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Darkenmal

I'm still pretty damn sure that Taim is Demandred.

What do you think?  

110 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Demandred Mazrim Taim?

    • By god.. this guy's onto something!
    • Maybe.
    • RJ never lied. He was a god among mortal men.
    • N.O.
    • Y.E.S.
    • A bowl of cereal.
    • A Wizard Did it.
    • Neutral.


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There is a sh!tload of evidence to support this theory!

 

Re-reading the wheel of time series, I found some things to be a little too obvious.

 

1. "The south had Demandred's markings all over them"

 

2. Taim was VERY angry over being number two to Rand. (When given the pin for Asha'aman)

 

3. Demandred was always just a little less then Lews Therin Telamon in the Age of Legends, which was why he went over to the shadow (jerk).

 

4. Why am I telling you this? Because Taim is a little less in the Power then Rand (80% sure of this), (before book 7) and was mentioned to being "very near to the same height as Rand" But, he was a little smaller in height.

 

Didn't Demandred go to the Shadow because of envy? Because he was a little bit less of a hero then Lews Therin?

 

So many clues that I'm surprised the gang with the mystery machine haven't seen the glowing in the dark footprints already.

 

draft_lens7854621module66350271photo_1257181488Ghost_of_Captain_Culter_Scooby_Doo.jpg

 

Oh wait, they have.

 

5. Rand is a Aiel, but born a Andorman. It is repeatedly mentioned that he is a lot taller then most people, and very few people from anywhere but the Wastes are anywhere close to his height.

 

6. Taim is a little bit less smaller then Height then Rand, (I already told you this) but because Rand is a Aiel, and because Taim is only a little less in height to him, doesn't that make you suspicious?

 

7. It's not like Authors haven't lied before. On her page with rumours for the Deathly Hallows, J.K. Rowling was asked if R.A.B. was Regulus Arcturus Black (Or some stuff like that) and she flat out denied it. I can't find it on her page anymore, but it was there.. and I was pretty angry when I read it in the book.

 

8. Taim is now peforming 13x13 on his "students" to make them into evil channelers. Logain is also missing, who was/is Rand's most vocal supporter in the Black Tower.

 

9. During Rand's epic battle, Muradon (Pretty sure) An Asha'aman reported a man chanelling, which narrows that list down to.. Taim, Demandred or Moridin (Which I find VERY unlikely).

mind-blown.jpg

 

That leaves three choices. Taim is Black Ajah, Demandred is Taim, Or Demandred killed or captured Taim and is impersonating him.

 

10. Oh ya, there is also a Dreamspike on the Black Tower, which Moridin said was given to "someone else". (I need the quote.)

 

11. I'm sure is there a lot more, but you guys get the point. Taim is probably Demandred, and RJ lied only because he didn't want to spoil the whole series for us way in advance. (Makes sense.)

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I think originally Robert Jordan was planning on having Taim = Demandred.

But RJ made it too obvious and everyone saw right through it too quickly.

 

So just to try to make a twist, RJ then had to come up with a way for Taim to be somebody else (or just really Taim) and Demandred to be doing something else entirely.

 

There were too many reasons when Taim was first introduced to indicate that he is one of the Forsaken.

 

I think that this is one that RJ didn't really plan out that great and then got stuck with what was already published.

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In before Taim is Moridin.

 

1. "The south had Demandred's markings all over them"

 

You left out the other part of the quote, the bit about using proxies. If anything that suggests Demandred is having someone else act for him. There were also numerous other things occuring in the South at the time.

 

2. Taim was VERY angry over being number two to Rand. (When given the pin for Asha'aman)

 

3. Demandred was always just a little less then Lews Therin Telamon in the Age of Legends, which was why he went over to the shadow (jerk).

 

4. Why am I telling you this? Because Taim is a little less in the Power then Rand (80% sure of this), (before book 7) and was mentioned to being "very near to the same height as Rand" But, he was a little smaller in height.

 

Didn't Demandred go to the Shadow because of envy? Because he was a little bit less of a hero then Lews Therin?

 

A lot of your evidence mounts up to Taim was number 2 and Demandred was number 2 so Taim must be Demandred. Aside from the logical flaws in that reasoning have you considered the alternate explanation that with the emphasis on wheels and cycles and so on RJ created a scenario where Rand was in a similar position to LTT was, and as such gave him Taim as the number 2 just behind him in most things where LTT had Demandred in that role.

