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TGH: Why Ishamael wanted to give Nynaeve and Egwene to Seanchan?


Khosann
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Now we know that Ishamael says that Nynaeve and Egwene will help Rand in a very important way in future. Therefore they are to be given to Seanchan as damane.

 

Now how they would help Rand in future?

 

I have 2 theories: 1) Nynaeve helps Rand to cleanse saidin. 2) Nynaeve and Egwene help Rand to use Callandor safely to reseal the bore. What is your take on this?

 

And what about Elayne and Min? I mean it is obvious that Shadow knows prophecies of the dragon, then he should know that Elayne and Min will help Rand too. Why simply dispose them (kill them maybe)? Why not give Elayne as damane too? What are the Shadow's plans regarding Elayne, daughter heir of Andor and Min? Simply kill them or something more insidious?

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Pretty sure Moridin isn't aware of Min and Elayne at this point. He's aware of Egwene and Nynaeve due to the BA. Remember Suian didn't include Elayne in the hunt for the BA. This is why she isn't specifically targeted like Egwene and Nynaeve are. As for a specific reason why Moridin wanted them to be collared and taken back to Seanchan...I think it's as simple as not wanting Rand to have any friends/loved ones around him etc.

Edited by gambril
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What information Ishamael has access to isn't always clear. Thinking Nynaeve has been collared is a good example; Suroth and Liandrin could have told him otherwise. Elayne would most likely have died had she not chosen to come along. It's quite possible the Shadow did not know about Min at the time.

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And what about Elayne and Min? I mean it is obvious that Shadow knows prophecies of the dragon, then he should know that Elayne and Min will help Rand too.

I don't think either of those two is mentioned in the Prophesies of the Dragon. At least from the bits we've seen of them. And Rand read the whole Karaethon cycle in Tear and never though something like "Wow, I am fated to have 3 girlfriends at once". ;)

 

As I understand it, Elayne and Min were supposed to be killed if they had stayed in the Tower because they saw Liandrin talking to Egwene and Nynaeve before they left the Tower. The BA wanted to cover their tracks.

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What information Ishamael has access to isn't always clear. Thinking Nynaeve has been collared is a good example; Suroth and Liandrin could have told him otherwise. Elayne would most likely have died had she not chosen to come along. It's quite possible the Shadow did not know about Min at the time.

 

So you don't think Verin reported to Moridin, whom is the creator of the Black Ajah, about the hunt for the Black Ajah? Ok.

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What information Ishamael has access to isn't always clear. Thinking Nynaeve has been collared is a good example; Suroth and Liandrin could have told him otherwise. Elayne would most likely have died had she not chosen to come along. It's quite possible the Shadow did not know about Min at the time.

 

So you don't think Verin reported to Moridin, whom is the creator of the Black Ajah, about the hunt for the Black Ajah? Ok.

Is everyone here ignoring the fact this thread was started with TGH at the beginning. It would imply that the person who created the thread has only read the first 2 books, and how many spoilers were just given away because no one bothered to ask them how much information they wanted to discuss from future books.

 

Both moratcorlm and David Selig were responsible in how they answered, and their posts did not reveal anything. Others were very inconsiderate in their postings. When was Moridin mentioned in TGH? InTGH, why would Verin tell him anything? For that matter the poster did not ask about Moridin, the question was about Ishamael. There has not been a hunt for BA in TGH, so what could a BA hunt have to do with sending those 2 to the Seanchan?

 

Some people just can't be bothered to take the time to be considerate of others.

 

But back on the subject of Ishamael and the girls. moratcorlm was essentially right. We are never sure what info Ishy has at his disposal at any given time. And the eventual reasons of why those 2 girls from the same village as Rand are important, will become clear as the series goes on. Lilandrin makes a comment about having "made arrangements to have Elayne taken care of" when she sees her with the other 2 girls, so it is easy to deduce that had Elayne not went to Falme, she would have been killed. Doubtful the Shadow or Ishy know anything about Min at this point, other than possibly rumors of a girl with her ability somewhere in the west of Andor, but it is doubtful that they would know that the girl from the rumors is Min.

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I personally doubt Ishamael could have foreseen what Nyn and Egwene did in later books. My personal take on why they were to be put out of the way is two-fold:

 

1) to remove dear friends from the presence of the Dragon so they could begin isolating and working on him.

2) to make them into weapons that would oppose him; this goes beyond just making them damane. I will not go further than this. Those who have read far enough into the series should know what and whom I speak of. Those who have not, well, RAFO. ;)

 

Imagine you are Rand and the girl you always thought you would marry (because he and Egwene are still "together") and the woman who as Wisdom had proved, temper or no, she cared for you and what happened to you are not only gone, but now are weapons in the hand of your enemies.

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What information Ishamael has access to isn't always clear. Thinking Nynaeve has been collared is a good example; Suroth and Liandrin could have told him otherwise. Elayne would most likely have died had she not chosen to come along. It's quite possible the Shadow did not know about Min at the time.

 

So you don't think Verin reported to Moridin, whom is the creator of the Black Ajah, about the hunt for the Black Ajah? Ok.

And the eventual reasons of why those 2 girls from the same village as Rand are important, will become clear as the series goes on. Lilandrin makes a comment about having "made arrangements to have Elayne taken care of" when she sees her with the other 2 girls, so it is easy to deduce that had Elayne not went to Falme, she would have been killed. Doubtful the Shadow or Ishy know anything about Min at this point, other than possibly rumors of a girl with her ability somewhere in the west of Andor, but it is doubtful that they would know that the girl from the rumors is Min.

