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I don't say egwene did nothing in the series, but her performance in this book was pathetic. By her actions and what we can see inside her head, she was focused on consolidating her power base far more than any care about the world at large.
How can she lead in Tarmon Gai'don without a unified and whole Tower behind her? Demandred was focused on doing the same, wherever he is. "My rule is secure. I gather for war." Before you can enter the battle, you mus consolidate both your power and soldiers. King Roedran of Murandy is an example of this, as is what Rand is doing at Merrilor.

 

E.g. she gets 2 reports within 5 minutes of each other - the borderlands are being overrun....does nothing. Then, a couple of pages later - the hall is meeting...runs there with a fully prepared and fleshed out plan on how to counter their political ploys.

Like I said before, she has to consolidate and unify the Tower behind her before she can move first.
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And no, Rand isn't my favourite character. My list goes Mat = Moiraine > Birgitte > Rand > Min.

Let's see. Rand's best friend who hasn't challenged him in any way since about the second book in the series, the formerly strong woman who finally humbled herself before Rand, someone who's barely met Rand, Rand, and the woman who gives Rand unequivocal support in everything he does.

 

Yeah, you have no problem with people who stand up to Rand at all, do you?

 

What's with your fixation on Rand and rating all characters based upon their relationship to him? Matt is many peoples favorites because of his own accomplishments and personality, not because of anything to do with Rand. Moraine was beloved because she always did what was right and only "humbled" herself because she saw that she could manipulate Rand better that way (i.e. she was intelligent in the way she accomplished her goals). etc, etc.

 

I get it that you are looking to defend Egwene by repeating my 4-year-old's mantra of "well, i'm bad, but he's WORSE", but that's not really an effective argument to make in general. And, even so, the argument that Rand's many accomplishments in this book to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon are in any way comparable to Egwene's complete lack of focus on the Last Battle (and her heavy focus on White Tower politics) is just laughable.

 

I don't say egwene did nothing in the series, but her performance in this book was pathetic. By her actions and what we can see inside her head, she was focused on consolidating her power base far more than any care about the world at large.

 

E.g. she gets 2 reports within 5 minutes of each other - the borderlands are being overrun....does nothing. Then, a couple of pages later - the hall is meeting...runs there with a fully prepared and fleshed out plan on how to counter their political ploys.

 

I just want to comment on this for a moment. What with so many points being brought up, I've just flipped through TofM to make sure that I haven't been saying things that were untrue. To that end, there are a lot of times when Egwene refers to the Last Battle. Also- it is hardly fair to say that Egwene does nothing after she hears the report of the Borderlands. She immediately asks her Keeper to check with the Blue Ajah (who has a better network then anyone else which is also stated in the book) to confirm it. 2 pages later- yes, she goes to deal with the Hall. 2 pages which may as well have been maybe.....5 minutes? She tells the Hall when its together maybe........30 minutes later? After shes given up the armies? She states in her POV when shes speaking to Rand in the beginning that she cannot think of him just as a danger- that she is quite possibly one of the only Aes Sedai (besides Nynaeve) who really knows who he was in the beginning. As for her countering the Hall- well, seeing as the Hall hasnt really come up with anything really new to try to go behind her back with it really isnt that hard for her to deal with that. And she does make the manipulating come to a halt by having them stand for her proposal which should limit the backbiting even more. All she has is the White Tower- she needs her sisters to be united and the politics with them to stop. Its far better to have a solid foundation beneath you while you try to plan anything. Otherwise, you may find it crumble (and god knows, the Aes Sedai has done that before with previous Amyrlins.) just when you need it most. Its the same that any leader in the book would have done.

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I am anti-Egwene and I will agree with you here - I'm not going to argue with Alia's post because he/she made some very reasonable points. I might nit pick a minor detail here or there (Example - justifying Egwene's treatment of Nynaeve in TAR because it was Nynaeve "needed it" or because she was "teaching" her; this would be OK if the basis behind it was intended to actually teach Nynaeve rather than just covering up Egwene's own lies. I won't give credit to Egwene for a mildly beneficial unintended side-effect for an action that was completely negative.) but for the most part I don't really disagree with any of it. I can dislike Egwene while still being aware that she has positive attributes and accomplishments. If you look a few posts above you will even find me defending her plan to tie the channeling groups together.

 

However, you will also notice that Alia's post points out that Egwene has her faults and is not perfect. These faults are enough to make her a pretty unsympathetic character to me. One that I wouldn't really want to be friends with. I won't go into all these faults (arrogance, hypocrisy, easily swayed loyalties, etc.) in detail because that has been done previously in this thread. I will just note that just like you expect the anti-Egwene people to acknowledge her positives, I would expect the pro-Egwene people to be able to acknowledge that she has faults. For me personally, those faults make her more unlikable than her positives make her likable. That's just personal preference.

