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My problem with Elayne is that she really hasn't grown any. I mean, she was probably more mature and readier for her role than any of the core 6, cause she was prepared for it since she was a child. But all that means is that there isn't a lot of growth for her. Maybe - MAYBE - she's starting to exhibit it in this book, though it's a little weird that she's all worried about the effect of the oath rod on her kids, but just blithely goes to question DF's on her own.

 

I agree with many of you over being put off by things Elayne does and says in ToM. To me, her development seems hindered by overweening arrogance--she is a rich playgirl! Just as there are rich playboys in real life, she is the female counterpart. And if you have ever met a rich playboy or playgirl, you know what I mean!

 

Though she has been schooled for leadership, at this time she seems to be more calculating over her power and control as opposed to understanding the people she allegedly represents. Rand has always been far more aware of the needs of the average people, although during the time when the DO was moving to get his grips on him he more than neglected the responsibility. But he was a sheepherder! Elayne has never had to work a day in her life.

And although she has shown great courage at many points, she also--like many people at the ages of 18-20 that we have all known in real life, and this also especially rings true for those who have never gone hungry in real life--somehow thinks she is invincible. She uses Min's viewings as a rationalization, of course (and that is a human fault that we each and every one of us at times may rationalize a bad decision).

 

When she's good I have liked her. She's not stupid. But in this book she lost me completely with her power trip over the Two Rivers. (And she has had two years to think through and analyze the fact that Rand told her way back then that people in the Two Rivers were not even aware that Andor claimed them.) "Mine! Mine!" And she's threatening execution.

 

If she died and left Morgase to raise her kids, it'd be fine with me at this point! Morgase has had altogether new experiences in life now, and is much the wiser for it.

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To be honest I quite enjoyed the part in Winters Heart where Taim seemed to be the only one in the book who just couldn't care less about Elayne's superiority complex. Not only does he refuse her summons repeatedly, he arrives late, then he refuses to wait when Elayne out of pettiness attempts to make him wait in a weak display of power, he then simply smiles in her face as she yells at him, he then interrupts her tirade with a subtle threat that throws Elayne completely off her line of thought. It certainly warmed my heart towards Taim as a character.

 

 

I find it a shame such an occurrence didn't happen again. In my opinion it would help keep Elayne and her ego from going up too far into the sky.

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Are you serious? A medallion that prevents you from direct attack with the One Power isn't a weapon? In a war in which both sides have channelers? Don't be a silly bugger.

uhm I believe the definition of weapon is something that can be used to attack. The medallion cannot be used to attack unless against a gholam. Its a shield, and in fact a rather weak one since Elayne mentioned that stronger weaves can penetrate the shield

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My problem with Elayne is that she really hasn't grown any. I mean, she was probably more mature and readier for her role than any of the core 6, cause she was prepared for it since she was a child. But all that means is that there isn't a lot of growth for her. Maybe - MAYBE - she's starting to exhibit it in this book, though it's a little weird that she's all worried about the effect of the oath rod on her kids, but just blithely goes to question DF's on her own.

 

I agree with many of you over being put off by things Elayne does and says in ToM. To me, her development seems hindered by overweening arrogance--she is a rich playgirl! Just as there are rich playboys in real life, she is the female counterpart. And if you have ever met a rich playboy or playgirl, you know what I mean!

 

Though she has been schooled for leadership, at this time she seems to be more calculating over her power and control as opposed to understanding the people she allegedly represents. Rand has always been far more aware of the needs of the average people, although during the time when the DO was moving to get his grips on him he more than neglected the responsibility. But he was a sheepherder! Elayne has never had to work a day in her life.

 

Well, technically, Elayne has worked at least one day in her life... as a show performer with the infamous Valan Luca ;) Also, lets not forget her work in the White Tower while still a novice, or her chores in Salidar.

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My problem with Elayne is that she really hasn't grown any. I mean, she was probably more mature and readier for her role than any of the core 6, cause she was prepared for it since she was a child. But all that means is that there isn't a lot of growth for her. Maybe - MAYBE - she's starting to exhibit it in this book, though it's a little weird that she's all worried about the effect of the oath rod on her kids, but just blithely goes to question DF's on her own.

 

I agree with many of you over being put off by things Elayne does and says in ToM. To me, her development seems hindered by overweening arrogance--she is a rich playgirl! Just as there are rich playboys in real life, she is the female counterpart. And if you have ever met a rich playboy or playgirl, you know what I mean!

