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Which Forsaken Is Represented by the Tallest of the Thirteen Towers of Midnight?


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  1. 1. Which Forsaken is represented by the tallest tower in Egwene's dream?

    • Ishamael / Moridin
      62
    • Graendal
      5
    • Mesaana
      0
    • Demandred
      2
    • Moghedien
      0
    • Lanfear / Cyndane
      7
    • Aginor / Osan'gar
      0
    • Another Forsaken
      0
    • A Non-Forsaken
      0


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Note: This topic assumes that Egwene's dream of thirteen black towers in Towers of Midnight refers to the Forsaken. For discussion on what else it might mean, see the topic Towers of Midnight.

 

Another Note: This is a long post, so if you don't like long posts then be warned that you're about to waste your time. Really, it's only for people who like nitpicking the prophecies of WoT.

 

In Chapter 3 of ToM, Egwene dreams about thirteen black towers which represent the Forsaken. One of them partially collapses and then comes back tallest of all. The consensus is that each tower represents a Forsaken, with this tallest one representing Ishamael, who was defeated as Ba'alzamon and then returned to become Nae'blis as Moridin. However, there hasn't been much debate on this consensus, and, the more I think about it, the wronger it seems to be.

 

First of all, Egwene's dreams are prophetic. I have reviewed all of her dreams, and each one of them contains at least some element which occurs in the future. At the end of her dream of the thirteen towers, six remain standing—one of them the tallest of all. But at the time of her dream, there are already only six Forsaken alive (if we assume Aginor is still dead): Moridin, Mesaana, Moghedien, Graendal, Demandred, and Cyndane. If the tallest one represents Moridin as the Nae'blis, then her entire dream contains no elements which have yet to occur. That can't be right.

 

So, which Forsaken does the tallest tower actually represent?

 

Right away, we can rule out the balefired Forsaken: Be'lal, Rahvin, Asmodean (based on the Sherlock Holmes theory), Semirhage, and Balthamel. We can also rule out Sammael, assuming RJ was telling us the truth when he said Sammy is toast. That leaves the six living Forsaken, and Aginor. It has to be one of those seven.

 

Seven towers in the dream crumble and fall away (given that six are left standing). Because that there have been eight Forsaken deaths by the time of Egwene's dream (due to Forsaken reincarnations; Aginor and Balthamel died twice), the towers must crumble only when a Forsaken is totally destroyed. The order in which Forsaken have been totally destroyed is:

 

Be'lal: Book 3 (TDR), Ch. 55

Rahvin: Book 5 (TFoH), Ch. 55

Asmodean: Book 5 (TFoH), Ch. 56

Sammael: Book 7 (ACoS), Ch. 41

Semirhage: Book 12 (TGS), Ch. 22

Balthamel: Book 12 (TGS), Ch. 37 (learned in Prologue of ToM)

 

Thus it cannot be until TGS at the earliest that the last of the seven towers crumbled and fell.

 

Now, let's get to the text of Egwene's dream:

 

All was dust around Egwene, and thirteen black towers rose in the distance beneath a tarlike sky. One fell, and then another, crashing to the ground. As they did, the ones that remained grew taller and taller. The ground shook as several more towers fell. Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

 

At the end of the quake, six towers remained, looming above her. Egwene had fallen to the ground, which had become soft earth covered in withered leaves.

 

Which Parts of the Dream Have Already Occurred?

 

The entire dream doesn't necessarily have to represent the future, and we know in this case that part of this dream has already come to pass, because when Egwene has her dream six Forsaken are already totally destroyed. For their towers to crumble during the dream requires the dream to have a broad timeline, partly occurring in the past.

 

What about the tower which becomes the tallest? At the time of Egwene's dream, has its partial collapse already happened? Is it in progress but not yet complete? Is it yet to begin at all?

 

That's a hard question to answer, given what information we have. Let's approach it from a different angle.