 

This is exactly what I was saying, you won't argue against the post because you don't rely on hatred towards Egwene for the basis of your arguments. Also, randsc, I can hardly count your post as I've seen several good rebuttals within the first five pages, notably TheAngryDruid and k3vlar. Then another 30 pages of mostly pointless arguments with a few good ones every now and then. Anyways, Alia's post is effectively a counterargument towards your first page one so I kind of counted you out on this one. (I was looking at the users who have just been repeating you as proof of why they hate Egwene)

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It is true that the lack of help for the Borderlands is a failing of the White Tower as a whole, not just Egwene. The fact that the Blues DID have knowledge of the invasion and hadn't bothered to share it is disgraceful. Can't let the end of the freakin' world interfere with Ajah politics and manuevering for advantage!

 

That said, Egwene could certainly have done more. Fel's point, which is entirely fair, is that even after everyone involved in the meeting knew of the invasion, and the likely fall of the nations which had stood as a bulwark against the Shadow for centuries, the agenda didn't change. For any of them, including Egwene.

 

I really hope that Rand restores to Mattin Stepanos the throne of Illian, so that Rand is no longer a monarch and Egwene, as a result of her own scheming, is sidelined.

 

Alas, it will probably not happen.

Edited by randsc
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Rand himself has pretty much made it plain that he and a few others are supposed to deal with the Dark One; everyone else needs to defeat the Trollocs etc etc and sort out what's going on - while Rand's going to be laying down a few guidelines which he'll get most people to agree to (the Dragon's Peace) the organisation of the world is going to be down to people like Elayne and Egwene. Elayne says that she has to assume that the Light will win the last battle in order to achieve and plan for anything at all; why should Egwene behave differently? As she has delegated the army to the Hall, Rand has for the most part delegated the world to the rulers, which like her or not includes Egwene.

She's spent an awful lot of time acquiring power, now it's time to see what she does with it, even if shee isn't the particularly likeable.

This is somewhat like the Seanchan argument - no one in the series is perfect, and most of the powerful ones are pretty damn arrogant.

Edited by AvroChris
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I really hope that Rand restores to Mattin Stepanos the throne of Illian, so that Rand is no longer a monarch and Egwene, as a result of her own scheming, is sidelined.

 

Alas, it will probably not happen.

Would you rather anyone but Egwene deal with him? Last time, Rand was put into a box and beaten I believe.
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I really hope that Rand restores to Mattin Stepanos the throne of Illian, so that Rand is no longer a monarch and Egwene, as a result of her own scheming, is sidelined.

 

Alas, it will probably not happen.

Would you rather anyone but Egwene deal with him? Last time, Rand was put into a box and beaten I believe.

 

 

Nope, last time the other Aes Sedai were completely swept up in his ta'veren web, and couldn't even bring themselves to speak in opposition.

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The notion Moirane is a "formerly" strong woman is, IMO, pretty outrageous.

 

Finally ceasing to attmept to control the life and actions of another does not make one a weak person. It makes one a person who respects the autonomy of others.

 

Repsecting the autonomy of others is, of course, not a trait much valued by the Aes Sedai as a whole. So perhaps Moirane is no longer a strong Aes Sedai. Which just makes me agree even more with Rand and Nynaeve's assessment that the best Aes Sedai are the ones that don't act in a way the Aes Sedai consider, "proper."

 

But Moraine is a strong person, either way.

You're right, that's fair. However, it's not surprising that the Rand fanboys tend to like her so much, given her servile attitude. I'm not saying I don't like her, mind, and she DID treat him and the other boys badly at times -- and I do think it was the only thing that would have worked in her circumstance. I just think it's telling that all of his favorite characters are people who aren't likely to challenge Rand.

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Nope, last time the other Aes Sedai were completely swept up in his ta'veren web, and couldn't even bring themselves to speak in opposition.

Did that change their perception of him or simply only reinforce it?
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Nope, last time the other Aes Sedai were completely swept up in his ta'veren web, and couldn't even bring themselves to speak in opposition.

Did that change their perception of him or simply only reinforce it?

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. They would have been on board, which is all that does matter.

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it does not matter whether egwene or the aes sedai suddenly renounce their positions and choose to be nuns overnight. Unless they are seen as grovelling lapdogs like how moraine turned out to be in the end, they will always be disliked.

