Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Nynaeve's Arc


Luckers
 Share

Recommended Posts

The whole bit with Gawyn and the three Bloodknives proves this. She is so hell bent on forcing him to trust her instincts that she runs rough shod over his, and nearly gets them both killed for it. Typical AS bs. I expect she will require him to thank her or apologize or both for the whole situation before the whole series is over.

 

In her POV while he was bleeding to death, it's noted that she felt like a fool because Gawyn had been right. Shortly after that, he started in on how he'd disobeyed her again and she said that, technically, she'd already asked him to return so he hadn't. He insisted that he had, and she simply replied that he'd saved her life, and then told him he'd done the right thing and agreed that on matters of her protection, Gawyn pretty much had free rein from then on. But you were saying?

 

I can't speak for Gary, but to me, Egwene has a real facility for speaking convincingly out of both sides of her mouth. Even when the chips are down you can never be sure what she really means, or even if she has any strong personal code, anymore.

 

She has become just another cheap politician.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 176
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I'm just thinking of a Nyn and Cauddy conversation with just the two of them. I can see Cauddy getting upity and Nyn saying something along the lines of, "Shut up and fetch me some tea."

 

This makes me wonder whether or not you have even read the books. Multiple characters describe the interactions between Cadsuane Sedai and Nyn (not least of whom Nyn herself) and their interaction are nearly diametrically opposed to your conjecture. Other than Moiraine Sedai, Nyn has learned the most from Cadsuane Sedai.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Egwene seeks to establish a new Aes Sedai structure, where Aes Sedai serve the people around them, just as they did in the Age of Legends

ReallY? I've seen no evidence of this in her actions so far at all. What has she done ever since becoming Amyrlin to serve the people, and not just to make the White Tower a stronger organisation and thus get more power for herself? I can't think of anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Egwene seeks to establish a new Aes Sedai structure, where Aes Sedai serve the people around them, just as they did in the Age of Legends

ReallY? I've seen no evidence of this in her actions so far at all. What has she done ever since becoming Amyrlin to serve the people, and not just to make the White Tower a stronger organisation and thus get more power for herself? I can't think of anything.

 

What you say is true, but -

 

In fairness to Egwene, she is still in the process of consolidating the Tower, rooting out Mesaana and BA, working out relationships with Wise Ones and Sea Folk, etc. IOW, she's still buried in administrivia. From the interactions we see that she has, she is taking preliminary steps to make the Tower a more responsive organization that will actually perform some service to people in general.

 

It's still early days, there's a LOT of inertia to overcome. Getting where we'd all like to see the Tower end up is going to take time. Maybe generations.

 

Remember, nowhere in A Memory of Light will we see the words - "and they lived happily ever after." There will still be tension and discord between people and between groups once the Last Battle is over.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe, but I am suspicious of Egwene. She's bought way too much into the whole White Tower indoctrination that the Tower is the most important organisation in the world and that the everyone outside of it, especially the common folks, don't matter much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I never understood... quacks in our day and age claim most mental illnesses are (physical) chemical imbalances in the brain. Why then, couldn't mental illnesses be Healed?

 

Maybe, but I am suspicious of Egwene. She's bought way too much into the whole White Tower indoctrination that the Tower is the most important organisation in the world and that the everyone outside of it, especially the common folks, don't matter much.

 

 

Because it is the most important organization in the world.

 

It's had one job since the Breaking, to keep memory of the Shadow, and TG alive so mankind wouldn't be caught with its pants down.

 

Did it go about that job properly? IMO, absolutely not, they eff'd up big time. Some of that can be blamed on Ishy and the BA, but not all of it.

Edited by Beer Rot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe, but I am suspicious of Egwene. She's bought way too much into the whole White Tower indoctrination that the Tower is the most important organisation in the world and that the everyone outside of it, especially the common folks, don't matter much.

