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Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

Perrin is not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.
I'm sure if you say it enough times it will come true. Until then, I must reiterate what I have said previously

 

You don´t see the irony in your statement? Of the pot and kettle variety?

 

Perrin has agreed to let Elayne convince other Andoran nobles that TR is a part of Andor. And to join in an alliance with Andor.

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Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

Perrin is not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.
I'm sure if you say it enough times it will come true. Until then, I must reiterate what I have said previously

 

You don´t see the irony in your statement? Of the pot and kettle variety?

 

Perrin has agreed to let Elayne convince other Andoran nobles that TR is a part of Andor. And to join in an alliance with Andor.

 

Oh I love how you just managed to ignore Mr Ares' important statement immediately after that quote that Perrin himself ADMITTED that TR was part of Andor.

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Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

Perrin is not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.
I'm sure if you say it enough times it will come true. Until then, I must reiterate what I have said previously

 

You don´t see the irony in your statement? Of the pot and kettle variety?

 

Perrin has agreed to let Elayne convince other Andoran nobles that TR is a part of Andor. And to join in an alliance with Andor.

Where are you getting that the Two Rivers isn't a part of Andor? Specific quotes? References? Any evidence at ALL to back up this ridiculous claim?

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Everybody's assuming Elayne is not in Caemlyn when the Trollocs bust through the Waygate. We just don't know whether that's true. IIRC, it's evening when Olver opens the letter, and for all we know Elayne is back from FoM with a 100 AS.

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Everybody's assuming Elayne is not in Caemlyn when the Trollocs bust through the Waygate. We just don't know whether that's true. IIRC, it's evening when Olver opens the letter, and for all we know Elayne is back from FoM with a 100 AS.

 

While strictly speaking that is true, I think you need to consider what is likely.

 

There are all sorts of things that COULD be true, for all we know. Maybe the Last Battle has already been fought, Rand lost, and the Dark One is allowing the trollocs to rampage for a while as a reward before he unravels the Pattern.

 

But that isn't likely. And I think it is pretty obvious that we are intended to believe that the attack is occuring in Elayne's absence.

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Except it's not an example of that at all. Had she committed to executing him, and had to be talked out of it, that would be a good example of your point. She dismissed the thought as soon as it arrived. I fail to see how that is hot-headed, inexperienced, brash or proud.

 

Fine heh heh...Elayne is older, wiser, smarter and more experienced and knowledgeable than Yoda and Gandalf combined. Sure thing...oh, and MUCH more attractive too, of course!

 

And yet you haven't explained why staying in Caemlyn is either common sense or good judgement. Wherever she went, she could be reached very quickly provided people knew where she was. While your evidence "should" be those things, it isn't. It's just your say-so. You ignored the point I brought up. There might be very good reasons to leave the country. In this case, she (at no cost to herself) secures her eastern border and dramatically increases the number of soldiers she can call on in the event of an emergency. Her business there would not take long to conduct, and she could be quickly recalled in the event of an emergency. These points you have not addressed. So, how is it a lack of common sense? How is it poor judgement?

 

I haven't? I have been very clear, in fact. "Elanye left shortly after receiving warning of an imminent attack" strikes me as a very short, direct and concise statement. The fact that you seem to disagree so strongly, is a different animal altogether, though. Should suffice to anyone who, again, relies on good, old fashioned common sense, me thinks.

 

Oh, and my say-so is good enough for me. I've never tried to impose it on you or anyone else, for that matter. You have much to learn about the difference between opinion and imposition, my friend :-)

 

You were the one who started this. I told you how I prefer my name, you persisted in using it incorrectly, and I have called you a child but once in response (compared to the number of times you throw the same accusation at me within this very post). You accuse me of twisting and misconstruing your words, when you do the same to mine. That is hypocritical, by definition. My name is Mr Ares. Not Mr. Ares. It might seem only a small matter, and it is, but I think it is simple politeness to do as I request in this matter. A simple mistake I can accept, yet your persistence in this matter even after I have told you how I prefer it is decidedly ill-mannered. The terms I have used to describe you are accurate (bearing in mind I've called a lot of people on here young, or child. No offence is meant by it, and if people object to me using those terms I am quite happy to refrain from using them on those people, provided they extend a similar courtesy to me - again, this is simple manners).

