Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Nynaeve's Arc

Recommended Posts

Nynaeve's cleaning Naeff's madness was amazing. This leads me to believe that Nyn is going to play a very, very big role in the cleansing of the Black Tower.

 

Agree. This was one of the biggest shockers of the book for me, especially how it was thrown in almost off-handedly!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nynaeve's cleaning Naeff's madness was amazing. This leads me to believe that Nyn is going to play a very, very big role in the cleansing of the Black Tower.

 

Agree. This was one of the biggest shockers of the book for me, especially how it was thrown in almost off-handedly!

 

Remember the old song about the ant and the rubber-tree plant? Just like with stilling Nynaeve is too naive to know it can't be done so she just goes ahead and does it.

 

That is a wonderful bit of characterization and it is pure Jordan.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nynaeve's cleaning Naeff's madness was amazing. This leads me to believe that Nyn is going to play a very, very big role in the cleansing of the Black Tower.

 

Agree. This was one of the biggest shockers of the book for me, especially how it was thrown in almost off-handedly!

 

Remember the old song about the ant and the rubber-tree plant? Just like with stilling Nynaeve is too naive to know it can't be done so she just goes ahead and does it.

 

That is a wonderful bit of characterization and it is pure Jordan.

 

She is one of my fav characters, especially how she embodies many contradictions. :nynaeve:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that there should be a differentiation between healing the taint-induced madness and healing "natural" pyschiatric disease. The black web/thorns must be derived from the Shadow, and I can't imagine anyone without exposure to the tainted source showing the same signs on delving (or what ever it would be called specific to madness) no matter how completely insane they may be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that there should be a differentiation between healing the taint-induced madness and healing "natural" pyschiatric disease.

 

This makes sense to me. I think her ability to heal the taint madness comes from her healing prodigy ability and her experience with Rand cleansing Saidin from the taint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder how the future will look for the Aes Sedai. There's this whole Last Battle thing in the way, but I'm thinking more along the lines of how they would hold themselves in the world. The whole Nynaeve way vs Egwene way is an interesting one. I really hope that what Rand said holds, that the Aes Sedai don't ruin Nynaeve.

 

Cadsuane hasn't exactly been perfect in this series, but overall she's been much preferable to the "standard" Aes Sedai, and Nynaeve is definitely going down that road. Moiraine is another one, and I feel Verin is one too, if in a slightly different way. I might see a pattern that isn't there though, as these happen to be my favourite women of the WoT universe, with a few additions.

 

The age that passed will come again, as is the wheel of time.

The age of legends was the age of the one power. I think we can infer from the books that at the beginning of that age, the one power was a new toy. What this means is that at some point in the future, the one power needs to be culled, ond for this,we have the seanchan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I reckon it will be Nynaeve and Moiraine that help Rand. Imagine the irony of Nynaeve helping Moiraine direct the flows so Rand can face the DO.

 

The only reason to take Moiraine as the third could be if she would be the one melding the flows. Otherwise, Rand should just take the strongest woman - Alivia or whoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nynaeve is quite impressive. She has the strongest will of any Aes Sedai alive, which is why she hasn't quit when told something can't be done; be it channeling during testing for the ring or shawl or in curing something 'incurable.' Really, she channels during both her testings in the White Tower and is afterward told that this is not possible. She even willed the test for acceptance to give her a second chance when she waited to long and the archway disappeared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Nynaeve should have become an Asha'man. When she told the testers that she was going to be with Rand at the last battle whether they raised her or not, I honestly thought she was going to walk out before they even made a final decision. It would have been awesome if she had gone back to Tear, and when Rand found out she hadn't been raised, he handed her the sword and dragon pins.

 

Rand jokingly claims to be an Aes Sedai, and it stands to reason the White Tower will eventually start accepting men again, assuming the good guys win. There's no reason to think the Asha'man wouldn't eventually start accepting women. There are distinct philosophical differences in how the Asha'man and Aes Sedai view working with the One Power, as well as life in general, and I'd argue those differences are bigger than just gender. Many women who end up in the red and green ajahs would probably do well at the Black Tower, just as many of the Asha'man, such as Grady or Androl, might find a better fit in one of the ajahs of the White Tower.

 

Besides, there are significant advantages to having men and women channel together, and neither tower would want to miss out on that. The Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai and vice versa is a good short-term solution to keep the peace, but I don't see that working forever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rand jokingly claims to be an Aes Sedai, and it stands to reason the White Tower will eventually start accepting men again, assuming the good guys win. There's no reason to think the Asha'man wouldn't eventually start accepting women.