 

The dream itself appears to have a certain order to it. One tower collapses, then another, then several more, and then the tower which partially collapses and rises up to become the tallest. (Let's call it “Tower F8” so that I don't have to keep writing out “the tower which becomes the tallest.”) At the end of the dream, seven towers have crumbled completely and an eighth has partially crumbled but recovered (Tower F8), so there are six towers left in total.

 

At what point in time in the series are there six Forsaken left who have not been totally destroyed? It turns out, there are only three possible answers to that, with Aginor and Mesaana being the variables.

 

By the time of Egwene's dream, only six Forsaken, not seven, are confirmed totally destroyed. Aginor (as Osan'gar) is dead but not irretrievably dead. Now, it could be that Egwene's dream reflects a decision on the Dark One's part not to resurrect Aginor, in which case the seventh tower crumbled when Balthamel (as Aran'gar) died at Natrin's Barrow. But that requires an assumption on our part as to the Dark One's thinking, which we can't prove. If Aginor is not counted as totally destroyed, then the seventh tower crumbles, at the earliest, with Mesaana's defeat later in ToM. But we also can't assume that Mesaana is totally destroyed; her mind might be retrievable through a transmigration. We don't know. (But it would be a good question for somebody to ask Brandon.)

 

So, there are three possible moments in time to mark the end of the falling of the seventh tower (and thus the rise of Tower F8 to its peak prominence):

 

TGS Ch. 37 (Natrin's Barrow, when Aran'gar is balefired)

ToM Ch. 38 (Tel'aran'rhiod), when Mesaana is mind-mashed)

Unknown point in AmoL, when unknown Forsaken is totally destroyed

 

We can't know for sure, based on the information we have, that Tower F8 begins to crumble after the first seven towers crumbled completely. Even though the imagery and the text order of Egwene's dream strongly suggest it, there is enough ambiguity that we can't make an assumption. However, what we can deduce is that the completion of its rise to prominence must occur after the seven towers have crumbled, and thus after one of the three points in time listed above. This deduction is based on the fact that part of Egwene's dream must occur in the future, because that is how her dreams work. The only parts of the dream that we can safely presume are in the future are the six remaining towers, including the tallness factor of Tower F8.

 

Now we can draw an inference: Because nothing significant happened between Natrin's Barrow and the end of ToM to indicate that one of the Forsaken has newly risen above all the others in some important way, we can infer that Egwene's dream refers to something that has not yet happened as of the end of ToM, or something that has only just happened in ToM but will not be revealed until AMoL.

 

The general consensus is wrong. Since Moridin is stated to be the Nae'blis long before Natrin's Barrow, then, if Tower F8 does in fact refer to Moridin, it's not because he was defeated and came back as Nae'blis.

 

Analyzing the Dream

 

If Moridin isn't a foregone conclusion, then which Forsaken is represented by the tallest tower? Based on the information we have, it may be impossible to answer that definitively, but we can speculate based on the surviving five, Aginor, and Mesaana. Let's find out which of them qualify.

 

Let's go back to the dream and look at everything that happened. We've already noticed that part of it represents events in the past (the total destruction of several Forsaken). We've also deduced that the last part of it, the six towers remaining with one of them taller than the rest, hasn't come to pass by the time of Egwene's dream.

 

Here are two other things to notice.

 

First, all of the remaining towers grow in prominence as others fall. This is a very peculiar point, since the actual power and threat factor of the Forsaken has been on the decline for much of the series due to multiple defeats, the thinning of their membership, and the gain in strength and knowledge of our heroes. What could it mean for the remaining towers to become more significant as others fall? Do the remaining Forsaken have a role to play other than as the villains they have been so far? Does the crumbling of a tower possibly represent something other than the final destruction of a Forsaken? This observation, as best I can tell, yields only questions and no answers.

 

Second, Tower F8 starts out at an unspecified level of prominence, nearly collapses, and then rises back to become the most prominent of all. Because it is described as becoming the most prominent, we can assume that, relatively speaking, it was not as prominent to begin with. It might still have been the most prominent relative to the others—we don't know—but, after almost collapsing, it came back even more prominent. Such a description tells us that, to qualify for being represented by this Tower F8, a Forsaken must undergo some great defeat and then come back to pose an extraordinary threat. That's a very useful piece of information.