 

hahaha! Sure, pin this on me all you want. I didn't start this nor am I going to submit myself to such childish behavior, arguing over who started what. Nice try, though!

 

As for your user name, I hadn't even noticed that there was no dot right after "Mr". I don't have the pleasure of knowing you, so you can rest assured that I have nothing for or against you. Personally, it boggles my mind to see how a person would take words on their screen coming from perfect strangers so seriously. But, if I offended you, please accept my apologies, Mr Ares. I hold no ill will towards you, so don't be so paranoid heh heh...

 

Still, you want polite? How about you treating others as you'd like to be treated yourself? You will get the results you seek, I assure you.

 

But of course, the AS in Ebou Dar were not inclined to help them with their search. Furthermore, only Elayne and Nynaeve had seen the building in question, so any others would be limited in that they would only be able to work from descriptions. In fact, there was a dispute between Elayne and Nynaeve as to how many floors the building had - I've just checked and it turns out Elayne was right (it had six, Nynaeve thought it had only five). Therefore Nynaeve alone would have had them looking for a five storey building, thus they might well have missed it. So the text provides a clear reason why it is beneficial to have Elayne there. So how I boosted your argument remains unclear, but how I have benefited my own is very clear.

 

And you continue to use your personal interpretation of the books to make your case. Nothing wrong with that, since that's what I've been doing all along. It's just that it's not my problem that the stupid, useless wenches who happened to be with Elayne and Nynaeve at Ebou Dar wouldn't prove helpful at all. The fact remains that those two were not the only Aes Sedai in the vicinity at the time. I am all for cold hard fact, not speculation.

 

I grow tired of repeating myself, Mr Ares, but this is my personal opinion, regardless on how others feel about Elanye bloody Trakand, as Mat would call her (and for good reason too haha!). I have just expressed it and not tried to impose it on anyone.

 

No, you were the one who brought up you being part of a majority view. That is both a logical fallacy and not clearly supported.

 

OK. So, we're all stupid then and you're a genius heh heh Give yourself a pat in the back and hope it doesn't get as lonely at the top as they claim ;-)

 

Except she did improve the situation and save her realm - in KoD she ended the war. So you're condemning her for what? Failing to do what she did? Also bear in mind that when she left for ED, there was no power vacuum, nor could she have predicted one would arise.

How history will judge her; as the ruler who lost Andor to the Shadow, unless Caemlyn can still be saved, which is something none of us will know until we've all read AMoL. But history is a harsh judge and, at this point, that will be Elayne's legacy. My point has always been how Elayne's rule will be perceived by her subjects and how it'll be judged by history. And, to this point, it is what it is.
As you are in no position to say how her rule will be perceived by her subjects or history, you don't have a leg to stand on. It could be she will be seen as a hero for repelling an attack on her capital, for a long and glorious reign, for unifying with Cairhien, for an era of unprecedented peace and prosperity after TG. She might end up being seen as the greatest queen Andor ever had.

 

Hmm...okay, I'm flattered that you would place such weight on my opinion but, why is my personal opinion, perception and condemnation of the Trakand girl so important to you? Why would you continue to pursue such a lost cause as trying to convince me otherwise?

 

Was Perrin a rebel? Yes. Was he dangerous? Yes. Thus he is a dangerous rebel. Even if we accept that there were more dangerous rebels out there, that doesn't make my description of Perrin inaccurate.

 

I never called your description "inaccurate". Dramatic, perhaps? Yes. An exaggeration? Sure thing. Very personal? Certainly. But never inaccurate. I certainly disagree with your assessment of Perrin, but I respect it. It's perfectly fine, believe me.

 

The same is true of all of us, so that's not much of a boast. I've read over 120 books over this past year, and only one of them was a WoT book. In fact, I've read far more Doctor Who books (and I have more than 400, including spin-offs), so it would be fair to say I was a pretty big DW fan. I've read a number of Star Wars books, though not for a few years. I'm currently reading seven books, including re-reads of A Feast For Crows and The Brothers Karamazov. That might be impressive to some people, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who can eclipse it. I am assisted by a good memory, having been in a number of WoT debates, and various online resources (there is an encyclopaedia, so you can look things up if you so wish - things like character names, and what people have done).

 

That's quite impressive, Mr Ares. Alas, I'm not here to get myself involved in a "p*ss match" with you or anyone, concerning personal lives and activities. To each their own, as they say. I've already admitted that you are far more knowledgeable on WoT than me or remember details better. All else, is IMO, irrelevant to this forum, this thread and this topic.

