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Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona


Luckers
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Really now? You would rather live in the anarchy of Murandy, the famine of Illian, the religious fanaticism of Amadicia, the feudalistic nightmare that is Cairhien, the apartheid state that is Far Madding or the crime haven that is Ebou Dar? You see, I personally would rather live in a stable and safe society where I can ensure the safety and welfare of my family. But that's just me and my definition of better place to live.

 

Far Madding is an "apartheid state" because it has an openly matriarchal society? Ebou Dar is a "crime haven" due to the Rahad being a bad part of town? On to Illian, yes their was famine but only because one of the FORSAKEN funneled all of the food to the military. This has since been rectified and is no longer pertinent. In Murandy the King may not have much power, local lords may bicker but we know the trade in Lugard always flourishes and "anarchy" is a huge exaggeration.

 

So in Seanchan controlled lands you can ensure the safety and welfare of your family? Just better hope they aren't born into slavery, or one of your daughters doesnt have the spark and is ripped out of your arms, ceasing to be human at fifteen. How is that ensuring the safety of your children? Oh yes and those pesky Seekers. Wouldn't want to be overheard voicing an opinion that runs counter to Seanchan beliefs now. You might just disappear in the middle of the night.

 

The one place I wouldn't want to live is Seandar. The heart of the Seanchan empire is in complete chaos right now, their belief system and government structure didn't help them one bit when Semirhage came calling.

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I love the Seanchan. They're very morally ambiguous, being at the same time a system who's unforgiving and has slavery and a system that allows free trade, regional autonomy and gives stability to the land. They're also very feminist, with equal opportunities in career to both men and women (even in the military). They're probably one of the best of RJ's creations.

 

Their society is incredibly detailed and has many similarites to the Ottoman Empire, the Chinese Empire and the Japanese Empire. Slaves there are both the hard-toiling guys who'd like to rebel and slaves of the state or slaves of the nobles, who're basically very powerful bureaucrats (like the mamluks, the janissaires or the eunuchs). Mamluks, janissaires and eunuchs never ended the slavery that created them, they just took power from the monarch and ruled in their place. The same thing is the most realistical goal possible with the Seanchan. Slavery isn't going to end out of the blue in that society, unless imposed by a much stronger foreign power. It'd take decades of reform (and the loss of prestige and power that actually demand any kind of reform) for slavery to completely end.

 

Also they have a completely different mentality than most other Randlanders, again kudos to RJ to how realistically he prortrays a set of values and how people are very adamant on not changing it. Telling a Seanchan that slavery is bad and has to end is like telling someone nowadays that eating meat is cruel to animals, who are raised in a cruel manner and die cruel deaths. It's true, but most people don't change their views just because of that (only a minority does).

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I too find the Seanchan a really fascinating people. Jordan did an amazing job in creating all the cultures he did, the most interesting of which are, to me, the Aiel and the Seanchan.

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I am sure that there are plenty of Real World examples of despicable people throughout history (several come to my mind but to be Politically Correct I will not give names). They all (or at least quite a few) could claim similar circumstances. i.e. "It's not my fault - it is the culture I was brought up in." "It's not my fault - they deserve it because they are Green." "It's not my fault - my mommy did not love me." "It's not my fault - everyone I know likes raping and killing people." "It's not my fault - my children were hungry." "It's not my fault - the buffalo hides were very valuable but I did not need the meat" "It's not my fault - they were just savages and I wanted the land" ...................... The list is endless, the actions, tell the true tale.

 

Almost, every real culture in the world has had its own evil deeds done - inquisitions, conquests, plundering whatever. That is the nature of the world. It is just part or what we humans are. Sometimes we learn and grow, sometimes not.

 

I guess that making excuses for these things, is just part of what we are as well.

 

Exactly. It takes a long time for someone (not to mention a society) to understand that something is wrong. Like the example I used above: raising animals to kill them to eat is wrong. Yet most people in most countries (except India) nowadays eat meat. People five hundred years from now will be asking "How did people back then let it happen? Didn't they know it was wrong? How despicable they were! Their government should be dismantled and replaced for letting such a terrible thing happen! Animals have rights too, how can't they understand how cruel those farms were?". Just like we do now when we think about slavery or serfdom two hundred years ago. Indoctrination takes a long time to disappear. Slave-free societies are a very recent development in Europe/the Americas.