 

Lews Therin was an Aes Sedai and since Rand and LTT are one and the same now Rand technically is an Aes Sedai. I have a feeling that the Black Tower will be destroyed and Aes Sedai and Asha'man will be working together like the Aes Sedai in the AoL(which is why Egwene saw the Ancient Aes Sedai symbol).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nynaeve sticks up for Rand, and Egwene automatically thinks that its just Rands ta`veren swaying her opinion. And she is so extremely hypocrtical its not amusing. beyond hypocritical.

 

Well, what if she is right? We have heard over and over again that Rand is the most powerful ta'veren in ages, possible the strongest ever. Maybe he does begin to exert some force over them. Not conscious, but a tugging of the pattern. Mat and Perrin can feel him tugging on him.

 

Ta'veren bends chance. Almost everyone in a small village decides to get married when he passes through. Half the buildings in another small village burn to the ground when he passes through. Why wouldn't he have some effect on the people around him the most?

 

 

It doesn't help the fact that we know shes wrong :P

 

To Egwene, Rand showing up and talking like LTT just added more fuel the he's crazy fire. Anyone who has dealt with Rand since he took up Callandor in Illian knows he is volatile, unpredictable, and dangerous. Now he walks in acting all calm and cool and completely out Aes Sedai's the Aes Sedai.

 

Nynaeve has spent a long time traveling with Cadsuane and Min. Cads is one of the few Aes Sedai that has even thought about and planned for the last battle. She has been preparing for this a long time I think. Min has been reading all those books. And not just reading. Learning and thinking. What she found, about Callandor, didn't surprise Cads. Cads didn't try to stop him when he cleansed saidin. I don't think she'll try to stop him from breaking the seals.

 

But this was about the ta'veren effect. We have seen that Mat and Perrin will attract what they need, sometimes before they need it. Doesn't Rand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There has been a lot of discussion about the characters that Brandon is doing right and wrong. I think Nyn is the perfect example of a character that Brandon has nailed, but even beyond that I think Brandon's writing style has made Nyn an even more likable character. There are times when I, and I think we all, really rip on the ones we love most. But it's the ones we care about the most that can get the most harsh treatment, and I think that has always been Nyn. But sometimes it came off too harsh, and I think Brandon's style has helped everyone to appreciate Nyn in a way that many of us have for a long time.

 

I remember the scene in Knife of Dreams where the Sea Folk just made me want to vomit. Honestly, probably as bad as anything the White Cloaks(or any non-Shadow group) in all thier zealotry have ever done. When Birgitte had to force them to watch men being slaughtered by the BA....and the Sea Folk actually watched it because they weren't required to help by any Bargain....and EVENTUALLY felt compelled to help them. To me, this is why Nyn is such an amazing character....she is the EXACT opposite of that. In the WoT of such flawed characters, she is the one that would run onto a battlefield with no regard to her own life at all to save someone she didn't like just because she cares so much. That's the kind of thing that makes her such a great character....not just an ok one, or a relatable one, but an amazing one. And it's nice that even if it takes a little away from her prickly charm that Brandon writes her with a little less barb, it's nice that everyone gets to appreciate just how amazing she is.

 

To be honest, until I read the thread I had kind of been down that Nyn got such a little part in ToM, but she definitely had her moments even if they were rare. I don't think it's a bad thing that she is Aes Sedai. Being part of an organization and having different views is a good thing. It adds a weight to your arguments that being "on the outside" could never do.

 

By the by, to those of you saying Aes Sedai aren't planning remember the scene with Gareth Bryne when Gawyn went to ask on advice about women. At the very least we know that the armies of Tar Valon are in good hands and will be ready. It seems like a good bet that a lot of the sisters will be drawn into direct conflict in these battles.

 

That was actually one of my favorite scenes. It's funny because characters like Alise and Sorilea are always mentioned as ruling by strength of character, but Bryne is probably one of the longest running ones in the series. Ever since the rebels snatched him up he has basically said, "I'm not gonna plot or scheme. This is the way things are, and I know what I am doing. If you don't like it, chop my head off". So funny watching Suian try to wiggle anything out of him, and him just being that boulder rolling down a hill he always is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rand jokingly claims to be an Aes Sedai, and it stands to reason the White Tower will eventually start accepting men again, assuming the good guys win. There's no reason to think the Asha'man wouldn't eventually start accepting women.

 

Lews Therin was an Aes Sedai and since Rand and LTT are one and the same now Rand technically is an Aes Sedai. I have a feeling that the Black Tower will be destroyed and Aes Sedai and Asha'man will be working together like the Aes Sedai in the AoL(which is why Egwene saw the Ancient Aes Sedai symbol).

