Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Nynaeve's Arc

Recommended Posts

The ethical/philosophical problem of the Oath Rod is that when a person is forced to behave a certain way, it allows them to avoid understanding why they should act that way.

 

We see the most obvious result of this in how the Aes Sedai routinely twist the truth. It's become about being unable to speak a direct lie, not about being honourable and trustworthy.

 

The Oath against making weapons was introduced when the One Power had been recently used in a world-wide civil war and the breaking. Yet it's really about not using the Power to further mankind's destructive impulses, not to prevent the creation of power-wrought weapons to fight the Shadow.

 

The Oath against killing is actually the most insidious, because on the surface it appears reasonable. It was likely intended to keep Aes Sedai out of battles, and to make normal people feel safe around them. Yet the very nature of this oath strikes at the core of the whole problem: why should an Aes Sedai need anything extra to keep her from needless violence?

 

I do think the Oath Rod is doomed, if not the Oaths themselves. The binding will fall out of favour once the lifespan reduction is widely known, and once the Aes Sedai mingle more with women not so bound.

 

-- dwn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rand jokingly claims to be an Aes Sedai, and it stands to reason the White Tower will eventually start accepting men again, assuming the good guys win. There's no reason to think the Asha'man wouldn't eventually start accepting women.

 

Lews Therin was an Aes Sedai and since Rand and LTT are one and the same now Rand technically is an Aes Sedai. I have a feeling that the Black Tower will be destroyed and Aes Sedai and Asha'man will be working together like the Aes Sedai in the AoL(which is why Egwene saw the Ancient Aes Sedai symbol).

 

I think we'll find that the world is over Aes Sedai. More likely,the men willstart to accept women. The BT is more like the AOL Aes Sedai anyway. They allow families to enter, not just the channelers themselves. Everything Nynaeve said after the testing - the Ashanman have. They just have to clean out the trash first and change some of their more destructive policies.

In Avi's vision the BT and the WT remain separate institutions.

 

And Avi's vision might not be entirely true...

 

 

 

I think it's fair to assume that the visions are true unless she does something to change them. Which I'm sure she will. But it seems most likely that Aviendha will do something to change the way Rand deals with the Aiel or the Seanchan. I'm not sure what she would do to affect the Black Tower.

 

The fact that the Black Tower is still around after TG means someone went through and cleaned out all the dark friends. My guess is that Logain comes back and has it out with Taim.

 

Again, I don't see any reason why the Black Tower wouldn't start accepting women. Nynaeve and some of those freed Damane would probably get along better at the Black Tower than the White Tower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I don't think this is their reasoning but there is still a positive side to the oaths. Now, with non-Aes Sedai channelers out there, normal people will put the Aes Sedai above those who don't take the three oaths.

 

But we don't see this to be the case in the other cultures with channelers. Wise Ones and Windfinders are greatly respected by their people. They aren't bound by the Oaths but are respected because of their actions and contributions to their peoples. Their people trust them much more than anyone trusts Aes Sedai even though they have not taken the Oaths.

 

For a good argument about why the Oaths are a huge mistake, see Luckers thread on the Life and Times of Aes Sedai (a Study in Stupidity) in the General section.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But we don't see this to be the case in the other cultures with channelers. Wise Ones and Windfinders are greatly respected by their people.

 

WOs used OP so little that even most Aiel didn't know that they could channel until Rand showed up. They were even less constructive where use of channeling to help their people was concerned than AS!

As to Windfinders, they aren't allowed to have independant careers. Their social position is wholly tied to that of their captain, who is a non-channeler. That does imply certain lack of trust.

What is more, both Aiel and Windfinders are culturally monoloithic, which helps to minimise the temptation to use OP destructively. WT largely preventing the use of OP in wars between very disparate nations was a big achievement.

 

Re: BT remaining separate after TG in Avi's vision - this was a major reason for both WT and BT falling to Seanchan, IMHO. And anyway, I don't really see how an organization whose reason for existence is to fight with OP could fit into a peaceful post-TG world.

 

I am not a fan of the Oaths and IMHO Siuan was 100% wrong in her defense of them (shared training and ordeals is what makes AS, not the Oaths), but something must be done to effectively prevent _all_ the channelers from engaging themselves in national conflicts. The White Tower ensured moratorium on military use of OP against humans so far, but they have lost the ability to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Oath against making weapons was introduced when the One Power had been recently used in a world-wide civil war and the breaking. Yet it's really about not using the Power to further mankind's destructive impulses, not to prevent the creation of power-wrought weapons to fight the Shadow.

