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The Aiel Thing in the Epilogue

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I thought they were Sharans right off, then got thrown by the male Aiel channelers theory, which, I have to admit, was sexy. But it doesn't fit the facts, dark eyed, darker skinned, unveiling. Sharans wear veils, I can't remember if they sharpen their teeth or not. Can anyone check the BBoBA regarding that? That would be a dead giveaway, I guess.

 

Tony

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i bet you theyy're from shara

 

 

I think that this is right - since Shara keeps coming up but we never see much of it.

 

I could also see them being corrupted Aiel, but there is no indication of channeling, so I think that is too much of a leap.

 

I think the male channelers with the enemy forces are turned Black Tower Asha'man. It is pretty obvious that is what is going on there, so why would we need another group of male dark channelers?

I don't understand why so many keep saying the Really Creepy "Aiel" Dudes are the male channelers if they are in fact of the Aiel. People seem to keep forgetting that lots of young Aiel go to the Blight to hunt trollocs. That's how Rand's father ended up dying to Luc -- he accompanied one of those bands. Yes, only a channeler has the weakness of being able to be forcibly and immediately turned to the Shadow against his or her will (that we know of), but we've seen other instances of the Blight corrupting non-channelers. Luc was probably not a Darkfriend before he went to the Blight (at least we have no indication he was), and Isam certainly wasn't -- he was a newborn baby. Neither of them could channel. They don't have to be channelers to have become corrupted or turned over time.

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But Isam, at least, was raised by darkfriends. And who knows if Luc was EVER a darkfriend. He met up with Isam, the two fought and... something happened. Who knows what. (although, I do hope we find out, somehow). Men go to hunt in the blight, but most of them come back. The Male channelers never come back. That's why people think this. What happens to them? THey probably just die, but what if they didn't? I don't think that's what the Red-veiled folks are, but it would have been an AWESOME plot twist.

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I also like the idea of them being Sharans, for much of the same reasons that has been mentioned before (mainly discounting the aiel channelers)

 

*snip*(the gholam didn't use any, it didn't need to) *snip*

 

Not completely true. The gholam did use a knife (at least in this last book)

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I posted in another thread but ill do so here in short. I think demandreds "rule" is a mirror world and those are aiel from a world corrupted by the shadow. I also think that is how the shadow has so many trollocs. They cheated by going to other realms. It is of course a theory. Might have been suggested already.

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I also like the idea of them being Sharans, for much of the same reasons that has been mentioned before (mainly discounting the aiel channelers)

 

*snip*(the gholam didn't use any, it didn't need to) *snip*

 

Not completely true. The gholam did use a knife (at least in this last book)

 

True, it did use a knife. However I would rather suggest that it carried the knife for protection. A way for it to cut Mat's medallion away rather than using it to kill.

 

I still don't see why there's such backing of the Sharan theory. Why would Sharans dress in the cadin'sor and carry Aiel spears?

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But Isam, at least, was raised by darkfriends. And who knows if Luc was EVER a darkfriend. He met up with Isam, the two fought and... something happened. Who knows what. (although, I do hope we find out, somehow). Men go to hunt in the blight, but most of them come back. The Male channelers never come back. That's why people think this. What happens to them? THey probably just die, but what if they didn't? I don't think that's what the Red-veiled folks are, but it would have been an AWESOME plot twist.

Obviously if a male channeler went back he'd have disgraced himself by not going off and dying with honor. He'd have to be put down. I'm sure they either die or, in recent years, some have gotten captured and turned. Not sure what you're referencing when you say most of the young Aiel who go to the Blight come back. Even if most do, over the years there's still been likely thousands disappear.

 

The main argument I've seen that they're not Aiel is essentially "they don't appear to be channelers, so they can't be Aiel." This isn't logical reasoning. Everything our unfortunate friend observed before he saw them up close screamed algai'd'siswai -- they carried short spears, wore the cadin'sor and even their movements (crouched to lower their profiles, etc) mirrored those of Aiel warriors. Interestingly enough, these appear to unveil themselves before killing -- perhaps a perverted twist on the Aiel tradition that would make sense with an actual "society" made of corrupted Aiel spear-brothers. The only additional things revealed were the pointy teeth and the dark eyes, which says nothing about who they were before.

