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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

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Just because one character said that the Guardian mimics a stedding does not mean it works the same way.

 

But that's one source as opposed to none?

 

None? I gave you two direct cited quotes from the text. The fact that you ignore the sources I've given you does not mean they don't exist.

No, it's because your quotes are IRRELEVANT. You've completely failed to establish a difference.

 

I can mimic a cow by making mooing noises but I can't fill a bucket with anything I'd want to put in my mouth.

 

 

Well that's probably the worst comparison possible. Seriously, if you are going to argue at least build a proper argument.

 

Okay, here's a more appropriate analogy. I could mimic your voice. No matter how well I did I still wouldn't sound as much like you as you do. I wouldn't be able to mimic your voice so well that there was no difference.

Yet I could take a photo of something and have a perfect image of it. Your analogy fails.

 

And the Guardian also has the same effect as being burnt out where a channeler can no longer feel the Source. Do you think a burned out man or woman could use a well?

 

You can't feel the source when under the effects of the Guardian or of a Stedding. What's your point?

 

My point is that I doubt a burned out woman would be able to use a well. The Guardian is different in this regard.

I agree, a burned-out woman would be unlikely to be able to use a well. The Guardian is still the same as a Stedding. The sensation is the same - You're unable to sense the source.

 

Taking those things into account, you have provided no evidence that the Guardian doesn't work differently than a stedding. The Guardian is a man made ter'angreal that blocks the Source. A stedding is a natural place in the world where the One Power doesn't work.

 

The Guardian is a ter'angreal designed to have the same effect as a stedding. Stop making crap up and build a proper argument.

 

What "crap" am I making up? I haven't said one thing that isn't true. Maybe you should stop attacking me and build a proper argument yourself. And I doubt the creators of the Guardian intended it to have the same effect as a stedding. It was probably "Hey lets build a ter'angreal that cuts channelers off from the True Source." not "Hey lets build a ter'angreal that turns an area into a stedding."

My argument is very clear. The Stedding operates in the same way as the guardian ter'angreal does. You haven't disproved this, nor supplied a single piece of contrary evidence.

 

Not to mention that people in a stedding feel safe and at peace. And plants seem to grow better in a stedding. And a stedding is inaccessible from Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

The Guardian mimics ONE effect of a Stedding. As I said. Repeatedly.

 

One effect. That is to block the True Source. I am contending that a stedding blocks channeling the One Power at all as well as blocking the Source. That is a different effect.

But that's not what a Stedding does. If you read the BWB, you'll read about the effects a stedding has, i.e. blocking the ability to sense the OP among other nature related aspects.

 

They are two entirely different things. Just because the Guardian mimics one effect of a stedding does not mean it mimics them all. Based on all the differences between the two, I would say the burden of proof is on you. Not me.

 

It doesn't really matter if it mimics the others.

 

Yes, it does. Cutting a channeler off from the Source and blocking the One Power entirely are two different effects. The fact that the Guardian doesn't mimic ALL the effects of a stedding is relevant because it means the two aren't exactly the same.

Yes, but invented effects don't count.

 

Let's analyse the facts here.

1) The Guardian has, as far as we can tell, exactly the same effect as a Stedding in relation to the One Power. While under the effects of either, you cannot so much as sense the Source.

 

No. As far as we can tell the Guardian only shares one characteristic of a stedding and that is to cut off channelers from the True Source.

It shares the same effect in relation to the One Power. Please supply evidence to disprove this, because there is none.

 

2) There is a quote stating that the Guardian works in the same way as a Stedding. The source may not be 100% guaranteed to be right, but there's some form of evidence there anyway.

 

This Wind Finder you keep referencing has no knowledge of the Guardian. She can't even see it when she says this. All she can feel is the effect of it.

The effect she feels is what's important - if it's the same as the sensation in a Stedding of being unable to sense the OP (as though you were burned out). Furthermore, the AS in said PoV is the one who claimed that the Guardian mimicked a Stedding.

What other facts do we know? Diddly-squat.

Ultimately, if you want to be stubborn you can be. However, there's no factual basis you've made clear for claiming that a well would not work in a stedding.

 

You haven't given any factual basis either! "Hey, Pot? Yea, it's Kettle. Just called to say that you're black. See ya!"

