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Joanna63

who is Mat?

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I also believe that Mat must be Aemon. However he has been blessed w not only his own past life knowledge, but all of the greatest hero's memories. I think this is an important fact to consider because I think that either Padan Fain or a Forsaken will blow the Horn of Valere in the final battle. This will then allow a Bad Ass confrontation between all the heroes of the horn to fight against Mat/Aemon and the Band of The Red Hand. Mat's knowledge of all of them mixed in with his bloodline's will to win and never surrender mentality will make Mat the Bloodiest Hero of all Time.

 

No one else can use the horn to summon the hero's as long as Mat lives.

It is nothing more than a plain horn to anyone else.

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I also believe that Mat must be Aemon. However he has been blessed w not only his own past life knowledge, but all of the greatest hero's memories. I think this is an important fact to consider because I think that either Padan Fain or a Forsaken will blow the Horn of Valere in the final battle. This will then allow a Bad Ass confrontation between all the heroes of the horn to fight against Mat/Aemon and the Band of The Red Hand. Mat's knowledge of all of them mixed in with his bloodline's will to win and never surrender mentality will make Mat the Bloodiest Hero of all Time.

 

1. Mat's memories are not those of the Heroes of the Horn, I don't know where you got that idea, just of various soldiers, generals & adventurers.

 

2. Mat is the Hornsounder, as long as he lives the Horn is just a horn to anybody else. i.e. No one else can call the Heroes.

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And the word "trumpeter", as I recall, appears at the beginning of a sentence. So he may actually have called him, "trumpeter", not "Trumpeter."

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Mat's memories were given to him from the Eelfinn; a number of them may be of past lives of his soul, but definitely not all of them since they overlap.

Mat may also be Aemon reborn; but up through Gathering Storm, that is unknown.

 

It seems certain that Mat is not the reborn of a Hero since Trumpeter seems to be a tittle.

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Mat's memories were given to him from the Eelfinn; a number of them may be of past lives of his soul, but definitely not all of them since they overlap.

Mat may also be Aemon reborn; but up through Gathering Storm, that is unknown.

 

It seems certain that Mat is not the reborn of a Hero since Trumpeter seems to be a tittle.

 

I used to believe that Mat was indeed Aemon reborn but after researching various Q&A's from RJ and BS and reading posts from others I have come to the conclusion that Mat is not Aemon reborn.

He is however, of Aemon's bloodline and a direct descendant.

Mat, right from the beginning had the blood of Manetheren flowing strong in him and that bloodline is further magnified and brought to the surface by the taint of the dagger.

After he is healed of the dagger, he has the memory of Aemon and is able to speak the old tongue fluently.

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His old tongue knowledge doesn't just come from Aemon, though. I remember Birgitte commenting on how one sentence he speaks like a man from Manetheren, and the next he's an Eharoni, down to his accent and idioms.

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His old tongue knowledge doesn't just come from Aemon, though. I remember Birgitte commenting on how one sentence he speaks like a man from Manetheren, and the next he's an Eharoni, down to his accent and idioms.

 

Not just from Aemon no, from all his Manetheren ancestors at first.

He was 100% fluent in the old tongue when he entered the doorway in Tear, long before his "holes were filled". So fluent in fact that he didn't miss a step in the slightest talking to the Aelfinn and didn't even know it till Rand mentioned that he had needed an interpreter.

After his holes were filled in Rhuidean by the Eelfinn is when he acquired all the accents and idioms.

Edited by Finnssss

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His old tongue knowledge doesn't just come from Aemon, though. I remember Birgitte commenting on how one sentence he speaks like a man from Manetheren, and the next he's an Eharoni, down to his accent and idioms.
Mat's fluency in the Old Tongue is another gift from the Eelfinn.

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His old tongue knowledge doesn't just come from Aemon, though. I remember Birgitte commenting on how one sentence he speaks like a man from Manetheren, and the next he's an Eharoni, down to his accent and idioms.
Mat's fluency in the Old Tongue is another gift from the Eelfinn.

 

 

No, it wasn't. The memories they gave him added the different accents and mannerisms but he was already fluent.

 

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this...Mat was 100% fluent in the old tongue when he stepped into the first doorway in Tear.

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100% fluent, that seems doubtful to me.

Old Blood seems the only reason for Mat to speak it in the first books.

Mat seemed to not understand what he was saying until he returned from the Eelfinn.

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100% fluent, that seems doubtful to me.

