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Testing


Burgandy
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Ha - when I clicked on this thread I thought it was a discussion of Nynaeve's Aes Sedai test.

 

 

I thought so too.

So, on that note, I'll just run with it.

 

The consensus seems to be that it was well written.

I won't disagree with that, but I was a little disappointed in the fact that she seemed to realize that it wasn't real but went ahead and broke the rules anyway. Typical Nynaeve.

I think she shouldn't have been raised. The only reason she was raised is because it needed to happen that way in the story.

 

A test has rules for a reason. What if Army Green Berets and people like that decided to just do whatever they want during their testing? Can you imagine someone who has just made it to the end of training killing someone with a gun when they are supposed to use a knife, and just sniffing and saying "I completed the (task) I needed to. I maintained focus. Etc..." :nynaeve:

 

I'm sure many will disagree, but that's how I feel about it. :angry:

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Ha - when I clicked on this thread I thought it was a discussion of Nynaeve's Aes Sedai test.

 

 

I thought so too.

So, on that note, I'll just run with it.

 

The consensus seems to be that it was well written.

I won't disagree with that, but I was a little disappointed in the fact that she seemed to realize that it wasn't real but went ahead and broke the rules anyway. Typical Nynaeve.

I think she shouldn't have been raised. The only reason she was raised is because it needed to happen that way in the story.

 

A test has rules for a reason. What if Army Green Berets and people like that decided to just do whatever they want during their testing? Can you imagine someone who has just made it to the end of training killing someone with a gun when they are supposed to use a knife, and just sniffing and saying "I completed the (task) I needed to. I maintained focus. Etc..." :nynaeve:

 

I'm sure many will disagree, but that's how I feel about it. :angry:

 

Yes a test has rules. Those rules are designed to bring out a certain path to follow while taking the test. Over time (3000 years) the ends desired by the rules have shifted, Nynaeve's take on the test was to prove she was already Aes Sedai, not to prove she was ready to become one. The current ages idea of Aes Sedai while on paper is the same as in the AoL (servants of the people), their actual attitude has shifted, and with that shift, their priorities have as well. So while I agree with you, Nynaeve should not have been raised to the current age Aes Sedai, she was certainly more than qualified to be Aes Sedai from an AoL point of view.

 

Bottom line, her motivations are to help/protect/serve, not rule/coerce/intimidate.

 

To follow along your green beret analogy, it would be more like this:

The perversion of green beret customs, now requires you to face an army with your bare hands during your testing (protecting the villiage behind you from certain destruction). You go before the army expecting to be tested, only to discover your enemies all have ak-47s. You are left with a choice to pull your sidearm and defend the people, or hold to what men have decided is the proper way of testing and die, sacrificing the villiage for the sake of the rules. You do the math here

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Part of why she passed the test was also because the Aes Sedai involved in the testing made it nearly impossible for her. If she didn't cheat in some cases she probably would have died there. I'd say this was considered and the point that tipped it towards passing her. The test was flawed due to Aes Sedai bias and Nynaeve adapted.

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Ha - when I clicked on this thread I thought it was a discussion of Nynaeve's Aes Sedai test.

 

 

I thought so too.

So, on that note, I'll just run with it.

 

The consensus seems to be that it was well written.

I won't disagree with that, but I was a little disappointed in the fact that she seemed to realize that it wasn't real but went ahead and broke the rules anyway. Typical Nynaeve.

I think she shouldn't have been raised. The only reason she was raised is because it needed to happen that way in the story.

 

A test has rules for a reason. What if Army Green Berets and people like that decided to just do whatever they want during their testing? Can you imagine someone who has just made it to the end of training killing someone with a gun when they are supposed to use a knife, and just sniffing and saying "I completed the (task) I needed to. I maintained focus. Etc..." :nynaeve:

 

I'm sure many will disagree, but that's how I feel about it. :angry:

A test might have rules for a reason, but that doesn't mean those rules are right, and should be blindly adhered to. In that test she was faced with everything that was wrong with AS, and she refused to go along with it.
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Funny that the SF analogy came into this. My younger brother is actually at Ft. Bragg getting ready to start Q Course (Special Forces Qualification Course). There are a number of flaws with the comparison but I wont get into that. It would be tedious and require much explanation and, in general, its a good analogy anyway as long as you don't get too specific.

 

That said, I have seen all the complaints about Nynaeve being raised even though she "cheated" in other threads as well as this one. I have to emphatically disagree. It was established directly after her testing that what she was put through was more difficult than a normal Aes Sedai testing in the extreme. Some of the Sisters involved in the testing were bitter old women who were jealous because she had been raised previously without first being tested. So, they took a "Oh yea? Well I'll show her!" attitude into the testing and WAY overdid it. This is just another amidst the myriad of reasons I hate most of the Aes Sedai in the series, Nynaeve being among the few exceptions. I don't thing there are more than a handful of currently raised Aes Sedai who would have survived, much less passed, the test that Nynaeve was given. It's a testament to her stength of will and character that she made it through that alive. I think its the Sisters who put her through that that don't deserve the shawl.

