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Discuss Egwene

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I really don't understand you at all. Nothing says you have to like or agree with what they do but what is the point of pretending things don't exist or happen when we have them clearly documented?

 

Sovereign countries ask them to negotiate treaties for them, many rulers and nobles ask them for counsel and the are asked for to aid with men who can channel. No matter how much you wish they didn't, and how much you think they get it wrong when they do, it doesn't change the fact that that's what happens. They do those things as Aes Sedai, if that's not acting in a role I'm not sure what is.

 

The Borderlands regularaly pay tribute to the WT. It is stated in the book that the tribute isn't needed anymore, but they still have the borderlands pay it. And yet the Green ajah sits in the tower twidling their thumbs, instead of fighting trollocs as in their ajah mission statement. Nations ask these things of them and they provide them yes, but what of the other ajahs? The WT supposibly is occupied by 1000ish AS. Thats not counting AS who are abroad. I'd think there should be about 100-150 AS to capture male channelers. Maybe 10-30 for treaties, another 10 as advisors. About 50 more for (sigh) Hall, Ajah heads, amyrlin and keeper. Another 70-80 for novice/accepted teaching. That leaves about 760-680 sisters left in the tower, pursueing their own interests and soaking up the WT's gold. I'd call that unexceptable in ANY institution that receives donations.

 

As I said you don't have to think they do what they do well, or like how they go about it, but it doesn't change the fact that they do it which is the point I was answering because some people are still pretending they all do nothing at all every, which is just false. Certainly some Ajahs do better than others, some sisters do better than others, but they're all Aes Sedai, so to argue that Aes Sedai do absolutely nothing ever is untrue.

 

I believe ~1000 was the total. There were ~200 AS in the Tower when Elaida was in charge iirc. There are *a lot* of advisors or those on diplomatic missions, not only rulers have them but many nobles seem to as well. Some rulers seem to have several etc, plus the various groups sent out on diplomatic missions of one kind or another.

 

Also, if someone wants to keep giving me money I'm happy to take it. As is every other business, Government organisation or basically anything I've ever seen or worked with. Why is it that unusual or unreasonable that they do?

 

Except that we see them hold numerous times. They hold in Ebou Dar when they're allowed to take the Bowl of the Winds, they hold in the Waste when Moiraine takes objects of the power from Rhuidean, they hold in Saldea when they take Mazrim Taim, they held in either Ghealdan or Murandy (I don't think it's made clear which) when they take Logain etc etc.

 

I don't remember Teslyn being bullied into letting them take the bowl, nor do I remember the Aiel being bullied into letting them take things from Rhuidean, and people didn't seem unhappy about their assistance with Logain. So it's simply not true to say they only ever get what they want through bullying.

 

Through Tower Law they claim jurisdiction over those things regardless of where they occur geographically, and this is recognised and complied with by most nations. As I've already mentioned laws can apply outside of the geographical jurisdiction in which they're made provided the other geographical jurisdiction agrees to have them apply. This is what we see here, the Tower Law wouldn't apply if people didn't agree to have it apply (Tear doesn't for example), but it does where the other nations agree that it will, their actions in allowing the Aes Sedai to take the objects of the power etc demonstrate their consent.

 

That is, if the rulers know everything thats happening everywhere in their kingdom at any given time. The fact is, anywhere we see AS interact with anyone other than other AS, they try to take control.(Im looking at you, Joline, Cadsuane) The objects of the One power thing is just ridiculous. If a Spanish ship bearing Gold, property of the Spanish government crashed and sunk in a hurricane in 1655, and it was found today in the Carribean, would Spain demand that all the gold be brought to it at once?

 

We see Moiraine interact with the Wise Ones then load up and take everything she can carry out of Rhuidean, we see a whole bunch of Aes Sedai interact with Tylin and load up and take the contents of the storehouse. You can't say they took those actions without the consent of the leaders of those nations.

 

And yes, Spain does that actually. Totally dead serious. Google it.

 

Regardless again this is one where it doesn't matter if you think it's a stupid claim, my point was that they make it and other people (in general, obviously there are some exceptions) recognise it and comply. There's no judgment there about whether that's a good or bad thing, simply that it happens.

 

re them taking charge yes they do, can you blame them? Why wouldn't they want to take charge if they could? Why do people think they owe some sort of obligation to people to not use what advantages they have? It's like none of you have heard of politics before.

 

So I guess it was still too complex for you then. Sorry, but there's no point me breaking it down any further, it's really not that difficult a point to follow.
The scenario was in the 3000 or so years before Seanchan and traveling. They would undoubtably(seeing how smart and wise all AS are) be positioned so that they could serve the densest population while presenting the shortest traveling distance to them. 100 miles is a lot different than 500. More people would go because they are closer. The borderlands would not need many healers, as they have a whole significantly large ajah, the greens, that is devoted tho fighting shadowspawn.(this is in a perfect world where greens are actually doing something useful)

 

Ok thanks for clarifying, when you gave the scenario you said 'you' were sick, not you were sick 3000 years ago, so I went with the former. However as I said even if they did have one in Tanchico, all that would mean would be they'd not have one elsewhere, as only so many can be healed, they can't have infinite hospitals etc. Every person healed in Tanchico is one person in the Borderlands (or elsewhere) not healed, and while that might be great news for you if you're sick in Tanchico it isn't the best news for your hypothetical cousin who's sick in the Boderlands.

 

Healing is a Talent, one can suppose from the fact that they aren't in the Yellow that it isn't a strong talent amongst most Greens, so saying 'they can do all the Borderlands healing' is reaching. I will also add that the Greens are respected throughout the Borderlands due to the role they have played there in the past, so pretending they've done nothing ever is also just not true.

Edited by Kahlika

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Soverign countries ask them to negotiate treaties for them

We do not have a single example. We have plenty of example of These WT witches bullying rulers to form treaties or just kidnap rulers, etc.

 

The only recent examples we have of them kidnapping are both related to Elaida, which as we've mentioned over, and over, and over is written specifically to show an Aes Sedai who does abuse power etc. That is intended to be a contrast to the other Aes Sedai and show what could happen if they chose that path.

 

On the other hand we have numerous examples of treaties, alliances, negotiations and even investigations conducted by Aes Sedai. They worked to form and hold the Grand Coalition during the Aiel War, they were the arcitects of the Compact of 10 nations 200 years after the Breaking, during the War of the Second Dragon they coordinated the Eastern nations against Guaire Amalasan (personally holding back his forces in defence of the Stone in Tear), Merana negotiated the Fifth Treaty of Falme, Annoura negotiated on behalf of Mayene and was involved with trying to hold the Grand Coalition together after the Aiel War, Rand asks Greys to negotiate The Bargain with the Seafolk on his behalf, brings Greys along to his meetings with the Seanchan, and sends Aes Sedai to negotiate with the rebels in Tear which ultimately ends with Darlin named King, and aside from that there are numerous references to them acting as mediators, investigators and in some cases sitting in judgement, for exampe Beonin refers to a series of murders she once investigated and Ashmanaille refers to her experiance in civil matters. If you'd like to provide some evidence that they achieved these by no means other than bullying please feel free, otherwise I'm afraid your argument doesn't really stand up.

 

many rulers and nobles ask them for counsel and the are asked for to aid with men who can channel.

We really do not see anybody asking them. We saw them forcefully go into sovereign countries and kidnap men. We also saw them floating false Dragons :)) Sometimes people do not mind them taking tyrant dragons, but nobody begged them for there service. You can say even a Bully does a few good things from time to time and common people may be thankful for a few of their actions. That does not make them any less bully.