Old Blood seems the only reason for Mat to speak it in the first books.

Mat seemed to not understand what he was saying until he returned from the Eelfinn.

 

 

Go re-read Chpt 15 tSR.

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TSR, Ch. 2

 

“There,” Estean all but shouted. “You cannot deny it this time. That was the Old Tongue. Something about burning, and bones.” He grinned around the table. “My tutor would be proud. I ought to send him a gift. If I can find out where he went.”

 

Nobles were supposed to be able to speak the Old Tongue, though in reality few knew more than Estean seemed to. The young lords set to arguing over exactly what Mat had said. They seemed to think it had been a comment on the heat.

 

Goose bumps pebbled Mat’s skin as he tried to recall the words that had just come out of his mouth. A string of gibberish, yet it almost seemed he should understand.

It's clear that at this point he was far from 100% fluent in the Old Tongue at all times. This only a few days before he entered the doorway in Tear.

 

Also:

 

TSR, Ch. 34

 

Rand frowned at the Dragons on his forearms. He was not the only one to have been marked in some way in Rhuidean. Mat no longer spoke a few words of the Old Tongue now and then without knowing what he was saying. He understood, since Rhuidean, though he did not appear to realize it.

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I think Finnssss is referring to how Mat spoke to the Aelfinn without an interpreter. Of course he wasn't consciously aware that he was speaking the Old Tongue and he wasn't able to do it at will so I don't see him as being fluent, but he was close.

 

As for whether Mat is anyone reborn, well he is someone reborn as that's how the Wheel works but there is no reason to believe it is Aemon.

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That chapter does not prove 100% fluency.

Perhaps the Old Blood was enough for Mat to understand them.

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TSR, Ch. 2

 

“There,” Estean all but shouted. “You cannot deny it this time. That was the Old Tongue. Something about burning, and bones.” He grinned around the table. “My tutor would be proud. I ought to send him a gift. If I can find out where he went.”

 

Nobles were supposed to be able to speak the Old Tongue, though in reality few knew more than Estean seemed to. The young lords set to arguing over exactly what Mat had said. They seemed to think it had been a comment on the heat.

 

Goose bumps pebbled Mat’s skin as he tried to recall the words that had just come out of his mouth. A string of gibberish, yet it almost seemed he should understand.

It's clear that at this point he was far from 100% fluent in the Old Tongue at all times. This only a few days before he entered the doorway in Tear.

 

Also:

 

TSR, Ch. 34

 

Rand frowned at the Dragons on his forearms. He was not the only one to have been marked in some way in Rhuidean. Mat no longer spoke a few words of the Old Tongue now and then without knowing what he was saying. He understood, since Rhuidean, though he did not appear to realize it.

 

 

I understand what you're saying but the only difference was that after his holes were filled he was more consciously aware of it.

Previous to this he was 100% fluent if only sub-consciously unless you can explain why he was able to enter the doorway in Tear and converse with the Aelfinn so easily and with so little effort that he didn't even realise he was speaking the OT.

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From Brandon's Twitter about 2 weeks ago.....

 

Brandon- At the 35% mark we have Mat speaking the Old Tongue for the first time, books ahead of him getting memories stuck in his head.

 

Brandon- I've always found this a very curious event. Of the five Two Riversers, Mat's powers are the most subtly foreshadowed in the book.

 

Brandon- Unless you count the short exchange between Lan and Perrin about wolves in a much earlier chapter.

 

Krit Petty- I thought that Mat's Old Tongue was a small way of RJ letting you think maybe Mat was the important one, not Rand.

 

Brandon- Yes, I think you're right on that count. It was certainly meant to make us think.

 

Lee Davis- The speaking the Old Tongue is from his bloodline though, not his memories in that case, isn't it?

 

Brandon- Yes, but it's still foreshadowing. He's the one who does it, not the others.

 

sleepinghour- In TEotW, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

 

Terez- Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?

 

Felix- That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

 

Brandon- It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

 

Brandon- The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

 

sleepinghour- Without revealing names, did RJ's notes say whether any character besides Rand is the reincarnation of someone important?

 

Brandon- This is a difficult one to answer, as I think even an answer might give some people too much of a clue. I'll consider.

Edited by Finnssss

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If we're using skill in the old tongue as part of the reason Mat might be Aemon, in the same vein Aemon was married to an Aes Sedai, and yet Mat's words while being split from the dagger were anything but complimentary.

