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Caemlyn in the Epilogue. Poll.

Caemlyn  

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  1. 1. Whose Fault Is Caemlyn



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What I dont get is how some people are blaming Rand for drawing everyone to the Field of Merrilor. He never said for Egwene to marshal all of the world's forces and then meet. never said that. That was purely Egwene's idea. She is going to try and intimidate him or something; which makes me think she hasn't learned anything yet about the new Rand. So the only thing that could POSSIBLY be Rand's fault is telling Elayne exactly where the waygate is.

 

Elayne should take most of the blame. She most likely will. It is HER city after all. She is the one that must defend her people, not Mat or Verin. Somehow Mat is going to be the one to actually minimize the damage and Elayne will yet again be indebted to him, and she will not admit it.

 

In a perfect world it would have happened like this: Verin tells Mat to open the letter and make his own choice, Mat opens it when he first gets to Caemlyn, warns Elayne of the contents of the letter, they get a hold of Rand who tells them where the waygate is, then they seal it. Alas, this is not a perfect world. It would be too boring if it was.

 

I am not sure if they will ever be able to make me like Elayne before the end of the book, too stuck up.

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Elayne should take most of the blame. She most likely will. It is HER city after all. She is the one that must defend her people, not Mat or Verin. Somehow Mat is going to be the one to actually minimize the damage and Elayne will yet again be indebted to him, and she will not admit it.

she wouldnt be indebted to him, he would just be doing his job, as per the contract they negotiated with the band under the Andoran crown for now, and since he will more likely do it wellish she will likely grant him land rights.

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I would say:

 

A. We don't even know how bad the damage in Caemlyn will be, especially since a gateway can get the Dragon Reborn himself there in about a minute. The letter, ultimately, did get read, and perhaps in time to save the city.

 

B. This is a silly question. Fault in this situation can only fall to Lan. He should have killed all the Trollocs some time ago.

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Verin never once stated it was important in her conversation with Mat. if anything, when she backed down, she was like, "fine, you can read it if you want." She should have said, "In ten days, you need to read this letter. Its extremely important." And Mat probably would have done so. But come on, put yourself in Mats shoes. Would you want to get caught up in yet another potential Aes Sedai plot when you have already have a billion things to do? Especially when said Aes Sedai never stresses the importance of the letter in the first place. Verin was wrong for not putting it in Elaynes hands, or Cadsuane,s or anyones for that matter. She could easily have Traveled to Andor, left the letter for Elayne to open in ten days, and left. Done. And being less suspicious in general, Elayne probably would have opened it.

 

Although, it would have looked better for Mat if Elayne had mentioned to him that Verin was a darkfriend after Egwene told her. Then he would definetly not open it, and we wouldnt be having this discussion.

 

I just think alot of people like to think of Veirn as infallible, when Mat once again proves time and time again how hard he is to read and judge.

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Elayne had to have some idea that trollocs were using something to get to where they wanted (maybe she didn't know it was the ways) but she has been told about trollocs attacking the two rivers. She couldn't have expected such a large force of trollocs to creep through from the blight could she?

Edited by heliage

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Elayne had to have some idea that trollocs were using something to get to where they wanted (maybe she didn't know it was the ways) but she has been told about trollocs attacking the two rivers. She couldn't have expected such a large force of trollocs to creep through from the blight could she?

even if she had some idea, she knows forsaken are out there and that travelling is common knowledge now. I dont think she knows shadowspawn cant move through gateways

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So I'm reading TGS trying to figure out the numbers in the Band for the Military Roundup thread, and the whole scene with Verin and Mat is very interesting. Her first offer was rejected, so she asked Mat to stay for a minimum of 50 days if he chose to not open the letter. In re-reading the scene it shouts out that Verin was preparing a contigency plan in case Trollocs attacked through the Waygate. She must have had some information on the planned timing of the event, thus the odd number of days she requested of Mat. If he opened the letter, great problem solved. If he didn't open the letter, it's not as bad because the Band will still be there to rally the defenses.