 

Which Forsaken Is Represented by the Tallest Tower of Midnight?

 

Let's explore which of the seven possible Forsaken have endured a great defeat of some kind. It turns out to be all of them except Demandred. Thus, if the tower represents him, it hasn't begun collapsing yet, unless he has suffered some great defeat we don't know about.

 

Moridin was defeated many times, most dramatically when he was killed as Ishamael in TDR and when Rand stood upon Dragonmount in TGS. Moridin is also in the process of succumbing to a bond with Rand in which the two of them are becoming less distinguishable from each other.

 

Mesaana got brutalized by Shaidar Haran, and then got her mind crushed in T'A'R.

 

Moghedien has also been defeated on more than one occasion, and was also mindtrapped—a defeat which persists as of the end of ToM.

 

Graendal was doing well until her power base was destroyed in TGS, and then in ToM she seems to have been stripped of her authority and independence.

 

Cyndane is a huge question mark, having been in a state of defeat at least since the end of TfoH, and among her sufferings is a mindtrap, the loss of her Lanfear body, a reduction in channeling power, and, possibly, continual torturing by some unidentified evil.

 

To our knowledge, none of these five has yet risen from their worst defeats to dominate the Forsaken, except Moridin, but Moridin did so before Egwene's dream. We can't rule him out, but he is definitely not a sure bet.

 

It could be any one of them. So let's change tactics and look at things from a dramatic angle. From a dramatic point of view, which of the Forsaken might plausibly qualify to be represented by Tower F8?

 

Moridin is a possibility. He does seem to be the greatest of the Dark One's agents in the world.

 

Demandred is unlikely. For him to suffer a major defeat in AMoL and then be hoisted far above the rest of the Forsaken would be very tacked on, since he has played no significant role in the series thus far.

 

Moghedien is unlikely, because she is such a pathetic villain and it wouldn't be satisfying for her to become the worst threat. However, the full significance of her mastery in T'A'R has never been revealed, so, while it's a long shot, we can't rule her out on story grounds, because RJ has potentially given us the foreshadowing that would justify such a development.

 

Mesaana has been subjected to two of the worst living fates: rape by Shaidar Haran, and the destruction of her mind. She has indeed been brought down very low. But, from a story standpoint, her role is finished. She tried to bring down the White Tower, and was defeated by the head of the White Tower. To bring her back now, let alone as a major threat, would be the equivalent of “Saruman lived and has taken over the Shire.” One thing works in her favor, though: If we interpret Egwene's dream as highly Egwene-centric, then Mesaana has every reason to loom large, since Mesaana's target is the White Tower. If that's the case, and Tower F8 refers to Mesaana, then the whole prophecy is something of a letdown, because that means that it is fulfilled by the end of ToM.

 

Graendal is a possibility. She has been one of the most active Forsaken in terms of on-screen action and PsOV. She remarked on the defeats of the Forsaken, and has carefully worked to avoid such a fate herself. Nevertheless she suffered a huge defeat at Natrin's Barrow, yet amazingly survived it. Now she has suffered a worse defeat and is forgotten by all but her tormentor. RJ and BS kept her alive for a reason, and her storyline in ToM was unsatisfying. She may yet have more to do.

 

Cyndane is a possibility. By the end of ToM she seems very laid low indeed. She has also been one of the two major Forsaken villains for the whole series, and suffered an eight-book absence of plot relevance before her appearance in the epilogue of ToM. Her ambitions are certainly “tallest” of all the Forsaken, or of anyone else in the series for that matter. RJ stated decisively that she is an evil character, but she has always been presented in the story as a good character who got caught up in a moral morass. From a story standpoint, she is probably the best choice to be represented by Tower F8.