 

The topic at hand here is Elayne Trakand's arc in the book Towers of Midnight. And that's what I have been debating. I will politely ask you not to derail the topic, for I'm not interested in doing so myself.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Okay, so that was a poor choice of words on my part. I admit it and stand corrected. So, Elayne did not start civil war. She just perpetuated it and played right into the Shadow's plan to let chaos rule. Doesn't change things much, IMO, but I apologize for the inconvenience and grievance my mistake may have caused you.

 

Not really, no.

 

Okay, so that's a no, then...heh heh

 

Don't understand why you keep pursing this, since all I've been doing for all the while is discuss the topic with different users and reply to you because I think it would be rude not to do so. And, again, that's because I was quick to realize that you and I are completely at odds with each other and could never agree on anything but on the fact that we seem to disagree on it all. And, IMO, the gap is so wide that it's all but impossible to reach common ground.

 

I'm not a party to the Shadow's strategic planning sessions. All I know is that we see in the books that Elayne ended a civil war, and brought order where there was chaos, began mustering her armies for TG, and in general doing the things a good ruler does.

 

Again, fact, not speculation, Mr Ares.

 

I'm certainly not privy to the Shadow's plans either, but the fact remains that Caemlyn was under attack and, to this point, we don't yet know if any other major cities across the Randland were facing the same situation (except for the Borderlands, of course. At least Maradon, if you wish to nit-pick).

 

It is what it is and to the best of my knowledge, this is what I read in the epilogue of ToM. Not an attack on Illian, Tear or Caihrien. It was Caemlyn. We must be reading different books, I guess. Because what I see is Elayne leaving her realm ripe for the Shadow's picking.

 

Except my views are backed up by evidence.

 

Not to me they aren't. What makes you think your views more important to others than their own? I certainly respect your views, just like anybody else's, but I certainly will never place them above my own views.

 

True. That doesn't mean that what I am saying is a matter of opinion, it just means I can't be bothered to go and track down verbatim quotes for every last little thing to support my views when you've not asked for them and they shouldn't be necessary. It's a lot of trouble to go to, and I don't bother without good reason. If I have to, I can provide. This is not my personal take, much of the time, an awful lot of what I say is matters of fact. There is a difference between that and opinion, and my opinions tend to be backed up by fact, rather than hollow claims to common sense or a belief that you must have provided evidence, therefore you did, even if there is none to be seen.

 

Can't blame you there, because though I have the books at hand (all of them), I prefer to discuss things from the angle of personal interpretation than the books. That wouldn't be fun for me. "In TEotW, page 600, Rand said this or that" Um...okay...end of debate! haha

 

Alas, unless you provide backing directly from good sources of reference, you should understand that people will take all your claims as a matter of personal opinion. It is inevitable. Perhaps that is where the problem between you and I lies, since you claim to be speaking based on the books and I'm doing it out of personal interpretation.

 

But either way, post your quotes or admit to personal interpretation, 'cause I will never take your word at face value. Not only do I not know who you are but so far, you've given me no reason to do so.

 

Her business within Cairhien could be concluded within a few hours, and if needed she could be recalled within minutes. That would be a more accurate summation of my position. She arrived, was crowned, and told the Cairhienin to gather their forces to leave for the FoM. Granted, my position might not always have been stated as clearly as it could have been, hence the clarification here. What we saw her do would not take long, and she can be recalled at short notice. Do you dispute any of this? Focussing on side issues while missing the genral thrust, as you do here, does not strengthen your point. The issue is not how many hours she spent in Cairhien, it is was it a bad idea to go? Given the advantages to going, the fact she can be recalled if she has to be, the unlikelihood of her being needed because her capital has been attacked that very night, etc., these are all relevant considerations in deciding whether or not it was a bad idea. You just say it wasn't common sense or good judgement, providing no reasoning, say no ruler would do it, providing no support, and dodge the main points against you.

 

The part in bold is from the books, you say? Are you certain it's not your personal interpretation of the actual event? So, what's it gonna be? Are you going to keep speculating, based on personal opinion? Or, are you gonna start using actual quotes from the books to sustain your argument?

