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Who the fuck IS helping the Borderlands? Rand making a brief stop off and (at least temporarily) saving Maradon is not exactly solving the problem. Why isn't this his responsibility?

 

This was such a hilarious fail I couldn't help but point it out.

 

Rand gathers Ituralde and gets him into the Borderlands to assist in holding off the invasion of trollocs.

Rand brings Bashere and his army to Maradon.

Rand sees the courage and light in the men at Maradon and decides they've done enough. He then proceeds to risk everything to save them and wipes out 'hundreds of thousands' (that is a quote) of trollocs.

Rand meets the utterly stupid Borderlanders who thought to meet Rand they needed to bring just about every single soldier in the Borderlands with them, risking all of humanity. He basically humbles himself in front of these utter idiots in an attempt to have those armies back up in the Borderlands to keep the invasion from coming south too soon.

Rand did all this whilst juggling The White Tower, the nations of the world, the Forsaken, cleansing of the taint (I can't remember if this came before he got Ituralde or not), restoring Bandar Eban or Ebou Dar (I forgot), bubbles of evil, his own sanity and more.

 

What did Egwene do? Nothing at all to help the Borderlands.

 

 

You sir just failed.

 

And no, Rand isn't my favourite character. My list goes Mat = Moiraine > Birgitte > Rand > Min.

 

That has already been accounted for. They are NO LONGER HER RESPONSIBILITY. Due to the motion passed by the Hall in this very book, they are the Hall's responsibility. So....

 

I'm afraid to say that your fail failed.

I believe the Kings and Queens of Randland are, in fact, her responsibility. Any assistance would surely have to go through them first? Motion to fail a fail... has failed.

 

Aes Sedai are not subject to Kings and Queens. So, no, that argument doesn't work.

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Who the fuck IS helping the Borderlands? Rand making a brief stop off and (at least temporarily) saving Maradon is not exactly solving the problem. Why isn't this his responsibility?

 

This was such a hilarious fail I couldn't help but point it out.

 

Rand gathers Ituralde and gets him into the Borderlands to assist in holding off the invasion of trollocs.

Rand brings Bashere and his army to Maradon.

Rand sees the courage and light in the men at Maradon and decides they've done enough. He then proceeds to risk everything to save them and wipes out 'hundreds of thousands' (that is a quote) of trollocs.

Rand meets the utterly stupid Borderlanders who thought to meet Rand they needed to bring just about every single soldier in the Borderlands with them, risking all of humanity. He basically humbles himself in front of these utter idiots in an attempt to have those armies back up in the Borderlands to keep the invasion from coming south too soon.

Rand did all this whilst juggling The White Tower, the nations of the world, the Forsaken, cleansing of the taint (I can't remember if this came before he got Ituralde or not), restoring Bandar Eban or Ebou Dar (I forgot), bubbles of evil, his own sanity and more.

 

What did Egwene do? Nothing at all to help the Borderlands.

 

 

You sir just failed.

 

And no, Rand isn't my favourite character. My list goes Mat = Moiraine > Birgitte > Rand > Min.

 

That has already been accounted for. They are NO LONGER HER RESPONSIBILITY. Due to the motion passed by the Hall in this very book, they are the Hall's responsibility. So....

 

I'm afraid to say that your fail failed.

I believe the Kings and Queens of Randland are, in fact, her responsibility. Any assistance would surely have to go through them first? Motion to fail a fail... has failed.

 

Aes Sedai are not subject to Kings and Queens. So, no, that argument doesn't work.

 

I think you misunderstand.

 

Aes Sedai cant just take over entire armies. They would need to negotiate with the monarchs to reinforce and defend. I think the poster is refering to the 200,000 boderlanders hunting down Rand, and how she "should" (up for debate) have gone to them and did what Rand did. Told them to get their asses back to their homes.

 

Note: I am netural on Egwene. Even though she is my least favorite main character (behind perhaps tuon) I dont particularly "hate" her. I can understand her and dont think she is particularly "bad". She has done alot of good. I just think she needs an attitude check.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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People forget that Rand is Tavern. So he gets a lot of help from the pattern. What I especially like about Jordan's writing isn't about how awesome each character is, but about the way the forge alliances and to some effect, manipulate people around them into a single unit. Egwene, may seems like a prideful girl to some. But, honestly she's sacrificed her own personal happiness in favor of the Aes Sedai as a whole. Also, she gained the support of the Aiel, the Kinsfolk, and the Waveriders on her own terms. Well, on terms that are a compromise between the groups. Egwene even facilitates cross training between the groups.

And if you read my "Rand" posts, I'd argue that Rand is still in the grips of his taint madness, and maybe Egwene may have to if not completely challenge Rand, at least influence his decision. To me, the Wheel of Time was never about Rand, but about humanity coming together to fight for life. Each character is flawed and will continued to be flawed, because that's the essence of being human. Only someone like the Dark One and the creator can think in "absolute" terms(to rip off several writers).