 

You do realise the 'them floating flase Dragons' was a fake story made up to get Logain his revenge on the Reds right? That never actually happened, enough Aes Sedai were convinced of it to pass on the lie believing it to be truth, but it wasn't actually true.

 

Berlain asks, Colavere asks, Tylin asks, Alliandre asks and Morgase asks at one point.

 

We saw Elaida kidnap people. Eladia was meant to demonstrate an Aes Sedai abusing their power, she was written to be an example of a bad Aes Sedai purposefully, the things she does stand out as so apalling because they are exceptions rather than rules. You can't really apply examples from Elaids in a more general sense to all Aes Sedai legitimately, or you're just missing the entire point about Elaida.

 

This is what we see here, the Tower Law wouldn't apply if people didn't agree to have it apply (Tear doesn't for example), but it does where the other nations agree that it will, their actions in allowing the Aes Sedai to take the objects of the power etc demonstrate their consent.

This shows Some rulers fear WT more and less spine to resist. Nowhere it is mentioned that any country has law to follow tower law.

 

Nowhere is it mentioned that they don't. And moreover we see them cooperating and complying, which suggests acceptance of the Aes Sedai's jurisdiction rather than the opposite. Nor can I think any of them acting afraid or spineless when they do so.

 

A lie cannot be complex and you are lying like a WT pretend AS. Seanchan were not there in Randland anywhere, neither in Ebou Dar nor in Amadicia. WT bungled for 3000 years. Whatever way you try to twist this truth you won't be able to make anyone believe in the lies you want them to believe.

 

I genuinely have no clue what you're talking about. I think you're trying to insult me? Is that meant to upset me somehow?

 

As discussed multiple times in this thread they haven't in fact sat on their backsides and done nothing for 3000 years, they clearly haven't achieved as much as people expect of them, but there's a long way between that and nothing at all. I'll refer you back to page 30 of this thread rather than reiterating it here.

 

I made it clear that I was talking about present time when I referred to the Seanchan in Amadicia and Ebou Dar.

 

Tanchico is held by the Seanchan, Bandar Eban is right next to the Seanchan, pretty much anything down the entire West side of the map is out, they can't go there. We're talking small numbers of Aes Sedai because that's all they have, and a hospital would be out and out declaring where they are so they aren't going to take too many risks. Caemlyn, Cairhein, Illian would all be logical, Tear, Amadacia and Far Madding are also out, I'd say Murandy is also out, so that really leaves the the Borderlands. There's still a lot of travelling involved to get to any of those places from outside the capitals with all the risks involved. Although it would make more sense to simply use Traveling to take people to Tar Valon if they want Aes Sedai healing at this point rather than have hospital outposts.

 

I pretty specifically mention travelling, which is a pretty big pointer to me talking about now. I then clarified that in case you were still confused in my next post. If you're still struggling to follow it it really isn't my problem at this point.

 

But as I've said 4 or 5 times now it's irrelevant. If they had a hospital in Tanchico it would mean not having one somewhere else. They can only heal a finite number of people, and every person healed in Tanchico or Ebou Dar is one less healed elsewhere.

 

If you're talking about something else feel free to elaborate, because you're not making a lot of sense.

 

Except when this is an institution of Bullies. A Bully expects the payment just because she is a bully. Otherwise she will beat you (mind that not harm you, beating is for your own good) or should I say she will cause a little inconvenience to you.

About the count - 100-150 to capture male channelers is overestimate. If they were not busy plotting to plant false draggons then they shouldn't need more than 50.

10-30 for treaties, kidnapping rulers etc. seems to be too small a number. This role is directly related to power politics of nation. At no time we see that at least one representative from each Ajah is playing this role at each powerhouse of every nation. So, with 9 nations to count and each having more or less 5 major and 10 minor powerhouses on average, I would say 250 - 300 total. Good thing is they also cover the spy network of each Ajah. I would agree for rest of your count. We still have 500-600 sisters in tower doing nothing.

 

That makes pretty much everyone and everything bullies then. I don't know of anyone or any organisation that would turn down free money, perhaps they're all living near you. On the Moon presumably.

 

Egwene states that there are only a couple of hundred Aes Sedai in the tower when she was being held prisoner.

 

As discussed above the planting false dragons thing was a story. It's not real. Have you even bothered to read the books?

 

If the gold is of Spanish gov then atleast they have a valid claim. The objects of One Power were made by Aes Sedai for general public. These are public property. Just because these WT witches have power does not make them rightful owner of those. It is like Nazis confiscating properties of Jews. Because one has power she becomes rightful owner.

 

Just putting this out here, but you repeatedly calling them witches and making up lies about them is starting to make you sound like a Whitecloak, and they're not known for being the most rational, intelligent, humane or even sane organisation in the world. Why you'd want to align yourself with their views is beyond me. But go right ahead, I'm sure it's providing endless amusement for people. Honestly there's far better and more coherant reasons to dislike them, ones that many people have actually argued soundly, why are you opting to use pretend things to justify your weak arguments? I'm really not seeing what it's meant to achieve.

 

Made for the public to use doesn't equal given to the public. You're just making things up again.

 

Not to mention the fact that the Aes Sedai have a fairly legitimate claim given that they're the only people in the world with any chance of using the things or working out what they are, and that the things have the potential to be highly dangerous. Even given that it's still irrelavent, as I've said time and time again, nothing says you have to like or approve of the law for it to exist. Plenty of people regard tax laws as theft just as you regard the Aes Sedais laws about objects of the power as being theft. It doesn't change the fact that they're still laws.

 

And yes, just like the Nazis, of course. Now that Godwins Law has been fulfilled I'm gonna go ahead and declare this over. You failed. Goodnight.

 

Darth I need to get some sleep, I'll reply to your post tomorrow when I can give it a little more focus.

Edited by Kahlika

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Healing is a Talent, one can suppose from the fact that they aren't in the Yellow that it isn't a strong talent amongst most Greens, so saying 'they can do all the Borderlands healing' is reaching.

We've seen plenty of sisters from other Ajahs--including the Green--with sufficient skill to Heal people from bad wounds. Moiraine was a good Healer and Healed numerous Two Rivers people after the Trolloc attack in TEotW. Alanna once Healed Perrin from a bad arrow wound. Joline was said to be a better Healer than Teslyn, and Teslyn still managed to Heal Egeanin after she was stabbed.

 

Healing is a pretty common Talent; it's just that not everyone wants to devote themselves exclusively to it like the Yellows. If they send a group of Greens to the Borderlands, the best Healers can link with the others and use their strength.

 

Not to mention the fact that the Aes Sedai have a fairly legitimate claim given that they're the only people in the world with any chance of using the things or working out what they are, and that the things have the potential to be highly dangerous.

This I agree with, though I'd like to see other groups of channelers get access to the *angreal too, especially when so much was brought out of Rhuidean. Now that all major groups know Traveling, the Tower could become a storage place for *angreal and allow Wise Ones and Sea Folk to borrow/study them. The Sea Folk know more about the Bowl than anyone else, Aviendha can read ter'angreal, Elayne can copy them... Working together, they could get more use out of the *angreal than the Tower could alone. Egwene has already taken a step in this direction by giving the Sea Folk copies of the dream ter'angreal.

 

"I don't think the Hall will agree to this. Many are adamant that all objects of the One Power should belong to us."

"The Hall will see reason," Egwene said. "We've already returned the Bowl of Winds to the Sea Folk, and now that Elayne has rediscovered the method of crafting ter'angreal, it is only a matter of time before there are so many we cannot keep track of them all. [...] Will we insist that all angreal and sa'angreal created for men belong to us, though we cannot use them? What if there are Asha'man who learn to create objects of Power? Will we force them to give up everything they create to us? Could we enforce that?"