 

Of course, people do change (and he's 'married' to a potential channeler) so it's always possible. I'd just prefer him to be his own man. Next we'll hear Elayne IS Ilyena, Perrin is the first Werewolf, Egwene is my mother-in-law and Lan is Chuck Norris.

 

I just hope he's good old Mat Cauthon who happens to be bloody awesome.

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Like I said before, Mat could be Aemon's soul reborn but at this point I'm only convinced that he is definitely of his blood line.

Funny though that Rand was born on the slopes of Dragonmount where LTT died and Mat was born in Emond's field or as it was known long ago as Aemon's field, the site of Aemon's last stand against the shadow....very, very interesting.

 

If we're using skill in the old tongue as part of the reason Mat might be Aemon, in the same vein Aemon was married to an Aes Sedai, and yet Mat's words while being split from the dagger were anything but complimentary.

 

Of course, people do change (and he's 'married' to a potential channeler) so it's always possible. I'd just prefer him to be his own man. Next we'll hear Elayne IS Ilyena, Perrin is the first Werewolf, Egwene is my mother-in-law and Lan is Chuck Norris.

 

I just hope he's good old Mat Cauthon who happens to be bloody awesome.

 

You forget that Manetheren was betrayed by the Aes Sedai, by the Amyrlin Seat herself, Tetsuan out of jealousy of Aemon's wife and Queen.

Edited by Finnssss

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Mat's memories were given to him from the Eelfinn; a number of them may be of past lives of his soul, but definitely not all of them since they overlap.

Mat may also be Aemon reborn; but up through Gathering Storm, that is unknown.

 

It seems certain that Mat is not the reborn of a Hero since Trumpeter seems to be a tittle.

 

 

Logically I don't buy this last statement. If I was the pattern and I had a whole bunch of heroes to spin out and be useful from time to time, when would I need them the most? I'd need them leading up to and during the Last Battle.

 

So logically, many of our favourite (or despised) characters could actually be HotH. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say all of the Two Rivers crew, Elayne and her brothers (I suspect Gawyn might actually achieve something in AMOL), Moiraine, Lan, Thom... maybe others.

 

As for why Hawkwing didn't greet Mat and Perrin personally, but did greet Rand: Who can say? Who knows what the Heroes get up to in T'A'R while they're waiting to be spun out. They don't necessarily all hang out together; everyone over to Rogosh's place for beers and barbecue. Maybe they didn't recognise Mat and Perrin in their current incarnations. Maybe HW was just being poetic when he called Mat 'Trumpeter'.

 

Mat's life has been just too epic for him not to be a HotH after this incarnation, but I suspect he was a HotH in previous lives as well.

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They're all a mish-mash. But Mat has the foretelling of losing an eye, having been hanged from the Tree of Life for knowledge, the ravens and Thought and Memory, the spear... there's a lot of Odin in him, even if the personality's different.

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They're all a mish-mash. But Mat has the foretelling of losing an eye, having been hanged from the Tree of Life for knowledge, the ravens and Thought and Memory, the spear... there's a lot of Odin in him, even if the personality's different.

 

From a Q&A with RJ:

 

Question: Did you draw on folklore and mythologies for your books? Specifically, Mat as a parallel to Odin, with his spear that has Thought and Memory on it (Odin's raven's) and the distinct possibility that he's gonna lose an eye sometime soon?

 

RJ: I've tried to reverse engineer myths and legends as if this was a game of whispers. By the time the whispers travels around the room it changes. The legends of the world today are what the last child said. I'm trying to remember what was on the original paper. Yes, Odin, yes Rand has Arthur in him. But the stories have changed so the legends are ultimately not at all alike.

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I understand what you're saying but the only difference was that after his holes were filled he was more consciously aware of it.

Previous to this he was 100% fluent if only sub-consciously unless you can explain why he was able to enter the doorway in Tear and converse with the Aelfinn so easily and with so little effort that he didn't even realise he was speaking the OT.

Maybe Aelfinn's dialect is similar to the dialect spoken from Old Blood.

Unless the Old Blood makes a person 100% fluent in the Old Tongue, I would still doubt 100% fluency when he entered the doorway.