 

Just a caveat: I could be totally wrong, but didn't the oaths not start till the Trolloc Wars, like a thousand years after the Breaking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to say, that i really like how Sanderson writes Nynaeve's character. I would be interested to know how he writes her when she is with Lan (since i really didnt care for how he was written).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ethical/philosophical problem of the Oath Rod is that when a person is forced to behave a certain way, it allows them to avoid understanding why they should act that way.

 

We see the most obvious result of this in how the Aes Sedai routinely twist the truth. It's become about being unable to speak a direct lie, not about being honourable and trustworthy.

 

The Oath against making weapons was introduced when the One Power had been recently used in a world-wide civil war and the breaking. Yet it's really about not using the Power to further mankind's destructive impulses, not to prevent the creation of power-wrought weapons to fight the Shadow.

 

The Oath against killing is actually the most insidious, because on the surface it appears reasonable. It was likely intended to keep Aes Sedai out of battles, and to make normal people feel safe around them. Yet the very nature of this oath strikes at the core of the whole problem: why should an Aes Sedai need anything extra to keep her from needless violence?

 

I do think the Oath Rod is doomed, if not the Oaths themselves. The binding will fall out of favour once the lifespan reduction is widely known, and once the Aes Sedai mingle more with women not so bound.

 

-- dwn

 

Imagine what happens what Rand says, at the Field of Merrilin "The Oath Rod you use was known as a Binding Rod in the age of legends. There were hundreds of them. They were used on criminals, to keep them from harming others. Just thought you'd like to know."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ethical/philosophical problem of the Oath Rod is that when a person is forced to behave a certain way, it allows them to avoid understanding why they should act that way.

 

We see the most obvious result of this in how the Aes Sedai routinely twist the truth. It's become about being unable to speak a direct lie, not about being honourable and trustworthy.

 

The Oath against making weapons was introduced when the One Power had been recently used in a world-wide civil war and the breaking. Yet it's really about not using the Power to further mankind's destructive impulses, not to prevent the creation of power-wrought weapons to fight the Shadow.

 

The Oath against killing is actually the most insidious, because on the surface it appears reasonable. It was likely intended to keep Aes Sedai out of battles, and to make normal people feel safe around them. Yet the very nature of this oath strikes at the core of the whole problem: why should an Aes Sedai need anything extra to keep her from needless violence?

 

I do think the Oath Rod is doomed, if not the Oaths themselves. The binding will fall out of favour once the lifespan reduction is widely known, and once the Aes Sedai mingle more with women not so bound.

 

-- dwn

Also it doesn't prevent them from torturing people as we have seen in a number of places. Which I always found odd. You can't kill people but you can do something that is marginally worse without any apparent restrictions as long as it doesn't kill. Super.

 

The oath should be not to do harm with the one power..

Edited by f3llyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ethical/philosophical problem of the Oath Rod is that when a person is forced to behave a certain way, it allows them to avoid understanding why they should act that way.

 

We see the most obvious result of this in how the Aes Sedai routinely twist the truth. It's become about being unable to speak a direct lie, not about being honourable and trustworthy.

 

The Oath against making weapons was introduced when the One Power had been recently used in a world-wide civil war and the breaking. Yet it's really about not using the Power to further mankind's destructive impulses, not to prevent the creation of power-wrought weapons to fight the Shadow.

 

The Oath against killing is actually the most insidious, because on the surface it appears reasonable. It was likely intended to keep Aes Sedai out of battles, and to make normal people feel safe around them. Yet the very nature of this oath strikes at the core of the whole problem: why should an Aes Sedai need anything extra to keep her from needless violence?

 

I do think the Oath Rod is doomed, if not the Oaths themselves. The binding will fall out of favour once the lifespan reduction is widely known, and once the Aes Sedai mingle more with women not so bound.

 

-- dwn

Also it doesn't prevent them from torturing people as we have seen in a number of places. Which I always found odd. You can't kill people but you can do something that is marginally worse without any apparent restrictions as long as it doesn't kill. Super.

 

The oath should be not to do harm with the one power..

 

Let me be clear. I think the Three Oaths are actually a good thing, because they represent ideals that most people can agree are good ones to uphold. I think enforcing them with the Oath Rod cheapens those ideals and lets an Aes Sedai feel comfortable with bending them to suit her needs.

 

Nynaeve addresses this head on when confronted on her use of balefire. An oath merely for the sake of an oath is foolish. Understanding the dangers of balefire, aspiring to be truthful and honourable, knowing when violence is needed and not; those are standards the Aes Sedai should hold themselves up to.