 

I think we'll find that the world is over Aes Sedai. More likely,the men willstart to accept women. The BT is more like the AOL Aes Sedai anyway. They allow families to enter, not just the channelers themselves. Everything Nynaeve said after the testing - the Ashanman have. They just have to clean out the trash first and change some of their more destructive policies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rand jokingly claims to be an Aes Sedai, and it stands to reason the White Tower will eventually start accepting men again, assuming the good guys win. There's no reason to think the Asha'man wouldn't eventually start accepting women.

 

Lews Therin was an Aes Sedai and since Rand and LTT are one and the same now Rand technically is an Aes Sedai. I have a feeling that the Black Tower will be destroyed and Aes Sedai and Asha'man will be working together like the Aes Sedai in the AoL(which is why Egwene saw the Ancient Aes Sedai symbol).

 

I think we'll find that the world is over Aes Sedai. More likely,the men willstart to accept women. The BT is more like the AOL Aes Sedai anyway. They allow families to enter, not just the channelers themselves. Everything Nynaeve said after the testing - the Ashanman have. They just have to clean out the trash first and change some of their more destructive policies.

In Avi's vision the BT and the WT remain separate institutions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rand jokingly claims to be an Aes Sedai, and it stands to reason the White Tower will eventually start accepting men again, assuming the good guys win. There's no reason to think the Asha'man wouldn't eventually start accepting women.

 

Lews Therin was an Aes Sedai and since Rand and LTT are one and the same now Rand technically is an Aes Sedai. I have a feeling that the Black Tower will be destroyed and Aes Sedai and Asha'man will be working together like the Aes Sedai in the AoL(which is why Egwene saw the Ancient Aes Sedai symbol).

 

I think we'll find that the world is over Aes Sedai. More likely,the men willstart to accept women. The BT is more like the AOL Aes Sedai anyway. They allow families to enter, not just the channelers themselves. Everything Nynaeve said after the testing - the Ashanman have. They just have to clean out the trash first and change some of their more destructive policies.

In Avi's vision the BT and the WT remain separate institutions.

 

And Avi's vision might not be entirely true...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, here is a curious thought. At one point one of the Forsaken, I forget which, and in which book mentions something about the Aes Sedai's "silly oaths". So did anyone else make the connection that in the AoL they never had anything similar? Maybe this is widely known or has been discussed on these forums in the past, I don't know. Anyways, I thought of this because in ToM Nynaeve finally swears on the oath rod, or she says that she's going to at least. We never see it happen and it's never mentioned after that chapter that I remember.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, here is a curious thought. At one point one of the Forsaken, I forget which, and in which book mentions something about the Aes Sedai's "silly oaths". So did anyone else make the connection that in the AoL they never had anything similar? Maybe this is widely known or has been discussed on these forums in the past, I don't know. Anyways, I thought of this because in ToM Nynaeve finally swears on the oath rod, or she says that she's going to at least. We never see it happen and it's never mentioned after that chapter that I remember.

 

it does get mentioned that she took the 3 oaths and there was no oaths in the AoL, but the oath rod existed. the 3 oaths got instated after the Breaking.

Edited by GB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been discussed at great length. The rod was a binder used in the AoL on criminals who could channel. They were forced to take oaths on it to prevent them committing crimes again. It cuts down on lifespan and stretches the skin giving the ageless look that AS have. Other channelers get wrinkles but they live much longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, here is a curious thought. At one point one of the Forsaken, I forget which, and in which book mentions something about the Aes Sedai's "silly oaths". So did anyone else make the connection that in the AoL they never had anything similar? Maybe this is widely known or has been discussed on these forums in the past, I don't know. Anyways, I thought of this because in ToM Nynaeve finally swears on the oath rod, or she says that she's going to at least. We never see it happen and it's never mentioned after that chapter that I remember.

 

it does get mentioned that she took the 3 oaths and there was no oaths in the AoL, but the oath rod existed. the 3 oaths got instated after the Breaking.

 

The 'oath rods' were a tool of last resort during the AoL. They were used to bind (hence called a Binding Rod) someone from performing certain actions. Semirhage was to be Bound from doing harm to her patients and chose to flee to the Dark One instead, unwilling to submit herself to the Rod.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The oath rod thing is something that I think Jordan meant to be a big reveal in later books, but it was one of his flops, I think. He spread it too thin over too long a timeframe. So much so that instead of being a "oh wow!" reveal it's something that was revealed so poorly that a lot of people don't even seem to realize that it was a reveal at all. To tell the truth, I probably wouldn't either if I didn't read a lot of the FAQ stuff.

 

The three oaths were not a part of the AoL Aes Sedai. The purpose and organization of Aes Sedai was completely different in the AoL, so there really would have been no reason for the three oaths.

 

The reason that the Forsaken show amusement and a little disdain for the oaths is that the oath rod that the Aes Sedai see as a honor and center of ceremony was actually a binding rods in the AoL, and used on convicted criminals!