 

Logically I don't buy this last statement. If I was the pattern and I had a whole bunch of heroes to spin out and be useful from time to time, when would I need them the most? I'd need them leading up to and during the Last Battle.So logically, many of our favourite (or despised) characters could actually be HotH. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say all of the Two Rivers crew, Elayne and her brothers (I suspect Gawyn might actually achieve something in AMOL), Moiraine, Lan, Thom... maybe others.As for why Hawkwing didn't greet Mat and Perrin personally, but did greet Rand: Who can say? Who knows what the Heroes get up to in T'A'R while they're waiting to be spun out. They don't necessarily all hang out together; everyone over to Rogosh's place for beers and barbecue. Maybe they didn't recognise Mat and Perrin in their current incarnations. Maybe HW was just being poetic when he called Mat 'Trumpeter'. Mat's life has been just too epic for him not to be a HotH after this incarnation, but I suspect he was a HotH in previous lives as well.
Had he been a Hero, I imagine that he would be addressed by that Hero's name. Same with Perrin. I imagine Heroes would immediately recognize another Hero when the Horn calls them; Heroes in Telaranrhiod are able to track others that know of being in Telaranrhiod (likely including other Heroes).

And there has not yet been proof of any of the others being Heroes reborn.

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I understand what you're saying but the only difference was that after his holes were filled he was more consciously aware of it.

Previous to this he was 100% fluent if only sub-consciously unless you can explain why he was able to enter the doorway in Tear and converse with the Aelfinn so easily and with so little effort that he didn't even realise he was speaking the OT.

Maybe Aelfinn's dialect is similar to the dialect spoken from Old Blood.

Unless the Old Blood makes a person 100% fluent in the Old Tongue, I would still doubt 100% fluency when he entered the doorway.

 

Dude....seriously, think about it.

He walked in and was fluent to such a degree that he never even missed a beat and didn't even realise he wasn't talking in common.

 

Also what part of the bolded part in the Q&A I posted did you not understand?

 

Lee Davis- The speaking the Old Tongue is from his bloodline though, not his memories in that case, isn't it?

 

Brandon- Yes, but it's still foreshadowing. He's the one who does it, not the others.

 

I believe that the taint from the dagger amplified his knowledge and link to his bloodline but that is only my theory and is of course debatable.

He could just have the OT in him from his bloodline alone, we simply don't know for sure yet but BS confirms at least this much.

 

Either way though, it is more than plainly evident he is able to fully understand and converse in the OT so comfortably and smoothly that he doesn't even know the difference long before his "holes are filled".

 

The whole point of this argument is that it was stated that his OT was a gift from the snakes and/or foxes and that is quite simply not the case period.

Edited by Finnssss

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Had he been a Hero, I imagine that he would be addressed by that Hero's name. Same with Perrin. I imagine Heroes would immediately recognize another Hero when the Horn calls them; Heroes in Telaranrhiod are able to track others that know of being in Telaranrhiod (likely including other Heroes).

And there has not yet been proof of any of the others being Heroes reborn.

 

 

You're no doubt right that Heroes would recognize Mat and Perrin if they're also Heroes. I'll admit that.

 

 

But that leaves you and I with a clash of views:

 

 

My assumptions are:

 

- Living HotH act in the interests of the continuation of the pattern. We know that ta'averen do, so it's not that wild an assumption.

 

- The pattern would have a great need for living HotH around the time of the Last Battle, and so would spin them out. I have no evidence for this, but I don't think its a huge intuitive leap.

 

- Living HotH will usually do heaps of cool, heroic stuff in their lives and end up famous.

 

And I've concluded that the people doing cool, heroic stuff around this time in Randland could well be living HotH (If I were the pattern I'd spin out about a dozen). I think the cooler and more heroic they've been, the more likely it is that they're a HotH. Which means that Mat can't possibly not be one!

 

 

You're assumptions are:

 

- HotH recognise their fellow HotH, even if they've never seen their new incarnation. There is evidence to support this as the Heroes at Falme recognise Rand.

 

- Hawkwing would have referred to Mat and Perrin by name, or something other than 'Trumpeter' & 'Bannerman'. (The scene at Falme is the only evidence of the way Artur Hawkwing talks to people.)

 

You've concluded that Mat and Perrin cannot be HotH. Reasonable, but I disagree. I think that there's no reason why Hawkwing must refer to the boys by name. I think my argument above is more compelling than the peculiarities of Hawkwing's speech, so that's why I think Mat is a HotH.

 

 

 

 

As for whether Mat is Aemon reborn.. he could be. I don't think we'll ever find out unless Mat dies and goes to T'A'R heaven to remember his past lives (which I hear he won't).

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