 

You're entire argument, so far as I can tell, is based on the comparison of a Wind Finder who is completely ignorant of the workings of the Guardian. She immediately thinks of a stedding because its all she has to compare it to. The fact is that the Guardian does not make Far Madding a stedding simply because one of the effects it has is similar.

 

By the way, at least I've directly quoted passages from the book. Although you seem to be ignoring those. I haven't seen you quote this Wind Finder of yours once. When I get a hold of the book I'll try to find it for you. Maybe that will help you "build a proper argument."

Ah sigh. The facts I've laid out are as follows:

The sensation is the same in a Stedding as when affected by the Guardian.

The effect is described by an AS who appears to have done some research into this (not in FM, as she states that would be impossible, but in the library presumably?) as mimicking a Stedding in the important ways.

 

I'm at uni, my copies of the relevant books are at home. However, I have an excellent memory for the details.

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A bunch of stuff while completely ignoring most of the points I've made.

 

I'm done debating this with you. This thread is way to far off topic and you refuse to address the issues I keep attempting to bring up. AS have lost the making of ter'angreal and most of the knowledge of them. No matter how much one researched the Guardian there is no way she would know everything about it. Of course she would compare it to a stedding as the Guardian's effect is similar to that of a stedding. That DOES NOT mean they are the same thing. I've said several times that it is possible that I am wrong. You don't seem willing to concede that there is a possibility you are. You keep asking me for conclusive proof when I have repeatedly stated that I KNOW there is none. You insist that you've provided a factual basis when you absolutely have not. That the feeling of entering Far Madding is similar to entering a stedding is NOT a factual basis. You accuse me of "inventing" evidence when I've quoted it directly from text. You talk around every point I make without addressing it directly. If this were an actual debate it would have been over a long time ago. If you continue to insist on being destructive and counterproductive then I will simply ignore you.

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Just to keep the argument going, :baalzamon:

 

When Jain Farstrider entered the Stedding, he immediately got well. This implies that weaves do not 'stay' in place, i.e are unravelled. Therefore it stands to reason that weaves cannot be formed, even with a Well. And since that AS (Sarene, I think) said that the Guardian mimicked the Stedding in the important ways, surely it stands to reason that it does not mimic it in others? Barring a quip suggesting the lack of trees or Ogier (Since Sarene is so darn logical all the time), it suggests the difference has something to do with the Power itself.

 

Oh, and since it is likely that Farstrider was compulsed/thing-ied by Ishamael, it also stands to reason that the stedding blocks TP too. Whereas the Guardian does not.

 

That being said, I don't believe Rand is going to FoM without a plan. He has some kind of a plan, and is just missing some details. Which Moirane and Cyndane will supply.

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About the Stedding, even though it's way off topic, I don't think the Steddings and Far Madding work the way. In Far Madding, it is a ter'angreal that prevents use of the One Power there.

 

I'm pretty sure the Steddings aren't made with the One Power, but rather with some intuitive natural ability of the Ogier. They don't use the One Power to create Steddings (I think), so I don't think comparing the Far Madding ter'angreal to a Stedding is pointless.

 

Wifi and Bluetooth can both transmit data without cables, but that doesn't mean they work the same way.

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Shall I start a new hare.. :wink:

 

Why didn't Rand ask the 'finns how to close / seal / repair the Bore?

 

Yes it 'touches on the Shadow', but then he did ask how he could win the LB and survive, which does that as well. His PoVs, the inner 'chats' with LTT, show that he didn't get anything from them if he did ask about the Bore, which he surely must have done.

 

Someone has pointed out that the 'finns could have treated that as two separate questions - so if he did ask about the Bore, maybe they refused to answer, he insisted, they became 'difficult', at which point he had to produce his saidin-sword to escape from them.

 

I hope Moiraine asked for that knowledge as one of her three wishes!

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Shall I start a new hare.. :wink:

 

Why didn't Rand ask the 'finns how to close / seal / repair the Bore?

 

Yes it 'touches on the Shadow', but then he did ask how he could win the LB and survive, which does that as well. His PoVs, the inner 'chats' with LTT, show that he didn't get anything from them if he did ask about the Bore, which he surely must have done.