--ToM

Edited by sleepinghour

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Not to mention the fact that the Aes Sedai have a fairly legitimate claim given that they're the only people in the world with any chance of using the things or working out what they are, and that the things have the potential to be highly dangerous.

 

This I agree with, though I'd like to see other groups of channelers get access to the *angreal too, especially when so much was brought out of Rhuidean. Now that all major groups know Traveling, the Tower could become a storage place for *angreal and allow Wise Ones and Sea Folk to borrow/study them. The Sea Folk know more about the Bowl than anyone else, Aviendha can read ter'angreal, Elayne can copy them... Working together, they could get more use out of the *angreal than the Tower could alone. Egwene has already taken a step in this direction by giving the Sea Folk copies of the dream ter'angreal.

 

"I don't think the Hall will agree to this. Many are adamant that all objects of the One Power should belong to us."

"The Hall will see reason," Egwene said. "We've already returned the Bowl of Winds to the Sea Folk, and now that Elayne has rediscovered the method of crafting ter'angreal, it is only a matter of time before there are so many we cannot keep track of them all. [...] Will we insist that all angreal and sa'angreal created for men belong to us, though we cannot use them? What if there are Asha'man who learn to create objects of Power? Will we force them to give up everything they create to us? Could we enforce that?"

--ToM

 

Two points:

 

1) The AS are not the only people in the World that are capable of using or studying them. The WT is simply the only group of people that the AS know of that can use and study them. The only reason that the AS had not learned of the the other groups was due to their own arrogance. Had they not behaved like the embodiment of greedy and stuck up, if AS had shown any respect for other cultures or ideas than their own then neither the WO or WF would have had reason to keep their own existence secret. Either group would have been as capable of using and studying objects of the Power as any AS. And this doesn't even begin to cover Objects that do not require the OP to use, like the Leaf of Growing that Elayne and Co. found in EB. Shouldn't the Leaf go back to the Ogier? Do you think it would have before ToM? And in my opinion it still wont be given back to them.

 

2) Referencing the quote from ToM that was given - Have you noticed what is missing? Where is Eggy's comment that the WT doesn't have the right to take them away from others? Oh yeah, she never says that. The most telling point of the entire quote is the last sentence, "Could we enforce that?" Always in the past, the WT was able to bully others into giving up Objects of the Power. They depended on their reputation and the common people's fear of the OP to make others abide by the edict that all Objects belong to the WT. That is no longer an acceptable option. Notice the sentence about the Asha'man. One would think that if the AM create Objects, then they would belong unequivocally to the person that creates it. But Eggy's sentence is not about a creator having a right to own what he creates, but instead about "Will we force them". Not that the WT shouldn't do it because it is stealing and therefore wrong, no, her thoughts are about can we do it, not should we do it.

 

Her decision to allow distribution of Objects has nothing to do with "Stealing is Wrong", instead it is entirely based on the fact that the WT cannot "enforce" their will on the rest of the World as they had before. So instead of being seen as weak for not being able to carry out it's edicts, she wants the WT to be strong and generous for lifting the Edict of Theft. The quote makes it clear that giving up Objects is a political move, and the WT saving face. It's never good to have a law that is unenforceable.

 

And by the way I do agree with Kahlika. A law is a law. It doesn't matter whether the law serves the Shadow or not. Since the WT had no checks or balances on itself, it was capable of creating what ever law they chose to, and fear of the OP made most of Randland go along with the laws that the WT made, whether or not the law was morally wrong.

Edited by Ishadar

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"I don't think the Hall will agree to this. Many are adamant that all objects of the One Power should belong to us."

"The Hall will see reason," Egwene said. "We've already returned the Bowl of Winds to the Sea Folk, and now that Elayne has rediscovered the method of crafting ter'angreal, it is only a matter of time before there are so many we cannot keep track of them all. [...] Will we insist that all angreal and sa'angreal created for men belong to us, though we cannot use them? What if there are Asha'man who learn to create objects of Power? Will we force them to give up everything they create to us? Could we enforce that?"

--ToM

 

2) Referencing the quote from ToM that was given - Have you noticed what is missing? Where is Eggy's comment that the WT doesn't have the right to take them away from others? Oh yeah, she never says that. The most telling point of the entire quote is the last sentence, "Could we enforce that?" Always in the past, the WT was able to bully others into giving up Objects of the Power. They depended on their reputation and the common people's fear of the OP to make others abide by the edict that all Objects belong to the WT. That is no longer an acceptable option. Notice the sentence about the Asha'man. One would think that if the AM create Objects, then they would belong unequivocally to the person that creates it. But Eggy's sentence is not about a creator having a right to own what he creates, but instead about "Will we force them". Not that the WT shouldn't do it because it is stealing and therefore wrong, no, her thoughts are about can we do it, not should we do it.

 

Her decision to allow distribution of Objects has nothing to do with "Stealing is Wrong", instead it is entirely based on the fact that the WT cannot "enforce" their will on the rest of the World as they had before. So instead of being seen as weak for not being able to carry out it's edicts, she wants the WT to be strong and generous for lifting the Edict of Theft. The quote makes it clear that giving up Objects is a political move, and the WT saving face. It's never good to have a law that is unenforceable.

 

And by the way I do agree with Kahlika. A law is a law. It doesn't matter whether the law serves the Shadow or not. Since the WT had no checks or balances on itself, it was capable of creating what ever law they chose to, and fear of the OP made most of Randland go along with the laws that the WT made, whether or not the law was morally wrong.

 

I told myself not to get involved but, I have to defend Egwene here.

No, she isn't trying to argue it from a moral position of "do we have the right" she has 2 reasons to not do that in this quote

1) The objects are potentially dangerous, and someone capable has to secure them (compare it to items that can spontaneously explode - like fireworks, we have trained, capable people keep them safe.)

2) Her audience would not agree to a moral claim of wrongdoing - she tailors her argument to her audience - she is politicallys avvy here. The other As would never agree, and most likely stop listening, if she tried to convince them it was wrong. We don't KNOW if she thinks its wrong, but the quote doesn't tell us either. Regardless, she is pragmatic and uses the reasoning and arguments that can make things (more) right - with the people that she has to convince.

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1) The AS are not the only people in the World that are capable of using or studying them. The WT is simply the only group of people that the AS know of that can use and study them. The only reason that the AS had not learned of the the other groups was due to their own arrogance.

I think the Aes Sedai have a legitimate claim to objects that were originally created by Aes Sedai, unless they were expressly given to someone else. Let's say that Tylin had found the Bowl of the Winds before Nynaeve and Elayne and refused to let them use it--then the weather would never have been fixed. Whatever ter'angreal remain from the Age of Legends should be used for the good of all, and the Tower has a better chance of putting them to good use. It should also be noted that the doorway ter'angreal remained in Mayene's possession until a Mayener ruler traded it to Tear 300 years ago. Mayene allowed Aes Sedai to study it, so the Tower obviously was aware of its existence. This suggests the Tower either allowed Mayene to keep it or failed to make Mayene hand it over.

 

I'm no fan of Egwene, but at least she's taking a step in the right direction here and recognizes that the Tower needs to change with the times. It's not like the other groups of channelers aren't also looking out for their own interests above everything else. I don't have high hopes for the older Aes Sedai (Romanda, Lelaine et al) ever improving, but among the novices we have down-to-earth women like Sharina and girls who'll train with Wise Ones and Sea Folk.