 

Aginor is unlikely. For one thing, he's currently dead for the second time. He was the second strongest of the male Forsaken, but he never posed much of a threat in the books except through the legacy of his monstrous creations. It wouldn't be very satisfying for him to come back to dominate the Forsaken now.

 

I feel comfortable ruling out Demandred, Moghedien, and Aginor. I also would rule out Mesaana, although I am less comfortable about that, and do so only because the remaining choices are so much more compelling.

 

Tall in What Way?

 

The height of the towers likely represents a threat or power of some kind, but what exactly? A threat to Rand? To Egwene? To Tar Valon? To the Light in general? To all the world? Are the Forsaken themselves somehow a part of the integrity of the seal on the Bore? Does the height of the towers represent the will of the Dark One being fulfilled, with events so far having played out according to his design and his victory closer than ever? I can think of a lot of possibilities, but ultimately it's just speculation on my part.

 

The Final Three:

 

Moridin, Graendal, and Cyndane all have a good story basis for rising up to become the most prominent, and all of them qualify on technical grounds unless I have missed something. I do think Cyndane has the edge. But before I offer my final opinion, I want to speculate on one more thing about the dream.

 

In Egwene's dream, the movement of the thirteen towers is accompanied by an earthquake. Afterward, that earthquake comes to a stop. To me, that suggests the silence before the storm. It could be that the significance of six towers remaining at the end of the earthquake is not that there are six Forsaken alive at the time of Egwene's dream, but that there are six Forsaken alive at the time Tarmon Gai'don begins. The exact start time of Tarmon Gai'don would be hard to pin down, given that we don't know exactly what Tarmon Gai'don entails, but it's a plausible possibility anyhow.

 

Moridin has been the “obvious” main Forsaken for the whole series, and Egwene's dream would not tell us much if Tower F8 referred to him. (It would tell her a lot, but not us.) Also, he seems to be becoming something more than a Forsaken. His bond with Rand suggests to me that he will be not a threat to the Light so much as a tool for victory by the Light—although that's just speculation, of course.

 

Graendal seems like a fruit that has gone overripe to the point of spoiling. Her best chance to rise up and dominate the Forsaken was in ToM. Instead she got decisively defeated. However, I would consider her more likely than Moridin, because she does get a mention in the Epilogue and she also got a second chance after Natrin's Barrow which hasn't been put to good use yet.

 

But it's Cyndane—Mierin Eronaile—who seems the likeliest of all. Could it really be that this last-minute twist on the eve of Armageddon is just a sad reprisal of her mad strike at the docks? Well, sure, it could be. Most of the Forsaken have suffered weak deaths. But that wouldn't fit with the story very well. The dark prophecies are still unfulfilled. RJ always had something special in mind for her and Ishydin. We're beginning to see how the Ishy story will play out, but hers is still a mystery. All we really know for the moment is that Rand thinks she is in great distress.

 

That's just my opinion, and a fair but of wishful thinking, but I do think this post has shown that the tallest tower in Egwene's dream is not necessarily a symbol for Moridin. In my mind the mystery is wide open, even though I have my favorite pick. Maybe the theorists around here can get a good discussion going.

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interesting analysis, i just assumed it meant Moridin, as it grew back as Moridin came back and rose tallest as Moridin is superior to the other forsaken we think. i dissagree with your opinion/wishfull thinking that it represents Cyndane, i think the special thing RJ had in stall for her is that she will defect to the lighside. i think the best candidate for the tallest tower besided Moridin is Demandred, whom you mentioned, for me the biggest mystery in this series is WTF did Demandred getting up to for the DO that he was so happy with? i think based on what we saw of Demandred at Shayoul Ghul (sp?) is LoC he is probably an equally likely contender for the tallest tower along with Moridin, especialloy also as he seems to think that he is the only one allowed to kill Rand, and Moridin backs him up on that, or at least lets him and the other forsaken in that meeting beleive that (if you remember the scene im talking about)

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For me Moridin is tooo simple. Its too obvious that he would be this T F8. He is currently the Nae'blis with everything going for him, it just seems kind of redundant to put it in Egwene's dream, I doubt RJ would put something that useless in a Dream (which have always been very important plot indicators), so while his death and such do constitute him being the T F8, its not something that needs to be put in Egwene's dream. At least, not put in onscreen. Because we already know that Moridin is currently top dog. Thus, the dream would be a complete waste of time for the reader and really to Egwene. What can she gain from knowing Moridin is top dog? Its like Egwene having a dream that says Rand is the Dragon. Its pointless.