 

Someone has pointed out that the 'finns could have treated that as two separate questions - so if he did ask about the Bore, maybe they refused to answer, he insisted, they became 'difficult', at which point he had to produce his saidin-sword to escape from them.

 

I hope Moiraine asked for that knowledge as one of her three wishes!

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we know what Rand's third question was, or the answer to it do we? If he did ask, it's likely he got something he couldn't comprehend as an answer. If not, your scenario is a plausible one to me. I dunno. I kinda think the third answer (assuming my memory is correct) is being held for the final book.

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According to EncWoT, Rand's answers were:

 

'•One question was how to cleanse saidin.

•The answer was a riddle that Herid Fel says "stated sound principles in both high philosophy and natural philosophy."

 

•"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

•"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die." '

 

But:

'•The third question and answer are unknown. The Aelfinn did not mention Rhuidean to him. '

 

(from http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/aelfinn.html )

 

So yes, you're right, we don't, but I can't believe he wouldn't have asked about the Bore!

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So yes, you're right, we don't, but I can't believe he wouldn't have asked about the Bore!

 

RAFO?

 

/ducks

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. :) I really do think it's being held for the last book, and I do think you will turn out to be right. It is a touch frustrating though.

 

I've also wondered what Moiraine's answers were.

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So yes, you're right, we don't, but I can't believe he wouldn't have asked about the Bore!

 

RAFO?

 

/ducks

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. :) I really do think it's being held for the last book, and I do think you will turn out to be right. It is a touch frustrating though.

 

I've also wondered what Moiraine's answers were.

 

I think it's likely that Jordan had already penciled in the integration with his past life as LTT to solve the bore sealing problem. Since that seems to be where his plan is coming from now I think his third question was something else entirely. It could have been that he equated winning the last battle to sealing the bore and that's why he didn't ask how to do it. Maybe he asked, "What do I do about these three crazy bitches all up in my bidnez?" Or that chicken and egg thing.

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(Picks up cushion and replaces it on chair)

 

Back to Rand's encounter with the 'finns through the Tear doorway.. (TSR15) Mat's PoV; he is asking the finns questions when a bell starts to ring, presumably because a second ta'veren, Rand, has also entered. This disturbs the Aelfinn, who become confused and agitated, and give Mat more than his guaranteed three answers. I wonder if the same thing happened to Rand? Did he get more out of the 'finns than we have been told?

 

Of course, Rand had to have an interpreter, so even if the 'finns yelled their answers at him she may have remained silent. But now, Rand has fully integrated LTT's memories, including what LTT knew of the OT. Perhaps he'll remember and understand what they said.

 

2011/12 is a long time away..

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Cool thought. Though I would point out that Mat specifically asked for more answers. Rand probably didn't.

although if rand was confused he would have asked more questions, or so I believe, I think its one of those things that cannot be speculated upon due to lack of info

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I'm sure I posted a response to VM, but it seems to have evaporated, so I'll try again..

 

What we do know is that Rand had some kind of problem with the Aelfinn, serious enough for him to deploy his saidin-sword and back out of the doorway. It may have been that he asked a question 'touching on the Shadow' such as, 'how do I seal the DO away again'.. Unfortunately, there's no mention of that in his PoVs.

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I'm sure I posted a response to VM, but it seems to have evaporated, so I'll try again..

 

What we do know is that Rand had some kind of problem with the Aelfinn, serious enough for him to deploy his saidin-sword and back out of the doorway. It may have been that he asked a question 'touching on the Shadow' such as, 'how do I seal the DO away again'.. Unfortunately, there's no mention of that in his PoVs.

 

Perhaps, but I was under the impression that was because both he and Mat had entered, which caused a destabilizing effect. They rushed Mat to the doorway and literally threw him out, Rand came out a short while after with his sword of light deployed and it seems likely that this was to defend himself from a similar action.

 

Moraine came out after and berated them both saying that two ta'verens in there at the same time could have torn the connection between the different realms.