While I don't love Egwene since she "dumped" Rand in book one( ok they came to the same conclusion), I DO love to see how the Whitetower breaking and forging is coming about through her eyes. I also predict great things between the the alliance/treaty between Toun/Seanchan and Egwene/Whitetower . Also, Logain/black tower and Egwene/Whitetower.

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I believe the Kings and Queens of Randland are, in fact, her responsibility. Any assistance would surely have to go through them first? Motion to fail a fail... has failed.

 

Honestly, I want this "brilliant" maneuvering of the hall to backfire when Rand gives up the throne of Illian so the former king can rule again.

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so what. alot of people had help in fighting the bad guys. rand would have been toast if nynaeve didnt interfere in his fight with rahvin. same with sammael. it's the only way farm boys and farm girls can beat the big bad forsaken according to the authors

 

Yet they all share their credit appropriately. Egwene is the only one that routinely does the least of all of them yet walks away with nearly 100% of the credit every time. It is one of the many reasons why Egwene is the most annoying character in the book. Rand, even at the height of his madness, was not shy about the fact that he was alive in a large part because Nynaeve saved his ass many times.

 

You ask Egwene about Perrin after that battle and her reply would be, "Perrin who?".

 

least of all? have we been reading different books? so that we understand each other, who reunited the white tower and purged the black ajah? who fought back against the seanchan whilst the aes sedai were bickering with each other?

 

i won't even bother with that perrin comment. i think you need to read that whole chapter again

 

You may need to read the chapter again. Egwene completely missread what was going on in the tower. She assumed the murders were casued by Mesana despite the fact that they were not caused by a channeler AND Gawyn fought one of them. Despite this Egwene still assumed she was right and walked right into Mesana's trap. She got her own members killed for no reason and had the dreamspike not been moved there by Perin would have been killed or captured. Even with the dreamspike stopping Mesana from luring her into the trap she still almost blew it with baelfire and then the collar. Perrin directly saved her the first time by proving he knew more about the World Of Dreams despite having barely spent any time there. He has to reteach her the first basic lesson of the World of Dreams which she had forgotten and she used this to stop the collar.

 

Egwene blew it every chance she had with Mesana and only survived because of direct intervention from Perrin. So she misreads the situtation, gets people killed, proves had failed to learn the most basic lesson of the World of Dreams, gets her ass saved by Perrin, still gets captured, and just barely gets out of it by applying the last lesson. Yet you still think she deserves full credit for taking down Mesana?

 

As I said before she did good by applying the lesson she had just learned and overcoming the collar. She deserves some credit. However that credit pales in comparison to her failures during that encounter.

 

 

Ok. So...its been awhile since I posted on this topic. I've been trying to just keep my mouth shut. However, there are a few things that are kinda annoying me. So, on that note....

 

1) Egwene was given help by Verin in the case of the Black Ajah. This is true. And she gives Verin credit- both in her POV and in view of others (see the confrontation with the Hall where she exposes Sheriam). Some of the names on that list were not in the Tower or with the rebels- shes put out alerts for the other sisters so that those people can hopefully be apprehended. As for the people who got loose- well, with Traveling and Mesaana on the lookout, do you really think she could have avoided them finding out and running? When she dealt with the Black Ajah in the rebel camp, she had no real hope of becoming Amrylin in the White Tower's eyes without a battle. So, she decided to clean house beforehand. I know Id rather not go into a fight with about 50 assassins with daggers at my back. I think she did what she could there- and I dont think Verin would have criticized her for what she did. She trusted Egwene with the information, knowing that she wasnt handing her a solution, but information to get to a solution. She did also get help with the Oath Rod idea from the sisters in the Tower. I dont think thats unreasonable- seeing as shes never dealt with the Oath Rod and so when she learned what it could do, she put that knowledge to use. I doubt very much that she wanted to punish the sisters in question by revealing what they had done to the Hall- so she really couldnt tell the Hall where the idea came from. Also- it most likely made a good impression on them from the start. A good number of rulers in real life have said this: "Take credit for the good things. Try to avoid credit for the bad even if you know its your fault." Huzzah politics! I hate politics, but in this case, it is a factor.

 

2) Mesaana. I agree that Egwene was headstrong in believing that Mesaana was responsible for the sisters being killed. However, shed never heard of the Seachan assassins before- she most likely believed them gone. Why shouldnt she? She watched them leave. Also, wouldnt you be slightly obsessed with finding a Forsaken in the Tower? I know I would be. SHE set a trap for the Black Ajah. Another good saying is "All good plans go to waste." I think that she dealt with the information she had at the time and went with it. Its not her fault for having a trap for them turn into an attack BY them. She was ready for battle- she had already mentioned one to the Wise Ones, the best people for the job. She had a plan in place to remove the sisters who really couldnt do much, including the Windfinders, etc. In war, there are casualties. Blaming every single one on the commanding officer is not realistic. I know that a lot of people are upset by Nicola being there- so was Egwene. Yes, she was angry that Nicola had come- she had told her in strict terms NEVER to go to TAR without her approval. Nicola never learned the lesson of obeying. She did feel sadness over Nicola's loss and for the others as well. She did her best with them.