 

Just imagine if jordan started this series from the age of legends and not 3000 years later. There would similar cries of look wtf is latra doing? she's opposing the lord dragon! The light is going to lose! she's an arrogant so and so.

 

Ofcourse we all know what would have happened if latra agreed to lTT's mad plan in the end.

 

perhaps if rand explained how would he go about sealing the bore then the aes sedai might be inclined to join him rather than simply asking them to trust him. But we all know he has no plan right now. He's relying on min at the moment and until ofcourse moraine turns up to save the day

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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I really hope that Rand restores to Mattin Stepanos the throne of Illian, so that Rand is no longer a monarch and Egwene, as a result of her own scheming, is sidelined.

 

Alas, it will probably not happen.

Would you rather anyone but Egwene deal with him? Last time, Rand was put into a box and beaten I believe.

 

 

Nope, last time the other Aes Sedai were completely swept up in his ta'veren web, and couldn't even bring themselves to speak in opposition.

 

Which should raise the question, Why was Egwene completely untouched by this? She did not even notice rand was in full ta'veren-mode until the other Aes Sedai told her.

Could it be that she is on the track the Pattern needs her to be, and thus it can not allow Rand to mess with her?

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I really hope that Rand restores to Mattin Stepanos the throne of Illian, so that Rand is no longer a monarch and Egwene, as a result of her own scheming, is sidelined.

 

Alas, it will probably not happen.

Would you rather anyone but Egwene deal with him? Last time, Rand was put into a box and beaten I believe.

 

 

Nope, last time the other Aes Sedai were completely swept up in his ta'veren web, and couldn't even bring themselves to speak in opposition.

 

Which should raise the question, Why was Egwene completely untouched by this? She did not even notice rand was in full ta'veren-mode until the other Aes Sedai told her.

Could it be that she is on the track the Pattern needs her to be, and thus it can not allow Rand to mess with her?

 

I tend to think that Rand was allowed to "mess with her."

 

Ta'veren bend the threads of the Pattern around them. If what Rand needs from Egwene is to gather the armies of the world for him, his ta'veren nature could actually have caused her to act exactly as she did.

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I really hope that Rand restores to Mattin Stepanos the throne of Illian, so that Rand is no longer a monarch and Egwene, as a result of her own scheming, is sidelined.

 

Alas, it will probably not happen.

Would you rather anyone but Egwene deal with him? Last time, Rand was put into a box and beaten I believe.

 

 

Nope, last time the other Aes Sedai were completely swept up in his ta'veren web, and couldn't even bring themselves to speak in opposition.

 

Which should raise the question, Why was Egwene completely untouched by this? She did not even notice rand was in full ta'veren-mode until the other Aes Sedai told her.

Could it be that she is on the track the Pattern needs her to be, and thus it can not allow Rand to mess with her?

 

"Egwene raised a hand to her head, feeling dizzy." ... "Egwene frowned. She hadn't felt that way. Perhaps because she thought of him as Rand."

 

Egwene was under ta'veren influence, she's just the only one who was unaware of it. It is clear that she believes she completely escaped the effect.

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it does not matter whether egwene or the aes sedai suddenly renounce their positions and choose to be nuns overnight. Unless they are seen as grovelling lapdogs like how moraine turned out to be in the end, they will always be disliked.

 

Is that really how you see her? She tried to bully Rand into doing what she wanted. That didn't work and he did whatever he wanted without listening to her advice or running his ideas by her. So she changed tactics to appearing servile to Rand which gained his trust and allowed her advice to be listened to and for her to be privy to his plans. Thus, gaining what she wanted all along (admittedly with less influence that she would have liked, but you take what you can get). All she did was change tactics from one that didn't work to one that did. That's not being a laptop, that's good strategy.

 

Both Egwene and Mat note that Moiraine appears to have regained influence over Rand and that Rand doesn't even seem to notice this. Hardly grovelling.

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What's with your fixation on Rand and rating all characters based upon their relationship to him? Matt is many peoples favorites because of his own accomplishments and personality, not because of anything to do with Rand. Moraine was beloved because she always did what was right and only "humbled" herself because she saw that she could manipulate Rand better that way (i.e. she was intelligent in the way she accomplished her goals). etc, etc.

The fixation isn't on my part. It's just clear that over and over a certain segment of the fan-base is comically and excessively outraged by any character who doesn't defer to Rand in everything he does. Look at all the people saying things like "He's LEWS THERIN and he's a TA'VEREN and HOW DARE YOU TRY TO INTERFERE WITH HIM." It's ridiculous.