 

Though she has been schooled for leadership, at this time she seems to be more calculating over her power and control as opposed to understanding the people she allegedly represents. Rand has always been far more aware of the needs of the average people, although during the time when the DO was moving to get his grips on him he more than neglected the responsibility. But he was a sheepherder! Elayne has never had to work a day in her life.

And although she has shown great courage at many points, she also--like many people at the ages of 18-20 that we have all known in real life, and this also especially rings true for those who have never gone hungry in real life--somehow thinks she is invincible. She uses Min's viewings as a rationalization, of course (and that is a human fault that we each and every one of us at times may rationalize a bad decision).

 

When she's good I have liked her. She's not stupid. But in this book she lost me completely with her power trip over the Two Rivers. (And she has had two years to think through and analyze the fact that Rand told her way back then that people in the Two Rivers were not even aware that Andor claimed them.) "Mine! Mine!" And she's threatening execution.

 

If she died and left Morgase to raise her kids, it'd be fine with me at this point! Morgase has had altogether new experiences in life now, and is much the wiser for it.

 

Well she only slept with one guy, once..

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So ruling a country is not work? I wonder why they pay all those presidents and Prime ministers around the world all those money then...;)

 

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't see Elayne as all that arrogant, especially considering other characters in the series which are in similar position. The average Aes Sedai with way less strength in the Power and who's not a Queen is usually more arrogant for example, and the same applies to most nobles we've seen. Note that she had no problem leaving Nynaeve, a villager from the back end of nowhere, to take the lead most of the time when they were travelling around the world, and never tried to use her noble birth as an argument that she should be the leader in the partnership. Unlike Egwene, she doesn't force her friends to treat her like a queen in private, she let's them call her Elayne, talk freely to her and even scold her severely, and don't make them bow or anything like that.

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I thought Elaida had that foretelling when Morgase was holding the throne of Andor. I wasn't talking about any prophecy, as I can't recall any that talked about Andor.

I thought that was her first fortelling, when her/Moiraine/Siuane were all still accepted. So she "attached herself" to Morgase as soon as she was able to.

Edited by f3llyn
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I don't get the anger towards Elayne based on her actions. In fact, I blame it on BS and RJ for rehashing the same formula over and over. It gets too repetitive. I like Elayne and the way she thinks in terms of political and social settings. She is gonna be an awesome Queen.

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I like that fact that Elayne is one of the few (only--non-aiel) female characters to support Rand, because she seems him as a ruler and not a farmboy like the others. But other than that she is a total spoiled brat.

 

I also find her naivety to be quite amusing, too. She wants to so desperately be like Mat but she fails in almost all cases.

Edited by f3llyn
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What are you talking about, you can tell she will side with Egwene all through AMOL and would have in the last couple books. She thinks the same things that the AS and Egwene do. That he needs to be controled and directed at their will. It's not as obvious as Egwene, but it's pretty blatant.

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To be honest I quite enjoyed the part in Winters Heart where Taim seemed to be the only one in the book who just couldn't care less about Elayne's superiority complex. Not only does he refuse her summons repeatedly, he arrives late, then he refuses to wait when Elayne out of pettiness attempts to make him wait in a weak display of power, he then simply smiles in her face as she yells at him, he then interrupts her tirade with a subtle threat that throws Elayne completely off her line of thought. It certainly warmed my heart towards Taim as a character.

 

 

I find it a shame such an occurrence didn't happen again. In my opinion it would help keep Elayne and her ego from going up too far into the sky.

 

Thats because Taim is an awesome character. Very underused. Not many other people have the presence of Taim. He is so up himself that he barely bows to Rand; Elayne had no chance :P

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I also find her naivety to be quite amusing, too. She wants to so desperately be like Mat but she fails in almost all cases.

 

The few times Mat and Elayne are together are some of my favourite scenes in WoT. I really hope we get a scene with her giving him a title. Who knows? Now that Gawyn is busy with Egwene, maybe Elayne will make Mat her First Prince of the Sword. He'd be an excellent choice for leading Andor's armies and, more importantly, a title like that would see him climbing the drapes.

 

Whether he wins or loses, whenever someone backs Mat into a corner just makes for really fun reading.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edited to fix a typo)

Edited by dwn
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....

