also, that explanation glosses over the 'new' part of the lover. It could easily have said 'Her lover she seeks'. Regardless, one thing that continues to confuse/amaze me is how people are so willing to forget the second half of that line: "who shall serve her and die, yet serve still." If everyone's so sure that it's Rand, then what about this part of the prophecy. Now that there is some indication that Lanfear is not gone as a threat (ToM Epilogue), I hope that there is more discussion about this line, because I think it was a big clue in tGH that Lanfear was going to be, at least moderately, successful.

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We know from a great many sources of prophecy that Rand will die; that's hardly an insurmountable obstacle to her new lover being Rand. How will he die? Well, most people probably think that his death will "free mankind from the Shadow", by being directly implicated in the re-sealing of the Bore. So if that's the interpretation, then Rand re-sealing Shai'tan will be of some use to Cyndane, possibly in freeing her from torment; who knows.

 

There's also terez's theory that Moridin is Cyndane's new lover (for a liberal definition of 'lover'), which I personally find disgusting, but needs to be thrown out as a possibility.

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Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

Alternative theory.

 

This is talking about Tuon, the daughter of the nine moons. (who is lanfear the daughter of? Never heard anyone refer to her as a daughter)

The ancient war that she fights is her re conquring of the lands left behind by Author Hawking.

Mat has already died, and then revived.

Tuon and the Senchan empire also seem the most likely to take Tar Valon.

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That's an interesting interpretation, but it's stated several times that Lanfear means "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

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That's an interesting interpretation, but it's stated several times that Lanfear means "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

 

ah you're right.

 

my bad, Im one of those terrible people who have only read the series once, so I had forgotten that

 

Wish I had time for that 2nd read through :(

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  • 3 weeks later...

I just finished rereading TGH and I find the same parts of this prophecy extremely confusing.

The first one is the strangest of all.

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

I'm sure it means Lanfear and Rand but I can't make anything out of the last line. Whatever come I have a hard time seeing that Rand will still serve Lanfear after his death.

Is this a true prophecy? perhaps not. Or maybe some parts of it are prophetic and others are not. Maybe it's like a dream - something that might occur but doesn't absolutely have to. After all Moiraine saw in the terangreal in Rhuidean that one possible result of her confrontation with Lanfear was that Lanfear would take Rand away and when he came back he would be her devoted lover.

 

 

 

 

The line

 

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

 

is very confusing too. As others have said the seed seems to refer to Seanchan but what ancient wrong can it slay and do so again? Some ancient wrong related to Hawkwing like his treatment of Aes Sedai? but the again part does not fit here. Or some even more ancient wrong?

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Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

To answer your questions. Her "new lover she seeks" is obviously Rand, but that doesn't mean that he accepts her as a lover, seeking does not mean obtaining. You may be onto something about how he will serve her, but there are plenty of prophecies alluding to his death.

 

Next the Shining Walls are a common reference to Tar Valon.

 

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

This is mostly seanchan on Almoth Plain. Luthair Pendrag is the Hammer, his decendants are his seed.

as for burning the ancient tree, the flag of the people in that region was avendesora or the ancient tree.

 

All crap, only thing with validity is the "her new lover" thing, which I think is clearly mierien, which explains the lanfear dream. A hope that Rand with LTT in house as a ready to access bing (bing because google is fascist) in his search engine. But after rand tapped 3 sweet hotties, that he will turn to mieren shows that the shadow is stupid.

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Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

 

How about:

Lanfear (who is in trouble), seeks her lover (in his new form). He shall serve by freeing her from her current predicament (by sealing away the DO) and die in the process, but, since she remains free he can be said to be serving her still.

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Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

 

How about:

Lanfear (who is in trouble), seeks her lover (in his new form). He shall serve by freeing her from her current predicament (by sealing away the DO) and die in the process, but, since she remains free he can be said to be serving her still.

Hmm, not bad but the last part about serving her after death doesn't really fit IMO.

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We know from a great many sources of prophecy that Rand will die; that's hardly an insurmountable obstacle to her new lover being Rand. How will he die? Well, most people probably think that his death will "free mankind from the Shadow", by being directly implicated in the re-sealing of the Bore. So if that's the interpretation, then Rand re-sealing Shai'tan will be of some use to Cyndane, possibly in freeing her from torment; who knows.