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wow exy that one statement right there kinda just made me ignore your arguements for anything because its just saying "their a rand fanboy, their opinion doesnt matter when it comes to other characters"

 

 

I thought we had solved the problem of people saying that long ago by pointing out we keep coming up with valid reasons to dislike/hate egwene which have very little to do with personnal opinion or other characters personalities for that matter

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What's with your fixation on Rand and rating all characters based upon their relationship to him? Matt is many peoples favorites because of his own accomplishments and personality, not because of anything to do with Rand. Moraine was beloved because she always did what was right and only "humbled" herself because she saw that she could manipulate Rand better that way (i.e. she was intelligent in the way she accomplished her goals). etc, etc.

The fixation isn't on my part. It's just clear that over and over a certain segment of the fan-base is comically and excessively outraged by any character who doesn't defer to Rand in everything he does. Look at all the people saying things like "He's LEWS THERIN and he's a TA'VEREN and HOW DARE YOU TRY TO INTERFERE WITH HIM." It's ridiculous.

 

you have to remember that these guys started the egwene backlash when TOM was released. During knife of dreams egwene's struggle in tower was praised by all and sundry.

 

Then in TGS she was said to be badass destroying the seanchan. Even her dislikers had grudging respect for her.

Now TOM has been released and all of sudden a cacophony of howling and anger has been unleashed. Connect the dots and you will see why. All this arrogance BS and hypocrisy issue is besides the point. Just a smokescreen.

 

People now are hoping that she either gets taken down by the seanchan of all people. That group which epitomises humility and peace :rolleyes: or by shock suprise by rand in FOM :rolleyes: Now some are hoping she fixes herself or in non political terms learns to shut the $£"£ up and do as she is told.

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I really hope that Rand restores to Mattin Stepanos the throne of Illian, so that Rand is no longer a monarch and Egwene, as a result of her own scheming, is sidelined.

 

Alas, it will probably not happen.

Would you rather anyone but Egwene deal with him? Last time, Rand was put into a box and beaten I believe.

 

 

Nope, last time the other Aes Sedai were completely swept up in his ta'veren web, and couldn't even bring themselves to speak in opposition.

 

I've never understood why people don't see the obvious flaw in Egwene's plan. Rand, may be the King of Illian but that doesn't mean Egwene gets exclusive rights to deal with the dragon reborn. While they are physically the same person they are entirely separate roles. Egwene gets the right to deal with rand in regards to Illian but his role as the dragon reborn can still be dealt with by the Hall.

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What's with your fixation on Rand and rating all characters based upon their relationship to him? Matt is many peoples favorites because of his own accomplishments and personality, not because of anything to do with Rand. Moraine was beloved because she always did what was right and only "humbled" herself because she saw that she could manipulate Rand better that way (i.e. she was intelligent in the way she accomplished her goals). etc, etc.

The fixation isn't on my part. It's just clear that over and over a certain segment of the fan-base is comically and excessively outraged by any character who doesn't defer to Rand in everything he does. Look at all the people saying things like "He's LEWS THERIN and he's a TA'VEREN and HOW DARE YOU TRY TO INTERFERE WITH HIM." It's ridiculous.

I don't get that from most of the people arguing against Egwene's performance here. They, in general, seem to be arguing that she has taken her eye off the ball of the Last Battle and is, instead, working on Aes Sedai issues to the exclusion of all else.

 

As I've said, Rand does not seem to have much of a plan, but he is at least thinking about it and using his sole trusted resources (min and cadsuane) to try to figure it out. Egwene, with the most extensive library in the world and 2 full ajahs dedicated to learning/figuring stuff out, does not seem to have given much thought at all to the question of what to do about the Dark One. Instead, she is concentrating on how to raise armies against Rand (which I can't even fathom what good that is supposed to do other than trying to tie those armies under her banner? Does she think the armies will attack the dragon?) and internal White Tower political battles.

 

I liked Egwene in the past few books and thought she had come far and finally grown up a bit, but this one was very disappointing and seemed a return to her previous, highly flawed character.

 

To downplay that by assuming some random motive about people loving Rand to the exclusion of anyone who disagrees with him ignores the arguments and is just incorrect. Personally, I have not been a fan of Rand for a while and have loved the sub-plots with all the other characters far more...but I do dislike Egwene.

 

For the argument that she must consolidate her base before doing anything, i think she could be much more effective than that. She has been shown to be quite capable at many times in the series and I would think that she could have both worked the political angles and prepared for the Last Battle at the same time (in fact, constantly focusing on the upcoming last battle and ordering people to prepare would be a quite effective way of winning the political battles by highlighting the need for urgent decision making in a crisis). She just does not seem to feel any urgency to address the impending end of the world.