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Exactly. It takes a long time for someone (not to mention a society) to understand that something is wrong. Like the example I used above: raising animals to kill them to eat is wrong. Yet most people in most countries (except India) nowadays eat meat. People five hundred years from now will be asking "How did people back then let it happen? Didn't they know it was wrong? How despicable they were! Their government should be dismantled and replaced for letting such a terrible thing happen! Animals have rights too, how can't they understand how cruel those farms were?". Just like we do now when we think about slavery or serfdom two hundred years ago. Indoctrination takes a long time to disappear. Slave-free societies are a very recent development in Europe/the Americas.

 

I'd be willing to bet your prognostication is wrong. Too bad niether of us will be alive to see.

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personally i think the Seanchan threat is not as great as everyone seems to think. "back home" the empire is in shambles. the royal family is dead. fractions are fighting for the pieces. same thing happened to alexander the great's empire. those in randland are cut off. true they are the best trained and probably the most numerous army. however they are cut off from reinforcements. even with traveling it would be next to impossible for tuon to restore order in time to do any good. people that have nothing to lose fight to the death. so the "rebel" leaders in seanchan will resist re-consoladation. they also have part of the same army they would be facing. so the enemy would adapt just as fast as tuon's forces did. it would come down to leadership. (she has the edge there in mat and you send your best generals into battle so she has most of those too. bad generals stay home with guard duty.) so effectively those that are in randland are all that are a problem. Rand bows to tuon then uses the seanchan to fight the trollocs. playing enemy 1 against enemy 2. trollocs have the numbers to counteract the training of the seanchans. whats left is sent home to re-take the empire. maybe a treaty with the randland nations to aid in retakeing the empire and sea folk coordinates for the land of madmen and shara. overall that power bloc is broken. the shaido are a broken power bloc too. that leaves the only real threat in the last battle.

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the seanchan are not interested in the last battle. they are interested in more invasions and more collaring of women. they need to be wiped out. shame tuon survives in the end

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the seanchan are not interested in the last battle. they are interested in more invasions and more collaring of women. they need to be wiped out. shame tuon survives in the end

The Seanchan's prophecies concerning Tarmon Gai'din say that "He (the Dragon) must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don or all is lost." That is why they feel they must force Rand to submit.
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The Seanchan's prophecies concerning Tarmon Gai'din say that "He (the Dragon) must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don or all is lost." That is why they feel they must force Rand to submit.

I'm sure that this has been said before - but it still applies. If Rand kneels to the Crystal Throne it would be to an "Imposter and a Murder" per the beginning of ToM.

 

He could kneel to the Nine Moons but the other prophacy does not say that. It says that he shall "Bind the Nine Moons to him. So somehow he will Bind Toun/Fortuona" to him. What better way that with a "Binder".

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The Seanchan's prophecies concerning Tarmon Gai'din say that "He (the Dragon) must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don or all is lost." That is why they feel they must force Rand to submit.

I'm sure that this has been said before - but it still applies. If Rand kneels to the Crystal Throne it would be to an "Imposter and a Murder" per the beginning of ToM.

 

He could kneel to the Nine Moons but the other prophacy does not say that. It says that he shall "Bind the Nine Moons to him. So somehow he will Bind Toun/Fortuona" to him. What better way that with a "Binder".

 

I think some distinction needs to be made here.

 

Technically, Fortuna declared herself Empress. She is the Crystal Throne. (metaphorically speaking)

 

It depends how you take the prophecy. As literal, or metaphorically.

 

If literal, then Rand bows to the actual throne in Seandar, which is a ter'angreal that inspires awe and reverance.

 

If you take it Metaphorically, Fortuna, the empress, IS the symbolic crystal throne. Thats how she sees it anyway.

 

The Empress = the Crystal Throne. Therefore, Rand must bow to her.

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I think some distinction needs to be made here.

