True Power Vs. the Light ????

[HawksHead]

Does anyone think that perhaps, since Moridin is channeling the True Power, which is a different form of power than the One Power; that perhaps the Creator has a form of True Power of his own, which we haven't seen yet?

 

Rand is currently unable to use the One Power pretty much, since he's getting sicker and sicker everytime. What if he learns to use this supposed "True Power" of the Light before the Last Battle and is able to use THAT to imprison the dark one again.

 

thought???

[Skull26]

We don't really know what can happen with the Creator. But I don't know if the Creator needs the 'power' the way they talk about it makes me think the Creator is all powerful or something along those lines.

[Guest Majsju]

I'd say the One Power is the Creator's power. The One Power is blanace, order and creation, which is the exact opposite to the DO. The DO is chaos and destruction, so naturally he'd have a power of his own that stands quite different from the One Power.

[HawksHead]

so, does that mean that Rand, with the One Power, which is currently looking much weaker then the True Power of the DO, is going to have to face Whoever he's going to have to face, if you'll pardon the metaphor, Naked?

[RobertAlexWillis]

That may be the case. Although we don't really know what the limits of the TP are. We haven't seen the OP and the TP in direct opposition, or even in contact except at Shadar Logoth at the end of aCoS. And that has had .... unpredictable .... results.

[Guest Majsju]

What says that the OP is weaker than the TP?

 

They are different, that's for sure. But that doesn't mean any of them is stronger than the other.

 

It's a quite common theme in fiction where good and evil are faced against eachother. The evil has something that is strong in destruction, and therefore seems stronger than what the good side has. Only, the good side's strength lies in other things, which often turns out to give them the upper hand in the end.

[Rumor]

That's just what I would have said Maj...the bad side almost always seems to be stronger for a good part of series', but usually that's not the case. The OP being the Creator's side of power makes sense...I think that the best that Rand and his pals can do in defeating the DO is allow for their to be balance between good and evil and the DO is trying to destroy that balance (of course). Even without the DO around, people are still going to do bad things, after all.

[Luckers]

I argue strongly against the existence of a 'Devine Power' as i've heard it coined in the past, and for no more reason then that it would completely invalidate a majority of the series. Concider all the time and effort Rand put into learning saidin, gathering Asha'men, cleansing saidin. Concider all the time spent in developing him in a character... all that would be shoved aside into unimportance if Rand developed a Devine Power in the last book.

 

That being said, i also dislike the idea of it... its too much of a combination of dues ex machina and its also way too western religion for this series.

[Rumor]

Well, I also don't like the idea of there being a divine power, but (playing devil's advocate here) it's not necessary that such an existence would invalidate the rest of the series...perhaps all of the steps taken by Rand, learning to channel and such, are necessary still in order for him to use some other power; and perhaps he cannot find it alone, but will need the help of his Ashaman.

 

I think it makes less sense for their to be a divine power than just the OP and the TP...that's two; one for the Creator and one for the DO; but it's possible for a third to exist without destroying the story.

[RedHandedJill]

Would someone mind giving a short explanation of the differences between the One and True Powers? I don't have my books handy, and I can't remember specific differences being spelled out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The One Power, used by the Creator as the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time, is divided in to two separate halves, which work both in opposition to one another, and together to turn the Wheel. It is drawn from what is called the True Source. The two halves are associated with the two genders, saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Human channelers are born with the ability to channel. Some have the "spark" which means that they will eventually touch the Source, willing or unwilling. Many more have the ability to learn to touch the Source, but will not ever do it unless they are taught. Threads of the One Power are divided into five types or powers, Fire, Earth, Air, Water, and Spirit. Women are generally more adept in Air and Water, men are generally stronger in Fire and Earth, and facility in Spirit seems to be equally distributed. Men, in general, can channel with greater strength than women, while women, in general, can weave with more dexterity and complexity. The use of the One Power is guided by the free will of the channeler, that is, it can be used for any purpose the channeler is able to discover the means for, without regard to moral concerns. Drawing too much of the One Power has consequences which range from headaches and pain, all the way to being burned out (losing the ability to channel) and death. This is a danger because use of the Power can be addictive, when it is used it produces an enlivening effect that is quite pleasurable. The One Power can used to sever another channeler from the Source, either temporarily with a shield or more permanently by cutting the ability out of them, and it can also restore that ability through Healing. Channelers can feel other channelers using the Power. In addition, female channelers can detect the ability in another female simply by being relatively close to the other woman. Male channelers require a special test to detect a resonance in order to discover the ability in another. Unless deliberately concealed, channelers can see the weaves and flows of other channelers of the same gender, and detect when another channeler is embracing/seizing the Power, and when the Power is being channeled.

 

The True Power is drawn dirctly from the Dark One, and can only be used with his knowledge and approval. The methods for weaving and drawing it may be radically different ... we don't have enough information to say for sure. We know it can serve many of the same purposes as the One Power (travelling, balefire). We also know it can do some things that the One Power cannot (heal madness caused by the taint). Since we have only one POV of someone using the True Power (Moridin/Ishamael), our knowledge of it is much more limited. But we know its use cannot be detected by anyone other than the user, except by viewing its effects externally, and it is implied that only one who has the ability to channel the One Power can have the ability to use the True Power. Unlike the One Power, its use is not solely directed by the user, but subject to the approval of the Dark One. It is also extremely addictive, but the price for drawing too much is different. An evidence of its use is the appearance of saa, minute black flecks that move in a straight line across both eyes of the user. It has been speculated that saa are the mark of the Dark One's connection with the user, and possibly that the users will is subsumed by the Dark One. The observed effect in Ishamael of having his eyes and mouth become like caverns of flame is one result of extended use of the True Power.