 

One thing I really liked about ToM was that Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne all came up with ideas to improve the Tower that reflected their own personalities and experiences. Egwene, having studied with the Wise Ones and always been one to soak up knowledge/ideas from others, saw the need to ally with and learn from other channelers. Nynaeve, a passionate person who is devoted to helping others, thought Aes Sedai should stop trying to be emotionless and serve humanity rather than the Tower. Elayne who is Queen thought of how to make Healing and Traveling available to the general population. Together they can change the Tower into what it should be.

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After reading ToM, I decided to reread the entire series so I can refresh my memory. In tEotW there was a part where I thought Perrin described Egwene perfectly. She usually acts like this, but right away after reading it, I thought of the part where Rand comes to her and tells her he plans to break the remaining seals. I always thought that she was against it from the start because Rand suggested it. But maybe it's because she didn't decide to do it first and she figured she would be making all the decisions. Tell me what you think of this quote.

 

tEotW: Chapter 22, Page 331

He blinked in surprise. She was waiting for his answer. Waiting for him to tell her what to do. It had never occurred to him that she would look to him to take the lead. Egwene never liked doing what someone else had planned out, and she never let anyone tell her what to do. Except maybe the Wisdom, and he thought she balked at that.

 

Sorry if I did the quote structure wrong. I've never done it before.

 

I do have to mention real quick that I thought it was funny that while I was reading tGH and when Moraine was walking down to see the Amyrlin and she saw Egwene run passed she thought that Egwene had the potential to become the Amyrlin one day. I'll have to go and find the quote cause I can't remember where it's at.

Edit: Found the quote. I found it on my reader, so the page might not be the same.

tGH: Chapter 4, page 75

From the corner of her eye, Moraine saw Egwene, far down the side hall, disappearing hurriedly around a corner. A stooped shaped in a leather jerkin, head down and arms loaded with bundles, shambled at her heels. Moraine permitted herself a small smile, quickly masked. If the girl shows as much initiative in Tar Valon, she thought wryly, she will sit in the Amyrlin Seat one day. If she can learn to control that initiative. If there is an Amyrlin Seat left on which to sit.
Edited by payday1999

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1) The AS are not the only people in the World that are capable of using or studying them. The WT is simply the only group of people that the AS know of that can use and study them. The only reason that the AS had not learned of the the other groups was due to their own arrogance.

I think the Aes Sedai have a legitimate claim to objects that were originally created by Aes Sedai, unless they were expressly given to someone else. Let's say that Tylin had found the Bowl of the Winds before Nynaeve and Elayne and refused to let them use it--then the weather would never have been fixed. Whatever ter'angreal remain from the Age of Legends should be used for the good of all, and the Tower has a better chance of putting them to good use. It should also be noted that the doorway ter'angreal remained in Mayene's possession until a Mayener ruler traded it to Tear 300 years ago. Mayene allowed Aes Sedai to study it, so the Tower obviously was aware of its existence. This suggests the Tower either allowed Mayene to keep it or failed to make Mayene hand it over.

 

I'm no fan of Egwene, but at least she's taking a step in the right direction here and recognizes that the Tower needs to change with the times. It's not like the other groups of channelers aren't also looking out for their own interests above everything else. I don't have high hopes for the older Aes Sedai (Romanda, Lelaine et al) ever improving, but among the novices we have down-to-earth women like Sharina and girls who'll train with Wise Ones and Sea Folk.

 

One thing I really liked about ToM was that Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne all came up with ideas to improve the Tower that reflected their own personalities and experiences. Egwene, having studied with the Wise Ones and always been one to soak up knowledge/ideas from others, saw the need to ally with and learn from other channelers. Nynaeve, a passionate person who is devoted to helping others, thought Aes Sedai should stop trying to be emotionless and serve humanity rather than the Tower. Elayne who is Queen thought of how to make Healing and Traveling available to the general population. Together they can change the Tower into what it should be.

 

I agree that Eggy is taking the WT in the right direction, but I believe, based on what we see her thinking during her PoV's, that the only reason she is doing it is because she has seen that the WT (as it is) is obsolete. The Kin, WF's, and WO's all have greater numbers than the WT (even before the Purge) and had done many things with the OP that the WT had never considered. Once the WO's came west and the Sea Folk started asking for land and the Kin were run out of ED by the Seanchan, there was little else that Eggy could do if she wanted the WT to retain any standing among the Westlands post-TG.

 

I totally disagree with your first paragraph though. If the WT had actually behaved as the Aes Sedai (from whom they stole the name) that created the Objects behaved (public servants with an interest toward the greater good of common as well as high) then they might, yes might, have some claim to the items. But when we look at what we have been told of the WT AS, they do not behave like the original AS at all. The only thing that they have in common is their name and the ability to channel. Most of the Objects of the Power that were created during the AoL were made for the common people to use, non-channelers, which is why there are a lot more ter'angreal than there are angreal and sa'angreal. During the AoL there were Standing Flows that allowed non-channelers access to the OP to power the ter'angreal. If the Objects had been made for only AS use originally then I would conceed that the WT's claim on them was stronger, but these things were made for everyone not just AS. So, basically, the AS made them, handed them out (or exchanged them for services, more likely) to everyone, then 400 years later, the AS that are starting the WT say "Mine, Mine, Mine, and none of you can have any." How does that make their claim legitimate? I don't necessarily think that the Tower has the best chance of putting them to good use either since study of them is sporadic and rarely done apparently, in fact no one has really done it for over 20 years.

 

And as far as the Redstone Doorway goes, if it were me and I was the first First of Mayene to have access to it, one of my 3 questions would have been how to retain possession of it, presuming that I had been told about the WT law before going in.

 

1) The objects are potentially dangerous, and someone capable has to secure them (compare it to items that can spontaneously explode - like fireworks, we have trained, capable people keep them safe.)

 

If the objects cannot be used except by OP wielders then how are they potentially dangerous to the average Randlander? Fireworks only require a match to cause them to explode, what are the chances that the Black Balefire Rod could hurt anyone when held by someone that cannot channel? Well, you could probably thump someone with it, but the AS are not taking away all the sticks laying around that could serve the same purpose. And while I do not know how easy fireworks are to come by where you live, but I can drive less than an hour and purchase enough of them to blow up your average convenience store. As a matter of fact in my state any 12 year old can. There has not been a "dangerous" ter'angreal that does not require channeling to use in the books, so far. And until we are shown one or more, I cannot accept the excuse for stealing of "Oh, you might hurt yourself or someone else with that chunk of glass-like stone that you can't use, so I'll take it and keep it safe." It just doesn't hold water. We have seen that the WT completely underestimates the number of channelers in Randland, they had thought themselves the largest group for eons, so the excuse that some Wilder might come along and pick it up doesn't really hold up either since the WT had absolutely no idea how many Wilders and Released WT Initiates that there were. While the chances of a Wilder picking up an Object and hurting themselves or someone else with it are much greater than the WT knew, the law and attitude was based on what they knew so the real risk cannot be taken into account when trying to excuse the WT's stance on this. Our arguments for or against have to be limited to what they could have known when making the law. I just don't see how hoarding as many Objects as they can is an example of keeping people safe. I believe that the entire WT 'keeping people safe' was a sham to excuse theft of items that could potentially make the WT more powerful.

Edited by Ishadar

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After reading ToM, I decided to reread the entire series so I can refresh my memory. In tEotW there was a part where I thought Perrin described Egwene perfectly. She usually acts like this, but right away after reading it, I thought of the part where Rand comes to her and tells her he plans to break the remaining seals. I always thought that she was against it from the start because Rand suggested it. But maybe it's because she didn't decide to do it first and she figured she would be making all the decisions. Tell me what you think of this quote.