 

The simplest answer is that they were once Aiel who -- regardless of channeling ability -- at some point made the trip or didn't return. Additionally, Darkfriend Aiel would make the trip to the Blight with hunting bands and "disappear," dedicating themselves to the Dark One. It explains their appearance, their location, and the odd behavior of one taking the time to purposefully reveal his face before killing. Why would Sharans strike down from the Blight? If Demandred had gathered a Sharan army, and it had to be moved a great distance already, why not just gate them to where he planned to use them instead of having them cross thousands of miles of dangerous Blight? Same with Land of Madmen references. The Shadow's Aiel coming from the Blight makes sense as they'd have originated from there.

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I thought they were Sharans right off, then got thrown by the male Aiel channelers theory, which, I have to admit, was sexy. But it doesn't fit the facts, dark eyed, darker skinned, unveiling. Sharans wear veils, I can't remember if they sharpen their teeth or not. Can anyone check the BBoBA regarding that? That would be a dead giveaway, I guess.

 

Tony

 

 

this was my thought process as well. sexy but too far fetched. However, applying Chekov's gun here, LoMM makes more sense. Why would RJ have introduced the LoMM if not for this purpose? Ok I get that Shara needs the same justification, but otherwise the BBoBA introduction of LoMM was totally superfluous.

 

EDIT: Random guess- given that Portal Stones have made their re-appearance after going extinct for 10 books or so, what if they are from a parallel world where the Aiel are turned to service of the DO?

Edited by ghenjei

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I immideately thought about the Shaskaban cannibals from Raymond Feists books, but thats beside the point. I'm not inclined to think the Land of Madmen would get involved now, almost near the end though. Sharans are definently an option.

 

 

That's pretty much why I think they might be involved. Land of Madmen has received pretty much no attention. They can be presented in a few a pages, probably through other characters. Something like Karede's servant for example or the Amayar. You know just another thing to fill out the universe of WoT even more. I think it would be a nice tough.

 

Although of course Shara does seem like a good choice. Just like the corrupted Aiel. In fact why not combine these theories. We know Aiel sometimes punish by selling people like animals to Shara. If they punish their own people like this as well...I wonder if Shara wouldn't take to breeding their disgraced Aiel slaves. Turn them into attack animals in case Aiel ever decide to invade Shara. Of course this seems a bit way too overcomplicated so I think I'll stick with my most hopeful theory. Land of Madmen!

 

Just as a point of information, Aiel don't sell other Aiel into slavery to the Sharans, only wetlanders, and in fact, only Treekillers. An Aiel that fell that far in society would be named da'tsang and live and suffer like that. Remember that to Aiel, even the lowest among them are seen as generally being better than anyone that isn't Aiel. There is no way they would allow an Aiel to be sold to the Sharans.

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Biggest issue with them being from Shara - Sharans are black - the description is explicit from Graendal's POV when she has the Sh'boan and Sh'abotay. Also those two titles, as well as words like Ayyad have a faintly African ring to them. Additionally, chattel slavery is practiced there and to a certain degree in Seanchan, and from the real world analogues we get chattel slavery as practiced on the African continent and in certain far eastern cultures like imperial china and Japan, of which Seanchan clearly resembles. This is always juxtaposed in WOT by the servitude/serf/lord setup prevalent in medieval europe that is also prevalent in the westlands.

 

We know that skin tone follows the nationality/geography in WOT just as it did historically in our world - the closest thing tone-wise to the Sharans are the Sea Folk, who because of their long, straight, thick hair I'm inclined to view as more Indian subcontinent. The sea folk almost never got by without a mention of their complexion/physical characteristics whenever they are viewed from someone else's POV. It stands to reason that a borderlander would have been pretty baffled by a person with very dark brown skin and very tightly curled hair wearing Aiel clothes with fangs sharpened, and would have said something in his description - he points out the other distinctions from normal Aiel.

 

Thus I think that these guys being Sharan is a stretch.

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*Mind is blown*

 

How the hell did this thread get even this far without someone talking about the "There is ______ in the Blight"?!

 

This has been discussed at length, and we were given a good indication that there is indeed a Portal Stone in the Blight, but that has always seemed anticlimatic and didn't really fit with the context of the story we have heard from team Jordan.

 

Now, tell me this doesn't sound perfect......"There's a sept of Aiel darkfriends in the Blight". "There's a what?!". *hours of details follow*

 

This makes perfect sense now, it answers quite a few questions, and fits perfectly(not to mention it is a much more satisifying answer then I ever saw anyone else guess).

 

Some notes....