 

I quite liked her Forsaken impersonation plan. What I didn't like is how the perfect timing of their escape foiled it. It felt contrived, to me. I'm also a bit puzzled why Elayne hadn't turned over the Black Sisters to the Tower. I think that situation could have been handled better with more graceful writing.

 

 

I agree, 100%!! I really liked the idea to impersonate the Forsaken! A very shrewd plan.... But the perfect synchronicity of the Darkfriends!! On that very day!! At that precise hour!! *GASP* At that very minute... They launch a SURPRISE RESCUE!! Again, we get to see Elayne dominated by these very same people.... Will she survive? Was Min's viewing accurate? What if it's all bullsh*t and this is where she might die? Feel the tension!!

 

Hey, Wait a minute: Didn't we already have a scene with her incapacitated in a dungeon? Yeah, back in The Dragon Reborn. And didn't she get snarled up with those same Black Ajah just a short while ago? Yeah, okay, tell me again why she went down into those cells without telling anyone of actual consequence, with no back-up plan or support? oh! I get it! She's headstrong! She takes risks! Her babies are destined to be okay!

 

*BARF*

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....

 

I quite liked her Forsaken impersonation plan. What I didn't like is how the perfect timing of their escape foiled it. It felt contrived, to me. I'm also a bit puzzled why Elayne hadn't turned over the Black Sisters to the Tower. I think that situation could have been handled better with more graceful writing.

 

 

I agree, 100%!! I really liked the idea to impersonate the Forsaken! A very shrewd plan.... But the perfect synchronicity of the Darkfriends!! On that very day!! At that precise hour!! *GASP* At that very minute... They launch a SURPRISE RESCUE!! Again, we get to see Elayne dominated by these very same people.... Will she survive? Was Min's viewing accurate? What if it's all bullsh*t and this is where she might die? Feel the tension!!

 

Hey, Wait a minute: Didn't we already have a scene with her incapacitated in a dungeon? Yeah, back in The Dragon Reborn. And didn't she get snarled up with those same Black Ajah just a short while ago? Yeah, okay, tell me again why she went down into those cells without telling anyone of actual consequence, with no back-up plan or support? oh! I get it! She's headstrong! She takes risks! Her babies are destined to be okay!

 

*BARF*

 

I should point out that the reason Elayne still had custody of the BA is that Egwene hadn't unified the Tower yet. I wrote that before doing the math on Elayne's timeline. I still think the timing was a bit too perfect to feel natural.

 

-- dwn

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do we have an accurate timeline on each of the events in TOM now? I'm still not sure when what happened, except for the obvious ones. It would help in assessing the situations a lot.

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do we have an accurate timeline on each of the events in TOM now? I'm still not sure when what happened, except for the obvious ones. It would help in assessing the situations a lot.

 

I posted a very rough one in the typo/errata thread, using Veins of Gold as a reference point. Mat, Elayne and Perrin are roughly in the same time frame, a week or so behind Rand and Egwene. The only weird hiccup is when Elayne meets with Egwene and Nynaeve in T'A'R; Elayne is seen there a couple weeks ahead of her own PoVs. The timelines all sync up around when Gawyn goes back to Caemlyn.

 

I believe BS stated the Black Tower arc was a bit behind the others at the end of ToM. This fits because Perrin intended to check out the gateway blockage there within a couple days of arriving in Andor. It's quite possible the BT arc is resolved before the meeting at the Field of Merrilor.

 

-- dwn

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To be honest, I find Elayne to be among the more irritating characters in the entire series, and it's got nothing to do with BS's writing style.

 

Her plan to get more information - while being clever in its own right, was poorly planned and I suppose that's part of her entire character - she's supposed to be this recklessly brave individual (drawing parallels, I suppose, to Ilyena Sunhair). What annoys me is that she's being portrayed in two different ways; the first being this recklessly poor planner of a person, the second being Thom's intellectual love-child with her seemingly adept feel for the Game of Houses. Even Morgase is falling down at Elayne's feet over how brilliant a Queen she's going to be.

 

I don't really think you can have both personality types, personally. It just doesn't feel right.

In what way was it poorly planned? How could the plan have been refined?

 

A simple tackle? This is how you can hurt a powerful channeller holding the Source and watching you carefully? What are the odds of that happening? It's more likely for Elayne to be hit by a meteor standing in her garden. Especially considering Chesmal is an Aes Sedai and is used to do everything with the Power.