Edited by Crashy

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Mat was thrown out because he wouldn't go with his guide, but stayed, insisting on getting answers to his questions, not realising that he'd already got his answers - or perhaps not being satisfied with them - 'Burn you what fate?' (TSR 15)

 

Yes there was a destabilising effect, so Mat actually got more than his regulation 3 answers because the 'finns were off balance. I'll continue to wonder what Rand got.. possibly nothing, of course :madmyrddraal:

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Maybe I'm misreading things but no one has really mentioned Rands transformation during "The Gathering Storm". When we read the Towers of Midnight, we are lead to believe that some sort of "intergration" took place between Rand and Lews Therin. However, during TGS, Rand himself admits that the "voice" in his head wasn't LTT, just a possible symptom of the lingering madness due to the taint. Rand pretty much admits there never was a "voice" just his own wrestling with the responsibility "created" this "voice". Or something like this.

May confusion is is this Rand admitting his errors, or is this an error that Brandon Sanderson made, Or is it something weirder...? In early books, at certain times LTT asks Rand as if Rands voice is the madness and LTT is the actual consciousness. Following this logic, has The crysis that Rand faces pushed Rands mind to the "back" and allowed LTT to take "control".

Intergration seems as what Sanderson wanted as seen in ToM. However as a reader, I actually enjoyed Rands written epiphany that there never was a "voice" in his head. Why I enjoy this rather than "integration" is that it frees Rand from the errors and pride that LTT showed and allows Rand to take charge of his own destiny.

 

As an aside what does it mean to be the Dragon Reborn? The Dragon was the titled given to Lews Therin, however the battle between the light and dark is described as being Eternal. In no section had Lews Therin mentioned being possessed by a former "dragon" or avatar of light. The entire series is called "The Wheel of Time" and while the Dragon is undoubtedly an important part it's really the cyclical nature of history.

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I prefer this Zen Rand over the Darth Rand.

 

His "I gotta get harder!!!" was really getting a bit old in my opinion.

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The Dragon is not an "eternal" title. It's just this "turn of the wheel" name for the champion of light. The Dragon Reborn is a consequence of LTT title and the fact that he is the champion.

 

His soul (Rand's) is bound to the horn and therefore is a part of the pattern, but does not need the same name every turn of the wheel.

 

The Third Age is also called the Prophecy Age, so we might infer that next time he will be called something different. We might see "The Giant Reborn" or "The Savior Reincarnated" or anything alike.

 

LTT is the reincarnation of the same soul that is the champion of light every turn of the wheel. But he does not suffer from any kind of "memory leak" from other incarnations. Therefore we might assume that Rand's is crazy, but his "crazyness" is, somehow, unlocking his past experiences. It does not have to occur with every incarnation of the "Dragon" soul, but it is happening now and may happen next time.

 

Since we assume the story goes on and on repeating itself, with only some details changing, we might assume that the taint occurs every time, at the end of the second age and start of the third. Therefore, the "light's champion" will always be crazy, due to the taint, and have memories from the past age.

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I wonder if Rand is still running through that list in his head of all the women he feels resposible for or if he has forgiven himself for their deaths. (before I get attacked, I'm well aware a few women on that list like min and moraine are still alive and well)

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As usual, I didn't bother reading the 21st pages of the thread, so accept my apologies if this has been already discussed.

 

There's something... bothering me in the new Rand. Ok, he's kinda Jesus and stuff, but that's already been discussed. No, there's something more. When he fights the shadowspawns army on his own at Maradon (is that it? I mean, the besieged city in Saldaea), after the wiping out, he says something along the lines: "It came too close to a direct confrontation between Him and me, I can't do this again."

 

Well, that sounds dangerously too much like "That's something between Shait'an an me. Not the others." to me. I mean, the World is at stake, and the Last Battle would be all about a single man? C''mon! I know Rand is the Light's champion, but isn't the Shadow's champion supposed to be Moridin? It's not Shait'an himself. Shait'an is more on a Creator level, not Rand/Lews Therin Telamon, mere mortals level. That bugs me. It's like he personally knows the Dark One. That he knows the forsaken, yes, that's logical. That he "knows" (can we even know Him?) the Dark One is very disappointing to me. The Dark One is beyond human, how come can He lower Himself to dealing with mortals?? Can he even "deal" with them given that He has no specific form?

 

Please tell me that I'm wrong and misreading.

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As usual, I didn't bother reading the 21st pages of the thread, so accept my apologies if this has been already discussed.