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I reckon the ashaman will also be tested once the last battle is done and they merge with the female aes sedai.

I don't think so in any way. To balance they Aes Sedai, they need to do thing the Asha'man way, not simply become male versions of existing Aes Sedai.

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I reckon the ashaman will also be tested once the last battle is done and they merge with the female aes sedai.

I don't think so in any way. To balance they Aes Sedai, they need to do thing the Asha'man way, not simply become male versions of existing Aes Sedai.

 

 

The ashaman will be tested just like their male counterparts in AOL in the future. No doubt about that. At the moment they have been simply taught to be weapons. kill and that's it.

 

The testing will go a long way in turning the ashaman from weapons to humans

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I reckon the ashaman will also be tested once the last battle is done and they merge with the female aes sedai.

I don't think so in any way. To balance they Aes Sedai, they need to do thing the Asha'man way, not simply become male versions of existing Aes Sedai.

 

 

The ashaman will be tested just like their male counterparts in AOL in the future. No doubt about that. At the moment they have been simply taught to be weapons. kill and that's it.

 

The testing will go a long way in turning the ashaman from weapons to humans

 

I would say there are plenty of reasons to doubt it. What if Taim wins and holds the BT through the last battle. What if Rand dies and can't institute some kind of test? What if all the Ashaman are killed at Tarmon Gaidon? What if the second breaking destroys the Black Tower? What if the DO wins and the whole world is "poof" gone?

 

Also, where is it said anywhere that channelers were tested at all in the AoL? I could be wrong but I don't think its ever been confirmed. Its likely, but not certain.

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I reckon the ashaman will also be tested once the last battle is done and they merge with the female aes sedai.

I don't think so in any way. To balance they Aes Sedai, they need to do thing the Asha'man way, not simply become male versions of existing Aes Sedai.

 

 

The ashaman will be tested just like their male counterparts in AOL in the future. No doubt about that. At the moment they have been simply taught to be weapons. kill and that's it.

 

The testing will go a long way in turning the ashaman from weapons to humans

 

I would say there are plenty of reasons to doubt it. What if Taim wins and holds the BT through the last battle. What if Rand dies and can't institute some kind of test? What if all the Ashaman are killed at Tarmon Gaidon? What if the second breaking destroys the Black Tower? What if the DO wins and the whole world is "poof" gone?

 

Also, where is it said anywhere that channelers were tested at all in the AoL? I could be wrong but I don't think its ever been confirmed. Its likely, but not certain.

 

 

heh. The story of shaitan and his minions. What ifs. Because what if is the closest thing they can get to a victory in this series.

 

Oh as for evidence of testing, ask rand sedai who is now the oldest living male aes sedai who has been tested.

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I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow.

ToM pg 748

It says raised but says nothing about testing

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I would say there are plenty of reasons to doubt it. What if Taim wins and holds the BT through the last battle. What if Rand dies and can't institute some kind of test? What if all the Ashaman are killed at Tarmon Gaidon? What if the second breaking destroys the Black Tower? What if the DO wins and the whole world is "poof" gone?

 

Also, where is it said anywhere that channelers were tested at all in the AoL? I could be wrong but I don't think its ever been confirmed. Its likely, but not certain.

 

 

heh. The story of shaitan and his minions. What ifs. Because what if is the closest thing they can get to a victory in this series.

 

Oh as for evidence of testing, ask rand sedai who is now the oldest living male aes sedai who has been tested.

 

I don't have the Guide with me right now, but if IIRC, the Aes Sedai of the AOL were not subjected to tests anything like the Third Agers "test for the shawl". I remember that they were tested for strength in the One Power and potential, before being given over to training. That was about it. Apparently, aspiring Aes Sedai were not even tested to establish character, as the way so many fell to the Shadow would seem to prove.

 

So, even if Rand had been tested in his previous lifetime as Lews Therin, I'm pretty sure the test was very different to what Third Agers submit Accepted to when testing them "for the shawl" and if anything, it is they who should adjust to any rediscovered training methods that Rand may (may not) establish and not the other way around.

Edited by Darth Krewl
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I reckon the ashaman will also be tested once the last battle is done and they merge with the female aes sedai.

I don't think so in any way. To balance they Aes Sedai, they need to do thing the Asha'man way, not simply become male versions of existing Aes Sedai.

 

 

The ashaman will be tested just like their male counterparts in AOL in the future. No doubt about that. At the moment they have been simply taught to be weapons. kill and that's it.