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I'm more curious to find out what would Mat and Elayne feel about it.

 

Do you think Mat would blame himself for not opening the letter? Or maybe his "hatred" towards Aes Sedai would be even stonger now? He don't know that Verin was Black and that she couldn't just tell him about the attack, he could just think she was playing with him.

 

What about Elayne? IS she going to blame anyone? Mat for the letter? Rand for the door? Herself?

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Blaming Matt is just weak at best. Matt had no duty to that city nor did he have a duty to open that letter. Elayne had a duty for her own city and her own people. Anyone with even the slightest bit of common sense wouldn't move the soldiers out...the enemies know how to use both waygates and have forsaken who can create portals so sending your troops away is a perfect example of a fail leader. She knew of the impending attack.

 

If the city falls, the blame rests squarely on Elaynes shoulders, no one elses.

Elayne was warned of the attack, and so took steps to guard her country (Andor is bigger than Caemlyn). Where is it stated she left Caemlyn undefended? The Waygate is "guarded, barricaded, and thought secure", to quote Verin. As for the Chosen, Shadowspawn can't pass through Gateways. If Traveling is out, the Ways are protected, where is the invasion going to come from? Outside, across the border? Well, she'd better increase border defences - hang on, she did. She took reasonable precautions against the attack. Verin tried to pass the information along, Mat didn't act on the information he had. Mat alone did nothing.

 

 

She is going to try and intimidate him or something
Convince him to listen to reason.

 

Somehow Mat is going to be the one to actually minimize the damage and Elayne will yet again be indebted to him, and she will not admit it.
If Mat saves the city, I wouldn't consider Elayne indebted to him. After all, better late than never still means many died who didn't have to if he had opened that letter.

 

 

Verin never once stated it was important in her conversation with Mat.
"Because I might not need you to go through with the contents. I hope to be able to return to you and relieve you of the letter and send you on your way. But if I cannot...". So yes, she said it was important.
She should have said, "In ten days, you need to read this letter. Its extremely important." And Mat probably would have done so. But come on, put yourself in Mats shoes. Would you want to get caught up in yet another potential Aes Sedai plot when you have already have a billion things to do?
So Mat probably wouldn't have done so - he would have done his level best to avoid getting caught up in "AS schemes". In Mat's shoes, I would find out what was in the leter, then decide on whether or not to act on it. If I had to AS my way around my oath, or just break it, I would do so.

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Why has the obvious Olvendred option not been allowed?

 

Fair enough. I'll go with the next best thing of Melli Craeb. Her inn seems just a bit too clean. I'm inclined to think this is something akin to the Dark One's protection for male Forsaken in the early parts of the book. Now we have a similar protection for the infamous organization, related to the Kin (a Black Ajah within them) who tend to pick "Innkeeper" as their profession, as well as "Cook", while in the outside world. Without this special protection for their food (Nakomi is one as well, for those who missed it. Notice the unnaturally good tasting food?) and/or establishments, they would fall to rats and corruption.

Edited by Elend

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Elayne had to have some idea that trollocs were using something to get to where they wanted (maybe she didn't know it was the ways) but she has been told about trollocs attacking the two rivers. She couldn't have expected such a large force of trollocs to creep through from the blight could she?

 

I think at this point in the book, just about everyone is aware of huge groups of trollocs popping up in places they were not expected. Rand sent that group out to start locking or destroying way gates because of it. I don't know off the top of my head how many people are aware of the portal stones but I think that is another way trollocs are being moved about.

 

The way portal under Elayne's control had never been destroyed. It's not good leadership to just trust that it remained guarded and secure. After all, the prisoners under her guard couldn't even be kept secure. Should she have expected a large group to creep through the blight? Sure, considering the last battle is just around the corner, trollocs are known for being around in large numbers with no explanation for how they got there and of course, she does have a city to defend, that is after all, her responsibility. Not to mention the fact that she had been warned of its impending nature.