 

5. Rand is a Aiel, but born a Andorman. It is repeatedly mentioned that he is a lot taller then most people, and very few people from anywhere but the Wastes are anywhere close to his height.

 

6. Taim is a little bit less smaller then Height then Rand, (I already told you this) but because Rand is a Aiel, and because Taim is only a little less in height to him, doesn't that make you suspicious?

 

This is actually one point. Again as above.

 

7. It's not like Authors haven't lied before. On her page with rumours for the Deathly Hallows, J.K. Rowling was asked if R.A.B. was Regulus Arcturus Black (Or some stuff like that) and she flat out denied it. I can't find it on her page anymore, but it was there.. and I was pretty angry when I read it in the book.

 

Feel free to cite some examples of RJ lying in this manner.

 

8. Taim is now peforming 13x13 on his "students" to make them into evil channelers. Logain is also missing, who was/is Rand's most vocal supporter in the Black Tower.

 

Is he? Cool. Could you prove that? Because people over in the Black Tower thread aren't sure that's what it is. Maybe you've got some evidence the rest of us haven't read since nobody else has any confirmation on what is actually happening at the Black Tower.

 

9. During Rand's epic battle, Muradon (Pretty sure) An Asha'aman reported a man chanelling, which narrows that list down to.. Taim, Demandred or Moridin (Which I find VERY unlikely).

 

It seems highly unlikely that Taim, Moridin and Demandred are the only 3 male channelers on the dark side in the world. You yourself just mentioned men at the Black Tower being turned. Could it have been one of them? Or something else (lots of speculation about the men the Aiel send into the Blight for example), or just another male channeler Darkfriend, like Kisman.

 

10. Oh ya, there is also a Dreamspike on the Black Tower, which Moridin said was given to "someone else". (I need the quote.)

 

I believe Moridin said he was using it elsewhere, indicating Moridin's involvement in the BT. Although I don't have the book handy to look it up right now.

Edited by Kahlika

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Hi all, first time poster, long time reader.

 

To the OP, sorry but I don't find any of those points compelling enough evidence to follow that reasoning. Coupled with RJ's statement (who's credibility I am not going to compare to a writer of children's novels), I don't buy it.

 

As to this point:

9. During Rand's epic battle, Muradon (Pretty sure) An Asha'aman reported a man chanelling, which narrows that list down to.. Taim, Demandred or Moridin (Which I find VERY unlikely).

 

Narrows the list down to 3? At the battle for Maradon Deepe said: "They have channelers my Lord Ituralde" "I suspect six, perhaps more. Men, since I can feel the power they're wielding, doing something powerful".

 

Clearly the DO has more than 3 men channelers at his disposal and I doubt Demandred or Moridin would put themselves on the front lines unless/until absolutely necessary.

Edited by Seeker

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Hi,

 

Thanks for bringing up the topic. Was plannining to do so for a long time.

When Taim originally came to Camelyn, he was a middle-aged man and Rand wanted to know how he kept madness away for solong?

Taim had declared himself the Dragon only in the pevious year. He was almost near in power to Rand. So you think he was hiding himself for all those years?

He was obviously Demandred just released from the bore and claiming to be the Dragon. No other forsaken will make that claim. It was always the grudge of Demandred that he could not be the Dragon. If Taim is not him who indeed is Demandred?

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Even discounting the repeated denials from Jordan and Sanderson in interviews, there's more than enough evidence in the books that Taim is not Demandred.

 

1)Demandred didn't recognise Flinn during the battle at the end of WH. Flinn is not just an Asha'man, he's the first one Taim tested, one of the fastest learners and one of those few Rand had with him and trusted them. It's really unlikely that Taim would just forget the face of Flinn.

 

2)Not only that, but Demandred was really surprised that such an old looking man can channel. This makes sense for a Forsaken, used to the fact that all channellers were discovered early in the Age of Legends and started slowing, so they never looked old. But in the Black Tower many of the Asha'man were already quite old when they started channelling, so Taim must've long gotten used to old looking guys being able to channel.

 

3)The Dark One wanted to keep Rand alive between LoC and the end of the PoD. So it doesn't make sense to put Demandred, the guy with a pathological hatred for LTT, including his current reincarnation, close to him and under his command. The risk of losing his head and attacking Rand before the Dark One orders it is too big. Putting a proxy there makes much more sense.