 

I agree mostly with the original post analysis.

 

I would add Demandred in, just because we do not know what he has been doing. It could be that he had a bigg messup offscreen, and he redeems himself in AMOL. I only add Demandred because going by all Brandon's quotes about Demandred being the biggest player for the shadow. HIs idenity paying off big-time and Brandon stating that Demandred is his favorite forsaken behind Moridin (go to theoryland database and look under the Demandred heading for these quotes) it seems he is going to do something pretty big and awesome for the Shadow. However, i do tend to agree. It seems a bit off that we find Demandred nearly pulled down and rising back up all in the last book.

 

Graendal I am not keen on for this. As said above, her time has passed. ToM would have been the time for her to achieve this. Now she just pretty much failed big time. Even now, with her failure, I wouldnt say she has "almost crumbled". She has failed, certainly, but so did Mesaana, Moggy etc...

 

Besides, the "crumbling tower" bit seems to be referring to a big defeat. While Graendal has FAILED, she hasnt really been defeated. The Shadow is only punishing her for her failures. To me there is a difference between being almost defeated and failing leading to punishment.

 

Which leads me to my favored candidated. Lanfear. Cyndane itself means "last chance". To me its a big indicator. Last chance certainly seems like she has been nearly destroyed, yet given "one more chance". Lanfear certainly fits the defeated, but not totally dead category. She has lost power, looks, standing, she is mindtrapped.

 

That being established, lets look at her chance to rise above all the others. Just have a look at the Epilogue for ToM. The task of hurting Rand has been "given to another" (Shaidar Haran to Graendal) which is argueably the most important task the DO has for his followers. Then look what happens, Lanfear turns up in Rand's dreams evoking a troubled mix of emotions, including desire. The first time we see post- VOG Rand troubled in any way. One may say that Lanfear is actually turning back to the Light, or thinking of doing it, but to me it smells of a trap.

 

If so, Lanfear fits both fields. She has been pulled down to within an inch of total defeat, and now has a chance to succeed in the task the DO will reward the most.

 

My vote in order of likeliness is:

 

Lanfear

Demandred

Graendal

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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For me Moridin is tooo simple. Its too obvious that he would be this T F8. He is currently the Nae'blis with everything going for him, it just seems kind of redundant to put it in Egwene's dream, I doubt RJ would put something that useless in a Dream (which have always been very important plot indicators), so while his death and such do constitute him being the T F8, its not something that needs to be put in Egwene's dream. At least, not put in onscreen. Because we already know that Moridin is currently top dog. Thus, the dream would be a complete waste of time for the reader and really to Egwene. What can she gain from knowing Moridin is top dog? Its like Egwene having a dream that says Rand is the Dragon. Its pointless.

 

I agree mostly with the original post analysis.

 

I would add Demandred in, just because we do not know what he has been doing. It could be that he had a bigg messup offscreen, and he redeems himself in AMOL. I only add Demandred because going by all Brandon's quotes about Demandred being the biggest player for the shadow. HIs idenity paying off big-time and Brandon stating that Demandred is his favorite forsaken behind Moridin (go to theoryland database and look under the Demandred heading for these quotes) it seems he is going to do something pretty big and awesome for the Shadow. However, i do tend to agree. It seems a bit off that we find Demandred nearly pulled down and rising back up all in the last book.

 

Graendal I am not keen on for this. As said above, her time has passed. ToM would have been the time for her to achieve this. Now she just pretty much failed big time. Even now, with her failure, I wouldnt say she has "almost crumbled". She has failed, certainly, but so did Mesaana, Moggy etc...