 

 

First of all let me thank you all for your considered responses. And thanks for clarifying what Liandrin meant when she said Elayne is to be disposed of.

 

But Actually I am rereading the series. Though it has been 5 years since I read KOD and 7 years since I read the first 4 books --excluding Sanderson books. So I forgot most of the plot.

 

And for my part I always thought that the Shadow wanted to make girls damane because somehow he knew, Ishamael knew that they would help Rand to use Callandor and to cleanse the Saidin (even if these events were not mentioned in the prophecies maybe Ishy knew this from Dark Prophecies). But since I forgot the plot I don't know for sure and cannot speculate further.

 

 

So what do you think? Did Ishy wanted them become damane because they would help Rand to use Callandor in AMOL or in order to prevent Nynaeve helping Rand to cleanse Saidin and Egwene becoming Amyrlin? Aside from simply hurting Rand through his friends? Is there any indication in the other books to show what were the Ishy's reasons for wanting to get rid of Nynaeve and Egwene in TGH? It seems you believe in the second reason.

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What information Ishamael has access to isn't always clear. Thinking Nynaeve has been collared is a good example; Suroth and Liandrin could have told him otherwise. Elayne would most likely have died had she not chosen to come along. It's quite possible the Shadow did not know about Min at the time.

 

So you don't think Verin reported to Moridin, whom is the creator of the Black Ajah, about the hunt for the Black Ajah? Ok.

Is everyone here ignoring the fact this thread was started with TGH at the beginning. It would imply that the person who created the thread has only read the first 2 books, and how many spoilers were just given away because no one bothered to ask them how much information they wanted to discuss from future books.

 

Both moratcorlm and David Selig were responsible in how they answered, and their posts did not reveal anything. Others were very inconsiderate in their postings. When was Moridin mentioned in TGH? InTGH, why would Verin tell him anything? For that matter the poster did not ask about Moridin, the question was about Ishamael. There has not been a hunt for BA in TGH, so what could a BA hunt have to do with sending those 2 to the Seanchan?

 

Some people just can't be bothered to take the time to be considerate of others.

 

But back on the subject of Ishamael and the girls. moratcorlm was essentially right. We are never sure what info Ishy has at his disposal at any given time. And the eventual reasons of why those 2 girls from the same village as Rand are important, will become clear as the series goes on. Lilandrin makes a comment about having "made arrangements to have Elayne taken care of" when she sees her with the other 2 girls, so it is easy to deduce that had Elayne not went to Falme, she would have been killed. Doubtful the Shadow or Ishy know anything about Min at this point, other than possibly rumors of a girl with her ability somewhere in the west of Andor, but it is doubtful that they would know that the girl from the rumors is Min.

 

You're right and I apologize. I said too much in my second post. I was aware of this in my first post and did mistakenly use the wrong name for Ishmyael (because I have trouble spelling his name correcly lol ><)

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So what do you think? Did Ishy wanted them become damane because they would help Rand to use Callandor in AMOL or in order to prevent Nynaeve helping Rand to cleanse Saidin and Egwene becoming Amyrlin? Aside from simply hurting Rand through his friends? Is there any indication in the other books to show what were the Ishy's reasons for wanting to get rid of Nynaeve and Egwene in TGH? It seems you believe in the second reason.
Honestly I don't believe there's anything in the series to date that indicates what his reasons may have been. If you've read the later books, you know that he has access to certain sources of information, but he hasn't shared them with us any more than he's deigned to share them with the other Forsaken. Egwene and Nynaeve have numerous run-ins with the Forsaken in the series, and none of them seem to view her as more significant than, say, Romanda does.
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I personally doubt Ishamael could have foreseen what Nyn and Egwene did in later books.

 

We see in Fain's cell in tGH that the Shadow have their own prophecies so it is possible he has some info on Nynaeve and Egwene from these

 

I say that because Egwene and Nynaeve have no defined role at this point - meaning, they are not ta'veren, or prophesied in any recognizable form in the Karaethon Cycle, etc. You could be right. I just hold to my opinion that while Ishamael did in fact know who they were, his actions weren't from any prophecy, but simply to isolate and hurt the Dragon Reborn and make it easier to fight him.

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I say that because Egwene and Nynaeve have no defined role at this point - meaning, they are not ta'veren, or prophesied in any recognizable form in the Karaethon Cycle, etc. You could be right. I just hold to my opinion that while Ishamael did in fact know who they were, his actions weren't from any prophecy, but simply to isolate and hurt the Dragon Reborn and make it easier to fight him.

 

 

 

This was always my thinking...simply remove 2 possible allies of the Dragon Reborn. Being friends from home makes them viable targets.

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So what do you think? Did Ishy wanted them become damane because they would help Rand to use Callandor in AMOL or in order to prevent Nynaeve helping Rand to cleanse Saidin and Egwene becoming Amyrlin? Aside from simply hurting Rand through his friends? Is there any indication in the other books to show what were the Ishy's reasons for wanting to get rid of Nynaeve and Egwene in TGH? It seems you believe in the second reason.
Honestly I don't believe there's anything in the series to date that indicates what his reasons may have been. If you've read the later books, you know that he has access to certain sources of information, but he hasn't shared them with us any more than he's deigned to share them with the other Forsaken. Egwene and Nynaeve have numerous run-ins with the Forsaken in the series, and none of them seem to view her as more significant than, say, Romanda does.

 

Nice to see that it's not just the good guys that have poor comminication skills.

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