 

3) TAR. Yes- she has been arrogant in the past regarding TAR. She also has been mainly focused on the real world and weaving. People forget things- I know I completely forgot some of it. She learned her lesson and thats that. Now, Perrin reminded her of her very first lessons in TAR. Its true- however, Perrin has also been training EXTENSIVELY the entire book up to that point to beat Luc in TAR. And it took him forever to learn those basic concepts- THATS why he was so able to beat Luc- he put everything he had into learning how in a very short amount of time. Luck absolutely comes into play here (as well, Id suspect, some plot twisting to actually bring Perrin into contact with Egwene to remind her) but it has at other times in the series as well (ie. Nyn and Moghedian being in TAR during Rands fight with Rahvin, Lan being at the dock to see Nyn be attacked by Balefire, etc etc). So, I really cant criticize that. Egwene herself berates herself for forgetting in the middle of the battle. Also- I think it is very rude for anyone to say that Egwene would not acknowledge what Perrin did for her. The "Perrin, who?" comment is completely off base. She does acknowledge him in her POV.

 

4) Also- I think Egwene acknowledges the fact that the Seachen helped her be named Amrylin. I also think that the framework was already solidly in place before the Seachen ever arrived. Egwene didn't get name Amrylin solely on the fact that she helped beat back the Seachen- she did it because of the steps she had already taken. As for some people thinking that she should have done more to stop them- she was dosed up on forkroot, had NOVICES and ACCEPTED linked to her, and she didnt want to give up channeling traveling or balefire or anything else up to the Seachen channelers who can see what she weaves. She really didnt have much help from other sisters- she did what she could with what she had. And how in the world could she have gotten the rebel Aes Sedai involved? She wasn't even with them!

 

There are more comments in this thread that make me shake my head but I am not going to go after every single one of them. I am not going after "Rand fanboys", "people who need to grow another 20 years", "anti-feminists", etc etc etc. Honestly, Im a bit offended that I can't state my opinion without some people apparently thinking that I am a feminist, a Rand-hater, or anything else. Egwene has her flaws. It's amazing- so do we all. Again, as it has been stated before- its one of the great things about this series- the characters are real. None are "perfect". Who wants to be perfect anyways? If you're perfect, theres nothing really to strive for. Egwene most likely will have a confrontation with Rand- its going to happen. We will see what happens there and then everyone who hates her will most likely rejoice or something and move on.

 

Also- just to reiterate something Ive said before. We are not seeing everything that is going on with all of the characters. Its impossible. The timing in this books is slightly off- anyone can see that. There are things that are going on behind the scenes that we are not seeing. Hence, there really can be no "Well, why hasnt she/he/it done this, this, that, this, and that other thing"- we dont know what is happening with a lot of things. Im pretty certain that during a month, all that got done was not just a bunch of letters, one fight, 2 attempted assassinations, etc. Egwene herself states that she is always busy. So, it is LOGICAL to guess that there IS other stuff we are not seeing. And that goes for all of the characters- not just her. And, yes- she has been a hypocrite. So has every other character mostly (there are a few exceptions). However, those people who keep judging her for giving Nynaeve a scare way back when- Nynaeve needed it. You may hate what she did and how she acted but Nynaeve still needed it and I doubt that Egwene was just going to leave her there. In fact, she didnt. She brought her out of the nightmare before any real harm could happen. Id imagine that is how she learned it from the Wise Ones as well. As for the more recent testing, there were reasons why it had to happen- Nynaeve accepted that without reservation. Egwene took part in the testing- which was acknowledged as abnormal by everyone- and she apologized to Nynaeve after. Nynaeve was happy it happened because it opened her eyes. I dont think we know enough about that Ter-angreal to say that Egwene COULD have stopped it. And the underlying reasons why Nynaeve had to take it had not changed. In the end, it was most likely because Nynaeve was overqualified to take it that she managed to do what she did in it. And, Egwene says this and does stick up for her in front of the sisters before they made their judgement.

Edited by Alia
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hmm I just realized the reasoning behind most of the egwene hating (myself included) in a book full of gray views both in all of life and to themselves, egwene seems to be black and white when one reads it. It makes her shallow and hard to relate too, and it makes her suck

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She was okay at the beginning but now to me she is fully AS. She thinks she needs to control the dragon, she manipulates her friends to get what she wants

and that meeting with the wise ones and windfinders is nothing more than getting her hands on those channelers.