Edited by David Selig

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When Taim originally came to Camelyn, he was a middle-aged man and Rand wanted to know how he kept madness away for solong?
Taim is in his late twenties. Rand overestimated his age because he looked older due to the rigours of his journey. So he hasn't been channeling all that long. Taimandred is impossible. And RJ and BS have both said that we haven't yet met Demandred's alter ego (as of KoD). I'd say him being Roedran of Murandy, or otherwise involved in Murandy, is a distinct possibility.

 

Then DO explain why Demandred doesn't recognize Flinn? If Taim can recognize Flinn, why can't Demandred? Because Taim is NOT Demandred.

 

I'll let someone else smash up the theory further. Preferably Mr Ares.

It's possible to smash this theory up any further? No, the theory I will take exception to here is this one: "I think originally Robert Jordan was planning on having Taim = Demandred. But RJ made it too obvious and everyone saw right through it too quickly." I find this theory utterly absurd. For one thing, we have seen throughout that RJ did an awful lot of planning, and it seems most out of character for him to screw up all this planning on a whim, childishly, because we happened to have seen through it. The internet fandom is only a small part of fandom as a whole, and most readers will thus have to manage without a community of thousands offering their views - that's the reason we pick up on so much. Absent that, most people will not be as knowledgeable about the series, and so some will pick up on clues for a given mystery, but many won't. And if you offer clues, you run the risk of people discovering it, and there have been many mysteries with more supporting evidence. Essentially, this is an arrogant view that a mere handful of fans were so influential in RJ's mind, that when they happened to stumble across something he wanted to be a big reveal, rather than him just shrugging and thinking that some people were sure to pick up on it, that he tosses out years of planning to include a new character, new plotlines, all in a fit of childish pique. And there is no evidence for any of this. I find this theory to be a wholly unnecessary slur on RJ's character.

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I think originally Robert Jordan was planning on having Taim = Demandred.

But RJ made it too obvious and everyone saw right through it too quickly.

 

So just to try to make a twist, RJ then had to come up with a way for Taim to be somebody else (or just really Taim) and Demandred to be doing something else entirely.

 

There were too many reasons when Taim was first introduced to indicate that he is one of the Forsaken.

 

I think that this is one that RJ didn't really plan out that great and then got stuck with what was already published.

 

^ This. The fact that Taim and Demandred were both introduced to the viewer in the same book (I think), plus all the similarities in their mannerisms, plus other hints here or there (Like Bashere not recognizing him entirely) make me strongly believe that originally Demandred was Taim. But RJ made it too obvious and so many of the fans picked up on it immediately (contrast with 'Who Killed Asmodean' from the previous book). So at some point I think he decided to just change it around to mess with the readers who were so dead-set-certain on it.

 

So while I think the original plan was for Taim to be Demandred, I don't think this is the case now. Part of me thinks that somehow Demandred is going to survive the last battle and everything and go on to be the Fourth Age's face of evil, the same way Baalzamon was for the Third Age.

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I stated this is another thread, but I'll say it again here and move on.

 

I believe Taim is just Demandrads Lieutenent and always has been. He's just a Dreadlord for the Shadow and always has been.

 

Everything I say here comes from a poster named Doma on wheel of time messageboard, whom is one of the best posters of any WOT board I've seen btw.

 

Basically he says and I agree with him 100% that: Taim is just a Drealord (already said)

 

Evidnce for Taim being Demandrads man is leaked in TOM in our scenes at the Black Tower. Remember the guys that are way too advanced that come to the Black Tower that Androl notices in his thoughts? These are simply other dreadlords that have been given to Taim by Demandrad now that the end game has started and the Shadow is starting to play all its pieces on the board. The time for Darkfriends to be hiding in the Shadows has ended. Demandrad is moving his pieces in place before his opening strike.

 

Basically, what Doma said and what we will come to find out is Taim was only given enough Dreadlords at the BT for security and to escape notice. The rest were sent via gateway to the Blight and forcibly turned via 13x13 to the Shadow or wherever Demandrads/Moridin's headquarters are for the Shadow Training Facility (red-veiled anyone?). Remember, the way the BT recruited via gateways and such they should have way more people there than they currently do. The WT got 1k apprentices just traveling through Murandy lol.