 

tEotW: Chapter 22, Page 331

He blinked in surprise. She was waiting for his answer. Waiting for him to tell her what to do. It had never occurred to him that she would look to him to take the lead. Egwene never liked doing what someone else had planned out, and she never let anyone tell her what to do. Except maybe the Wisdom, and he thought she balked at that.

 

Sorry if I did the quote structure wrong. I've never done it before.

 

I do have to mention real quick that I thought it was funny that while I was reading tGH and when Moraine was walking down to see the Amyrlin and she saw Egwene run passed she thought that Egwene had the potential to become the Amyrlin one day. I'll have to go and find the quote cause I can't remember where it's at.

Edit: Found the quote. I found it on my reader, so the page might not be the same.

tGH: Chapter 4, page 75

From the corner of her eye, Moraine saw Egwene, far down the side hall, disappearing hurriedly around a corner. A stooped shaped in a leather jerkin, head down and arms loaded with bundles, shambled at her heels. Moraine permitted herself a small smile, quickly masked. If the girl shows as much initiative in Tar Valon, she thought wryly, she will sit in the Amyrlin Seat one day. If she can learn to control that initiative. If there is an Amyrlin Seat left on which to sit.

 

Welcome to the boards payday!

Good quote. I've already done my Egwene bashing earlier in the thread so I've been trying to lay off lately but I think that quote gives a pretty accurate insight into Egwene's personality throughout the series and why her character often comes off as very unlikable even when she has impressive accomplishments.

 

FYI - There is a Preview Post option next to "Add Reply" so you can see how your quotes look before you post.

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Egwene worked very hard at doing what she was about in proper fashion. Studying with the Wise Ones, she wore Aiel clothes; she might even be trying to adopt Aiel customs, for all he knew. It would be like her. But she worked hard at being a proper Aes Sedai all the time, even if she was only one of the Accepted. Aes Sedai usually kept a rein on their tempers, but they never ever gave anything away that they wanted to hide.
I think this encapsulates the whole of her, both the bad and the good.

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1) The objects are potentially dangerous, and someone capable has to secure them (compare it to items that can spontaneously explode - like fireworks, we have trained, capable people keep them safe.)

 

If the objects cannot be used except by OP wielders then how are they potentially dangerous to the average Randlander?

We know from the books (sorry, no quote right now, I can't remember which of the many books its from) that some ter'angreal can be used by only channelers - some by both genders, some only by one gender - and some can be used by anyone. The latter are like the normal fireworks we can buy (depending on local regulations etc), and the former are the ones that only pyrotechnicians can use. The latter type is potentially dangerous to anyone.

The former type, the ones that require a channeler) is still potentially dangerous - imagine if you will someone with the right "remote detonation code" - aka a wilder - accidentally triggering a potentially catastrophic reaction.

Also, accepting the worlds premises, channelers are (westlands, not aiel, sea folk) dangerous unless trained. Add to that the fear that any male channeler / false dragon got a hold of some of those objects of power (rewind time to around when Rand et al met Moiraine for the first time).

 

Now ask yoursel, as an average randlander, would you agree that the organized pyrotechnicians guild should handle all the explosives and tell everyone else when and where some can be used? Anyone fiddling with it is crazy or dangerous (if the perspectives we get of average randlanders reaction and thoughts and assumptions hold true) or someone that needs to be brought under control.

From what I recall, the 2 primary reasons the WT claims *'angreal are;

Ter'angreal - Study / safekeeping when not known, safekeeping when known and dangerous.

(Sa')Angreal - Usage and keeping them out of the wrong hands.

Now I won't accept any specific AS's word or POV to contradict, just liek Elaida wasn't the personification of the WT (same goes for any BA for instance). I willa ccept that the WT's motives have become corrupted over time, but that doesn't really change the fact that the original reasons are still valid (well up untill current time +/- a year or so).

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It all just makes me wonder what Robert Jordan would think of the section of the audience who hate so many of his women characters. His writing is deep and complex, like life, as evidenced by his characterizations and the growth the young people of the Two Rivers have had over the course of the series. When they left the Two Rivers they were all youths; they were naive and innocent. They survived constant danger and overcame multiple obstacles of all kinds.

Jordan clearly understands what makes a person tick in the context of their world and experiences--it is obvious from the depth of this writings. Would he laugh and speculate as to the demographics of who loves/hates whom? :aiel::wheel:

Edited by Jillain Sanche

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It all just makes me wonder what Robert Jordan would think of the section of the audience who hate so many of his women characters. His writing is deep and complex, like life, as evidenced by his characterizations and the growth the young people of the Two Rivers have had over the course of the series. When they left the Two Rivers they were all youths; they were naive and innocent. They survived constant danger and overcame multiple obstacles of all kinds.

Jordan clearly understands what makes a person tick in the context of their world and experiences--it is obvious from the depth of this writings. Would he laugh and speculate as to the demographics of who loves/hates whom? :aiel::wheel:

 

I think he would simply be happy that he was able to evoke such deep emotions form flesh and blood people over figments of his imagination. I have heard many writers say that it does not matter if you love a character or hate a character, the point is to make you feel something about the character. I do not doubt that RJ specifically wrote certain Light-side characters in such a way as to evoke hate or disgust, just as he wrote some with the specific intent of having reader's love the characters. He may have been surprised at which characters get hate and which get love from the readers, but I can't see him trying to break it into demographics.

 

But I am trying to figure out what you meant by "so many of his female characters". There are only 2 females that I dislike (or hate if you prefer, although disgust describes it more accurately) and those are Egwene and Elayne. And really Elayne only since Salidar. And considering that he wrote Egwene as completely unapologetically hypocritical, I would have to think that he expected at least some of us to be disgusted with her behavior when compared to her thoughts. He also made sure that we knew from tEotW that she carries the idea of Female Chauvinism to new heights, and since other characters have had the chance through out the series to grow out of these failings while Eggy retains them, I see no other conclusion than that he intended to create ambivalence at least among the readers toward her.

 

In contrast 6 of my 10 Fav Char's are female.

Edited by Ishadar

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It all just makes me wonder what Robert Jordan would think of the section of the audience who hate so many of his women characters. His writing is deep and complex, like life, as evidenced by his characterizations and the growth the young people of the Two Rivers have had over the course of the series. When they left the Two Rivers they were all youths; they were naive and innocent. They survived constant danger and overcame multiple obstacles of all kinds.

Jordan clearly understands what makes a person tick in the context of their world and experiences--it is obvious from the depth of this writings. Would he laugh and speculate as to the demographics of who loves/hates whom? :aiel::wheel:

 

While I'm obviously a Jordan fan, or I wouldn't be here, if you find his writing, "deep and complex, like life" maybe you need to read more.

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You do realise that Age of Legends Aes Sedai engaged in similar politicking on a much greater level. I believe Mesaana says to Alviarin (can't remember the book) that Elaida's plot to kidnap various rulers "almost rivalled the ajah" at times?

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1) The AS are not the only people in the World that are capable of using or studying them. The WT is simply the only group of people that the AS know of that can use and study them. The only reason that the AS had not learned of the the other groups was due to their own arrogance.

I think the Aes Sedai have a legitimate claim to objects that were originally created by Aes Sedai, unless they were expressly given to someone else. Let's say that Tylin had found the Bowl of the Winds before Nynaeve and Elayne and refused to let them use it--then the weather would never have been fixed. Whatever ter'angreal remain from the Age of Legends should be used for the good of all, and the Tower has a better chance of putting them to good use. It should also be noted that the doorway ter'angreal remained in Mayene's possession until a Mayener ruler traded it to Tear 300 years ago. Mayene allowed Aes Sedai to study it, so the Tower obviously was aware of its existence. This suggests the Tower either allowed Mayene to keep it or failed to make Mayene hand it over.