 

She thinks she is always right and very very rarely accepts someone elses opinion

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Egwene's reuniting the white tower was her definite high point. While she had massive help in it (e.g. if the seanchan had not attacked, she likely is not raised. if she is not rescued (which she yelled at suian about), she is likely not raised. if the entire situation was not so contrived and unrealistic, she could not do it), she WAS very good in her approach.

By your logic, it's easy for Rand to do what he does because he's getting massive help in the form of losing a hand, going slightly mad and being forced to confront the DO.

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What I especially like about Jordan's writing isn't about how awesome each character is, but about the way the forge alliances and to some effect, manipulate people around them into a single unit. Egwene, may seems like a prideful girl to some. But, honestly she's sacrificed her own personal happiness in favor of the Aes Sedai as a whole. Also, she gained the support of the Aiel, the Kinsfolk, and the Waveriders on her own terms. Well, on terms that are a compromise between the groups. Egwene even facilitates cross training between the groups.

I think what I most dislike about Egwene is how she seems to be the only Emond Fielder who doesn't seem to be working towards Tarmon Gaidon. It's like it's a complete afterthought to gaining power. She starts out tagging along after Nynaeve, the village Wisdom, the most powerful female in her village, turning her nose up at Rand and Mat and Perrin. Then Moiraine comes, and she instantly ditches her devotion to Nynaeve to follow her. She's going to become an Aes Sedai! Then she discovers the Aiel Dreamwalkers and ditches the Aes Sedai for the Aiel. When she gets summoned back (and the Aiel aren't teaching her much anymore so she has to sneak around behind their backs and lie to their faces) she ditches the Aiel and leaps wholeheartedly into being the Amyrlin. There she manipulates Mat, the Aes Sedai trying to help Lan, Siuan, Lelaine, the Hall, the Murandians, the Andorians and everyone else she can to consolidate her power. Now that she has the Tower, she focuses on trying to gain control of the monarchs of Tear, Illian, and Murandy. She also is really intent on trying to tie the Windfinders and Wise Ones to her. The only thing she does against the Shadow is try to eliminate the immediate threat to her power base, Mesaana.

 

Egwene's plan for the Last Battle can be summoned up as:

 

1. Gain control or at least influence over every living female channeler.

2. ???

3. Profit!

 

She's the Amyrlin Seat. But she has no apparent plan to do anything against the Shadow as long as they're not infringing on her territory. She's built up a massive power base in pretty impressive fashion, but what is she going to do with it if Rand isn't around to be opposed?

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Egwene is an exemplar of Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy:

 

In any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself. Examples in education would be teachers who work and sacrifice to teach children, vs. union representative who work to protect any teacher including the most incompetent. The Iron Law states that in all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions.

 

Contrast Egwene's view of the Aes Sedai with that of Rand and Nynaeve.

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She was okay at the beginning but now to me she is fully AS. She thinks she needs to control the dragon, she manipulates her friends to get what she wants

and that meeting with the wise ones and windfinders is nothing more than getting her hands on those channelers.

 

She thinks she is always right and very very rarely accepts someone elses opinion

 

Egwene is my least favorite light-sided character and I have written long rants in the past about her many faults, including the way I thought she wanted to control (i.e. rule) the other channeling groups - despite the fact that her own experience should have shown her that the other groups didn't really need the Aes Sedai and for the most part were much more capable.

 

However, I was actually impressed by Egwene's plan to tie the channeling groups together (which I think is a good goal as long as the White Tower doesn't just become rulers of all). Her plan improves the training and abilities of all groups involved and doesn't even put the White Tower in a superior, ruling position. It was much more fair and equitable to the other groups than I was expecting from her.

 

Plus it mostly over-rides that moronic bargain with the Sea Folk that Elayne and Nynaeve made. And I might actually dislike the Sea Folk more than the White Tower. At least the White Tower has some cause for their arrogance. The Sea Folk are a group with very little influence in the world and that mostly keep to themselves. Not really sure where their enormous egos came from.

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What I especially like about Jordan's writing isn't about how awesome each character is, but about the way the forge alliances and to some effect, manipulate people around them into a single unit. Egwene, may seems like a prideful girl to some. But, honestly she's sacrificed her own personal happiness in favor of the Aes Sedai as a whole. Also, she gained the support of the Aiel, the Kinsfolk, and the Waveriders on her own terms. Well, on terms that are a compromise between the groups. Egwene even facilitates cross training between the groups.