 

-As someone mentioned on this thread, but didn't quite tie together all the pieces, this would include a lot of Aiel, not just channelers. As a lot of Aiel go to the Blight for joyrides. And yes, there could very well be an encourgement for DF Aiel to slip out and go on these excurisions. But here is where the things really snap into place; we have seen every nationality and race be rife with DF...the Aiel are the single exception. People keep suspecting Rhuarc or Amys or others, but after ToM we are more sure then ever that that's just not the case. Where are all the DF Aiel? With a few exceptions, they are in the Blight!

 

-Go back and read the Forsaken tea party in The Gathering Storm. All of those that are guessing that Dem's rule is anywhere in the Blight are almost surely mistaken. Not only is it made pretty clear that everything in the Blight is directly under Moridin's control, Moridin also wants a status update on Dem's rule. I just don't see anything in the Blight being out of Ishy's view. Now that it's looking like the Borderland army was a red herring all along, I am digging the idea of Dem marshalling an alternate reality. There just doesn't seem to be anyone left for Dem to be in charge of.

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We know that skin tone follows the nationality/geography in WOT just as it did historically in our world - the closest thing tone-wise to the Sharans are the Sea Folk, who because of their long, straight, thick hair I'm inclined to view as more Indian subcontinent.

 

Nope. There are very dark skinned Tairens (Juilin Sandar, for example), and some Altarans. Also, read the descriptions of Tylee and Tuon again, as well as some of the other Seanchan. Also, not all Sea Folk have straight or long hair. Some have tightly curled and short hair.

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I think it may be Aiel channellers who where captured killed and Myrrdraal souls transplanted into the body

 

I think this could explain the eyes, we know myrrdraal have no eyes but I think its possible that the transmigrates souls of myrdraal would be corrupt enough to change the colour of eyes

 

they are described as moving with a sleek grace, at first I thought it was what the myrrdraal where described as moving but I was wrong, most Aiel when they are described as wolfish not sleek (as far as I can remember). Myrrdraal I seem to recall have a sinuous grace, and strike with the speed of a serpent.

 

now I also propose that since myrrdraal have unnatural abilities they would be like the sparkers of the trollocs, and they are male. now for a huge leap of faith, I think that if a myrrdraal was transmigrated into a male channeller body that they could indeed channel.

 

I think this is a perfect explanation of how the DO is so good at transmigrating souls, he has been practicing for many years on male Aiel channellers. While at the same time ensuring a body of channellers that are entirely loyal.

 

the red veils of course would be to differentiate them from other aiel they may encounter since shadowspawn are notoriously stupid, the way they walk would be different from a myrrdraal since they wouldnt have their fear weapons anymore.

 

personnally I think that the 13X13 trick wont work on Aiel channellers, they already hate everything around them and themselves, so even if you increased those traits they probably wouldnt turn, just continue to strike and kill any shadowspawn around them

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the creepy Aiel dude is Aginor version 3. I mean, that dude still has to make another appearance :)

there where 3 of them.

 

I suppose they could be something akin to Somara though. . .

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There have been hints of an alternate world/dimension...and if you think about it,Loial's people are debating now on opening the book and leaving humanity to face this alone.That is the debate going on that is mentioned in the beginning of the book( which by the way is an excerpt from his book; if the world ends, how can that be?)

Perrin's protection of the white cloaks also has him suspecting that there is a portal stone in the area...bringing Trollocs over from...where?

In one of Min's visions she states that Perrin is important to Rand; He and Moiraine are vital for Rand to succeed as a matter of fact.This dimensional thing makes me wonder... will Perrin's stand be in telanrhiod and alternate dimensions? You gotta admit the Wolf Lord has power! Stopping Balefire with his hand! He cannot channel... and he is more powerful in the dream world than even the Forsaken.

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There have been hints of an alternate world/dimension...and if you think about it,Loial's people are debating now on opening the book and leaving humanity to face this alone.That is the debate going on that is mentioned in the beginning of the book( which by the way is an excerpt from his book; if the world ends, how can that be?)

 

We don't know how long the Ogier might take deliberating after he's done speaking. He's been writing that book for almost the entire series. There's no reason he couldn't have done his thing at the Stump and written the excerpted paragraph (and a few more even) while the final decision/vote/deliberation/whatever is made. Plus, I think the Ogier would take time to pack before leaving, so even if the decision were made 2 minutes after his speech, he'd have time to jot down his thoughts before they went poof.

 

But yeah, I totally think he'll sway the Ogier into staying & fighting. But only because it would be fun and we haven't seen much of Loial in a long time.

Edited by lillcheese

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Delurking to inflict a crazy idea on you.