 

The testing will go a long way in turning the ashaman from weapons to humans

 

I would say there are plenty of reasons to doubt it. What if Taim wins and holds the BT through the last battle. What if Rand dies and can't institute some kind of test? What if all the Ashaman are killed at Tarmon Gaidon? What if the second breaking destroys the Black Tower? What if the DO wins and the whole world is "poof" gone?

 

Also, where is it said anywhere that channelers were tested at all in the AoL? I could be wrong but I don't think its ever been confirmed. Its likely, but not certain.

 

 

heh. The story of shaitan and his minions. What ifs. Because what if is the closest thing they can get to a victory in this series.

 

Oh as for evidence of testing, ask rand sedai who is now the oldest living male aes sedai who has been tested.

 

Where are you getting this from? Just because the good guys usually win in fantasy does not meat they will in the WoT. Usually is not always. You're making a lot of assumptions with little to no evidence.

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I would say there are plenty of reasons to doubt it. What if Taim wins and holds the BT through the last battle. What if Rand dies and can't institute some kind of test? What if all the Ashaman are killed at Tarmon Gaidon? What if the second breaking destroys the Black Tower? What if the DO wins and the whole world is "poof" gone?

 

Also, where is it said anywhere that channelers were tested at all in the AoL? I could be wrong but I don't think its ever been confirmed. Its likely, but not certain.

 

 

heh. The story of shaitan and his minions. What ifs. Because what if is the closest thing they can get to a victory in this series.

 

Oh as for evidence of testing, ask rand sedai who is now the oldest living male aes sedai who has been tested.

 

I don't have the Guide with me right now, but if IIRC, the Aes Sedai of the AOL were not subjected to tests anything like the Third Agers "test for the shawl". I remember that they were tested for strength in the One Power and potential, before being given over to training. That was about it. Apparently, aspiring Aes Sedai were not even tested to establish character, as the way so many fell to the Shadow would seem to prove.

 

So, even if Rand had been tested in his previous lifetime as Lews Therin, I'm pretty sure the test was very different to what Third Agers submit Accepted to when testing them "for the shawl" and if anything, it is they who should adjust to any rediscovered training methods that Rand may (may not) establish and not the other way around.

 

Also, good points.

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Rand referred to it as being 'raised', which suggests something a bit more complex than mere testing for the OP. He also says he was 'properly' raised.

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Ha - when I clicked on this thread I thought it was a discussion of Nynaeve's Aes Sedai test.

 

 

I thought so too.

So, on that note, I'll just run with it.

 

The consensus seems to be that it was well written.

I won't disagree with that, but I was a little disappointed in the fact that she seemed to realize that it wasn't real but went ahead and broke the rules anyway. Typical Nynaeve.

I think she shouldn't have been raised. The only reason she was raised is because it needed to happen that way in the story.

 

A test has rules for a reason. What if Army Green Berets and people like that decided to just do whatever they want during their testing? Can you imagine someone who has just made it to the end of training killing someone with a gun when they are supposed to use a knife, and just sniffing and saying "I completed the (task) I needed to. I maintained focus. Etc..." :nynaeve:

 

I'm sure many will disagree, but that's how I feel about it. :angry:

i think she just pulled an awsome Kobayashi Maru besides shes more of a real aes sedai than any1 save rand atm. besides the testing showed she was far past it in knowledge and too strong for it anyway.

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Rand referred to it as being 'raised', which suggests something a bit more complex than mere testing for the OP. He also says he was 'properly' raised.

 

The term "raising" someone is a bit vague. In some languages, it's still applied for a promotion at work these days, for instance (with the proper raise in responsibilities and in salary, of course); something that does not require a test most of the time, but is more dependent on the evaluation and judgment of your boss(es), based on your performance.

 

So IMO, we can only speculate as to how AS from the AoL were "properly raised". It could be that aspiring AS were subjected to some kind of trials or simply evaluated by their superiors and raised according to their consent (the way some people are still "raised" to a higher station in work, as explained above). Either way, I think it'd be safe to say that the AS of the AoL weren't raised in the same fashion as their female counterparts from the Third Age.

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I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow.

ToM pg 748

It says raised but says nothing about testing

 

 

you don't just get raised without going through a process. Otherwise any tom, dik and harry can be raised to Aes Sedai.

 

Darth Krewl

 

the process to being raised might turn out to be different in AOL compared to third aggers. But i think they will have to go through a test of somesorts. To weed out the weak and corrupt from those who truly deserve the title of Sedai.

 

The ashaman at the moment need to learn many things. I remember canler learning the view of bonding and how it pissed off taim. For a very good reason.

 

johthohar

 

 

My assumptions are based on reading 13 books of the series where the shadow has been exposed as a bunch of incompetents at every step of the way since book 7. That may change in the last book but i am not holding my breath

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