I think what I most dislike about Egwene is how she seems to be the only Emond Fielder who doesn't seem to be working towards Tarmon Gaidon. It's like it's a complete afterthought to gaining power. She starts out tagging along after Nynaeve, the village Wisdom, the most powerful female in her village, turning her nose up at Rand and Mat and Perrin. Then Moiraine comes, and she instantly ditches her devotion to Nynaeve to follow her. She's going to become an Aes Sedai! Then she discovers the Aiel Dreamwalkers and ditches the Aes Sedai for the Aiel. When she gets summoned back (and the Aiel aren't teaching her much anymore so she has to sneak around behind their backs and lie to their faces) she ditches the Aiel and leaps wholeheartedly into being the Amyrlin. There she manipulates Mat, the Aes Sedai trying to help Lan, Siuan, Lelaine, the Hall, the Murandians, the Andorians and everyone else she can to consolidate her power. Now that she has the Tower, she focuses on trying to gain control of the monarchs of Tear, Illian, and Murandy. She also is really intent on trying to tie the Windfinders and Wise Ones to her. The only thing she does against the Shadow is try to eliminate the immediate threat to her power base, Mesaana.

 

Egwene's plan for the Last Battle can be summoned up as:

 

1. Gain control or at least influence over every living female channeler.

2. ???

3. Profit!

 

She's the Amyrlin Seat. But she has no apparent plan to do anything against the Shadow as long as they're not infringing on her territory. She's built up a massive power base in pretty impressive fashion, but what is she going to do with it if Rand isn't around to be opposed?

 

I dont see the course of events how you do, apparently. To me, it kinda went like this (and it could just be differing POVs)

 

1. She was selected by Nynaeve to follow in her footsteps (as Nyn could sense Egwene had the same ability she does).

2. Egwene said repeatedly- even got into a fight with Rand because of it- that she wanted to explore outside of Two Rivers. Why wouldnt she leap at becoming an Aes Sedai? I dont think she actually said she wanted to be an Aes Sedai at the beginning- she just wants to leave if you read it. Moraine tells her a lil later. Why not go for it?

3. She discovers that she has a special ability and that the Aiel can teach her about it whereas the Tower cannot. She does go with Moraine there but why wouldnt she want to learn about it? She'd been sent away from the Tower by order of Suian to hunt the Black Ajah. The Dreamwalking could and did help her with that. In order to learn, she was told she had to become an apprentice. So she does. She DOES go behind their backs- theres no getting around that and she shouldnt have. She also lies to them. She pays for her Toh and when Amys and Bair find out shes been experimenting, they forgive her.

4. She was chosen to be Amyrlin. There was no asking her to do it. She had no choice. Between being used as a puppet or becoming what she hoped to be a good leader, theres no question what I would do. And she doesnt ditch the Aiel. She has other conversations with them after her raising and theres no point in there that she treats them with disrespect. She even says then that maybe other Aes Sedai should go for training there at that time. So- the idea of bonding all the channelers together probably started growing then.

5. She doesnt try to gain control of those monarchs. Shes trying to stop Rand from doing what is- in most of their opinions- a very bad idea. Theres no where in there her thinking "Now, I can control them!" Its more of a "Well, what can I do to sway them to fully endorse my protests?"

6. Getting rid of Mesaana, to me, seems like a pretty big deal. Goodbye another Forsaken? Also, as has been stated before, shes NOT in charge of the war anymore. And before that, all we know is that she's been really busy. At the end of TGS, it has her in her new office and states what shes been working on starting to do. In the next book, its not so clear cut but I dont think ANYONE can state with absolute certainty that shes "not doing anything." Nor can they say that about the Hall.

 

So, in the end. I think that Egwene IS flawed in some ways. I also think shes trying to do the best that she can. Shes trying to also plan for AFTER the Last Battle. Just like Elayne in Camelyn and Rand with his schools and likely most other leaders. The White Tower helped the world survive the aftermath of the last battle with the DO. Why shouldnt she try to see that it is able to help after this one?

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So, in the end. I think that Egwene IS flawed in some ways. I also think shes trying to do the best that she can. Shes trying to also plan for AFTER the Last Battle. Just like Elayne in Camelyn and Rand with his schools and likely most other leaders. The White Tower helped the world survive the aftermath of the last battle with the DO. Why shouldnt she try to see that it is able to help after this one?

no it didnt, no WT thus not possible

 

imo it went like this

 

1) she went from being the mayors daughter to being the wisdoms apprentice

2) she argued with rand about leaving the TR's (mentioning becoming an wisdom across the river)

3) she decides to chase after moraine (learns she can learn to channel/becomes unofficial leader of the TR's bunch)

4) gets to the WT starts chaffing at nyns leadership

5) captured by seanchan/saved by nynaeve

6) returns to tower pissed off that she is rebuked for once

7) leaves WT to hunt BA fights constantly with nyn because nyn is leading

8) goes to live with the Aiel (betrays all their rules and lies about it for duration of event)

9) tortures nyn for almost revealing that she actually disobeyed WO's

10) goes back to salidar becomes amyrlin and rather rapidly everyone falls into line (much like the mob process in the states, through coersion, threats, and blackmail)