 

Could it possibly be that these are captured Tinkers, or their descendants?

 

They were originally Dai'shain Aiel. They don't look like Aiel even though it is only 3000 years since the two groups separated (nobody ever mistook Rand for a Tinker). They travel in the Waste and can't defend themselves, so capturing them in a raid from the Blight wouldn't be difficult, and the Shadow would probably think it hilarious to corrupt them out of the Way of the Leaf and into The Anti-Aiel.

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Is the cadin'sor black and brown? That is what these beings wore. Short spears on their back were just an identifier along with the veil for Barriga. Where were the short bows? The bucklers? I don't think the beings are really Aiel at all. Barriga was a borderlander and I think it's important to note that he did not recognize them as a type of shadowspawn (not even a new type as Aginor wouldn't have had time to experiment). That he saw them as aiel can be explained by his having collapsed from blood loss and was no doubt delirious.

 

My first thought when reading this was they were from Shara. My second was a new kind of Dragkhar, third was the channelers. Those channelers were weak at the siege of Maradon. They were only seen to blast the wall and afterwards all was over with them so it wouldn't be a far stretch to have them killing with weapons. After all, Rand used a sword and the less experienced Aviendha was known to draw her knife. My fourth thought was that I have absolutely no idea and I'll be looking forward to book 14.

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now I also propose that since myrrdraal have unnatural abilities they would be like the sparkers of the trollocs, and they are male. now for a huge leap of faith, I think that if a myrrdraal was transmigrated into a male channeller body that they could indeed channel.

 

From what I understand of the subject, the body has little to do with a persons ability to channel. Lanfear's and Balthamel's experiences seem to reveal that the ability to channel is linked to the soul. When Lanfear is raised as Cyndane her ability is diminished because of the treatment of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Balthamel still wields Saidin because his soul is male even though his new body is female.

 

The one contradiction to this theory though is Birgitte, as she has stated that she has been an Aes Sedai in a previous life. If the ability to channel was linked to the soul, wouldn't she have been able to manifest this power during every life cycle? It's possible that she was severed from the source as this may have carried over to her next lives much like Lanfear's ability is still drained after she gets a new body.

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now I also propose that since myrrdraal have unnatural abilities they would be like the sparkers of the trollocs, and they are male. now for a huge leap of faith, I think that if a myrrdraal was transmigrated into a male channeller body that they could indeed channel.

 

From what I understand of the subject, the body has little to do with a persons ability to channel. Lanfear's and Balthamel's experiences seem to reveal that the ability to channel is linked to the soul. When Lanfear is raised as Cyndane her ability is diminished because of the treatment of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Balthamel still wields Saidin because his soul is male even though his new body is female.

 

The one contradiction to this theory though is Birgitte, as she has stated that she has been an Aes Sedai in a previous life. If the ability to channel was linked to the soul, wouldn't she have been able to manifest this power during every life cycle? It's possible that she was severed from the source as this may have carried over to her next lives much like Lanfear's ability is still drained after she gets a new body.

It has to be both soul and body -- or at least soul and genetics for normal channelers. RJ never intended to be all that clear on it. Now it is quite possible that, were the throwbacks caused by the ability to channel, and the Fade's "soul" for lack of a better word was prevented from channeling due to inhabiting a Shadow-twisted body, that if it were also possible for a Fade's "soul" to inhabit a human body, then these Really Creepy Aiel Dudes would be very interesting. I'm pretty sure the first premise isn't true, though -- that of Fade throwbacks having anything to do with channeling genes or soul-compatibility.

 

Birgitte wasn't ever an Aes Sedai, IIRC. She doesn't have the ability to channel and never did.

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now I also propose that since myrrdraal have unnatural abilities they would be like the sparkers of the trollocs, and they are male. now for a huge leap of faith, I think that if a myrrdraal was transmigrated into a male channeller body that they could indeed channel.

 

From what I understand of the subject, the body has little to do with a persons ability to channel. Lanfear's and Balthamel's experiences seem to reveal that the ability to channel is linked to the soul. When Lanfear is raised as Cyndane her ability is diminished because of the treatment of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Balthamel still wields Saidin because his soul is male even though his new body is female.

 

The one contradiction to this theory though is Birgitte, as she has stated that she has been an Aes Sedai in a previous life. If the ability to channel was linked to the soul, wouldn't she have been able to manifest this power during every life cycle? It's possible that she was severed from the source as this may have carried over to her next lives much like Lanfear's ability is still drained after she gets a new body.