 

And don't think bringing up 20 guards in the dungeon with all the commotion this would lead to would alert Temaile that something is fishy?

Yes ,a simple tackle.Said channeler was pregnant afterall and while up to that point that meant that she had trouble starting to channel , it could also interfere with other aspects as well.Sure , you might say, but that hadn't happened up until that point so it was unlikely to happen.Thing is , that's the problem : she did not stop to give that or anything else a thought.
Except she knows that her babies will be born healthy. Now, that doesn't mean no harm can befall her, nor does it mean those around her are safe, but she does have a guarantee of safety to some extent. So, what risk is posed by a simple tackle? Miscarriage is impossible, and she has plenty of Healers in the city if she does suffer any injury. The situation was:

Elayne could channel, the person she was interrogating was shielded,

She has guards outside,

She can't lose her kids, and is very unlikely to suffer any permanent, serious injury to her own person,

No-one else is being put at risk,

She was masquerading as an ally.

There really was no reasonable risk of any serious harm coming to herself or anyone else as a result of her plan. I still have yet to see any decent explanation for why what she did in the dungeon was in any way foolish or poorly planned.

 

There are a large variety of ways she could have come to serious harm - losing a leg, or an arm - being seriously disfigured, being captured, being put under heavy compulsion are just a few.

Captured by the shielded prisoner in Elayne's dungeon when Elayne's guards were just outside? Be seriously disfigured? Well, I'm sure the Light will truly be screwed if they have to manage without her pretty face. And very impressive if the unarmed woman could sever an arm or leg, given the easily available Healing. Compulsion requires use of the Power, and the woman was shielded. No real risk on any of those grounds.

 

The key isn't that there is a major likelihood that something will happen - it's that the possible consequences are so vast, that it's a terrible risk.
The consequences if Rand dies are far worse. He takes greater risks than she did here without getting called an idiot for some of those things. Elayne took a very minor risk, with little possibility of anything happening, and less possibility of any serious consequences.

 

Elayne went back and forth for me in this book. On the one hand, I liked the way that she was trying to make Andor as strong and secure as possible to both be able to help Rand in the Last Battle and counter the Seanchan in the post-LB world, but on the other hand, given the number of times that she's been captured because of her idiocy, did she not figure that maybe going down alone to meet with the BA might not have been a good idea? Also, why were those BA's there anyways? Either execute them for being Darkfriends or toss them up to the Tower where there's more Aes Sedai to deal with them. It seems silly to just have them sitting around with a couple of people holding shields on them when she's personally seen how the Shadow sends people into dungeons to kill off captured BA members.

 

 

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

Don't give me that crap, that plan was brilliant. She had a shit ton of back up. The guardswomen on the other side of the gateway and the Kin on the other side of the cell door. The reason the plan failed is she's unlucky. The odds of her being interrupted by a successful escape attempt is astronomical. Mat's plan was far more risky in comparison and could have easily got Talmanes and the red arms killed. But of course since Mat's taveren he succeeded. That's all there is to it.

 

You're being sarcastic? It's hard to tell from your post..you don't really mean it was a brilliant plan? It was completely ridiculous is what it was, and another example of why Elayne has no business having the power she does. Every success she's ever had has been due to the acts and counsel of others. She stood on people's shoulders (Rand, Mat, Dyelin, Birgitte, etc.) to achieve what she has, and is somehow convinced she had something to do with it. It is mind-boggling how things like this are becoming such a noticeable pattern amongst the women in the series. Egwene behaves nearly as bad as she does, but I'd rather see Elayne bite the dust, kids or not, it'd be worth it to see her get killed because of her foolishness.

Oh joy, someone else saying Elayne's plan was stupid, with absolutely no justification.

 

fact is and remains, she doesn't learn from her previous mistakes that led to almost disasters time and again. When facing the Black Ajah and the Forsaken with the DO half free, you don't leave ànything to chance. Especially when you're leading a nation that's supposed to play a pivotal role in the LB. For one thing, if Birgitte had been outside guarding the door, Elayne would have known the moment the other BA arrived through the bond alone and would have been forewarned. That alone is a serious tactical mistake.
You can't control all variables, and therefore you have to leave things to chance. She was not in any serious danger from any realistic risk. To go further would be paranoid.