 

I'm no fan of Egwene, but at least she's taking a step in the right direction here and recognizes that the Tower needs to change with the times. It's not like the other groups of channelers aren't also looking out for their own interests above everything else. I don't have high hopes for the older Aes Sedai (Romanda, Lelaine et al) ever improving, but among the novices we have down-to-earth women like Sharina and girls who'll train with Wise Ones and Sea Folk.

 

One thing I really liked about ToM was that Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne all came up with ideas to improve the Tower that reflected their own personalities and experiences. Egwene, having studied with the Wise Ones and always been one to soak up knowledge/ideas from others, saw the need to ally with and learn from other channelers. Nynaeve, a passionate person who is devoted to helping others, thought Aes Sedai should stop trying to be emotionless and serve humanity rather than the Tower. Elayne who is Queen thought of how to make Healing and Traveling available to the general population. Together they can change the Tower into what it should be.

 

I agree that Eggy is taking the WT in the right direction, but I believe, based on what we see her thinking during her PoV's, that the only reason she is doing it is because she has seen that the WT (as it is) is obsolete. The Kin, WF's, and WO's all have greater numbers than the WT (even before the Purge) and had done many things with the OP that the WT had never considered. Once the WO's came west and the Sea Folk started asking for land and the Kin were run out of ED by the Seanchan, there was little else that Eggy could do if she wanted the WT to retain any standing among the Westlands post-TG.

 

I totally disagree with your first paragraph though. If the WT had actually behaved as the Aes Sedai (from whom they stole the name) that created the Objects behaved (public servants with an interest toward the greater good of common as well as high) then they might, yes might, have some claim to the items. But when we look at what we have been told of the WT AS, they do not behave like the original AS at all. The only thing that they have in common is their name and the ability to channel. Most of the Objects of the Power that were created during the AoL were made for the common people to use, non-channelers, which is why there are a lot more ter'angreal than there are angreal and sa'angreal. During the AoL there were Standing Flows that allowed non-channelers access to the OP to power the ter'angreal. If the Objects had been made for only AS use originally then I would conceed that the WT's claim on them was stronger, but these things were made for everyone not just AS. So, basically, the AS made them, handed them out (or exchanged them for services, more likely) to everyone, then 400 years later, the AS that are starting the WT say "Mine, Mine, Mine, and none of you can have any." How does that make their claim legitimate? I don't necessarily think that the Tower has the best chance of putting them to good use either since study of them is sporadic and rarely done apparently, in fact no one has really done it for over 20 years.

 

And as far as the Redstone Doorway goes, if it were me and I was the first First of Mayene to have access to it, one of my 3 questions would have been how to retain possession of it, presuming that I had been told about the WT law before going in.

 

1) The objects are potentially dangerous, and someone capable has to secure them (compare it to items that can spontaneously explode - like fireworks, we have trained, capable people keep them safe.)

 

If the objects cannot be used except by OP wielders then how are they potentially dangerous to the average Randlander? Fireworks only require a match to cause them to explode, what are the chances that the Black Balefire Rod could hurt anyone when held by someone that cannot channel? Well, you could probably thump someone with it, but the AS are not taking away all the sticks laying around that could serve the same purpose. And while I do not know how easy fireworks are to come by where you live, but I can drive less than an hour and purchase enough of them to blow up your average convenience store. As a matter of fact in my state any 12 year old can. There has not been a "dangerous" ter'angreal that does not require channeling to use in the books, so far. And until we are shown one or more, I cannot accept the excuse for stealing of "Oh, you might hurt yourself or someone else with that chunk of glass-like stone that you can't use, so I'll take it and keep it safe." It just doesn't hold water. We have seen that the WT completely underestimates the number of channelers in Randland, they had thought themselves the largest group for eons, so the excuse that some Wilder might come along and pick it up doesn't really hold up either since the WT had absolutely no idea how many Wilders and Released WT Initiates that there were. While the chances of a Wilder picking up an Object and hurting themselves or someone else with it are much greater than the WT knew, the law and attitude was based on what they knew so the real risk cannot be taken into account when trying to excuse the WT's stance on this. Our arguments for or against have to be limited to what they could have known when making the law. I just don't see how hoarding as many Objects as they can is an example of keeping people safe. I believe that the entire WT 'keeping people safe' was a sham to excuse theft of items that could potentially make the WT more powerful.

 

But some can be used. There are Ter'angreal that do not require the one power to be activated, you can't just say "well we haven't seen a dangerous one so they don't exist". How are they to know w/o study which type it is. I do agree that other groups of channelers besides AS could possibly be able to study them as well. It would seem the WT has the most experience in this matter though.

 

It is totally unfair for you to compare present day AS to those from the AoL. Different challenges and times (you know little things like helping pull the world back together after the breaking) call for different measures. Have they done a great job? Not by a longshot but all of these accusations of solely being motivated by greed and power or calling them witches is ludicrous. The majority we have seen, some more effectively than others, believe they are acting for the greater good.

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But some can be used. There are Ter'angreal that do not require the one power to be activated, you can't just say "well we haven't seen a dangerous one so they don't exist". How are they to know w/o study which type it is. I do agree that other groups of channelers besides AS could possibly be able to study them as well. It would seem the WT has the most experience in this matter though.

 

It is totally unfair for you to compare present day AS to those from the AoL. Different challenges and times (you know little things like helping pull the world back together after the breaking) call for different measures. Have they done a great job? Not by a longshot but all of these accusations of solely being motivated by greed and power or calling them witches is ludicrous. The majority we have seen, some more effectively than others, believe they are acting for the greater good.

 

It is not unfair at all. They want they name, then they should have to live up to the standards of those the name were historically given to. Masons (to which RJ belonged) have to do that, and the abbeys and nunneries that RJ modeled the WT after have to live up to the standards set down centuries ago, why shouldn't the WT have the same judgement placed on them. If they want to call themselves Aes Sedai, then they should live up to the standards of Aes Sedai. That is what fraternal and maternal organizations are meant to do, hold one to a specific standard, either different or higher, than those of the who are not members.

The women that created the White Tower may have been Aes Sedai in the AoL who survived the Breaking, but the organization that they created post-Breaking which would inhabit the White Tower should never have been referred to as "Aes Sedai" if the women that were to be taught and raised there were not taught and trained and raised in the exact same way as the founders had been. I will give a caveat about men, since we do not know if men were involved in the raising of an AoL female Aes Sedai, I cannot say that they should have kept that part of the ritual or training, but everything else should have been. Instead they chose and kept the name Aes Sedai as much for political reasons as any intent to hold to the standards of the original organization.

 

If any group of people in Randland should be held to the standard set down by the original founders, I would think that it would be the one that holds storehouses of knowledge, some of which go back to the founding of the WT. And the one's that claim the prerogatives that the founders enjoyed. The whole point is that the WT Aes Sedai think that they are due the respect that AoL AS were given, but they have not even tried to do the things that the AoL AS did to earn that respect. And the attitude of "it's an Object of the Power, so it's mine, mine, mine." is really just an example of that.

 

I can't find anywhere in my post that I referred to them as "witches" but I agree, I think that the Wilder that trained Cads and gave her the paralys-net is the closest that we have seen in the series that could be referred to as a "witch".