11) gets captured through being an idiot (condemns everything elaida does even thoguh she does the exact same)

12) I hate her (ok 12 is not valid but the rest are)

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So, in the end. I think that Egwene IS flawed in some ways. I also think shes trying to do the best that she can. Shes trying to also plan for AFTER the Last Battle. Just like Elayne in Camelyn and Rand with his schools and likely most other leaders. The White Tower helped the world survive the aftermath of the last battle with the DO. Why shouldnt she try to see that it is able to help after this one?

no it didnt, no WT thus not possible

 

imo it went like this

 

1) she went from being the mayors daughter to being the wisdoms apprentice

2) she argued with rand about leaving the TR's (mentioning becoming an wisdom across the river)

3) she decides to chase after moraine (learns she can learn to channel/becomes unofficial leader of the TR's bunch)

4) gets to the WT starts chaffing at nyns leadership

5) captured by seanchan/saved by nynaeve

6) returns to tower pissed off that she is rebuked for once

7) leaves WT to hunt BA fights constantly with nyn because nyn is leading

8) goes to live with the Aiel (betrays all their rules and lies about it for duration of event)

9) tortures nyn for almost revealing that she actually disobeyed WO's

10) goes back to salidar becomes amyrlin and rather rapidly everyone falls into line (much like the mob process in the states, through coersion, threats, and blackmail)

11) gets captured through being an idiot (condemns everything elaida does even thoguh she does the exact same)

12) I hate her (ok 12 is not valid but the rest are)

 

Everyones entitled to their own opinion :) Although, I would argue the WT not existing. Aes Sedai were definently around before and after the Breaking of the World. Also, in several books, its mentioned what the Aes Sedai were doing just after the Sealing of the Bore. So- they did help.

Edited by Alia
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So, in the end. I think that Egwene IS flawed in some ways. I also think shes trying to do the best that she can. Shes trying to also plan for AFTER the Last Battle. Just like Elayne in Camelyn and Rand with his schools and likely most other leaders. The White Tower helped the world survive the aftermath of the last battle with the DO. Why shouldnt she try to see that it is able to help after this one?

no it didnt, no WT thus not possible

 

imo it went like this

 

1) she went from being the mayors daughter to being the wisdoms apprentice

2) she argued with rand about leaving the TR's (mentioning becoming an wisdom across the river)

3) she decides to chase after moraine (learns she can learn to channel/becomes unofficial leader of the TR's bunch)

4) gets to the WT starts chaffing at nyns leadership

5) captured by seanchan/saved by nynaeve

6) returns to tower pissed off that she is rebuked for once

7) leaves WT to hunt BA fights constantly with nyn because nyn is leading

8) goes to live with the Aiel (betrays all their rules and lies about it for duration of event)

9) tortures nyn for almost revealing that she actually disobeyed WO's

10) goes back to salidar becomes amyrlin and rather rapidly everyone falls into line (much like the mob process in the states, through coersion, threats, and blackmail)

11) gets captured through being an idiot (condemns everything elaida does even thoguh she does the exact same)

12) I hate her (ok 12 is not valid but the rest are)

 

Everyones entitled to their own opinion :) Although, I would argue the WT not existing. Aes Sedai were definently around before and after the Breaking of the World. Also, in several books, its mentioned what the Aes Sedai were doing just after the Sealing of the Bore. So- they did help.

semantics, at that time they would have been under the old system of AS governing, the Hall of Servents, the WT is more definately post breaking since an insane male would likely have destroyed any place that too many people gathered

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So, in the end. I think that Egwene IS flawed in some ways. I also think shes trying to do the best that she can. Shes trying to also plan for AFTER the Last Battle. Just like Elayne in Camelyn and Rand with his schools and likely most other leaders. The White Tower helped the world survive the aftermath of the last battle with the DO. Why shouldnt she try to see that it is able to help after this one?

no it didnt, no WT thus not possible

 

imo it went like this

 

1) she went from being the mayors daughter to being the wisdoms apprentice

2) she argued with rand about leaving the TR's (mentioning becoming an wisdom across the river)

3) she decides to chase after moraine (learns she can learn to channel/becomes unofficial leader of the TR's bunch)

4) gets to the WT starts chaffing at nyns leadership

5) captured by seanchan/saved by nynaeve

6) returns to tower pissed off that she is rebuked for once

7) leaves WT to hunt BA fights constantly with nyn because nyn is leading

8) goes to live with the Aiel (betrays all their rules and lies about it for duration of event)

9) tortures nyn for almost revealing that she actually disobeyed WO's

10) goes back to salidar becomes amyrlin and rather rapidly everyone falls into line (much like the mob process in the states, through coersion, threats, and blackmail)

11) gets captured through being an idiot (condemns everything elaida does even thoguh she does the exact same)