 

Technically, Fortuna declared herself Empress. She is the Crystal Throne. (metaphorically speaking)

 

It depends how you take the prophecy. As literal, or metaphorically.

 

If literal, then Rand bows to the actual throne in Seandar, which is a ter'angreal that inspires awe and reverance.

 

If you take it Metaphorically, Fortuna, the empress, IS the symbolic crystal throne. Thats how she sees it anyway.

 

The Empress = the Crystal Throne. Therefore, Rand must bow to her.

 

I'm sure that whoever sits on the real throne would see it differently. Also, just because Toun thinks of it that way, does not make it correct.

In my view she already "sees" many things inforrectly, you are just adding another. Earlier she saw her helper count ants but apparently did not see the correct count. She sees (in her mind) Mat shaved and properly paper trained, but I do not think that that will happen. Maybe she just needs glasses?

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I think some distinction needs to be made here.

 

Technically, Fortuna declared herself Empress. She is the Crystal Throne. (metaphorically speaking)

 

It depends how you take the prophecy. As literal, or metaphorically.

 

If literal, then Rand bows to the actual throne in Seandar, which is a ter'angreal that inspires awe and reverance.

 

If you take it Metaphorically, Fortuna, the empress, IS the symbolic crystal throne. Thats how she sees it anyway.

 

The Empress = the Crystal Throne. Therefore, Rand must bow to her.

 

I'm sure that whoever sits on the real throne would see it differently. Also, just because Toun thinks of it that way, does not make it correct.

In my view she already "sees" many things inforrectly, you are just adding another. Earlier she saw her helper count ants but apparently did not see the correct count. She sees (in her mind) Mat shaved and properly paper trained, but I do not think that that will happen. Maybe she just needs glasses?

 

glasses indeed. I see what you are saying. There are two rulers of the Seanchan now. Who is the REAL Empress/emperor? I mean, even if the other is a traitor and murderer, they DO sit upon the Crystal Throne.

 

So yeah, I do understand what you are saying.

 

Thats why it wont come true. The Prophecy was tampered with by Ishamael. It isnt a real prophecy.

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When people talk about Fortuona being collared they have to remember as of now it would not work. She either would have to spend much longer working with Damane or make a conscious decision to channel first. There is not really time for the first and the second would take a seachange in her current belief system.

I'm not sure about this, might have to go back and check, but hadn't Tuon already spent at least a few years training damane prior to meeting Mat? Also, I don't think it matters if she has tried to channel in terms of whether the a'dam would work on her. Renna and Seta hadn't tried at the time when they were both collared and left to be discovered in that basement.

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something [Winter's Heart Ch. 8].

 

Why it matters is Fortuona is a learner and hasn't spent enough time working with the A'Dam, hence the only way she could be collared is if she consciously decides to learn how to channel. Training damane was a hobby for Tuon, Renna and Seta as Suldam did it for a career working almost constantly.

RJ has stated that as of KoD she hasn't worked enough with the power.

 

I know that people have said this, but no one seems to be able to quote chapter and verse.

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Vastly "freer?" Seeing the world through tinted glasses now aren't we? Precisely how is Andor more free when it's society is so strictly rooted in classism that it's nigh impossible to forward oneself in life.

Nigh impossible? Have you actually read the books? Because most of the ordinary Andorans we've met seem to be middle class merchants and entrepreneurs. I can't see how you could possibly claim that they can't "forward" themselves.

 

 

Among the Seanchan at least it's possible and compared to other nations more commonplace to raise commoners to the blood. In Cairhien this would be an anathema and even in Andor it's unheard of prior to Perrin, who also only managed it through force of arms.

Except, of course, that there's no evidence that it's common to rise in life in Seanchan outside of the military.

 

 

 

Quite not. The Seanchan don't fulfill any principle of fascism. They're a monarchy for crying out loud.

Much like, say, Fascist Italy. And don't forget that Spain's Generalísimo Franco's plan for succession after his death was the restoration of the monarchy under Juan Carlos I.

 

 

I am really starting to doubt that you even know what exactly entails fascism, because it's certainly not a hereditary monarchy.