 

 

I'm more curious to find out what would Mat and Elayne feel about it.

 

Do you think Mat would blame himself for not opening the letter? Or maybe his "hatred" towards Aes Sedai would be even stonger now? He don't know that Verin was Black and that she couldn't just tell him about the attack, he could just think she was playing with him.

 

What about Elayne? IS she going to blame anyone? Mat for the letter? Rand for the door? Herself?

 

I am sure Matt will take self-blame for it. It is in no way his fault of course and from what I can see, just about everyone agrees with that. He had no duty or responsibility for the city nor for opening the letter. But as Matt is Matt, he will likely take full blame for it should anything go wrong. From where we left off, we are unsure what is happening but I can already see Matt charging towards the city, cursing himself the entire time.

 

Rand? He may say, "I am sorry for that." As his thing to do of late, but I doubt he will let it bother him to much. He has tons on his plate and I think his character clearly got passed the self-loathing that would've been a problem from an event like this. Not to mention of course that the way gate had been entirely under Elaynes control for awhile now.

 

Elayne? Of course she will blame herself. It is her city. They are her people and she is the Queen. She had control over the way gate. She is the only one directly and entirely responsible. She doesn't and didn't even know about Verin so that part is a non-factor.

 

In the end we shall see how it plays out. Perhaps it is nothing more then a chapters worth of a battle, but considering all things....I suspect Caemlyn may be ripe for being burned down or at least a huge battle happening there. It is a great place for it after all. We shall see how it all plays out.

 

In the end I think most agree it's Elaynes fault. To blame Verin..yeah perhaps she made a mistake on her part but that end of it is murky at best. We know to little about that part of it. It clearly wasn't Matt's fault. It rested on Elayne. When the next book comes, we shall see just how bad and how much, her blunder has cost the good forces of Randland.

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In the end I think most agree it's Elaynes fault. To blame Verin..yeah perhaps she made a mistake on her part but that end of it is murky at best. We know to little about that part of it. It clearly wasn't Matt's fault. It rested on Elayne. When the next book comes, we shall see just how bad and how much, her blunder has cost the good forces of Randland.

 

"Her blunder"? Come on, what are you suggesting she should have done?

 

Destroy the waygate she thought secure and guarded?

Destroying the bridge is not how you defend yourself during a war. You guard it, destroy it as a last resort.

They've already experienced problems with traveling (Perin's army, The White and The Black Tower), these Waygates may be needed in some point.

And that's surely not the only Waygate in "Randland". I don't remember anyone else destroying them. Not even Rand.

Edited by stoper

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In the end I think most agree it's Elaynes fault. To blame Verin..yeah perhaps she made a mistake on her part but that end of it is murky at best. We know to little about that part of it. It clearly wasn't Matt's fault. It rested on Elayne. When the next book comes, we shall see just how bad and how much, her blunder has cost the good forces of Randland.

 

"Her blunder"? Come on, what are you suggesting she should have done?

 

Destroy the waygate she thought secure and guarded?

Destroying the bridge is not how you defend yourself during a war. You guard it, destroy it as a last resort.

They've already experienced problems with traveling (Perin's army, The White and The Black Tower), these Waygates may be needed in some point.

And that's surely not the only Waygate in "Randland". I don't remember anyone else destroying them. Not even Rand.

 

Seriously? It was her kingdom, her people, her city and she had been warned...yeah...she really couldn't have done anything.