 

Just because an AS belives a thing does not make it true. They may think that they are acting for the "greater good" by sitting in their stronghold and making supplicants for aid come to them, but if they truly think that then that proves your point about intelligence wrong. For 3000 years they have had it shown to them many times that they were wrong, but they either were to dumb to see it, or chose not to see it. Take your pick, stupid or selfish and self-serving? Which one, because they are one or the other. You can't have it both ways, that they are both intelligent and trying to serve the greater good. They have the information available to them, so either they can't understand the info or are ignoring it because this is what serves them best.

Edited by Ishadar

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Yes. Just look at the ajahs. They never do anything constructive. Greens: should be in borderlands, Reds: 60 women max, Whites: waste of space, Browns: put knowledge to good use, tell people about what they find, Yellows: not doing ANYTHING, Blues: repair the WT/AS image, Grays: I don't know what they do most of the time only 12 countries that need an advisor to the monarch, no noble needs an advisor no matter how powerful they are, there aren't that many treaties to make.

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But some can be used. There are Ter'angreal that do not require the one power to be activated, you can't just say "well we haven't seen a dangerous one so they don't exist". How are they to know w/o study which type it is. I do agree that other groups of channelers besides AS could possibly be able to study them as well. It would seem the WT has the most experience in this matter though.

 

It is totally unfair for you to compare present day AS to those from the AoL. Different challenges and times (you know little things like helping pull the world back together after the breaking) call for different measures. Have they done a great job? Not by a longshot but all of these accusations of solely being motivated by greed and power or calling them witches is ludicrous. The majority we have seen, some more effectively than others, believe they are acting for the greater good.

 

It is not unfair at all. They want they name, then they should have to live up to the standards of those the name were historically given to. Masons (to which RJ belonged) have to do that, and the abbeys and nunneries that RJ modeled the WT after have to live up to the standards set down centuries ago, why shouldn't the WT have the same judgement placed on them. If they want to call themselves Aes Sedai, then they should live up to the standards of Aes Sedai. That is what fraternal and maternal organizations are meant to do, hold one to a specific standard, either different or higher, than those of the who are not members.

The women that created the White Tower may have been Aes Sedai in the AoL who survived the Breaking, but the organization that they created post-Breaking which would inhabit the White Tower should never have been referred to as "Aes Sedai" if the women that were to be taught and raised there were not taught and trained and raised in the exact same way as the founders had been. I will give a caveat about men, since we do not know if men were involved in the raising of an AoL female Aes Sedai, I cannot say that they should have kept that part of the ritual or training, but everything else should have been. Instead they chose and kept the name Aes Sedai as much for political reasons as any intent to hold to the standards of the original organization.

 

If any group of people in Randland should be held to the standard set down by the original founders, I would think that it would be the one that holds storehouses of knowledge, some of which go back to the founding of the WT. And the one's that claim the prerogatives that the founders enjoyed. The whole point is that the WT Aes Sedai think that they are due the respect that AoL AS were given, but they have not even tried to do the things that the AoL AS did to earn that respect. And the attitude of "it's an Object of the Power, so it's mine, mine, mine." is really just an example of that.

 

I can't find anywhere in my post that I referred to them as "witches" but I agree, I think that the Wilder that trained Cads and gave her the paralys-net is the closest that we have seen in the series that could be referred to as a "witch".

 

Just because an AS belives a thing does not make it true. They may think that they are acting for the "greater good" by sitting in their stronghold and making supplicants for aid come to them, but if they truly think that then that proves your point about intelligence wrong. For 3000 years they have had it shown to them many times that they were wrong, but they either were to dumb to see it, or chose not to see it. Take your pick, stupid or selfish and self-serving? Which one, because they are one or the other. You can't have it both ways, that they are both intelligent and trying to serve the greater good. They have the information available to them, so either they can't understand the info or are ignoring it because this is what serves them best.

 

 

Some good points there, I will agree. I still don't think they can be graded on the same scale though. One organization lived in a virtual nirvana and the other has struggled trying to pull society back to a semblance of organization. They are essentially coming out of a "dark ages" period. The "witches" comment was aimed at Babuada the Whitecloak not you...

Edited by Suttree

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For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

A perfect summary of why I can't stand Rand fanboys. Frequent hypocritical criticisms of other characters, but it's OK if Rand does the same thing (or worse). Please try to see the world w/out Rand colored glasses on.

 

Nice rebuttal to your drivel early on, but I'll take a shot as well. Point for deluded point.

 

1. Instinctively opposing Rand?

 

She doesn't instinctively oppose Rand, she instinctively opposes breaking the seals. Which is completely sane given what most in Randland believe. Does Moiraine smash the seals she finds? Does Rand earlier in the book? Does Taim? Do Elayne and Nynaeve? No, no, and no. You rightly criticize Egwene for not trying to come up with an alternative plan (or maybe it is just poor writing that hasn't shown that to us), but Rand doesn't have a plan either, yet he is determined to press forward without one. Only Min seems to be actively trying to figure it out. Why don't you criticize Rand for the same thing? I smell a fanboy/hypocrite. Lastly, all the reports she has on Rand (from Nynaeve, and anyone who has been around him lately) is that he is violent, tyrannical, and borderline insane (as Tam rightly said). She has no way to know the changes he's undergone. SHE is the one that wants to talk about it, and he refuses and rushes off and then does nothing for 22 days.

 

 

2. WT Control of all female channelers?

 

She is doing nothing of the kind. She is setting up an exchange program that will benefit all parties and every society. She entirely has let the Kin and the Wise Ones and the Windfinders go their own way. She hasn't tried to impose AS rules on them in any way at all. Unlike many other AS we've read about. Seriously, the fact that you don't get this makes me think you are not worth responding to.

 

3. Egwene's head is ugly?

 

No, it isn't. Or at least not always. In Ch. 3 we see that she can't think of him as a criminal (though Rand does see himself so), nor the Dragon reborn, but Rand al'Thor. She's put herself on the line for him a bunch of times (Fal Dara, Tear, Cairhien).

 

BTW, is was Siuan who thought Nynaeve was spending to much time with Rand (her POV), not Egwene. And again, she DID try to talk about it, but Rand refused. By the way, why do you think Rand is right? LTT got it wrong, has stated that the women may have been right to deny him aid, and admitted he has no plan. And by the way, she IS Amyrlin. If he's going to be her Warder, she CAN order him around. And he is going to have to trust her first.

 

Still, I hated the way Gawyn/Egwene thing was written (and it was poor). The whole "I would have bonded him earlier if he knew he loved me" was beyond stupid, but I blame the writing.

 

4. Egwene always thinks she knows best, and has only gotten lucky to gain her position?

 

Egwene has been schooled extensively by some of the best teachers in the world. She's been schooled by the some of the best of the Wise Ones (Amys, Bair, Melaine). By Moiraine in her early teachings and in Tear and in the Waste. She's gotten some politics 101 from Siuan (one of the best political Amyrlin's around), from Leane (almost as good a schemer as Siuan), and from Elayne (who learned from Morgase who learned from Thom). She may be young, but she has had good teachers, and has seen a lot of different cultures close up (Two Rivers, Fal Dara, Falme, Seanchan, Tear, Aiel Waste, Cairhein, Tar Valon). She's probably more well traveled than most sisters who are older. She often accepts advice when it is good (Siuan, even Gawyn) and she definitely IS taken aback a bit when Elayne and Nynaeve don't agree with her about Rand.

 

Plus, she gained her position through a lot of skill, determination, and self-sacrifice. She's earned that stole. She was willing to die rather than accept a Tower divided. People love Galad for his sacrifice with the Whitecloaks, but his certainties that he always knows the right thing are a sun beside's Egwene's candle.