Except that apparently it can be.

 

 

Also on the second point you're not quite right either. What you're referring to is collectivism which is a hallmark of communist, nationalist, fascist, socialist and feudal thought. Individualism and the "pursuit for happiness" to name an example are rooted in libertarianism and find their roots in the liberal revolutions that raged through the European continent between the Imperial and Industrial age. The concept of the welfare of all being superior to the welfare of the individual, what you're referring to, is much more ancient then fascism. Even more interesting is that this elevation of the State didn't even find its apex in the fascist movement. If one had to choose a nation which most zealously lived out such ideals it would have to be the bolshevist communists under the USSR.

If you can't get basic facts right, you can't really argue this point.

 

 

Really now? You would rather live in the anarchy of Murandy,

A wealthy trading nation that, judging by the comments about Murandians calling themselves by their cities, was apparently governed by small local governments, and stable enough that people there were perfectly able to make their living.

 

If you call it "anarchy" because the central government is weak, you might as well say the same for Switzerland. Your fetish for a single authoritarian centralized power is showing.

 

 

the famine of Illian,

Illian wasn't in famine before the events surrounding the Dragon's rebirth. The fair comparison to the famine of Illian would be living in the midst of the empire-encompassing civil war that is Seanchan.

 

 

the religious fanaticism of Amadicia,

Nope, I already said I wouldn't want to live there.

 

 

the feudalistic nightmare that is Cairhien,

Wouldn't be my first choice, but then, if I were a regular person I probably wouldn't be worried too much about the political machinations of the royal houses, either.

 

 

the apartheid state that is Far Madding

Nope. It's true, a very small percentage of the Westlands is living in societies that are arguably worse than Seanchan.

 

 

or the crime haven that is Ebou Dar?

Crime haven? It was said that part of the city was pretty rough but since that's true of most big cities in the world today, I'm not seeing it as a dealbreaker.

 

 

You see, I personally would rather live in a stable and safe society where I can ensure the safety and welfare of my family.

Commit a crime, see your children and their descendents enslaved permanently, or fail to bow at the wrong time when a member of the High Blood is being carried by on their sedan chair. Yep, sounds safe to me.

 

 

But that's just me and my definition of better place to live.

It's a pretty weird one, dude.

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I know that people have said this, but no one seems to be able to quote chapter and verse.

 

Agreed - RJ said that "four months, for example, wouldn't be enough", with no mention to Tuon in particular. We haven't been given a specific cut off point, and I'd expect the cut off would vary with things like time spent "complete" and potential, but I'm fairly sure Tuon trained damane for more than four months and probably into a couple of years.

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... don't know if anyone has the same issue with 'Fortuona', but I just don't like Tuons new name. Aside from that she's fine :smile: .

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... don't know if anyone has the same issue with 'Fortuona', but I just don't like Tuons new name. Aside from that she's fine :smile: .

 

No idea if you know or not but a guy named Deadsy (pretty sure he post on these forums at times) did a fan fiction and posted it on Wheel of Time messageboards and well....not going to say anymore about it except advise you to read it. You might like it and personally, I found it to be a brilliant piece of fan fiction.

 

My link

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Agreed - RJ said that "four months, for example, wouldn't be enough", with no mention to Tuon in particular. We haven't been given a specific cut off point, and I'd expect the cut off would vary with things like time spent "complete" and potential, but I'm fairly sure Tuon trained damane for more than four months and probably into a couple of years.

 

I think that it is stated in the text that only after years of being "linked" that some Sul'dam are able to "see the weaves". We know that Tuon is at least this far along. Again from the text.

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Quite not. The Seanchan don't fulfill any principle of fascism. They're a monarchy for crying out loud.

Much like, say, Fascist Italy. And don't forget that Spain's Generalísimo Franco's plan for succession after his death was the restoration of the monarchy under Juan Carlos I.

 

 

I am really starting to doubt that you even know what exactly entails fascism, because it's certainly not a hereditary monarchy.

Except that apparently it can be.