 

She absolutely should have destroyed a waygate that led directly into her city. If the taint was cleansed from the way, new ones could be grown. There is a vast difference between a bridge and a waygate. The good forces cannot use the way as the shadow can because of machin shin. If the dark forces lose thousands of trollocs, it is a small loss to them and worth the risk. The good side wouldn't ever do that. So it is vastly different from a bridge the good side can utilize and use even for common folk and merchants. There is no legit reason to keep that waygate. And as I said, the entire "she was told it was guarded and secure," thing just goes to prove how bad she failed. She of all people should have known it was her duty to see to that waygate. She found out first hand in her own dungeon, in her own palace, just how secure things can be. I think the chance that potentially thousands of trollocs could come flooding out of a waygate, sitting right in the middle of her city is enough risk that any reasonable leader would have terminated it after having known that they were be used in such a way in other places. But I guess, blind trust in that it was safe and protected was plenty enough. Except it wasn't. She failed. The results are undeniable. And her city is under attack (we assume) now because of it.

 

Other waygates have been destroyed and Rand specifically sent Loial out there to destroy them before people woke up to trollocs descending on them, even thousands of miles south of the blight. That is the entire point. Elayne failed. She could have done lots of things but didn't. In the end, my only real point was to show that clearly it was Elaynes fault and no one elses. I think blaming Verin is weird. She could have, should have, would have, but she had no duty to the city or its people. We know very little about the circumstances surrounding her letter to Matt. Perhaps she made a large blunder in thinking he would open it, perhaps if one had her story fleshed out more, it wasn't a blunder at all, or was excusable. Mat holds no blame, that is clear. He will undoubtedly blame himself but that is just his character.

Edited by Goramier

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can anyone inform me whether or not Elayne knew whether or not there was a gateway in her city? Personally I dont think she had any information on where it was or anything like that.

 

You cannot fault Elayne too far if she didnt know where the waygate was, or even if it existed.

 

even with her full army at home, the majority of it woudl be sitting in the castle, or on the outter walls with a smaller portion on the inner walls. And guess what Caemlyn would have been burned anyways, all that would havehappened is quite a few soldiers would have died. Remember that southern armies would not be able to stand against the first shock of fighting shadowspawn, many would have been overrun. And after they got their backbone back into them trollocs could have burned the same amount of the city

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She absolutely should have destroyed a waygate that led directly into her city. If the taint was cleansed from the way, new ones could be grown. There is a vast difference between a bridge and a waygate. The good forces cannot use the way as the shadow can because of machin shin.

Can't they?

Maybe not for moving troops, but for escape. What if the city was under siege and Rand was inside, with traveling not working? The waygate is a chance for retreat, even with all it's dangers.

 

And after all, it's just a gate, right? You just need to watch it and when the first enemy show his head, you don't need more than 10 min. to bring some of your forces back to defend the city.

 

Other waygates have been destroyed and Rand specifically sent Loial out there to destroy them before people woke up to trollocs descending on them, even thousands of miles south of the blight.

Wow, I don't remember that part. Looks like I have to check the first books.

Edited by stoper

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I was really beginning to think that Elayne was going to be a person to admire about half way through this book, her character development was great but this was RUBBISH Elayne! How could you get a report from a member of the Black Ajah saying your city was going to be invaded and not done anything about it. Blood and ashes, you'd need to make sure the city you rule was safe before running off to get another crown. After her fiasco in the dungeons nothing is said about trying to capture/fool other darkfriends into giving more specific information. We know that there is a large ring of them in Caemlyn and they have been attacking Mat left right and centre so it shouldn't have been to hard to find some.

 

And not saying anything to Mat and Birgitte straight away was imbecillic, that may have prompted Mat into opening Verin's letter. Even after the event she should have talked to Mat (at the dragon demonstration) as she knows his miltary capacity!

 

Another thing that annoyed me was that when Egwene, Elyane and Nyneave met in TAR Egwene told them about the Black Ajah, now if I was Elayne I definatly would have asked if Duhara was Black, but no! Elayne 'Queen of bleeding everywhere' Trakand doesn't have enough sense to ask.