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Gah, someone lock this thread. It is pointless.

 

Both sides are blind in their love/hatered. A bunch of whining children.

 

Get over it, people like Egwene, thats their buisiness.

 

And to the other side, get over it, alot of people hate her.

 

Stop trying to bash/defend her and discredit the other side. Its foolish.

 

you either suffer from a hate complex. Or a love complex.

 

Get over it.

 

She has faults like every character in the series.

 

Some people hate her because of the faults. Some people love her despite them.

 

Thats all there is too say.

 

Egwene haters. Rand played her like a flute in ToM, its not her fault, shes doing whatever she feels she needs.

 

Egwene lovers. She aint a saint. If you think shes perfect, your delusional, nobody is perfect. She screws up all the time, just like every other character.

 

Seriously, somebody needs to lock this thread.

 

It had decended into people saying

 

"oh, your a Rand fanboy"

 

or

 

"oh, your a feminist/ Egwene Lover."

 

God people. I thought this was supposed to be constructive. But it is clearly childish to the extreme.

 

Dont bother whinging at this post, I no longer care to follow it. Continue the pointlessness all you like, im sick of it.

 

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

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Long time lurker 1st time poster.

So 1st I'm gonna add one more thing to the WE HATE EGWENE BECAUSE...list

I'm not sure of it's mentioned but it's been bugging me for a while. Imagine what would have happened if while in TAR in the White Tower Egwene just wasn't there for Perrin to see. He would have almost certanly made it to Hopper/Slayer in time, which could have actually finished with Slayer getting slayed and Hopper hopping around in TAR eternally. Now I know this consists of lots of "ifs" but hell...because of Egwene Perrin couldn't intercept Slayer in time - their tactic got screwed.

EDIT:misplaced words...

EDIT2:some more of those.

Edited by BananaOnDrugs
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Long time lurker 1st time poster.

So 1st I'm gonna add one more thing to the WE HATE EGWENE BECAUSE...list

I'm not sure of it's mentioned but it's been bugging me for a while. Imagine what would have happened if while in TAR in the White Tower Egwene just wasn't there for Perrin to see. He would have almost certanly made it to Hopper/Slayer in time, which could have actually finished with Slayer getting slayed and Hopper hopping around in TAR eternally. Now I know this consists of lots of "ifs" but hell...because of Egwene Perrin couldn't intercept Slayer in time - their tactic got screwed.

EDIT:misplaced words...

EDIT2:some more of those.

 

For real? You hate Egwene because Perrin happened to show up in the White Tower with the Dreamspike when he could have just as well ended up anywhere else in TAR? There *are* a LOT of ifs in that. What if, say, Perrin saved Hopper but then died himself? What if Egwene lost to Mesaana because Perrin hadnt reminded her of what TAR's basics really were? Then, the Amyrlin herself would have been a toy in the hands of a Forsaken. Hopper chose to help Perrin- he followed Perrin even after Perrin tried to lose him. Hopper wasn't sad when he died- he had done what he had set out to do. Teach Perrin. He also was able to tell Perrin that he was ready to know, finally, about why Perrin doesn't have to fear turning into a wolf. It was a sad thing (I bawled my eyes out), but really? Don't blame Egwene for someone evil killing someone good.

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For real? You hate Egwene because Perrin happened to show up in the White Tower with the Dreamspike when he could have just as well ended up anywhere else in TAR? There *are* a LOT of ifs in that. What if, say, Perrin saved Hopper but then died himself? What if Egwene lost to Mesaana because Perrin hadnt reminded her of what TAR's basics really were? Then, the Amyrlin herself would have been a toy in the hands of a Forsaken. Hopper chose to help Perrin- he followed Perrin even after Perrin tried to lose him. Hopper wasn't sad when he died- he had done what he had set out to do. Teach Perrin. He also was able to tell Perrin that he was ready to know, finally, about why Perrin doesn't have to fear turning into a wolf. It was a sad thing (I bawled my eyes out), but really? Don't blame Egwene for someone evil killing someone good.

To be honest...oh forget it I should like...think a little.

Anyways I don't care how stupid it sounds when Perrin and Egwene met in TAR even though a part of me was enjoying the awesomeness the bigger part of me couldn't help but scream PERRIN STOP DOING EGWENE'S JOB AND GO HELP HOPPER...I mean...ohh I just want Hopper hopping...the others can go darkfriend as far as I care as long as he can hop.

He is the Creater you know...

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