 

 

I like seanchan, but their society fulfils a lot of "fascism" definition. But IMHO this doesn't mean seanchan are fascist. would you define japan empire fascist?

you guys really like that word, don't you? ;)

i'd call it totalitarianism, maybe

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The Crystal Throne has never been stated or implied as a title for the Empress/Emperor. The Empress being the Empire yes or the Nine Moons, but not the Throne. With the exception of the Amrylin Seat, which is clearly stated as both, it's always the Empress is the Empire or the King is the Kingdom, not a throne or crown or the like.

 

No where else in any prophecies is an object or land stated so explicitly as what's to occur. It's blade that cannot be touched, People of the Dragon, slay them with the Leaf etc. Not Callandor, Aiel or drive them away by telling them they were followers of the Way of the Leaf. Heck, even the non-corrupted Seanchan prophecies are about the Wolf King and his hammer or Prince of Ravens, not the name of Perrin's hammer or the like.

 

Unfortunately Rand will give the Seanchan and Aes Sedai some sop instead of binding Egwene and Tuon both with an Oath Rod to stop doing a better job for the Shadow then any of the Forsaken have done in the whole series.

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Think of the history of the Apaches/ Zulu versus modern armies if you want real world examples.

 

The Romans never conquered Scotland. In fact no one ever has through military means. We're just too strong, too smart and too bloody patriotic. I see the Aiel as being Scottish, they've even got Gingers.

 

I think what Avi saw was more of a parable..... Or like Scrooge,s visions. Not really seeing it as a warning about specific events but of the dangers of not moving on and developing a culture that looks forwards not backwards. When I say parable I'm referring to the idea that the message was not the actual events in the story but their implicit moral (etc) meanings. In this case it's screaming at the Aiel simply to start looking forwards for the first time ever.

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... don't know if anyone has the same issue with 'Fortuona', but I just don't like Tuons new name. Aside from that she's fine :smile: .

 

No idea if you know or not but a guy named Deadsy (pretty sure he post on these forums at times) did a fan fiction and posted it on Wheel of Time messageboards and well....not going to say anymore about it except advise you to read it. You might like it and personally, I found it to be a brilliant piece of fan fiction.

 

My link

 

jah, it's damn well written for a fan fiction. He/she even had the characters right at most times, very well done.

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Agreed - RJ said that "four months, for example, wouldn't be enough", with no mention to Tuon in particular. We haven't been given a specific cut off point, and I'd expect the cut off would vary with things like time spent "complete" and potential, but I'm fairly sure Tuon trained damane for more than four months and probably into a couple of years.

Plus, she may well have done MORE training of damane than most sul'dam. When Renna first collars Egwene, she mentions that many sul'dam will train her, and that sul'dam rarely get the pleasure of being "complete", because they outnumber damane so much. The Daughter of the Nine Moons probably gets to spend as much time training damane as she wants, which, since she seems to enjoy it may mean it's a lot. Plus, her skill at it may bespeak having had a lot of practice.

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DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something [Winter's Heart Ch. 8].

 

Why it matters is Fortuona is a learner and hasn't spent enough time working with the A'Dam, hence the only way she could be collared is if she consciously decides to learn how to channel. Training damane was a hobby for Tuon, Renna and Seta as Suldam did it for a career working almost constantly.

RJ has stated that as of KoD she hasn't worked enough with the power.

 

I know that people have said this, but no one seems to be able to quote chapter and verse.

 

You may be right about the quote. Swore I read it once but I have been searching and not able to locate. Spoke with Luckers about it though and this is what he had to say.

 

I know of no quote, but Tuon would have been tested annually with the a'dam up until she became Empress. In addition, sul'dam are tested till twenty-four--no learner tests positive in that time, so Tuon, who practises as a sul'dam as a hobby definately wouldn't.

 

I actually asked Brandon whether Tuon was still tested based on your PM, and he said that as Empress she can do whatever she wants--i.e. not be tested. She may yet be a sparker.

 

So if Sul'dam are tested till 24 and no learner tests positive in that time, Tuon who does this as a hobby still has four years to go even to reach the point. As for the rest guess we will have to wait and see...

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