 

Thats hardly comprehensive, but that should cover the basics.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "What says that the OP is weaker than the TP?"

 

Im sure at some point one of the Forsaken has given us confirmation via their POV, but I cant remember which. Sorry about the vagueness of this bit. In my oppinion the Rand & One Power vs. Moridin & True Power battle that Im hoping for would edge towards Rand because of the Ta'veren twist on events. However, it has been said that the effect of a Ta'veren can be mimicked with the One Power...Id like to see that used against Rand.

 

Slightly off topic, has anyone else noted that Lews Therin knows Moridin uses the True Power? In KOD when Rand starts seeing Moridins face clearly Lews Therin says "they follow their so-called True Power now." (True Power is capitalised so I know he knows about the TP somehow.)

[RobertAlexWillis]

The various Forsaken Pov's neither confirm nor disprove the relative strength of the One Power and the True Power. However, Jordan has said that there are no angreal and sa'angreal for the True Power. Whether that means that the True Power cannot be channeled in larger amounts, or that you can channel it in an unlimited fashion without such tools, is unknown. We have not seen anything done with the True Power that is not within Rand's capabilities with the One Power, except when Elan Morina Tedronai healed Lews Therin Telamon of his taint-madness in the Prologue to The Eye of the World. That appeared to be more a difference in application than a greater "amount" of strength. The True Power's advantage seems to lie in its undetectability, not in greater strength. After all, the Dark One is the Source of the True Power, and if it was stronger overall than the One Power, you'd think he'd have beat the Creator at the beginning.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also, regarding Lews Therin's knowledge of the True Power ... we know it was used some during the War of the Shadow, since Moghedien mentions others who have used it, so it is reasonable to conclude that Lews Therin would find out about it. Since the balefire Moridin wove in Shadar Logoth was not felt as a weaving of saidin by the Rand/Lews Therin conglomerate, Lews Therin would have recognized it by effect.[/i]

[Luckers]

Lews Therin did not say that, it was Rand who thought those words, followed by a line about how it longer seemed strange for the other mans knowledge to seem like his own.

 

Given that 39 people have used the True Power, it doesn't seem strange that it was later commented on by the Light, and became known to the leader of the war against the shadow. Likely one of them was captured and tortured at some stage.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think there has been enough memory/consciousness leakage both ways between the personalities that it isn't really accurate to say that Rand can be knowing/thinking something without Lews Therin knowing/thinking it too.

[Luckers]

Rand directed those comments AT Lews Therin specifically as a part of a conversation. Moreover whats happened in the rest of that chapter more then indicate that the two are seperate and distinct personalities. They may have access to some of each others memories and knowledge, but their thoughts are seperate.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You are, of course, correct that the actual statement He was using their so-called True Power is the consciousness stream of Rand al'Thor addressing that of Lews Therin Telamon. I simply meant that Rand only knows about the True Power because either Lews Therin told him, or the memory slipped across from Lews Therin. No one else in the Light groups seems to have any awareness of it.

 

Oh, and in the interest of being needlessly picky, it was 29 people who have used the True Power Luckers, not 39. I know, it was probably just a typo.

[Luckers]

Lol, it wasn't, but you are quite right. 29.

[RedHandedJill]

Well, Robert (?), thanks for the explanation, it was way more than I expected! The main reason I asked about the differences between the two is because I'm curious why the True Power is automatically attributed to the Dark One? You didn't mention any evidence of that, which makes me feel less silly for asking :) but I'm sure someone will pounce on this right away. Does anyone have any solid proof that it is only associated with the DO? I always looked at it as more like channeling straight from the source instead of through a filter of sorts, and assumed that at some point, one or more of the protagonists would also do it. Am I loony?

[Luckers]

It can only be accessed with the Dark One's direct permission. With that permission withdrawn, you might as easily reach for the sun.

[RedHandedJill]

Right...for the Forsaken. It makes sense that they would have to defer to him for that kind of power. But is there evidence that none but those sworn to the DO can use it? I didn't think there was. On the other hand, I know it's only been mentioned in relation to the Forsaken. And LTT refers to it as "their" true power, doesn't he? Oh well, I was just wondering if there is a concensus on it.

[RedHandedJill]

Right...for the Forsaken. It makes sense that they would have to defer to him for that kind of power. But is there evidence that none but those sworn to the DO can use it? I didn't think there was. On the other hand, I know it's only been mentioned in relation to the Forsaken. And LTT refers to it as "their" true power, doesn't he? Oh well, I was just wondering if there is a concensus on it.

[Guest Majsju]

Here's a summary of everything mentioned in the books about TP (except KOD)

 

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.3_how-work-dark/1.3.2_true-power.html

 

It should answer most of your questions.

[RedHandedJill]

Thanks!