 

There's something... bothering me in the new Rand. Ok, he's kinda Jesus and stuff, but that's already been discussed. No, there's something more. When he fights the shadowspawns army on his own at Maradon (is that it? I mean, the besieged city in Saldaea), after the wiping out, he says something along the lines: "It came too close to a direct confrontation between Him and me, I can't do this again."

 

Well, that sounds dangerously too much like "That's something between Shait'an an me. Not the others." to me. I mean, the World is at stake, and the Last Battle would be all about a single man? C''mon! I know Rand is the Light's champion, but isn't the Shadow's champion supposed to be Moridin? It's not Shait'an himself. Shait'an is more on a Creator level, not Rand/Lews Therin Telamon, mere mortals level. That bugs me. It's like he personally knows the Dark One. That he knows the forsaken, yes, that's logical. That he "knows" (can we even know Him?) the Dark One is very disappointing to me. The Dark One is beyond human, how come can He lower Himself to dealing with mortals?? Can he even "deal" with them given that He has no specific form?

 

Please tell me that I'm wrong and misreading.

 

I think you are reading that correctly. Rand was refering to the Dark One. But I disagree that Rand's fight is with Moridin (or, at least, just with Moridin). I believe Rand really will confront the Dark One Himself. Whether its some kind of actual Power fight or whether or not the Dark One can actually be slain? I don't know about that but I do believe that there will be some kind of actual struggle directly between Rand and the Dark One.

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As usual, I didn't bother reading the 21st pages of the thread, so accept my apologies if this has been already discussed.

 

There's something... bothering me in the new Rand. Ok, he's kinda Jesus and stuff, but that's already been discussed. No, there's something more. When he fights the shadowspawns army on his own at Maradon (is that it? I mean, the besieged city in Saldaea), after the wiping out, he says something along the lines: "It came too close to a direct confrontation between Him and me, I can't do this again."

 

Well, that sounds dangerously too much like "That's something between Shait'an an me. Not the others." to me. I mean, the World is at stake, and the Last Battle would be all about a single man? C''mon! I know Rand is the Light's champion, but isn't the Shadow's champion supposed to be Moridin? It's not Shait'an himself. Shait'an is more on a Creator level, not Rand/Lews Therin Telamon, mere mortals level. That bugs me. It's like he personally knows the Dark One. That he knows the forsaken, yes, that's logical. That he "knows" (can we even know Him?) the Dark One is very disappointing to me. The Dark One is beyond human, how come can He lower Himself to dealing with mortals?? Can he even "deal" with them given that He has no specific form?

 

Please tell me that I'm wrong and misreading.

 

I think you are reading that correctly. Rand was refering to the Dark One. But I disagree that Rand's fight is with Moridin (or, at least, just with Moridin). I believe Rand really will confront the Dark One Himself. Whether its some kind of actual Power fight or whether or not the Dark One can actually be slain? I don't know about that but I do believe that there will be some kind of actual struggle directly between Rand and the Dark One.

 

I believe he was refering to the Dark One as well. Call me crazy, but I think he will fight the Dark One and I'm of the opinion he will destory him for good. I know the whole concept of WOT is it repeats over and over again, but I think this time is different. Why these characters and this time? I think the Dark One will go away for good.

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I still don't get why neither Min nor Avi had told Rand that Elayne is pregnant, BTW.

 

Maybe Min got so drunk she forgot about the infamous viewing about Elayne's babies, but why didn't Avi told Rand when they were together in Arad Doman? Even Nynaeve could've told him after she learned about in ToM, yet she didn't. You'd have expected her to berate him for having premarital sex and babies out of wedlock against the Two Rivers customs. ;)

 

I guess Jordan has planned for it to be a major surprise for Rand and to affect the plot in some important way.

 

Imagine if you will that you are Elayne.

 

You have finally come to grips with the fact that the man you hope to marry is also in love with two other women - you're going to have to share him for whatever time he has left before he's destined to sacrifice himself to save the world, or whatever... and both of these other women, however much you may like them, have been to bed with him already... and one of them is constantly with him as he's off traveling the world without you. But hey, even if you're the last to bed him, you'll be the first to have his babies!

 

How utterly pissed off would you be if someone else decided to be the one to break the happy news?

 

Perhaps Min and Aviendha are conscious of how this would make Elayne feel, and don't think it's their place to tell Rand.

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