 

Besides, the "crumbling tower" bit seems to be referring to a big defeat. While Graendal has FAILED, she hasnt really been defeated. The Shadow is only punishing her for her failures. To me there is a difference between being almost defeated and failing leading to punishment.

 

Which leads me to my favored candidated. Lanfear. Cyndane itself means "last chance". To me its a big indicator. Last chance certainly seems like she has been nearly destroyed, yet given "one more chance". Lanfear certainly fits the defeated, but not totally dead category. She has lost power, looks, standing, she is mindtrapped.

 

That being established, lets look at her chance to rise above all the others. Just have a look at the Epilogue for ToM. The task of hurting Rand has been "given to another" (Shaidar Haran to Graendal) which is argueably the most important task the DO has for his followers. Then look what happens, Lanfear turns up in Rand's dreams evoking a troubled mix of emotions, including desire. The first time we see post- VOG Rand troubled in any way. One may say that Lanfear is actually turning back to the Light, or thinking of doing it, but to me it smells of a trap.

 

If so, Lanfear fits both fields. She has been pulled down to within an inch of total defeat, and now has a chance to succeed in the task the DO will reward the most.

 

My vote in order of likeliness is:

 

Lanfear

Demandred

Graendal

 

 

Is it possible that Perrin Aybara can be turned to the shadow to save Faile!

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It is Ishamael. In all his incarnations and in his presence he far eclipses all the other Forsaken. He is the personification of a selfless villain who is committed to his lot out of conviction and belief. Cruelty being the hallmark of lesser men, it is telling that Ishamael never resorted to the excesses and petty cruelties of many of his fellow Forsaken. For him there is only one goal, the destruction of the pattern. As a highly intelligent philosopher tinged with nihilist and 18th century idealist beliefs the concept of eternal repetitive slavery detests him to the core. He holds such a strong conviction that he would rather channel the True Power than have to dip into the One Power which lies in sync with the pattern.

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Lot of interesting points in this post. I originally assumed it would be Ishy but now Lanfear is a close one for TF8 in my mind. Greandal is done I think and Moghy is not even worth notice in my mind. Demandred to my knowledge is still undefeated but he isnt and never will be the top dawg.

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I am curious, to all those who say "its obviously Moridin"

 

What was the point of that dream then?

 

Egwene can do nothing with it, she doesnt even know what it means, and even if she did, its useless information.

 

Plus, the reader already knows that Moridin is currently the highest.

 

So I ask, what then, if it is Moridin, was the point of that Dream? It is completely useless information. As I mentioned, its like Egwene having a Dream that Rand is the Dragon Reborn (in ToM).

 

In the Wheel of Time, nothing is useless information, especially not Dreams, which always give big hints for future events.

 

So tell me, those who think it is "sooooooo obvious", why was the Dream even mentioned?

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I think it means Graendal. She's been given most "air time" (although that is somewhat irrelevant). She got completely crushed in ToM. She will rise the highest in AMoL.

 

Why would Egwene dream of something that has already happened (Moridin raising the highest after his failure)? I don't think she would. Thus I think it means Graendal.

Edited by Ananta
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I am curious, to all those who say "its obviously Moridin"

 

What was the point of that dream then?

 

Egwene can do nothing with it, she doesnt even know what it means, and even if she did, its useless information.

 

Plus, the reader already knows that Moridin is currently the highest.

 

So I ask, what then, if it is Moridin, was the point of that Dream? It is completely useless information. As I mentioned, its like Egwene having a Dream that Rand is the Dragon Reborn (in ToM).

 

In the Wheel of Time, nothing is useless information, especially not Dreams, which always give big hints for future events.

 

So tell me, those who think it is "sooooooo obvious", why was the Dream even mentioned?