 

I refuse to address the rest of your quote above (or any new posts from you addressing me), till you have made up your mind on which shall be the ground rules for this game and stick to them.

 

While not everything I say can be taken for fact, there is a difference between facts and opinions, and I use both. Therefore the facts I use can be taken for facts, and the opinions I use can be taken for my opinions, backed up by relevant facts where possible. On the other hand, you might want to review some of your old posts before you reply: "The ruler does not leave her/his post at any given time, till the crisis has passed. And that's a fact." But of course, you're not claiming that fact is something you know for a fact. That fact is just your opinion. And that's a fact. In my opinion.

 

Oh, I see now, how convenient eh?

 

Shifting back and forth from fact to opinion as it fits you, like a snake slithering on the ground. You aren't even considerate enough to specify the times you are stating your opinion from the times you state fact. A very gentlemanly and sportsmanlike manner to engage someone in a debate, Mr Ares.

 

But hey, at least you did say, "in my opinion", which is a start in the sense of humility and respect for your fellow posters. You seem to be learning already. Oh, and rulers do not leave their post in the face of national crises and I stand by what I said. Whether in the WoT Universe or anywhere else.

 

I take it you have evidence to support that opinion of yours. As I've already pointed out, the Waygate is thought to be secure, so even if Elayne knows of it it is a non-factor, as it has been guarded against. Also, no-one has yet contested by comments on the deficiencies of launching a full-scale invasion via Waygate.

 

Mr Ares, now you have made me LMAO!

 

Do you know how many posts in this very thread include the same opinion about Elayne not knowing about the waygate in Caemlyn? Please, do go and tell this to all those who have also said the very same thing, since I'm in no way different, special, above or below them. Besides, are you implying that Elayne did know there was a waygate?

 

Well, if no one has contested the deficiencies of such a possibility, then why don't you pursue that debate (very interesting topic, IMO) instead of continuing to contradict yourself, only to try and counter every single word I type in this forum?

 

Keep in mind that I have never questioned her moves to gain the throne, decision to secure the dragons or to absorb the Band and other military factions as part of her realm. Heck! Not even her taking over the Sun Throne, her treaties with Mat or Perrin. I just questioned her leaving the realm of Andor when under serious threat, not taking the steps I deem necessary to make certain that said threat was handled to the best of her abilities.

 

This is the extent of my argument against Elayne Trakand. It has been you who has tried using other kinds of situations concerning her arc to continue debating me. I would have no problem continuing that debate (though, IMO, that's pretty much worthless at this point) but be warned: should you wish to debate this further, then stick to the topic at hand or move on. For me, there's a time and a place for everything and, at this point, I'm not interested in pursuing a debate concerning anything else around Elayne Trakand.

 

And that's all I have to say about this. Hope you can finally understand it. Thank you very much.

Edited by Darth Krewl
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I honestly have no idea how anyone can say that the Two Rivers is not part of Andor.

 

It clearly is - that's established in TEotW. In TSR, Faile talks about how parts of Saldea hadn't seen a tax collector in generations, but were still part of Saldea. Heck, Perrin tries to get Faile out by sending word to Morgase - Faile TELLS him (in case he didn't know) that Morgase would consider the Wolf Head Banner an act of rebellion.

 

You can make a good argument that the TR deserves to be a separate country... but that doesn't mean it IS one.

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I honestly have no idea how anyone can say that the Two Rivers is not part of Andor.

 

It clearly is - that's established in TEotW. In TSR, Faile talks about how parts of Saldea hadn't seen a tax collector in generations, but were still part of Saldea. Heck, Perrin tries to get Faile out by sending word to Morgase - Faile TELLS him (in case he didn't know) that Morgase would consider the Wolf Head Banner an act of rebellion.

 

You can make a good argument that the TR deserves to be a separate country... but that doesn't mean it IS one.

 

I Second that Emotion...

 

The TR is clearly indicated as an area of Andor in every WoT map ever produced.

The denizen's have been described as having "west of Andor" accents.

Never.. not once .. has it ever been even inferred in the text that the Two Rivers (in the N.E.) is anything other than a part of Andor.

Have there been actions by the TR forces with Perrin that could be construed by a ruler as "rebellious" (nothing more than flying the two banners, in fact)? Yes.

Other than flying banners and standing up for and defending themselves successfully (and being understandably proud of themselves and their heritage) has ANY of the TR populace declared "we ain't Andor"? NO.