 

That is the danger. It's unclear whether she's sincerely changed her mind about an awful lot of stuff or whether her new attitude about things like Oaths and the Tower bureaucracy is just a political ploy. Lucy definitely has some 'splainin' to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nynaeve will probably end up with a Kin 2.0 on her hands. First she complained they were too obedient of the Aes Sedai so she decided to put some backbone in them, and now they won't listen to her at all, (she's Aes Sedai, which they don't listen to, and she's young) so that backfired nicely. Now she's in an organisation that goes by pure strength in power where age is only the second determiner when things are close, and she's probably about to turn power strength obsolete in favour of listening to women regardless... which is then going to put her right back at the bottom of the hierarchy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nynaeve will probably end up with a Kin 2.0 on her hands. First she complained they were too obedient of the Aes Sedai so she decided to put some backbone in them, and now they won't listen to her at all, (she's Aes Sedai, which they don't listen to, and she's young) so that backfired nicely. Now she's in an organisation that goes by pure strength in power where age is only the second determiner when things are close, and she's probably about to turn power strength obsolete in favour of listening to women regardless... which is then going to put her right back at the bottom of the hierarchy.

 

Nynaeve realized that in TGS, but still thought it was wrong for weak Aes Sedai like Daigian to be treated as servants. How many Aes Sedai besides Nynaeve would even consider giving up a position of great power just because it's unfair to others? The rest of them fight tooth and nail for any scrap of power they can get.

 

I think Nynaeve will end up changing the system, but going by age isn't a good solution either, as we see from the Kin. Sumeko's the oldest, but Alise's the natural leader that everyone obeys. The Aiel way is better: all Wise Ones are equals, but some have more honor and experience than others. Most Aes Sedai are older than Nynaeve, and stronger than Moiraine and Siuan currently are, but none have accomplished as much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I think Nynaeve will end up changing the system, but going by age isn't a good solution either, as we see from the Kin. Sumeko's the oldest, but Alise's the natural leader that everyone obeys. The Aiel way is better: all Wise Ones are equals, but some have more honor and experience than others. Most Aes Sedai are older than Nynaeve, and stronger than Moiraine and Siuan currently are, but none have accomplished as much.

 

Ultimately it comes down to force-of-will. Daighan is a doormat because she allows others to make her a doormat. Solving the problem is going to require people growing a backbone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In this book I think that Nynaeve really did come into her own. I love the character and I really do believe that she will be a focal point in the book to come, much less after the World breaks.

 

As for Egwene.....I have no idea why she shouldnt have chastised Nynaeve. She is, for intents and purposes, Nynaeve's head in all ways. She has stood up for Nynaeve (look at the conversation between them after Nynaeve's testing), she has just as much on her shoulders as anyone else, she does recognize when shes wrong, she has no reason at all to believe that Rand is sane- imagine the spy networks at this time! They're just coming back to where they used to be!, shes trying to clean up after Elaida (and thats a full time job as it is), and shes also still trying to mend the differences in the Tower. Also, she didnt yell at her- she asked Nynaeves advice on something relevant and NYNAEVE came to the same conclusion she had. So, she didnt yell at her. She merely had Nynaeve realize that Nynaeve was in the wrong. She HAS to follow tradition where she can. She has to consolidate her political base- you say shes just another politician. Well, no not really and yes at the same time. She has to maintain her following in the Hall just as she has to try to make the changes she wants. We, the reader, know all sides of everything- its something that has caused me to sometimes grind my teeth (i.e. in reading a chapter and going "But we KNOW that you're wrong- why cant you see it!) and then remember "Oh, wait. THEY dont know." These books are so great because they show what the world is really like. Also, we really dont know what Egwene is doing behind the scene. AND she is allowing the Hall now to take over the war efforts to leave her free. So she was obviously doing something. Its also probably very hard to practice dangerous weaves without violating the three oaths which, as they went over in the previous books, MAKE them Aes Sedai. Hence the Kin would not be bound by them.

Edited by Alia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Mr Fantasy.

 

And it might be that the ajahs themselves are completely overhauled after the Last Battle. At least some of them will need new purposes and general orientation (well maybe not the Browns LOL).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for Egwene.....I have no idea why she shouldnt have chastised Nynaeve. She is, for intents and purposes, Nynaeve's head in all ways. She has stood up for Nynaeve (look at the conversation between them after Nynaeve's testing).