 

 

Do any of you Elayne defenders want to explain how failing to share with Mat the fact that she has given a rather important new weapon (the copy) to the Shadow is in any way responsible?
She didn't give it to the Shadow. And why should she tell Mat? Now, telling other channelers that there is a Darkfriend out there with a device that protects against direct weaves might help. Telling Mat? Irrelevant.

 

And although she has shown great courage at many points, she also--like many people at the ages of 18-20 that we have all known in real life, and this also especially rings true for those who have never gone hungry in real life--somehow thinks she is invincible. She uses Min's viewings as a rationalization, of course (and that is a human fault that we each and every one of us at times may rationalize a bad decision).

 

When she's good I have liked her. She's not stupid. But in this book she lost me completely with her power trip over the Two Rivers. (And she has had two years to think through and analyze the fact that Rand told her way back then that people in the Two Rivers were not even aware that Andor claimed them.) "Mine! Mine!" And she's threatening execution.

Power trip? You mean her attempt to stabilise her rule? Perrin was, intentionally or not, a rebel. That rebellion had to be put down, and she couldn't be seen rewarding him for his actions. Rewarding him or ignoring his rebellion both work against her, as they encourage further rebellion.

 

So, I've still not seen any decent reason why going into your own dungeons, with your own armed guards outside, disguised as an ally, armed with the Power, to interrogate an unarmed and shielded prisoner is a stupid plan or a massive risk. Really, it seems like people are just saying this decision was stupid because they think it's mandatory for her to make at least one massive cock up per book.

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I stand behind elaynes actions 100%, she had to appear to be taking a tough stance on the 'rebels'

 

 

now for something I think is more interesting. I think Andor is going to break in half, after the shadowspawn have destroyed the city, and once the shadows armies that over run kandor come south I think that the band and the other military groups are going to be pushed back.

 

I think Andor is doomed. Especially since almost any noteworthy army is in the field of merillor,

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Are you serious? A medallion that prevents you from direct attack with the One Power isn't a weapon? In a war in which both sides have channelers? Don't be a silly bugger.

uhm I believe the definition of weapon is something that can be used to attack. The medallion cannot be used to attack unless against a gholam. Its a shield, and in fact a rather weak one since Elayne mentioned that stronger weaves can penetrate the shield

I don't really want to get drawn into this debate, so all I'm going to say is this: those faux-medallions are only useless to channelers for the Dark.

 

They could just as easily give it to Myrdraal or something - and then what? Super Fade?

 

Being immune to the OP will have its advantages for someone in the Dark One's forces, that is for sure.

Edited by Demon_AS
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To be honest, I find Elayne to be among the more irritating characters in the entire series, and it's got nothing to do with BS's writing style.

 

Her plan to get more information - while being clever in its own right, was poorly planned and I suppose that's part of her entire character - she's supposed to be this recklessly brave individual (drawing parallels, I suppose, to Ilyena Sunhair). What annoys me is that she's being portrayed in two different ways; the first being this recklessly poor planner of a person, the second being Thom's intellectual love-child with her seemingly adept feel for the Game of Houses. Even Morgase is falling down at Elayne's feet over how brilliant a Queen she's going to be.

 

I don't really think you can have both personality types, personally. It just doesn't feel right.

In what way was it poorly planned? How could the plan have been refined?

 

A simple tackle? This is how you can hurt a powerful channeller holding the Source and watching you carefully? What are the odds of that happening? It's more likely for Elayne to be hit by a meteor standing in her garden. Especially considering Chesmal is an Aes Sedai and is used to do everything with the Power.

 

And don't think bringing up 20 guards in the dungeon with all the commotion this would lead to would alert Temaile that something is fishy?

Yes ,a simple tackle.Said channeler was pregnant afterall and while up to that point that meant that she had trouble starting to channel , it could also interfere with other aspects as well.Sure , you might say, but that hadn't happened up until that point so it was unlikely to happen.Thing is , that's the problem : she did not stop to give that or anything else a thought.
Except she knows that her babies will be born healthy. Now, that doesn't mean no harm can befall her, nor does it mean those around her are safe, but she does have a guarantee of safety to some extent. So, what risk is posed by a simple tackle? Miscarriage is impossible, and she has plenty of Healers in the city if she does suffer any injury. The situation was:

Elayne could channel, the person she was interrogating was shielded,

She has guards outside,

She can't lose her kids, and is very unlikely to suffer any permanent, serious injury to her own person,

No-one else is being put at risk,

She was masquerading as an ally.