 

-- dwn

Edited by dwn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me be clear. I think the Three Oaths are actually a good thing, because they represent ideals that most people can agree are good ones to uphold. I think enforcing them with the Oath Rod cheapens those ideals and lets an Aes Sedai feel comfortable with bending them to suit her needs.

 

Nynaeve addresses this head on when confronted on her use of balefire. An oath merely for the sake of an oath is foolish. Understanding the dangers of balefire, aspiring to be truthful and honourable, knowing when violence is needed and not; those are standards the Aes Sedai should hold themselves up to.

 

-- dwn

No, you find the spirit they should have been based on to be noble.The only reason they took those oaths was to make the public trust them more, instead of actually believing they represented ideals that should be upholded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't remember which one it was, but one of the Aes Sedai expressed surprise that Nynaeve thought she was going to Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Wasn't it rather surprise that Nynaeve intended to go to _Shayol Ghul_ with Rand?

Nynaeve isn't wasting any time on her mission to rally support for Rand. WTG, Nynaeve! Yank that carpet of self-righteous complacency right out from under their feet, wake them up and make them THINK!

 

Now I wanted to ask another question. Rand says he wants Nynaeve and one other woman to form a circle with him so that he can wield Callandor. He suggests Elayne or Aviendha. I doubt either one will be that third. Elayne is not likely because of her pregnancy. And if Aviendha is going to have Rand's babies, she also will probably be pregnant before the Last Battle, so that rules her out.

 

Who do you believe the other woman will be?

 

I'm putting my bets on Alivia, the former damane. Two reasons: First, while Nynaeve can channel a huge amount of the power, probably more than any other Aes Sedai, Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve. Second, Min had a very clear viewing that Alivia would "help Rand die."

 

Your ideas?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't remember which one it was, but one of the Aes Sedai expressed surprise that Nynaeve thought she was going to Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Wasn't it rather surprise that Nynaeve intended to go to _Shayol Ghul_ with Rand?

Nynaeve isn't wasting any time on her mission to rally support for Rand. WTG, Nynaeve! Yank that carpet of self-righteous complacency right out from under their feet, wake them up and make them THINK!

 

Now I wanted to ask another question. Rand says he wants Nynaeve and one other woman to form a circle with him so that he can wield Callandor. He suggests Elayne or Aviendha. I doubt either one will be that third. Elayne is not likely because of her pregnancy. And if Aviendha is going to have Rand's babies, she also will probably be pregnant before the Last Battle, so that rules her out.

 

Who do you believe the other woman will be?

 

I'm putting my bets on Alivia, the former damane. Two reasons: First, while Nynaeve can channel a huge amount of the power, probably more than any other Aes Sedai, Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve. Second, Min had a very clear viewing that Alivia would "help Rand die."

 

Your ideas?

 

I thought Alivia would be a great choice too, or Moiraine of course. My only concern about Alivia is that making her link takes her out of the defense or offense. She'd be very valuable using her damane weaves to fend off dreadlords and shadowspawn while Rand and his circle do their work. Alivia alone or backed by a circle and with her own angreal would be a nice welcoming party to any of the Forsaken who might want to catch up with LTT--but I guess that could be said of Nyneave too. It seems Rand is choosing link partners based on trust, not strength in the Power (which he could gain by building a bigger circle). Honestly, considering the awesome amount of the One Power drawn because of Callandor, the individual strength of the two women with him begins to matter less.

 

But, back to Alivia... If only the Aes Sedai and the Wondergirls were more open about their weaves with her, although I understand their reluctance.

 

Some people have suggested Lanfear--if she is redeemed and freed from Ishamael--since she has both strength and knowledge from the AoL. I remain skeptical of her true desires and I find it difficult to imagine her coexisting with Elayne, Aviendha and Min.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me be clear. I think the Three Oaths are actually a good thing, because they represent ideals that most people can agree are good ones to uphold. I think enforcing them with the Oath Rod cheapens those ideals and lets an Aes Sedai feel comfortable with bending them to suit her needs.

 

Nynaeve addresses this head on when confronted on her use of balefire. An oath merely for the sake of an oath is foolish. Understanding the dangers of balefire, aspiring to be truthful and honourable, knowing when violence is needed and not; those are standards the Aes Sedai should hold themselves up to.

 

-- dwn

What I meant by that was that if they're going to have an oath to not kill with the power, it should be to do no harm with the power, unless against shadowspawn or defense of life, etc instead. It seems silly to not allow them to kill with the power, but they can torture whoever they wish with it indiscriminately. They don't even need to suspect you of any wrong doing at all, as we witnessed how they treated Rand and Min after they were kidnapped.

 

But yes, I agree with what you said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RJ: The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity.