 

Dyelin was right to be annoyed when Elayne bogged off to Cairhein, even though she's the one who doesn't have any intelligence information. But it looks as though she is the one left behind to look after Caemlyn, so she should do a reasonable job at defending the city, but I have a feeling she will probobly die. I hope Elayne shows some remorse this time unlike when Carean and friends did everyone in.

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Goramier, on 21 November 2010 - 11:01 AM, said:

 

Other waygates have been destroyed and Rand specifically sent Loial out there to destroy them before people woke up to trollocs descending on them, even thousands of miles south of the blight.

 

Wow, I don't remember that part. Looks like I have to check the first books.

 

 

I think books 5-7 is that thread, loial and a ashaman who has fell off the radar walk around and are closing the waygates rand knows about. I dont know if they are just taking the leaf from the inside or from teh outside. Actually no one knows so they could possibly not have done the proper actions so it could possibly be overridden

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I think the reason you don't remember it's because it's because it never happened. None of the Waygates have been destroyed. Rand last sent Elder Hamann to seal those he hasn't sealed himself. Nothing can destroy a Waygate except a full circle of 13 Aes Sedai. Before that Loial was sent to alert the Ogier leaders of the danger of the Waygates near steddings, and they agreed to watch them and guard them the Waygates, but those haven't been destroyed either.

Edited by David Selig

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I think the reason you don't remember it's because it's because it never happened. None of the Waygates have been destroyed. Rand last sent Elder Hamann to seal those he hasn't sealed himself. Nothing can destroy a Waygate except a full circle of 13 Aes Sedai. Before that Loial was sent to alert the Ogier leaders of the danger of the Waygates near steddings, and they agreed to watch them and guard them the Waygates, but those haven't been destroyed either.

Loial destroyed the one near manetheren. He said that they would need to regrow it, since he removed both leaves

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Egwene is 90% to blame here. If she weren't so foolish in trying to gather armies to stop Rand being the 2-faced Aes Sedai she is, then Caemlyn would've had a fighting force.

The other 10% falls to Elayne, while the BA she interrogated mentioned the invasion to her, KNOWING that there was going to be a Darkfriend uprising - at the least - in Andor she went off with her entire army anyway to go to Egwene's foolish thing to stop Rand breaking the seals.

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Its hard to lay fault on anyone for it.

 

Verin - She did as much as she could. She couldn't directly tell Mat to read the note, whether right when she handed it to him or X amount of days after she handed it to him. Telling him to read the note would of been the same thing as just vocally telling him. So her oaths kept her from directly telling him to read it. So she did pretty much everything she could. I guess she could of done more to make Mat more curious. As she was leaving she could of lied, which certainly would of made Mat more curious. Him or Thom would of eventually figured out that by her lying, she was pretty much naming herself as a darkfriend (like she did with Egwene). Once Mat figured out she was a darkfriend, he could open it up without having to worry about actually doing what the note said. He wouldn't feel obligated to keep his word to a darkfriend.

 

Mat - I don't see how he could be at fault at all. He didn't want to get tied up with an Aes Sedai, so he was just going to sit it out and wait for her to come take care of it herself

 

Elayne - As far as she knew the way gate was closed (I think). She couldn't of known that the invasion could come from within Caemlyn. I guess you could say that she knew an invasion was coming, so she shouldn't most of her forces out of Caemlyn. But she thought the invasion was going to come outside of Caemlyn, and she can travel. If Caemlyn was attacked from outside Caemlyn she could of had her troops back in Caemlyn in time to defend it. This is assuming that she has someone able to travel watching for an incoming invasion, and who will travel to Elayne to warn her.

 

Ultimately, I blame Verin. Not because she was the darkfriend. But because she allowed Mat so much time to not read the note. 30 days was way to long, she had to of known that they would be there within 30 days. Traveling the ways speeds things up a ton, and don't trollocs hate going into the ways?

 

Elayne taking most of her forces out of Caemlyn might be what saves it. If they had stayed, they probably would of been wiped out before they even knew what was going on. Now she will have those forces, plus Rand, plus other Aes Sedai, plus Perrin, plus probably other people at the meeting who Rand will order to help. Or Talmanes rallies all of the mercenaries outside Caemlyn and they save Caemlyn.