It has to be both soul and body -- or at least soul and genetics for normal channelers. RJ never intended to be all that clear on it. Now it is quite possible that, were the throwbacks caused by the ability to channel, and the Fade's "soul" for lack of a better word was prevented from channeling due to inhabiting a Shadow-twisted body, that if it were also possible for a Fade's "soul" to inhabit a human body, then these Really Creepy Aiel Dudes would be very interesting. I'm pretty sure the first premise isn't true, though -- that of Fade throwbacks having anything to do with channeling genes or soul-compatibility.

 

Birgitte wasn't ever an Aes Sedai, IIRC. She doesn't have the ability to channel and never did.

 

"Soul and body" contradicts Balthamel's resurrection though, since he's a male channeler in a female body.

 

In one of Birgitte's lives she was Aes Sedai. On the day before her final test for the shawl during the Trolloc Wars she bonded a beautiful man whom she wanted for a warder because she feared someone else may snatch him before her. When this was discovered she had to relinquish her bond and was - once she had served her penance - given the bond of seemingly the ugliest warder around (Gaidal Cain.) She made his life a living hell before realizing that she loved him.

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now I also propose that since myrrdraal have unnatural abilities they would be like the sparkers of the trollocs, and they are male. now for a huge leap of faith, I think that if a myrrdraal was transmigrated into a male channeller body that they could indeed channel.

 

From what I understand of the subject, the body has little to do with a persons ability to channel. Lanfear's and Balthamel's experiences seem to reveal that the ability to channel is linked to the soul. When Lanfear is raised as Cyndane her ability is diminished because of the treatment of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. Balthamel still wields Saidin because his soul is male even though his new body is female.

 

The one contradiction to this theory though is Birgitte, as she has stated that she has been an Aes Sedai in a previous life. If the ability to channel was linked to the soul, wouldn't she have been able to manifest this power during every life cycle? It's possible that she was severed from the source as this may have carried over to her next lives much like Lanfear's ability is still drained after she gets a new body.

It has to be both soul and body -- or at least soul and genetics for normal channelers. RJ never intended to be all that clear on it. Now it is quite possible that, were the throwbacks caused by the ability to channel, and the Fade's "soul" for lack of a better word was prevented from channeling due to inhabiting a Shadow-twisted body, that if it were also possible for a Fade's "soul" to inhabit a human body, then these Really Creepy Aiel Dudes would be very interesting. I'm pretty sure the first premise isn't true, though -- that of Fade throwbacks having anything to do with channeling genes or soul-compatibility.

 

Birgitte wasn't ever an Aes Sedai, IIRC. She doesn't have the ability to channel and never did.

 

"Soul and body" contradicts Balthamel's resurrection though, since he's a male channeler in a female body.

 

In one of Birgitte's lives she was Aes Sedai. On the day before her final test for the shawl during the Trolloc Wars she bonded a beautiful man whom she wanted for a warder because she feared someone else may snatch him before her. When this was discovered she had to relinquish her bond and was - once she had served her penance - given the bond of seemingly the ugliest warder around (Gaidal Cain.) She made his life a living hell before realizing that she loved him.

 

It wasn't Birgitte, just an Accepted she knew (Barashelle) during the Trolloc Wars. I don't want to quote the whole thing, but it's in TFoH, A New Name, p. 409.

 

-- dwn

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"Soul and body" contradicts Balthamel's resurrection though, since he's a male channeler in a female body.

 

In one of Birgitte's lives she was Aes Sedai. On the day before her final test for the shawl during the Trolloc Wars she bonded a beautiful man whom she wanted for a warder because she feared someone else may snatch him before her. When this was discovered she had to relinquish her bond and was - once she had served her penance - given the bond of seemingly the ugliest warder around (Gaidal Cain.) She made his life a living hell before realizing that she loved him.

 

It wasn't Birgitte, just an Accepted she knew (Barashelle) during the Trolloc Wars. I don't want to quote the whole thing, but it's in TFoH, A New Name, p. 409.

 

-- dwn

 

Are you sure? Because the way she describes the story - in part where she describes the relationship with her new warder - implies that it is herself she's talking about. At least, that's how I interpreted it. I could very well be wrong, I don't have the books here to check it.

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Soul and body" contradicts Balthamel's resurrection though, since he's a male channeler in a female body.

 

The soul determines what you can channel (i.e. saidin or saidar). The genetic side influences other factors like sparker/learner, strength, and probably stuff like ability to learn quickly, memorize weaves quickly, etc.

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