 

I would say Egwene failed Nynaeve during the testing, which even Egwene herself seemed to realize. No, an Amyrlin can't favor her friends...but it's equally wrong to let her friends suffer worse than any other Aes Sedai just because Egwene's worried about what the Sitters might think. Nynaeve could easily have died as a result of what the Sitters were doing; is that not reason enough to put a stop to it and let the Sitters think what they want? Egwene even participated and forced Nynaeve to choose between the Tower and Lan, when anyone who knows Nynaeve should already know what she'd choose. It was completely unnecessary, and the fact that Egwene herself has no intention of going through the testing makes her look even worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for Egwene.....I have no idea why she shouldnt have chastised Nynaeve. She is, for intents and purposes, Nynaeve's head in all ways. She has stood up for Nynaeve (look at the conversation between them after Nynaeve's testing).

 

I would say Egwene failed Nynaeve during the testing, which even Egwene herself seemed to realize. No, an Amyrlin can't favor her friends...but it's equally wrong to let her friends suffer worse than any other Aes Sedai just because Egwene's worried about what the Sitters might think. Nynaeve could easily have died as a result of what the Sitters were doing; is that not reason enough to put a stop to it and let the Sitters think what they want? Egwene even participated and forced Nynaeve to choose between the Tower and Lan, when anyone who knows Nynaeve should already know what she'd choose. It was completely unnecessary, and the fact that Egwene herself has no intention of going through the testing makes her look even worse.

 

 

I think that Egwene does feel like she failed Nynaeve during the testing. And I think that Egwene should take the tests. I think that she should even think that she should. I also think that Egwene has a pretty full schedule on her hands- it was Nynaeve that said she could take it right away; Egwene thought it couldnt be done right away and Nynaeve volunteered. As for choosing in between Lan and the Tower, well that was a no-brainer. It should have happened- its one of the main objectives for the testing. What would you sacrifice if you had a different goal? These sisters didnt know her. And I dont believe we know enough about the testing to say that Egwene could have stopped what they were doing- its a terangreal, who knows what may have happened if she had tried? As it was, because Nynaeve knew more then she should and was able to break the rules of test she almost did kill herself and everyone else involved. If Egwene had tried to deviate even more who knows what may have happened?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I never understood... quacks in our day and age claim most mental illnesses are (physical) chemical imbalances in the brain. Why then, couldn't mental illnesses be Healed?

 

Maybe, but I am suspicious of Egwene. She's bought way too much into the whole White Tower indoctrination that the Tower is the most important organisation in the world and that the everyone outside of it, especially the common folks, don't matter much.

 

 

Because it is the most important organization in the world.

 

It's had one job since the Breaking, to keep memory of the Shadow, and TG alive so mankind wouldn't be caught with its pants down.

 

Did it go about that job properly? IMO, absolutely not, they eff'd up big time. Some of that can be blamed on Ishy and the BA, but not all of it.

 

It's not the most important organization in the world. The nations of the Borderlands were the most important organizations in the world. For three thousand years, they held the Shadow at bay while most Aes Sedai remained in Tar Valon, and those who left Tar Valon went out into the world to manipulate world politics for the most part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I never understood... quacks in our day and age claim most mental illnesses are (physical) chemical imbalances in the brain. Why then, couldn't mental illnesses be Healed?

 

Maybe, but I am suspicious of Egwene. She's bought way too much into the whole White Tower indoctrination that the Tower is the most important organisation in the world and that the everyone outside of it, especially the common folks, don't matter much.

 

 

Because it is the most important organization in the world.

 

It's had one job since the Breaking, to keep memory of the Shadow, and TG alive so mankind wouldn't be caught with its pants down.

 

Did it go about that job properly? IMO, absolutely not, they eff'd up big time. Some of that can be blamed on Ishy and the BA, but not all of it.

 

It's not the most important organization in the world. The nations of the Borderlands were the most important organizations in the world. For three thousand years, they held the Shadow at bay while most Aes Sedai remained in Tar Valon, and those who left Tar Valon went out into the world to manipulate world politics for the most part.

The Borderlanders have fallen when facing the Shadow in the past. The White Tower has not. The White Tower is to be the beacon of Light that inspires and leads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Borderlanders have fallen when facing the Shadow in the past. The White Tower has not. The White Tower is to be the beacon of Light that inspires and leads.