12) I hate her (ok 12 is not valid but the rest are)

 

Everyones entitled to their own opinion :) Although, I would argue the WT not existing. Aes Sedai were definently around before and after the Breaking of the World. Also, in several books, its mentioned what the Aes Sedai were doing just after the Sealing of the Bore. So- they did help.

semantics, at that time they would have been under the old system of AS governing, the Hall of Servents, the WT is more definately post breaking since an insane male would likely have destroyed any place that too many people gathered

 

Fair enough but it still holds true. Besides, just because the "White Tower" didn't "help" the same way doesnt mean that planning on what to do after the Last Battle is a bad idea. In a way, it would strike more hope with people and morale has won or lost a lot of battles.

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So, in the end. I think that Egwene IS flawed in some ways. I also think shes trying to do the best that she can. Shes trying to also plan for AFTER the Last Battle. Just like Elayne in Camelyn and Rand with his schools and likely most other leaders. The White Tower helped the world survive the aftermath of the last battle with the DO. Why shouldnt she try to see that it is able to help after this one?

no it didnt, no WT thus not possible

 

imo it went like this

 

1) she went from being the mayors daughter to being the wisdoms apprentice

2) she argued with rand about leaving the TR's (mentioning becoming an wisdom across the river)

3) she decides to chase after moraine (learns she can learn to channel/becomes unofficial leader of the TR's bunch)

4) gets to the WT starts chaffing at nyns leadership

5) captured by seanchan/saved by nynaeve

6) returns to tower pissed off that she is rebuked for once

7) leaves WT to hunt BA fights constantly with nyn because nyn is leading

8) goes to live with the Aiel (betrays all their rules and lies about it for duration of event)

9) tortures nyn for almost revealing that she actually disobeyed WO's

10) goes back to salidar becomes amyrlin and rather rapidly everyone falls into line (much like the mob process in the states, through coersion, threats, and blackmail)

11) gets captured through being an idiot (condemns everything elaida does even thoguh she does the exact same)

12) I hate her (ok 12 is not valid but the rest are)

 

 

If someone didnt know that egwene was light sided character and read that description of yours one would be forgiven for thinking she was a darkfriend of some sorts. well done for leaving out every single positive thing she has done in the series. 'claps'

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5. She doesnt try to gain control of those monarchs. Shes trying to stop Rand from doing what is- in most of their opinions- a very bad idea. Theres no where in there her thinking "Now, I can control them!" Its more of a "Well, what can I do to sway them to fully endorse my protests?"

I am not so sure about that. I think she was doing both - trying to stop Rand and also increasing the Tower's influence and control over the monarchs of the world. She reflected on it herself while she was writing some of the letters to the monarchs.

 

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower.
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Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower.

 

Exactly. Subconciously she knows its just another powerplay, but its easier to justify it to herself and others if she tells herself its about the Seals.

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This was such a hilarious fail I couldn't help but point it out.

Oh, this should be good, I can't wait.

 

 

Rand gathers Ituralde and gets him into the Borderlands to assist in holding off the invasion of trollocs.

Rand brings Bashere and his army to Maradon.

Rand sees the courage and light in the men at Maradon and decides they've done enough. He then proceeds to risk everything to save them and wipes out 'hundreds of thousands' (that is a quote) of trollocs.

Rand meets the utterly stupid Borderlanders who thought to meet Rand they needed to bring just about every single soldier in the Borderlands with them, risking all of humanity. He basically humbles himself in front of these utter idiots in an attempt to have those armies back up in the Borderlands to keep the invasion from coming south too soon.

Rand did all this whilst juggling The White Tower, the nations of the world, the Forsaken, cleansing of the taint (I can't remember if this came before he got Ituralde or not), restoring Bandar Eban or Ebou Dar (I forgot), bubbles of evil, his own sanity and more.

So, then, by your own admission, Rand's accomplishments are telling a couple guys to move their armies to Saldaea, even though logically a few thousand soldiers are not going to be much help the next time HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Trollocs come in, and using his magical powers to save one city, one time (although not until it was already overrun and thousands of people died.)

 

That's cool. I'm sure Kandor and Arafel will be fine. And Lan has literally thousands of men at his side, to deal with the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Trollocs who are about to start pouring out of Tarwin's Gap.

 

Yeah, this totally contradicts my point about how the only thing anyone had done for the Borderlands was (mostly) save one city.

 

And hell, given that all it took was him stopping by for a couple hours to kill those HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Trollocs, why didn't he rest up for a night and then head to Shol Arbela and Chachin, which are presumably also under attack by HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Trollocs.

 

Oh, and I like how the monarchs of the Borderlands are "utter idiots" because they did what they had to to fulfill a prophecy. And your comical outrage that MAN-GOD RAND AL'THOR had to show some humility in the face of four major world leaders.