There really was no reasonable risk of any serious harm coming to herself or anyone else as a result of her plan. I still have yet to see any decent explanation for why what she did in the dungeon was in any way foolish or poorly planned.

 

There are a large variety of ways she could have come to serious harm - losing a leg, or an arm - being seriously disfigured, being captured, being put under heavy compulsion are just a few.

Captured by the shielded prisoner in Elayne's dungeon when Elayne's guards were just outside? Be seriously disfigured? Well, I'm sure the Light will truly be screwed if they have to manage without her pretty face. And very impressive if the unarmed woman could sever an arm or leg, given the easily available Healing. Compulsion requires use of the Power, and the woman was shielded. No real risk on any of those grounds.

 

The key isn't that there is a major likelihood that something will happen - it's that the possible consequences are so vast, that it's a terrible risk.
The consequences if Rand dies are far worse. He takes greater risks than she did here without getting called an idiot for some of those things. Elayne took a very minor risk, with little possibility of anything happening, and less possibility of any serious consequences.

 

Elayne went back and forth for me in this book. On the one hand, I liked the way that she was trying to make Andor as strong and secure as possible to both be able to help Rand in the Last Battle and counter the Seanchan in the post-LB world, but on the other hand, given the number of times that she's been captured because of her idiocy, did she not figure that maybe going down alone to meet with the BA might not have been a good idea? Also, why were those BA's there anyways? Either execute them for being Darkfriends or toss them up to the Tower where there's more Aes Sedai to deal with them. It seems silly to just have them sitting around with a couple of people holding shields on them when she's personally seen how the Shadow sends people into dungeons to kill off captured BA members.

 

 

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

Don't give me that crap, that plan was brilliant. She had a shit ton of back up. The guardswomen on the other side of the gateway and the Kin on the other side of the cell door. The reason the plan failed is she's unlucky. The odds of her being interrupted by a successful escape attempt is astronomical. Mat's plan was far more risky in comparison and could have easily got Talmanes and the red arms killed. But of course since Mat's taveren he succeeded. That's all there is to it.

 

You're being sarcastic? It's hard to tell from your post..you don't really mean it was a brilliant plan? It was completely ridiculous is what it was, and another example of why Elayne has no business having the power she does. Every success she's ever had has been due to the acts and counsel of others. She stood on people's shoulders (Rand, Mat, Dyelin, Birgitte, etc.) to achieve what she has, and is somehow convinced she had something to do with it. It is mind-boggling how things like this are becoming such a noticeable pattern amongst the women in the series. Egwene behaves nearly as bad as she does, but I'd rather see Elayne bite the dust, kids or not, it'd be worth it to see her get killed because of her foolishness.

Oh joy, someone else saying Elayne's plan was stupid, with absolutely no justification.

 

fact is and remains, she doesn't learn from her previous mistakes that led to almost disasters time and again. When facing the Black Ajah and the Forsaken with the DO half free, you don't leave ànything to chance. Especially when you're leading a nation that's supposed to play a pivotal role in the LB. For one thing, if Birgitte had been outside guarding the door, Elayne would have known the moment the other BA arrived through the bond alone and would have been forewarned. That alone is a serious tactical mistake.
You can't control all variables, and therefore you have to leave things to chance. She was not in any serious danger from any realistic risk. To go further would be paranoid.

 

 

Do any of you Elayne defenders want to explain how failing to share with Mat the fact that she has given a rather important new weapon (the copy) to the Shadow is in any way responsible?
She didn't give it to the Shadow. And why should she tell Mat? Now, telling other channelers that there is a Darkfriend out there with a device that protects against direct weaves might help. Telling Mat? Irrelevant.

 

And although she has shown great courage at many points, she also--like many people at the ages of 18-20 that we have all known in real life, and this also especially rings true for those who have never gone hungry in real life--somehow thinks she is invincible. She uses Min's viewings as a rationalization, of course (and that is a human fault that we each and every one of us at times may rationalize a bad decision).

 

When she's good I have liked her. She's not stupid. But in this book she lost me completely with her power trip over the Two Rivers. (And she has had two years to think through and analyze the fact that Rand told her way back then that people in the Two Rivers were not even aware that Andor claimed them.) "Mine! Mine!" And she's threatening execution.