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I don't blame anyone. Because of Verin's actions, Talmanes is outside the city with the Band, which IMO is the best chance of their being a city at the end of the events. Had Verin not made Mat stay there as long as she did, he would have gone to the Tower sooner and the Band may have moved on. Was it perfect? No. But I think Verin did the best she could given what her options were as she couldn't straight out reveal shadow plans that were still brewing. Had Verin not done what she did, Andor would be without a capital city at all, as it stands there is a chance it isn't destroyed.

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I think the reason you don't remember it's because it's because it never happened. None of the Waygates have been destroyed. Rand last sent Elder Hamann to seal those he hasn't sealed himself. Nothing can destroy a Waygate except a full circle of 13 Aes Sedai. Before that Loial was sent to alert the Ogier leaders of the danger of the Waygates near steddings, and they agreed to watch them and guard them the Waygates, but those haven't been destroyed either.

Loial destroyed the one near manetheren. He said that they would need to regrow it, since he removed both leaves

That's not really destroying it, it's still there and Loial said "it will take the Elders or an Aes Sedai to open it" after he removed the leaves. Rand probably removed the leaves from the one in Caemlyn too, since he considered it sealed.

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Really if they can push the Trollocs back to the Waygate it should be really easy to defend the city. A few hundred archers can defend against anything coming out of a waygate, and hell, they can shoot arrows right the opening probably if necessary but they can also just lie in wait at an angle to the gate and pepper anything coming out. The gate is not big enough for more than one Trolloc at a time, and the cellar is not big enough for that many trollocs. I don't understand how the city wasn't alerted sooner as they'd have been spilling out into the road a few at a time. Well, that will never be dealt with in the books because they obviously didn't think about it. This is not like the gate in the Two Rivers where they could just constantly pour out in the middle of nowhere and therefor build up to a critical mass.

 

Anyway, I clicked Mat, though I won't bother reiterating my reasons, I already stated them in the Verin's letters thread.

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I have to say that I don't get why some folks are insistent on blaming Elayne. Rand was the one who supposedly made the Waygates safe and she trusted him. And yes, all the Waygates where Loial removed the leaves are about as "safe" as Caemlyn one, since the Shadow has channelers working for it and channelers can break through closed waygates and reverse their "dying", as the Ogier have told Rand.

Why Rand didn't chose to protect Caemlyn and Cahirien waygates in the same way as he did the Shadar Logoth one (only sans the delay on killing the Shadowspawn) is anybody's guess and he bloody well should feel himself responsible. Not that he didn't wasted lots of time brooding and practicing the sword in both of these locations.

Ditto, Rand is the one who wants all the troops assembled and sent to the Blight/SG. He was preparing this directly in KoD and TGS (viz his orders to Darlin, etc.) and indirectly through Egwene in ToM. Further, Elayne has Travelling and normally should be able to return quickly to defend her capital. Which is why I am fairly certain that Travelling around Caemlyn is going to be disabled one way or another during the attack. And Perrin didn't tell her about the dreamspike, IIRC.

 

Verin, well, we don't know under what exact strictures she was working. And her knowledge of Mat was seriously out of date, too.

 

Mat - anti-AS prejudice and paranoia are not an excuse. It is TG, for Pete's sake, and everybody needs to work together. Verin told him that conditions in the letter weren't onerous, so his reasons for not opening it were just rationalizations. Thankfully, Mat was finally able understand and empathize with Moiraine and see how sometimes less than direct action is unavoidable. Hopefully that will be the end of it.

 

P.S.:

 

I feel that Dreadlords from the BT + BAs were going to empty and ward the area around the waygate prior to the army's arrival, so that nobody would be able to react in time to bottle it in the basement.

Edited by Jeangray

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