 

Curious that he made that statement, since he seems careful to RAFO stuff like that, considering what Nynaeve accomplishes in ToM.

 

I sort of doubt Nynaeve used the True Power. ;)

 

Did he slip up or has Sanderson taken liberties?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RJ: The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity.

 

Curious that he made that statement, since he seems careful to RAFO stuff like that, considering what Nynaeve accomplishes in ToM.

 

I sort of doubt Nynaeve used the True Power. ;)

 

Did he slip up or has Sanderson taken liberties?

 

Nope. Look at how Ishy does it in the tEotW Prologue: it's just like OP Healing, in that he just does a weave and LTT is fixed in mere moments. Even the reaction is similar to OP Healing, just very painful, and LTT experienced different sensations than those from OP weaves.

 

Now look at what Nynaeve did: not like Healing at all. In fact, afterwards she even thinks it wasn't truly Healing because she didn't use Healing weaves to get rid of the taint. Instead she plucked out the little spikes one by one using pure Spirit. Healing is either three or all five Powers. She only used genuine Healing weaves to repair the damage to the brain that she did herself when extracting the spikes. While she worked, she had to hold the taint web in place, and then when it was all plucked out, wove a counterweave like you'd use on Compulsion. And the whole process took a very long time. So long that she couldn't spare the concentration for ignoring the heat by the time she was done. Lastly, Naeff didn't respond like someone being Healed. He wasn't tired or hungry and he didn't really react at all during the process: he didn't spasm or even tense up. He simply stopped seeing Fades in the shadows.

Edited by didymos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RJ: The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity.

 

Curious that he made that statement, since he seems careful to RAFO stuff like that, considering what Nynaeve accomplishes in ToM.

 

I sort of doubt Nynaeve used the True Power. ;)

 

Did he slip up or has Sanderson taken liberties?

 

Nynaeve didn't really classify what she did as healing. She thought it was closer to unravelling Compulsion than anything else. Also, given Nynaeve's visualization of the taint-madness, it seemed more like a disease that induced delusions rather than a breakdown of the brain itself.

 

That's close enough for me to allow it to slide, anyway.

 

-- dwn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny that no one has mentioned this as far as I've seen. It is basically Egwene's own fault for making Elayne and Nynaeve not calling her mother or being very formal with her at all. She wanted them not to do it when she was raised and during the short time that Elayne and Nynaeve was with Egwene in Salidar SHE made them accustomed to not calling her mother. Way to go accepting responsibilities Egwene, instead she blames the entire thing on Nynaeve, god I hated that.

 

Otherwise I have always liked Nynaeve and even more so in this book. I hope she keeps her promise to Rand and in doing so defies Egwene, making Egwene realize what an arrogant child she is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny that no one has mentioned this as far as I've seen. It is basically Egwene's own fault for making Elayne and Nynaeve not calling her mother or being very formal with her at all. She wanted them not to do it when she was raised and during the short time that Elayne and Nynaeve was with Egwene in Salidar SHE made them accustomed to not calling her mother. Way to go accepting responsibilities Egwene, instead she blames the entire thing on Nynaeve, god I hated that.

 

Otherwise I have always liked Nynaeve and even more so in this book. I hope she keeps her promise to Rand and in doing so defies Egwene, making Egwene realize what an arrogant child she is.

 

Egwene allowed her close friends (including Siuan) to call her by name in private. She temporarily rescinds that with Nynaeve because Nynaeve has come very close to flouting Egwene's authority. It's much the same problem Egwene had with Gawyn. Both he and Nynaeve intellectually know that Egwene is Amyrlin, but they both instinctively treat her as just Egwene the girl.

 

-- dwn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny that no one has mentioned this as far as I've seen. It is basically Egwene's own fault for making Elayne and Nynaeve not calling her mother or being very formal with her at all. She wanted them not to do it when she was raised and during the short time that Elayne and Nynaeve was with Egwene in Salidar SHE made them accustomed to not calling her mother. Way to go accepting responsibilities Egwene, instead she blames the entire thing on Nynaeve, god I hated that.

 

Otherwise I have always liked Nynaeve and even more so in this book. I hope she keeps her promise to Rand and in doing so defies Egwene, making Egwene realize what an arrogant child she is.

 

Egwene allowed her close friends (including Siuan) to call her by name in private. She temporarily rescinds that with Nynaeve because Nynaeve has come very close to flouting Egwene's authority. It's much the same problem Egwene had with Gawyn. Both he and Nynaeve intellectually know that Egwene is Amyrlin, but they both instinctively treat her as just Egwene the girl.