 

You mean other than when Bonwhin sacrificed a whole country for her envy? Or perhaps when we find out the entire White Tower is riddled with Black Ajah, think of how many names were on Verin's list? Or perhaps the fact that no one is inspired by the White Tower, even Borderlanders, who respect it to a degree, are suspicious of it at times (see some of the Borderlander statements when coming South). Oh, I know! You mean when they sit in the Tower doing nothing, and have pretty much left the Borderlands to fall, that's certainly inspiring!

 

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but really, the White Tower is meant to represent an organization that is riddled with corruption and has lost its place in the world. It does not inspire, nor does it lead. It manipulates and fails.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Borderlanders have fallen when facing the Shadow in the past. The White Tower has not. The White Tower is to be the beacon of Light that inspires and leads.

 

You mean other than when Bonwhin sacrificed a whole country for her envy? Or perhaps when we find out the entire White Tower is riddled with Black Ajah, think of how many names were on Verin's list? Or perhaps the fact that no one is inspired by the White Tower, even Borderlanders, who respect it to a degree, are suspicious of it at times (see some of the Borderlander statements when coming South). Oh, I know! You mean when they sit in the Tower doing nothing, and have pretty much left the Borderlands to fall, that's certainly inspiring!

 

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but really, the White Tower is meant to represent an organization that is riddled with corruption and has lost its place in the world. It does not inspire, nor does it lead. It manipulates and fails.

the white tower is meant to be whole and pure and blah blah blah. In actuality it is just a great city, a monument to the power of women in the world.

 

the single strongest organization in the world would be the borderlands, not only do they hold back the single greatest threat to mankind, they dont have The Great Game rotting them from the inside.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nynaeve's cleaning Naeff's madness was amazing. This leads me to believe that Nyn is going to play a very, very big role in the cleansing of the Black Tower. Something to keep in mind, Nynaeve doesn't heal madness, she removes the taint from the minds of those it has afflicted, and then heals the physical damage that the taint has done. Now we know that the Black Tower is being converted, person by person using the 13*13 method. But what does this do? My suspicion is that it fills the channeler with something like the taint. If my suspicion is correct, than Nynaeve will be doing some very important cleaning up around the Black Tower. (+ actually removing the effects of the taint from the poor guys)

"It's not a tu-mar!" (in Arnold Schwarzenegger voice)

 

But in all seriousness, Nynaeve did basically cut out obstructions in the brain. Good thing Delving works better than Neural Probes that surgeons use.

 

I too was kind of unhappy that Nynaeve joined the Aes Sedai officially. But she was in a bind. Myrelle had Lan's bond, and the only way she would pass it was if Nynaeve was Aes Sedai.

 

Not to mention that if Nynaeve turned her back on the White Tower, that it would've been a major blow to Egwene's authority.

Edited by Cut Strand
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Borderlanders have fallen when facing the Shadow in the past. The White Tower has not. The White Tower is to be the beacon of Light that inspires and leads.

 

You mean other than when Bonwhin sacrificed a whole country for her envy? Or perhaps when we find out the entire White Tower is riddled with Black Ajah, think of how many names were on Verin's list? Or perhaps the fact that no one is inspired by the White Tower, even Borderlanders, who respect it to a degree, are suspicious of it at times (see some of the Borderlander statements when coming South). Oh, I know! You mean when they sit in the Tower doing nothing, and have pretty much left the Borderlands to fall, that's certainly inspiring!

 

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but really, the White Tower is meant to represent an organization that is riddled with corruption and has lost its place in the world. It does not inspire, nor does it lead. It manipulates and fails.

Pretty much. As has been said elsewhere, "What have you done for me lately?"

 

The only Aes Sedai Ajah that has had a definite long term positive effect on the world is the Red Ajah (seriously - they at least keep the kingdoms of the world free of men who can channel with a reasonable degree of success). The Greens have failed to protect the Borderlands, the Yellows remain in Tar Valon rather than going out to heal people in the world, the Gray Ajah has been unsuccessful in keeping constant warfare from weakening and destroying most of the kingdoms of the world, the Brown Ajah has done a poor job of increasing the overall amount of knowledge of the rest of the world, and the Whites have failed to innovate. In all fairness, the Blue can probably claim the single greatest success of the history of the Tower in finding the Dragon Reborn and bringing him to the Eye of the World, but that was effectively the work of one woman, working without the aid of the greater body of the Tower.