Why did she have a dream about rand and the breaking of the seals? thats the same sequence. She is a dreamer, just because we know something doesn't give her any reason to not dram of said things - we get shown some of her dreams where she gets info, although unintelligeble for her, so we know that she has gotten this information. half or more of the prophetic indications we have had have been useless for the person recieving it, and a lot of them have rehashed information we aldready had if we put our minds together. Also this dreammight have been given out of sequence for us because of the splitting of the book in three - originally planned to be shown earlier, before Natrims Hollow perhaps.

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Why did she have a dream about rand and the breaking of the seals? thats the same sequence. She is a dreamer, just because we know something doesn't give her any reason to not dram of said things - we get shown some of her dreams where she gets info, although unintelligeble for her, so we know that she has gotten this information. half or more of the prophetic indications we have had have been useless for the person recieving it, and a lot of them have rehashed information we aldready had if we put our minds together. Also this dreammight have been given out of sequence for us because of the splitting of the book in three - originally planned to be shown earlier, before Natrims Hollow perhaps.

She had that dream so she knows that Rand just going and destroying the seals will screw things up.

 

The dream could simply mean that Rand shouldn't break the seals alone.

 

 

 

Also, I highly doubt they'd show the dream at wrong time. They'd cut the whole thing if it was completely out of place.

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Consider Egwene's dream of the Gray Man after Mat in TDR37. Mat had already killed the Gray Man in TDR30, a week and a half earlier. Egwene's dreams might be oracular, most of the time, but they are not necessarily prophetic. I don't think there's time for another Forsaken to fall and then rise during AMOL, and there is insufficient evidence that the obvious interpretation is necessarily a wrong one here.

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Consider Egwene's dream of the Gray Man after Mat in TDR37. Mat had already killed the Gray Man in TDR30, a week and a half earlier. Egwene's dreams might be oracular, most of the time, but they are not necessarily prophetic. I don't think there's time for another Forsaken to fall and then rise during AMOL, and there is insufficient evidence that the obvious interpretation is necessarily a wrong one here.

 

 

well if thats the case then the dream was absolutely stupid and should never have been put in. I mean, come on, its pointless, and i will be disappointed if that is how it turns out to be.

 

Plus, remember Graendal, Moggy, Lanfear have all fallen. So they only need ot rise up in the last book. Nothing says

 

I don't think there's time for another Forsaken to fall and then rise during AMOL

 

So Lanfear, Graendal or Moggy could easily rise in the last book.

 

 

I mean, of course Moridin is the go-to answer, and thats what I originally thought aswell, but it just strikes me as stupid, as the whole dream sequence seemed to be important. The example you give is fair enough, but still, i just think it is a stupid dream.

 

 

To whoever was talking about the split in books being a reason, thats wrong. the dream occurs after the events of tGS. Egwene's pov here is fully up to date.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Since when are Egwene's dreams always useful to her? I can only think of a few that have been useful. She can rarely interpret them.

 

The point as I saw it was that it illustrated how many of the Chosen were left alive, and that one of them had risen above the others. This was a preamble to the following dream about Mesaana, which was the only one of the three that she was able to interpret.

 

Also, the crystal globe most likely had nothing to do with the seals. It fits the Aiel better.

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Something that always seems to go unnoticed because everyone usually focuses on the towers in the vision...what about the 23 stars in the sky above the sphere?

Edited by Finnssss
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If the sphere represents the Seals, then they're the full Hall of the Tower: twenty-one Sitters, the Keeper, and the Amyrlin, Watcher of the Seals. If it represents the Aiel, then they're the Council of Twenty-Two seen in Aviendha's vision in TOM49, plus one more: Rand, probably, but maybe Aviendha herself. Linda at the 13th Depository lists a third possibility that they might represent 23 nations or organizations who will fight for the Light in Tarmon Gai'don, which I think is kind of a contortion.

Edited by moratcorlm
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Very interesting analysis, Emu. My only concern with it being Lanfear is that the towers are compared to each other in a way that establishes a hierarchy. The tallest, it would seem to me, would be the leader: which, in this case, means Nae'blis. The problem here is that all living FS are accounted for; for the tallest tower *not* to be Ishamael, who has already been named Nae'blis, whichever of the towers represents him would have to have been the tallest and then either have shrunk or have been eclipsed by Lanfear's newly-elevated one. Moridin would pass off Nae'blis-hood to Cyndane, but given that six towers remain standing, he would remain alive during her 'reign', a relative equal to the other FS (insofar as he's under her.)