 

There's also terez's theory that Moridin is Cyndane's new lover (for a liberal definition of 'lover'), which I personally find disgusting, but needs to be thrown out as a possibility.

Brandon debunked that one, alas. Luckers asked him if Moridin was gay, and he said he couldn't remember anything in the notes indicating one way or the other. I'm sure if Cyndane was his love slave that Brandon would know.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Great topic. Any other thoughts here?

 

The most interesting lines are:

 

 

--

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

--

 

 

If the Daughter of Night is Lanfear, then is she to take Tar Valon? How can she do that now?

 

The seed seems to be the Seanchan but what is this ancient wrong? So many unanswered questions!

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We know from a great many sources of prophecy that Rand will die; that's hardly an insurmountable obstacle to her new lover being Rand. How will he die? Well, most people probably think that his death will "free mankind from the Shadow", by being directly implicated in the re-sealing of the Bore. So if that's the interpretation, then Rand re-sealing Shai'tan will be of some use to Cyndane, possibly in freeing her from torment; who knows.

 

There's also terez's theory that Moridin is Cyndane's new lover (for a liberal definition of 'lover'), which I personally find disgusting, but needs to be thrown out as a possibility.

Brandon debunked that one, alas. Luckers asked him if Moridin was gay, and he said he couldn't remember anything in the notes indicating one way or the other. I'm sure if Cyndane was his love slave that Brandon would know.

I fail to get how Morridin not being gay means that Cyndane is not Morridin's "lover"??

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It's that Brandon didn't remember anything on Moridin's sexuality either way. This means that there's nothing highly memorable in the notes regarding the Nae'blis in bed, and him being with Cyndane would certainly be memorable. (Also rather gross, IMO). Certainly him not being gay doesn't disqualify him from being with Cyndane (the reverse would be true, if anything), it's the him not having any big notes either way part.

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I think you have to look at this from the prospective of the Shadow, what is the "ancient wrong." Is it the Aes Sedai, who watch the seals and have opposed the Dark One for Ages? If so, then the Seanchan coming to hammer the Aes Sedai and the shining walls makes a lot more sense.

 

Or this way, if I'm shadow-side my biggest worries are probably the Dragon, Mat and Perrin, and the White Tower.

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Is this like the end of Bill and Ted's Bogus journey, where only the winners get to go back in time and plant the props?

 

A Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey reference?

 

I think my day is complete. Thank you. :biggrin:

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Maybe rand via his andoran parentage is somehow descended from Hawkwing, and his destruction of Avendesora in fighting Asmodean is what is meant by seed of the Hammer burning the tree?

 

the shining walls are definitely tar valon.

 

As for lanfear and her lover - remember that Moiraine saw possible futures when she visited the Rings of Rhuidean, and in one of them, Lanfear took Rand from the docks of Cairhien and he came back as her lover LTT. Perhaps the prophecy is referring to that possible future. Someone (Suian or Moiraine) said that the prophecies are NOT guarantees of what is going to happen, they merely set the stage and make the most likely futures clear. So this might be referring to one potential future, one which the Shadow would prefer, since Rand turning into LTT and besotted with Lanfear is to their advantage (as opposed to Rand integrating LTT into his psyche to become Zen-Rand)

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Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

Alternative theory.

 

This is talking about Tuon, the daughter of the nine moons. (who is lanfear the daughter of? Never heard anyone refer to her as a daughter)

The ancient war that she fights is her re conquring of the lands left behind by Author Hawking.

Mat has already died, and then revived.

Tuon and the Senchan empire also seem the most likely to take Tar Valon.

 

 

That's an interesting interpretation, but it's stated several times that Lanfear means "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

 

 

Yes, it is stated. But what a misdirection though, huh?

 

Honestly I think it does reference Lanfear, but it's completely valid that it could turn out to be Tuon. Mind=Blown if that was the case.

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who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

 

that's Asmo right? Serves Lanfear, "died=lost connection to the DO", and then served Rand,in that way he still serves Lanfear as well, it was here Idea that Asmo would teach Rand.

 

Her new lover she seeks,

although it's on the same line as the quote above, I don't think it's directly connected and doesn't need to describe the same person.

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In The Great Hunt we see a Dark Prophecy written on the prison wall:

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

My first, overarching question, is whether we should give this prophecy the same respect that we give the Light-side prophecies. Is this like the end of Bill and Ted's Bogus journey, where only the winners get to go back in time and plant the props? My instinct is that that is not the case; that the Dark Prophecies should be given as much respect as any other prophecy.