 

Actually, if you really want to split hairs: Verin may have done more personally to support Rand when he most needed help than anyone other than Moiraine. So, I guess you could say that the Black Ajah has done more to help the world than the Greens, Whites, Yellows, Grays, and Browns (the ones who aren't Black).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sadly, you are pretty much right, Hopefire. There -are- good Aes Sedai. A few. Most Aes Sedai are caught up in the politics and traditions of the tower; it's really only those who step outside that that manage to do something worthwhile. Frankly, the White Tower needs to be shattered and rebuilt from the ground up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Borderlanders have fallen when facing the Shadow in the past. The White Tower has not. The White Tower is to be the beacon of Light that inspires and leads.

 

You mean other than when Bonwhin sacrificed a whole country for her envy? Or perhaps when we find out the entire White Tower is riddled with Black Ajah, think of how many names were on Verin's list? Or perhaps the fact that no one is inspired by the White Tower, even Borderlanders, who respect it to a degree, are suspicious of it at times (see some of the Borderlander statements when coming South). Oh, I know! You mean when they sit in the Tower doing nothing, and have pretty much left the Borderlands to fall, that's certainly inspiring!

 

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but really, the White Tower is meant to represent an organization that is riddled with corruption and has lost its place in the world. It does not inspire, nor does it lead. It manipulates and fails.

Pretty much. As has been said elsewhere, "What have you done for me lately?"

 

The only Aes Sedai Ajah that has had a definite long term positive effect on the world is the Red Ajah (seriously - they at least keep the kingdoms of the world free of men who can channel with a reasonable degree of success). The Greens have failed to protect the Borderlands, the Yellows remain in Tar Valon rather than going out to heal people in the world, the Gray Ajah has been unsuccessful in keeping constant warfare from weakening and destroying most of the kingdoms of the world, the Brown Ajah has done a poor job of increasing the overall amount of knowledge of the rest of the world, and the Whites have failed to innovate. In all fairness, the Blue can probably claim the single greatest success of the history of the Tower in finding the Dragon Reborn and bringing him to the Eye of the World, but that was effectively the work of one woman, working without the aid of the greater body of the Tower.

 

Actually, if you really want to split hairs: Verin may have done more personally to support Rand when he most needed help than anyone other than Moiraine. So, I guess you could say that the Black Ajah has done more to help the world than the Greens, Whites, Yellows, Grays, and Browns (the ones who aren't Black).

Excellent post. +1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sadly, you are pretty much right, Hopefire. There -are- good Aes Sedai. A few. Most Aes Sedai are caught up in the politics and traditions of the tower; it's really only those who step outside that that manage to do something worthwhile. Frankly, the White Tower needs to be shattered and rebuilt from the ground up.

Agree. I still think that making a Grey tower, where the men and woman can balance each other, like a true Yin Yang, is the answer.

 

The Black Tower is the complete antithesis to the White, not only in the fact that it is men that can channel, but also in they way they train, hierarchy, thought process, motivation, world view, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sadly, you are pretty much right, Hopefire. There -are- good Aes Sedai. A few. Most Aes Sedai are caught up in the politics and traditions of the tower; it's really only those who step outside that that manage to do something worthwhile. Frankly, the White Tower needs to be shattered and rebuilt from the ground up.

 

I was just going to make this point. The really good AS are the ones that left the tower shortly after being raised. There are a few exceptions, but it seems staying fully inert in the wt seems to ruin these women. Nyn is a huge breath of fresh air. I have a feeling that she is going to be pivotal in bringing the AM to the tower and getting the ladies up off their keesters. It will most certainly be restructured and I think eggy's plan to send accepted off to WO and WF will open eyes too. It will be nice to see what the old school AS do with all these new fangled ideas.

 

Jen-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nynaeve is so much better now. In the beginning I found her really overbearing. She was quick to anger and prone to petulant name calling. She still does the latter but to a lesser degree. She healed stilling, helped cleanse saidin, and apparently madness. Who knows, she may be able to eliminate the effects of compulsion. And finally in this book she actually has an understanding of the failings and limitations of Aes Sedai. We can only hope that Egwene listens to her. Nynaeve is definitely one of the very few competent Aes Sedai.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...