 

That scenario seems unlikely to me. Moridin is the True Believer of the lot, and I don't see how he could be displaced and remain effective. You could argue that of all the FS, Lanfear most closely matches the Dark One in character (ambition, willingness to betray, etc.,) but if she ends up being Rand's ideological opposite at the end of the series it changes the meaning and scope of the work entirely from how it's ordered right now: Rand thinks life, even with its many pains, is worth living - and reliving - while Ishamael is the ultimate nihilist. Lanfear representing some kind of gluttony or avarice, and using Rand's sympathies against him, seems a little less monumental to me (Rand is now equipped with a divine sense of satisfaction with life, which is necessary to oppose Ishamael's centuries of tortured philosophical pursuits; just about every character in the series would have the fortitude not to want *everything* as their own, which seems to be Lanfear's schtick.)

 

Of course, this is based on the assumption that the relative heights of the Forsaken's towers corresponds to their position in the Great Administration of the Dark. If the size of the towers represents each FS's actual potential to harm Rand, and therefore mess up the world, I could definitely see Lanfear as the biggest of the bunch.

 

Still, that's just my initial opinion. Really well done post, you may have caught onto Brandon sneaking something past us. :)

Edited by Swithin
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Interesting.

 

Ishamael has been portrayed throughout the series as the leader and he has the 'logical' reason for going over to the dark side of the force. The only Forsaken who has deciphered the reality of the DO winning. The rest of the Forsaken are petty and clueless in comparison, including Lanfear (spurned lover), Demandred (jealously) etc.

 

Some reasons why Lanfear would rise above Ishamael:

 

Lanfear delivers the DR to the DO - She seems to be setting up a nice little trap for him.

The DO uses Ishamael's body to fight the DR and needs another to play Nae'blis - But SH is here...

Ishamael betrays the DO - very unlikely due to his convictions, but who knows what effect, if any, Rand's Light is having on him.

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At the end of this I feel like quiting Freud;

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

Sometimes the obvious solution is also the correct one, and with all the convoluted theories, the most devious way to present something to the fandom is in clear words. Hmm I'm quoting / paraphrasing RJ now too. Freud and RJ in 4 lines..

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Ishamael betrays the DO - very unlikely due to his convictions, but who knows what effect, if any, Rand's Light is having on him.

 

 

Very much so. Since Ishamael is a dangerous wildcard, his motivations and goals are not simple such as the other Forsaken. They're deeply mired in philosophy and transcendent thinking.

 

The only thing we know is that Ishamael wishes the DO to be released, however that is not the equivalent to letting the DO rule as see fit. Ishamael follows a strict philosophy of wishing to see the wheel which binds the pattern in an infinite loop destroyed. It is probable that it is not the destruction of the pattern itself that he seeks, after all existence has a purpose when it is not held prisoner by a never ending repetition. With no wheel, the pattern cannot turn and hence can only progress in a linear fashion.

 

For all intents and purposes it is possible that Ishamael is gambling with the notion that he might be able to destroy or re-encase the DO once his personal goals of the liberation of the pattern are realized. His ranting as Ba'alzamon about having been a champion as well and his obsession about the Wheel tend to raise an eyebrow. Likewise Ishamael understands more about the nature of the DO than anyone else, so perhaps he feels arrogant in his wisdom. Also if he fails and the DO not only destroys the Wheel but also the pattern, well the notion of having at least attempted to break free of the Wheel justifies it for a nihilist philosopher such as Ishamael.

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Why do you assume Egwene's dreams are of future events? This dream seemed to be reflecting on the present, it is prophetic and she has no idea what it means, but doesnt mean it is a vision of things to come. Moridin imo.

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