 

 

You sir just failed.

You, sir, are retarded if you think your post shows that.

 

 

And no, Rand isn't my favourite character. My list goes Mat = Moiraine > Birgitte > Rand > Min.

Let's see. Rand's best friend who hasn't challenged him in any way since about the second book in the series, the formerly strong woman who finally humbled herself before Rand, someone who's barely met Rand, Rand, and the woman who gives Rand unequivocal support in everything he does.

 

Yeah, you have no problem with people who stand up to Rand at all, do you?

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The notion Moirane is a "formerly" strong woman is, IMO, pretty outrageous.

 

Finally ceasing to attmept to control the life and actions of another does not make one a weak person. It makes one a person who respects the autonomy of others.

 

Repsecting the autonomy of others is, of course, not a trait much valued by the Aes Sedai as a whole. So perhaps Moirane is no longer a strong Aes Sedai. Which just makes me agree even more with Rand and Nynaeve's assessment that the best Aes Sedai are the ones that don't act in a way the Aes Sedai consider, "proper."

 

But Moraine is a strong person, either way.

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Still waiting for an anti-Egwene reply to Alia's well laid out post at the end of page 34. I don't expect to get a good reply though, since just about everyone who would argue against that post is just using their baseless hatred of Egwene. Honestly Durinax, you could be a bit more subtle, don't you think? :tongue:

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Still waiting for an anti-Egwene reply to Alia's well laid out post at the end of page 34. I don't expect to get a good reply though, since just about everyone who would argue against that post is just using their baseless hatred of Egwene. Honestly Durinax, you could be a bit more subtle, don't you think? :tongue:

 

Already done, on Page 1. In sufficient depth and detail to satisfy all but the most ardent Egwene fanbois and fangurls. Who will never be satisfied with any post that suggests Egwene isn't perfect.

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Still waiting for an anti-Egwene reply to Alia's well laid out post at the end of page 34. I don't expect to get a good reply though, since just about everyone who would argue against that post is just using their baseless hatred of Egwene. Honestly Durinax, you could be a bit more subtle, don't you think? :tongue:

 

I am anti-Egwene and I will agree with you here - I'm not going to argue with Alia's post because he/she made some very reasonable points. I might nit pick a minor detail here or there (Example - justifying Egwene's treatment of Nynaeve in TAR because it was Nynaeve "needed it" or because she was "teaching" her; this would be OK if the basis behind it was intended to actually teach Nynaeve rather than just covering up Egwene's own lies. I won't give credit to Egwene for a mildly beneficial unintended side-effect for an action that was completely negative.) but for the most part I don't really disagree with any of it. I can dislike Egwene while still being aware that she has positive attributes and accomplishments. If you look a few posts above you will even find me defending her plan to tie the channeling groups together.

 

However, you will also notice that Alia's post points out that Egwene has her faults and is not perfect. These faults are enough to make her a pretty unsympathetic character to me. One that I wouldn't really want to be friends with. I won't go into all these faults (arrogance, hypocrisy, easily swayed loyalties, etc.) in detail because that has been done previously in this thread. I will just note that just like you expect the anti-Egwene people to acknowledge her positives, I would expect the pro-Egwene people to be able to acknowledge that she has faults. For me personally, those faults make her more unlikable than her positives make her likable. That's just personal preference.

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And no, Rand isn't my favourite character. My list goes Mat = Moiraine > Birgitte > Rand > Min.

Let's see. Rand's best friend who hasn't challenged him in any way since about the second book in the series, the formerly strong woman who finally humbled herself before Rand, someone who's barely met Rand, Rand, and the woman who gives Rand unequivocal support in everything he does.

 

Yeah, you have no problem with people who stand up to Rand at all, do you?

 

What's with your fixation on Rand and rating all characters based upon their relationship to him? Matt is many peoples favorites because of his own accomplishments and personality, not because of anything to do with Rand. Moraine was beloved because she always did what was right and only "humbled" herself because she saw that she could manipulate Rand better that way (i.e. she was intelligent in the way she accomplished her goals). etc, etc.

 

I get it that you are looking to defend Egwene by repeating my 4-year-old's mantra of "well, i'm bad, but he's WORSE", but that's not really an effective argument to make in general. And, even so, the argument that Rand's many accomplishments in this book to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon are in any way comparable to Egwene's complete lack of focus on the Last Battle (and her heavy focus on White Tower politics) is just laughable.

 

I don't say egwene did nothing in the series, but her performance in this book was pathetic. By her actions and what we can see inside her head, she was focused on consolidating her power base far more than any care about the world at large.

 

E.g. she gets 2 reports within 5 minutes of each other - the borderlands are being overrun....does nothing. Then, a couple of pages later - the hall is meeting...runs there with a fully prepared and fleshed out plan on how to counter their political ploys.

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