 

 

5. Crazed non-sense from you here. All major characters accept that Rand is always right and should not be questioned? The Aiel beat him up on a regular basis. The Wise Ones certainly thinks he needs to be guided. As do Cadsuane. As does Siuan. Moiraine realizes early that he needs to free to dance to his own song. Even Nynaeve doesn't really get there until ToM/tGS. Plus, you miss the plain fact that if the other characters would have stepped aside and not questioned Rand, or tried to help him, we'd have Darth Rand and the world would be doomed.

 

Heck, he got Mat and Avi killed with his attack on Caemlyn. He could have saved Mo but didn't. He needed Cadsuane to save his bacon (how many times now: Fain in the fog, Far Madding). If Bashere hadn't jumped all over him in Altara, he'd probably have killed everyone with Callandor. And he ignored the advice of every sane advisor he has to go home before he did it. Yet, you think everyone in the series should (and has) bowed to him.

 

And the idea that we all think Egwene shouldn't be questioned is mind blowing. Of course she should. Her hypocrisies on oath's of fealty drive me batty. And in some other areas too. The difference is I rag on both Egwene and Rand for: not addressing the BT (though Rand does blow HER off); not helping Lan (though Rand does have more resources); and not planning better for the LB or how to break the seals. You just take one side.

 

6. Ta'veren.

 

We've seen tons of people in the series swept up by Rand's ta'veren effect (or Perrin's or Mat's). Why is it crazy to think someone else could be? Now, I agree she should trust Nynaeve more, but they have their own issues that make it hard for Eggy to defer to her.

 

7. Sexism.

 

Yes, she is sexist, but so is the whole world. And for good reason. The male channelers broke the world. That's where the sexism comes from, and 3,000 years of women only channelers running things. The WO's have similar thoughts about the Clan Chiefs. And the Windfinders. What about Far Madding? Or Altara? Totally sexist. But the fact that you don't seem to grasp where the sexism came from is breathtaking in it's lack of comprehension.

 

8. Perrin in T'A'R.

 

She isn't trying to tie him up. Brandon has already confirmed this. Again, the way it was written was poor, so I'll forgive you for thinking what you did. But BS has already said she was going to set him aside someplace safe, not leave him there. OK?

 

9. Bitch toward Gawyn.

 

OK. You've got me here. But, then I didn't really mind, since it was Gawyn. Still, her actions were awful.

 

10. Help for the Borderlanders.

 

Again, Rand didn't send help either, and wasn't going to, until he saw Maradon himself, and he waited 20+ days to do that. Why the hell didn't he just show up right after Ch. 3 and save all those people, then go to Bandar Eban? Seriously, what good was feeding Bandar Eban if Maradon was overrun? They'd all be in a cookpot anyway! He had more resources. Has he sent Lan aid after promising he would? No. Has he helped Arafel or Kandor? Doesn't look like it. But you love him and call her a bitch for doing the same thing. Are you sexist, or just blind?

 

You have a point. The fact that the Borderlands didn't get more help from the Dragon of the AS was infuriating. But yet, you only point the finger at Egwene, and not Rand (though he had more resources and more ability to help).

 

"Only the Messiah would fail to help the King of Malkier unless there was good reason for it!"

 

Plus, Egwene is probably worried about sending out a lot of her strength with the Seanchan about. A not unreasonable position given recent events, yes?

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Look, I'm not saying Egwene is a saint, she isn't. She's often stubborn, arrogant, and wrong-headed. But so are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane, Lan, and just about everyone else we get a POV from except for Min or Thom.

 

Again, Mr. Fanboy, take of the Rand colored glasses.

 

Actually, all Aes Sedais should know that breaking the seal does not mean the end of the world. Remember, the Dark one was free for the duration of the War of Power. As toe someone earlier saying the Egwene was chosen by the Aes Amryllin to lead, well, we can also say that Rand is chosen by the Pattern to lead. Between Suian and the Pattern, I'll put my trust in the Pattern. And, Rand did send help to the Borderland. He only comes personally when he has time. The problem with Egwene is that she is a part of an organization, the White Tower. Like every organzation, it starts out with a good purpose, "To defend the people from the Shadows." But after a while, the purpose is lost. Now, she only thinks of ways to continue the White Tower instead of its original purpose. Some might think that Egwene is speacial because she has a special talent that Aes Sedai has not seen in hundreds of years. Well, we can also say the Nynaeve's healing of madness is even more rare. It has not been seen period, even in the AOL.

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I think Egwene's fault is that she always think of "I have to be the one helping Rand" from the beginning. Whether it is good or bad intention/result, it becomes almost the main drive of her purpose. I have just reread TDR, and in her Acceptance test, in all 3 of the ter'angreal, they all shown how she wanted to help Rand, and in the end she had to abandon the notion in order to complete the test. In the end of second test:

"You are washed clean of false pride," Elaida intoned. "You are washed clean of false ambition. You come to us washed clean, in heart and soul."

 

 

The words "false ambition" strike me as interesting choice of word here. I always have a feeling that she uses the excuse to "help Rand" to do everything she deems as necessary, even if it means opposing the Dragon Reborn. In a sense, it's her (false) ambition that she has yet to removed from her mind.

 

In the beginning of the book, she hated how AS manipulate people to do what they wanted them to do. However, in the end she became one and did exactly the same manipulation with "must do so and so" as an excuse, so long she feels she is in control of the events. So it seems, it is right to do certain "bad" things as long as she is in control (directly or indirectly), but it's not right for others do that if she is not in control. At least that's how I felt of Egwene, a control freak.

 

When she was the adventurous novice/acceptance, I liked her and the story about her (and the supergirls). But, late in the story, I feel that the among the three supergirls, only Nynaeve still in my enjoyment /liking list.

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you know the more I think of it the more lucky egwene is, not skillful, I think she fluked out majorly by not having mogh or cyndane set up shop in the tower. But rather mesaana who kinda sucks at life, except in schools and such but she has done nothing of impact that we know about.

 

I think mogh or cyndane would have wrapped egwene around their fingers since they are supposedly the masters of tar

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Well I actually like how all the characters have faults, everyone seems to have a real dislike of Egwene (and Elayne and some others). But I just think it makes them more interesting, after all, nobody is perfect. I'm sick of reading books where the 'good guys' are amazing at everything, have no character flaws and act like saints while the 'bad guys' have no redeeming features whatsoever. The real world isn't black and white and it's the shades of grey in the WoT that give the characters their depth and make it so interesting to read.

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Well I actually like how all the characters have faults, everyone seems to have a real dislike of Egwene (and Elayne and some others). But I just think it makes them more interesting, after all, nobody is perfect. I'm sick of reading books where the 'good guys' are amazing at everything, have no character flaws and act like saints while the 'bad guys' have no redeeming features whatsoever. The real world isn't black and white and it's the shades of grey in the WoT that give the characters their depth and make it so interesting to read.

That's a big part of why I love Egwene and Rand as characters. I can dislike them as people (Egwene for most of the series, Rand pretty much from ACOS to the VOG), but as characters, they're great.

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you know the more I think of it the more lucky egwene is, not skillful, I think she fluked out majorly by not having mogh or cyndane set up shop in the tower. But rather mesaana who kinda sucks at life, except in schools and such but she has done nothing of impact that we know about.

 

I think mogh or cyndane would have wrapped egwene around their fingers since they are supposedly the masters of tar

Moghedien, the "master of TAR", couldn't resist the a'dam trick, unlike Egwene, even though Nynaeve by that point had only a few weeks of experience in TAR and no Talent for Dreamwalking. Mesaana overall did better than her IMO, against a much stronger and more experienced opponent (in TAR) too.

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