Power trip? You mean her attempt to stabilise her rule? Perrin was, intentionally or not, a rebel. That rebellion had to be put down, and she couldn't be seen rewarding him for his actions. Rewarding him or ignoring his rebellion both work against her, as they encourage further rebellion.

 

So, I've still not seen any decent reason why going into your own dungeons, with your own armed guards outside, disguised as an ally, armed with the Power, to interrogate an unarmed and shielded prisoner is a stupid plan or a massive risk. Really, it seems like people are just saying this decision was stupid because they think it's mandatory for her to make at least one massive cock up per book.

 

Elayne knew it was a dumb idea BEFORE she did it.

 

"That means that the two of them have gone out for drinks", Elayne said with a sigh. Light, this was a bad time for it.

 

Or was it a good time? Birgitte couldn't object to Elayne's plan for the Black Ajah if she was out with Mat."

 

Later, she overrode the attempt at objections by her guards.

 

Honestly - what's the point of having a Warder if you are going to not only ignore their warnings, but act in a way where they cannot even object to your dumb plans?

 

I like Elayne - I think she's a pretty strong character, though she's not one of my favorites. But she does really stupid things...

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yes but how often do warders run off to somewhere, where they cannot help their AS. it is as much brigittes fault as elaynes imo.

 

plus Elayne had a very solid plan, it is very hard to anticipate darkfriends coming into the picture when your planning

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do we have an accurate timeline on each of the events in TOM now? I'm still not sure when what happened, except for the obvious ones. It would help in assessing the situations a lot.

 

I posted a very rough one in the typo/errata thread, using Veins of Gold as a reference point. Mat, Elayne and Perrin are roughly in the same time frame, a week or so behind Rand and Egwene. The only weird hiccup is when Elayne meets with Egwene and Nynaeve in T'A'R; Elayne is seen there a couple weeks ahead of her own PoVs. The timelines all sync up around when Gawyn goes back to Caemlyn.

 

I believe BS stated the Black Tower arc was a bit behind the others at the end of ToM. This fits because Perrin intended to check out the gateway blockage there within a couple days of arriving in Andor. It's quite possible the BT arc is resolved before the meeting at the Field of Merrilor.

 

-- dwn

 

Timelines - somethings are now clear. But lots of gaps

Rand has a big Gap ~20 days between his trip to Bandar Eban (VoG+4) and his rescue of Ituralde (VoG+25). If he rescues Lan, he does it at that time.

Mat - met Elayne around VoG-12. Demonstrated the dragons VoG -5 Was in Caemlyn around VoG-20. Aligns again after that when he meets Perrin (VoG+7 or so) and goes to Ghenji on VoG+26. We don't know when he came out. Gap in the middle.

Perrin aligns - was present on VoG.Fought Slayer on VoG +5, rescued Whitecloaks VoG 6 and was in Andor again VoG + 7-8. Meets Elayne (VoG +9)

Big Gap then till he goes to Field of Merrilor (VoG+26).

Lan? Feels the bond transfer (VoG+4) when he's in Arafel. We don't know when he charges for Tarwin's Gap. If he's to be rescued by Rand it has to be between VoG +5 and VoG +24. Assuming the attacks out of the Blight were coordinated, Egwene learns about them by VoG 4-5.

BT first mention is not quite a month after Algarin arrives with Logain (KoD ch 18) - that's roughly VoG -30

Then it's post D-Spike in the period after VoG + 6 when Androl hitches up with Pevara

Last mention from another PoV is VoG +25 when Naeff is sent to check stuff out post the Ituralde rescue and just before Rand goes to Far Madding.

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Normally I like Elayne's character with her strong will and confidence but it was altered quite a bit in ToM, IMO. It seems as though Elayne and Egwene are feeding off each other's mindset on how to use people. When Rand was doing so, he at least registered that he needed to shift from such a path but the despicable nature of thinking only of how to use someone doesn't even seem to register on Elayne and Egwene's mind.

Her attitude towards Perrin was also quite shocking, in the sense that her diplomacy was almost non-existent! Elayne as Queen thinks only of Andor and although that is admirable in a monarch's qualities, I would say the primary focus should be TG and not about expanding control over the land.

Edited by Shimmer
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