 

This is also why Demandrad and the Dark One are laughing at the end of Lord of Chaos. Rand by openly declaring men untouchable and openly recruiting them to the BT gave Demandrad the perfect opportunity to use Taim to openly recruit men for his forces

 

The Black Tower is Demandrads planned headquarters in the South. Moridin's headquarters is in the Blight. This is why the Dreamspike is there. Moridin told us that Demandrad was given the other Dreamspike and the Dreamspike is at the Black Tower, so this should be pretty obvious. We also know from Perrin's POV's in TOM that the Dreamspike can cover more ground than it is currently covering in TOM at the BT. Once the BT is secure, Demandrad will arive and extend the Dreamspike to cover Caemlyn - it's only 5 miles away. This time is very close, it's basically the next scene after the attack on Caemlyn in TOM epilogue. Once Demandrad secures Caemlyn and extends the Dreamspike, the Light is screwed and Caemlyn is lost.

 

People have expressed disapointment in the lack of Demandrad accomplisments thusfar but....in reality his opening blows at the end of TOM/into AMOL will morph all the accomplishments of all the previous Forsaken before him. In one opening move, he will have moved the Shadow's forces through the Ways and Portal Stones to take over Caemlyn, secure the Black Tower, take over Tear, Illian and Cairhen. He even could be making a play at Ebou Dar while the Seanchan are at the White Tower.

 

So at the opening of AMOL while all the Light's forces are gathered at the Field of Merrilor and the Seanchan are at the White Tower....they will have lost all their cities and the White Tower will become the last remining bastion for the Light....just like that and all this is Demandrads plan. It's pretty brilliant really.

 

Above all, Demandrad despises Lews Therin and anything Lews Therin accomplishes, Demandrad wants to outdo. So the logical reasoning is Demandrads plan will be to conquer everything Lews Therin has done and erase all his acomplishments and he will do it in one fell swoop.

 

Remember in KOD when Rand returns to Tear and Min has a vision where she sees half the citizens dying and Rand tells Darlin to take in one of the children and make sure he's taken care of? This is the result of Demandrads forces assaulting Tear in the opening strikes of the Last Battle. The Last Battle has started and the Light is going to have to really dig in their heels and overcome the adversity of being severly crippled in one massive blow by Demandrad and the Shadow ><.

Edited by gambril

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taim cannot be demandred for the simple reason that most of taim's actions has yielded some sort of fruit for the shadow whereas demandred has been playing hide and seek for a while now.

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I find the prospect that Jordan simply didn't plan out well enough to surprise people about Taim being Demandred insulting. Speaking as a writer I think if it was his intention he would have stuck to it and he would have 1) validated our suspicions earlier and 2) found a different reveal to wrap into Rand finding out who Demandred is. There really is very little change that happens to your story based on reader reaction because when it comes down to it you're not telling their story, you're telling your story. You write for yourself first.

 

I do like, as one poster pointed out, that Jordan has instead kept to his cyclical theme and set up Taim to be Rand's equivalent to Demandred. I would find it fitting if Taim actually ended up being the thread that unspools whatever monumental plan Demandred is weaving... even moreso than him being curbstomped by Mat (a distinct possibility).

 

On some level I hope Demandred's demise is quick and inglorious. People seem to lose sight of the fact that this series is about the Champions of the Light, not the Warriors of the Shadow. It's like hearing actors talk about how excited they are to play Iago... if you think he's that great a villain you never read the play all that closely. There's a reason Othello gets top billing. If demandred's death is more a whimper it would be a stern reminder of where our interest should be vested in this series.

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When Taim originally came to Camelyn, he was a middle-aged man and Rand wanted to know how he kept madness away for solong?
Taim is in his late twenties. Rand overestimated his age because he looked older due to the rigours of his journey. So he hasn't been channeling all that long. Taimandred is impossible. And RJ and BS have both said that we haven't yet met Demandred's alter ego (as of KoD). I'd say him being Roedran of Murandy, or otherwise involved in Murandy, is a distinct possibility.

 

Then DO explain why Demandred doesn't recognize Flinn? If Taim can recognize Flinn, why can't Demandred? Because Taim is NOT Demandred.

 

I'll let someone else smash up the theory further. Preferably Mr Ares.