 

Just some other tidbits....

 

-Being binded by the oaths basically halves the lifespan of the Aes Sedai. This is why it was signifigant that the women of the Kin lived 600 years. They weren't bound by the oaths.

 

-The binding effect of the oath rod is what gives the Aes Sedai thier ageless look. It's basically a facelift type effect where the binding physically pulls the skin tight.

 

-This was the basis for the brief back and forth between Egwene and Suian about whether the Aes Sedai should give up the three oaths(because it was halving thier lifespan).

 

-Suian was able to convince Egwene that the oaths were important to define what it is to be Aes Sedai, so Egwene is back on board for keeping with tradition, with the possibility of allowing retiring Aes Sedai to be unbound, hopefully lengthening thier lifespan.

 

I think that about sums it up. Anything important I missed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-Suian was able to convince Egwene that the oaths were important to define what it is to be Aes Sedai

 

One of the few times when i thought Siuan might be a bit dumb. What´s the point of the oaths anyway? To get people to trust them? Nobody does. Everybody knows they only follow the letter and not the spirit of the oaths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-Suian was able to convince Egwene that the oaths were important to define what it is to be Aes Sedai

 

One of the few times when i thought Siuan might be a bit dumb. What´s the point of the oaths anyway? To get people to trust them? Nobody does. Everybody knows they only follow the letter and not the spirit of the oaths.

 

I tend to agree.

 

I had to repeat the point, but I think Jordan tried to make too much out of this. What should have been a fairly straightforward, decent "oh cool, so that's why this is such and such" was turned into this big thing.

 

Suian gives a great, impassioned speech that I think had a lot of valid points. Lemme see if I can find it....

 

“The Oaths hold us together, a stated set of beliefs that bind us all, a single thread running through every sister, living or dead, back to the first to lay her hands on the Oath Rod. They are what make us Aes Sedai, not saidar.”

 

Suian is certainly correct in that a unifying set of ideals is important to an organization to bring order and meaning. However, even when you take away the big practical problem of halving lifespans for the sake of these oaths, I still find the ideological basis for them to be suspect if not downright pointless.

 

The only one that really does anything of meaning is the one that forbids sisters from using the One Power as a weapon. Though the fact that sisters can still intimidate anyone from rulers to beggars with the One Power(weaves of Air and the like) into doing what they want, this one basically becomes, "Though shalt not kill in cold blood with the One Power"(simce you can use it in defense of your life or your Warder's). Seems like maybe some morals and a strictly enforced rule might be enough to tackle that one.

 

The one preventing sisters from creating weapons with the power from the beginning has seemed such a throwaway for me. Is it really that important? So a guy has to sharpen his sword or buy a new one instead of having a perma-sword. Oh noes, break out the oaths!

 

And finally, the monument to hypocrisy and Aes Sedai's legacy of adhering to the letter of a law rather then the spirit, the oath about not lying. Can't decide if it's sad or just funny that they think this oath instills a sense of trust in the general population! I get the mentality that "well, they know when it comes right down to it that if a sister says something straight out, they mean it!". But you know what, the fact is that we have repeatedly seen from pretty much everyone that the actual result is that unless a sister says something straight out, no one beleives ANYTHING they say, and even when they say it straight out, everyone looks for loop holes! Funny(or maybe just said) because no one reacts with anything but respect and trust when the Wise Ones say something!

 

All in all, I find it just kind of dissapointing. Jordan clearly fell on the side of the three oaths. So much so that he gave Suian this big speech that I really think was meant to be inspiring and meaningful and a testament to what virtues the Aes Sedai stands for. But to a point, I think the three oaths(and especially the lying bit) is a testament to what is wrong with Aes Sedai.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one preventing sisters from creating weapons with the power from the beginning has seemed such a throwaway for me. Is it really that important? So a guy has to sharpen his sword or buy a new one instead of having a perma-sword. Oh noes, break out the oaths!

If the good guys were doing battle against matchstick-wielding bad guys, I would agree. Unfortunately, the Dark One's minions ARE using power-wrought weapons, and therein lies the problem.

 

Yes, in the time after the breaking when people were only going up against each other, making and using power-wrought weapons gave some an unfair advantage. Hence, making an oath to abstain from that activity was a good idea for that time.

 

Times have changed. Unless the good guys bring the full force of their resources to the battle, including wielding power-wrought weapons, it will be like the good guys are sending lightly armed infantry to stand up against tanks and cannonfire. The non-channelers amongst the good guys need something to level the playing field, or else the only leveling they do will be to fill in the valleys with their own dead bodies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I don't think this is their reasoning but there is still a positive side to the oaths. Now, with non-Aes Sedai channelers out there, normal people will put the Aes Sedai above those who don't take the three oaths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...