 

How any reader can claim the Two Rivers is not part of Andor is a mystery to me.

 

I don't think Elayne has stupidly or foolishly blundered by leaving Camelyn. Not yet anyway. It remains to be seen in the last book what defensive steps she took, or if she took any. She cannot sit on her throne and wait. Not with just the threat from lying liars who lie (can't ignore the threat either, but she doesn't KNOW for a fact). We know the "Seans" aren't sitting on their hands and Elayne correctly assumes they aren't as well (from her own deeds/thoughts/words in the text). The last battle needs more troops, she had a way to attain them; she takes action to do so. Stupid or Foolish? No. A calculated risk? In my opinion Yes. In time of war, any leader/ruler worth their salt must make risky but calculated decisions. You take what information you have and Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.

 

Elayne, like others on the side of The Light, is doing what needs to be done. At least thats how I read it ... SO FAR.

 

 

How will Elayne be treated by "history"? ... The conjecture I've read on this thread is absolutely too funny, if not absurd. WE as readers will most likely never know. But a real life adage applies. "History is written .. by the Victor".. THAT you can take to the bank.

Edited by Auld Manriva
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I honestly have no idea how anyone can say that the Two Rivers is not part of Andor.

 

It clearly is - that's established in TEotW. In TSR, Faile talks about how parts of Saldea hadn't seen a tax collector in generations, but were still part of Saldea. Heck, Perrin tries to get Faile out by sending word to Morgase - Faile TELLS him (in case he didn't know) that Morgase would consider the Wolf Head Banner an act of rebellion.

 

You can make a good argument that the TR deserves to be a separate country... but that doesn't mean it IS one.

 

I Second that Emotion...

 

The TR is clearly indicated as an area of Andor in every WoT map ever produced.

The denizen's have been described as having "west of Andor" accents.

Never.. not once .. has it ever been even inferred in the text that the Two Rivers (in the N.E.) is anything other than a part of Andor.

Have there been actions by the TR forces with Perrin that could be construed by a ruler as "rebellious" (nothing more than flying the two banners, in fact)? Yes.

Other than flying banners and standing up for and defending themselves successfully (and being understandably proud of themselves and their heritage) has ANY of the TR populace declared "we ain't Andor"? NO.

 

How any reader can claim the Two Rivers is not part of Andor is a mystery to me.

 

I don't think Elayne has stupidly or foolishly blundered by leaving Camelyn. Not yet anyway. It remains to be seen in the last book what defensive steps she took, or if she took any. She cannot sit on her throne and wait. Not with just the threat from lying liars who lie (can't ignore the threat either, but she doesn't KNOW for a fact). We know the "Seans" aren't sitting on their hands and Elayne correctly assumes they aren't as well (from her own deeds/thoughts/words in the text). The last battle needs more troops, she had a way to attain them; she takes action to do so. Stupid or Foolish? No. A calculated risk? In my opinion Yes. In time of war, any leader/ruler worth their salt must make risky but calculated decisions. You take what information you have and Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.

 

Elayne, like others on the side of The Light, is doing what needs to be done. At least thats how I read it ... SO FAR.

 

 

How will Elayne be treated by "history"? ... The conjecture I've read on this thread is absolutely too funny, if not absurd. WE as readers will most likely never know. But a real life adage applies. "History is written .. by the Victor".. THAT you can take to the bank.

 

You should get your facts straight. We have seen time and time again, that the people living in the two rivers don't consider themselves Andoran. I really don't know how you missed that considering how often it has been mentioned in the books.

 

Andor is a feudal land. There is a social contract between a lord and the people he claims to rule. The people provide taxes and men at arms while the lord is responsible for protection and providing justice, among other duties.

 

The queens of Andor decided generations ago that they didn't have the resources to hold the two rivers any longer and abandoned the people there to their own devices. In other words, they broke the social contract. Once that happened the two rivers no longer owes allegiance to the throne.

 

Yes, the queen of Andor considered the two rivers to be part of her realm but the people would disagree. This is a what the whole argument is about, but the two rivers people have a legitimate claim that they are not part of Andor despite what any map says. After all, the Seanchan probably have maps showing all the land belonging to Arthur Hawking and his heirs, that proves nothing.