 

-- dwn

 

She didnt "allow" it as you say it. She needed it, she didnt like everyone seeing her as the amyrling so she wanted them to act like shes not the Amyrlin. But either way I dont see how your comment should suffice as a defense for not being her own fault for putting Nynaeve and Elayne in the habit of not being formal with her precious "mother" title.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She didnt "allow" it as you say it. She needed it, she didnt like everyone seeing her as the amyrling so she wanted them to act like shes not the Amyrlin. But either way I dont see how your comment should suffice as a defense for not being her own fault for putting Nynaeve and Elayne in the habit of not being formal with her precious "mother" title.

 

Yes, and a number times before, she has assumed the Amyrlin role in private when necessary, and she's done it with Nynaeve. For instance, when she wore the stole in T'A'R, that meant she was in Amyrlin mode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While Nynaeve was awesome as ever in all her scenes, I was really disappointed when Brandon took away her virginity - if I remember correctly, Nynaeve did not kill anyone before ToM, but know she tells Egwene "By the way I killed a Black Sister in TAR" (while Egwene herself was seemingly very happy and eager about killing someone herself). Apart from Hopper's death certainly the saddest moment in the whole book and in a way very disappointing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While Nynaeve was awesome as ever in all her scenes, I was really disappointed when Brandon took away her virginity - if I remember correctly, Nynaeve did not kill anyone before ToM, but know she tells Egwene "By the way I killed a Black Sister in TAR" (while Egwene herself was seemingly very happy and eager about killing someone herself).

 

Nynaeve's killed before. In Falme, when she and Elayne escaped, she fried a Seanchan soldier with a fireball. He was very definitely dead. She also rained lightning down on the town when Egwene flipped and attacked the Seanchan patrol. It's likely she killed some people then too, but she certainly wasn't doing it for their health. Don't forget her melting Rahvin's face off, either. I doubt she was planning to Heal the guy, and if Rand hadn't made with the balefire, Rahvin wouldn't have survived much longer. There was also a DF in aCoS that she likely killed too: she smashed him into the floor so hard his face bounced off it. In any, that dude was severely messed up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While Nynaeve was awesome as ever in all her scenes, I was really disappointed when Brandon took away her virginity - if I remember correctly, Nynaeve did not kill anyone before ToM, but know she tells Egwene "By the way I killed a Black Sister in TAR" (while Egwene herself was seemingly very happy and eager about killing someone herself).

 

Nynaeve's killed before. In Falme, when she and Elayne escaped, she fried a Seanchan soldier with a fireball. He was very definitely dead. She also rained lightning down on the town when Egwene flipped and attacked the Seanchan patrol. It's likely she killed some people then too, but she certainly wasn't doing it for their health. Don't forget her melting Rahvin's face off, either. I doubt she was planning to Heal the guy, and if Rand hadn't made with the balefire, Rahvin wouldn't have survived much longer. There was also a DF in aCoS that she likely killed too: she smashed him into the floor so hard his face bounced off it. In any, that dude was severely messed up.

 

I think the character is better for it too. If Nyneave had some kind of phobia about killing when killing needs doing (like Rand/LTT does with women) we would all be annoyed and she would not be as badass. Thank god Nyneave isn't a caricature of Healer, she'd risks being one-note like many of the Forsaken are, known for one thing and failing at everything else.

 

My only regret is that Nyneave didn't get a better chance at Liandrin and Co. So early in the series--half trained, still Blocked, not having grown in the Power anywhere near her limit it seemed the Wondergirls were stepping from one BA trap into another >.> <.<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been bugging me how many Aes Sedai know balefire on sight, even though it's extremely forbidden. Perhaps the visual effect is described clearly in a tome somewhere. It's just that every time the Aes Sedai talk about it they are really round about, almost like how one speaks of Shaitan. How can anyone even really know what it is, if they can never learn it, and only speak about it in euphemisms. Every one of the Aes Sedai at Nyneave's testing seemed to know it on sight, instead of just thinking Nyneave created a particularly hot jet of fire.

 

Hell, I'm not even sure how Moiraine knew the weaves to make it. It's not like she was taught it and as far as I know weaves aren't found diagrammed in scrolls. And I'm pretty sure the weave to make it is extremely complicated (not possible to accidentally weave it) as well as requires more of the Power than your average Aes Sedai can wield unaided.

 

*shrug* I didn't blink twice when Nyneave instinctively channeled it, so I guess I have no ground to stand on being annoyed the sisters testing Nyneave also knew of it enough to identify it on sight. It wouldn't be that hard to find "Balefire: a bar of white light THAT IS FORBIDDEN" in scrolls in the library.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...