 

Now, I also have a few questions about a few of those lines. I'll break it up stanza by stanza:

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

I think we can be fairly confident that the Daughter of the Night is Lanfear, and the ancient war is the battle between the Dark Lord and the forces of light. On the one hand, the 'new lover' may be Rand, 'new' because although he still is Lews Therin, he is a new person. However, in what sense can he be called her 'lover'? Rand clearly did not choose Lanfear.....yet. If it is Rand, then how has he 'serve[d] her and die[d], yet serve[d] still'? He's not dead yet, and as far as I can tell has not served her before his death. Maybe this is something that will come true in the future. Something that might be hinted at with the scene in the epilogue pertaining to Lanfear's soul. On the other hand, maybe her 'new lover' is NOT Rand. If so, is there another character that can be said to be her lover, who has died and served her before and after death? Asmodean (maybe serving her after death through the doubt he raised in Rand's mind?). Someone else? Finally, what are the Shining Walls? The capitalization leads me to think that is a proper name. Maybe the walls of Tar Valon (but was she involved in that attack?)?

 

The second and third stanzas seem pretty straight forward. So let's move to the fourth:

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

The first line seems answered by the end of The Great Hunt. The second line may allude to the fact that the Seanchan are burning up the Almoth Plain, which apparently has some sort of tree emblem. Also, if Rand could in some way be the seed of the Hammer, then it could have been fulfilled literally when Rand actually burned the tree in Rhuidean. Of course, this raises the question, could Rand be of the seed of the Hammer (the Hammer I'm assuming is Artur Hawkwing). Maybe the house of Andor has some connection to Hawkwing? This Rand-seed connection is useful because the penultimate line speaks of the 'seed slay[ing] ancient wrong'. Maybe the 'ancient wrong' is the taint on saidin, which Rand slayed in Aridhol? That's a stretch I know, not least because it's strange to think of the shadow calling the taint a 'wrong'. This next guess is out there, but let's say the 'seed' is related to the Seanchan, then maybe Rand himself is the 'ancient wrong' (wouldn't Shaitan think of the representative of his jailor as an ancient wrong?), and the slaying is what also fulfills the whole blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul thing. This fits with Alivia being the person who helps him die.

 

Thoughts?

The Daughter of the Night may not be Lanfear. It could be Tuon, the Daughter of the Nine Moons, still fighting the war against the Aes Seadi. Her new Lover would be Mat. Yes, I know she is no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons, but she was when she arrived and started the fight.

 

EDIT: Didn't read far enough. I still think its Tuon though.

Edited by RedRaider
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The Daughter of the Night may not be Lanfear. It could be Tuon, the Daughter of the Nine Moons, still fighting the war against the Aes Seadi. Her new Lover would be Mat. Yes, I know she is no longer the Daughter of the Nine Moons, but she was when she arrived and started the fight.

 

EDIT: Didn't read far enough. I still think its Tuon though.

her new lover? who is her old lover then?

and this:

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

and how does this work? was Tuon crippled before so she couldn't walk?

Edited by herid
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The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood...

Still find it hard to fit to Rand in the immediate tGH sense or larger series, at least the third stanza. Ishidin has possibilities, but not within tGH. ETA: Rand in TGS can fit too.

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

Now the Great Lord comes.

First two lines: First Seanchan invasion.

 

Summer burn is roughly books 5 through 8.

 

Bodies fail could be the food thing, but that's partly Rand too. Not that the shadow would fail to take credit for suffering :)

 

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, that's a tough one. From the shadow standpoint, definitely not taint on the power, perhaps Aridhol, but either make Rand the seed when that was generically the Seanchan or at least the Blood. Perhaps the Seals...again the seed problem.

 

I'd have to refresh myself on Hawkwing's descendants...he dies, his sons go all over, there's a big war...

 

(8 months til ToM paperback, maybe there's something there.)

Edited by Cybertrolloc
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I think this prophesy applies (pretty much) only to the book in which is was delivered. There is an explanation for each stanza. Also, you should remember that prophesies in WOT are only what MAY happen. Rand thinks of his prophesies as requirements for him to accomplish before meeting the DO. Just because there is a prophesy does not mean it will happen, just that it may if conditions are right.

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