It's possible to smash this theory up any further? No, the theory I will take exception to here is this one: "I think originally Robert Jordan was planning on having Taim = Demandred. But RJ made it too obvious and everyone saw right through it too quickly." I find this theory utterly absurd. For one thing, we have seen throughout that RJ did an awful lot of planning, and it seems most out of character for him to screw up all this planning on a whim, childishly, because we happened to have seen through it. The internet fandom is only a small part of fandom as a whole, and most readers will thus have to manage without a community of thousands offering their views - that's the reason we pick up on so much. Absent that, most people will not be as knowledgeable about the series, and so some will pick up on clues for a given mystery, but many won't. And if you offer clues, you run the risk of people discovering it, and there have been many mysteries with more supporting evidence. Essentially, this is an arrogant view that a mere handful of fans were so influential in RJ's mind, that when they happened to stumble across something he wanted to be a big reveal, rather than him just shrugging and thinking that some people were sure to pick up on it, that he tosses out years of planning to include a new character, new plotlines, all in a fit of childish pique. And there is no evidence for any of this. I find this theory to be a wholly unnecessary slur on RJ's character.

 

Thank you Mr Ares for again being the voice of reason.

 

I would also like to point out that there are some people who believe this same evidence obviously points out that Taim is Moridin (they are also wrong IMO). To see a fairly heated and entertaining debate about this see the Black Tower thread (around pages 13 - 19). You will see that those arguing against Taim=Moridin (and Taim=Demandred) offer a plausible explanation for Taim that doesn't have the problem of conflicting evidence or accusing the author of repeated bald-faced lies.

 

Also, there is a structured Taim thread for those interested in Taim that contains a number of various theories related to his identity.

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On a bit of a tangent, was it not the consensus that Demandred's "actions in the south" were related largely to the Prophet? Using the Prophet to sow chaos and D's propensity for proxies fits perfectly into D's character.

 

Getting back to the original basis of this thread, I have to agree with Taim being Taim and no one else. Sure, if we look hard enough at Taim, we can find things that pose a correlation between him and Demandred, but that alone is not proof. There are some oddball comments he makes, and Taim definitely has issues in being second at anything, but those eccentricities are not enough evidence for him to be anyone other than Taim.

 

Just my two cents.

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On a bit of a tangent, was it not the consensus that Demandred's "actions in the south" were related largely to the Prophet?
No.

 

We are not ever told that Demandred took actions in the south. We are shown that Sammael believes "Events to the south had Demandred’s mark all over them." This being in Arad Doman during early LOC, the simplest explanation is that Sammael mistakenly believed the Seanchan invasion was Demandred's work.

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I do like, as one poster pointed out, that Jordan has instead kept to his cyclical theme and set up Taim to be Rand's equivalent to Demandred. I would find it fitting if Taim actually ended up being the thread that unspools whatever monumental plan Demandred is weaving... even moreso than him being curbstomped by Mat (a distinct possibility).

 

Since it became obvious that Taim isn't Demandred, I've been a fan of the thought that Taim is to Rand what Demandred was to Lews Therin. The only real question is when he turned to the Shadow. I don't think that he started out as a Dreadlord. I think that even as late as Dumai's Wells, Taim was on Rand's side. It was between Dumai's Wells and the Asha'man assassination attempt that Taim flipped I think.

 

Although, the incident with the Grey Man is suspicious.

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On a bit of a tangent, was it not the consensus that Demandred's "actions in the south" were related largely to the Prophet?
No.

 

We are not ever told that Demandred took actions in the south. We are shown that Sammael believes "Events to the south had Demandred’s mark all over them." This being in Arad Doman during early LOC, the simplest explanation is that Sammael mistakenly believed the Seanchan invasion was Demandred's work.

 

But not the only explanation.

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No, not at all. It's just not a consensus as to what Sammael was referring to. Masema's a valid option and certainly it seems like a Forsaken was involved in manipulating him. I suspect Moghedien, but nothing rules Demandred out.

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So what has to happen for this theory to finally die completely? Apparently Demandred not recognising the first man tested by Taim wasn't enough, nor was his surprise that an old guy can channel, and neither was the repeated confirmations from Jordan that Demanded is not Taim. Somehow all this clear evidence against the theory is still not enough to overcome the several clues in favour of it, neither of which is that strong and all of which can be explained in a few other ways.

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I don't believe Taim is Demandred although I do think its a shame because there's so many simularities between Tain and Demandred. No matter who Demandred turns out to be, there's going to be a number of readers who will be disappointed, myself included, if Demandred doesn't turn out to be a reckoning force and if Taim's attempt to assault Rand isn't significant. I think it would have been much so satisfying if Taim was Demandred but there is too much against that, including RJ's very own announcement.

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The fact that we've reached the penultimate book without seeing Demandred do anything will make his big reveal disappointing no matter who he is. And honestly that would be the case even if he were Taim; a few hundred Dreadlords is impressive but not really Dragon's nemesis impressive.

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