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^^^^^

Exactly right. Although it will undoubtedly cause Mister Ares to have a coniption, as he does whenever anyone challenges his view of this imaginary world. Prepare yourself for repeated, point-by-point "refutations" of your post.

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Jesus Christ, contrary to some statements on this board, it isn't Elayne or Egwene who need to get laid.

 

Go outside, it's a beautiful day.

 

 

ROFL

 

 

But yeah... jeez you guys its a book. Lets not get too worked up.

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You should get your facts straight. We have seen time and time again, that the people living in the two rivers don't consider themselves Andoran. I really don't know how you missed that considering how often it has been mentioned in the books.

 

Andor is a feudal land. There is a social contract between a lord and the people he claims to rule. The people provide taxes and men at arms while the lord is responsible for protection and providing justice, among other duties.

 

The queens of Andor decided generations ago that they didn't have the resources to hold the two rivers any longer and abandoned the people there to their own devices. In other words, they broke the social contract. Once that happened the two rivers no longer owes allegiance to the throne.

 

Yes, the queen of Andor considered the two rivers to be part of her realm but the people would disagree. This is a what the whole argument is about, but the two rivers people have a legitimate claim that they are not part of Andor despite what any map says. After all, the Seanchan probably have maps showing all the land belonging to Arthur Hawking and his heirs, that proves nothing.

a map showing an area under a current existing administration is always taken as lagitimate, unless there are two conflicting ones. The social contract has not been broken. even though that there has been no tax collectors, etc., the TR's have been stable under the crown. Thus the crown has still been responsible for protection, and the bulk of their duties. In reality the mayoral system that the TR's set up are the lords of the area, they collect taxes set up infrastructure, and thus are responsible for protection as well. But the mayors are under the crown. Besides in any area which has had 0 brigands and such the armsmen there would be very inexperienced and gun shy. really just a basic militia, so even if the queen herself held lands there it wouldnt have had sufficient military forces to successfully attack/defend against the trollocs

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You should get your facts straight. We have seen time and time again, that the people living in the two rivers don't consider themselves Andoran. I really don't know how you missed that considering how often it has been mentioned in the books.

 

Andor is a feudal land. There is a social contract between a lord and the people he claims to rule. The people provide taxes and men at arms while the lord is responsible for protection and providing justice, among other duties.

 

The queens of Andor decided generations ago that they didn't have the resources to hold the two rivers any longer and abandoned the people there to their own devices. In other words, they broke the social contract. Once that happened the two rivers no longer owes allegiance to the throne.

 

Yes, the queen of Andor considered the two rivers to be part of her realm but the people would disagree. This is a what the whole argument is about, but the two rivers people have a legitimate claim that they are not part of Andor despite what any map says. After all, the Seanchan probably have maps showing all the land belonging to Arthur Hawking and his heirs, that proves nothing.

a map showing an area under a current existing administration is always taken as lagitimate, unless there are two conflicting ones. The social contract has not been broken. even though that there has been no tax collectors, etc., the TR's have been stable under the crown. Thus the crown has still been responsible for protection, and the bulk of their duties. In reality the mayoral system that the TR's set up are the lords of the area, they collect taxes set up infrastructure, and thus are responsible for protection as well. But the mayors are under the crown. Besides in any area which has had 0 brigands and such the armsmen there would be very inexperienced and gun shy. really just a basic militia, so even if the queen herself held lands there it wouldnt have had sufficient military forces to successfully attack/defend against the trollocs

 

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. What is that, the cartographic school of political sovereignty?

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You should get your facts straight. We have seen time and time again, that the people living in the two rivers don't consider themselves Andoran. I really don't know how you missed that considering how often it has been mentioned in the books.

 

Andor is a feudal land. There is a social contract between a lord and the people he claims to rule. The people provide taxes and men at arms while the lord is responsible for protection and providing justice, among other duties.

 

The queens of Andor decided generations ago that they didn't have the resources to hold the two rivers any longer and abandoned the people there to their own devices. In other words, they broke the social contract. Once that happened the two rivers no longer owes allegiance to the throne.

 

Yes, the queen of Andor considered the two rivers to be part of her realm but the people would disagree. This is a what the whole argument is about, but the two rivers people have a legitimate claim that they are not part of Andor despite what any map says. After all, the Seanchan probably have maps showing all the land belonging to Arthur Hawking and his heirs, that proves nothing.

a map showing an area under a current existing administration is always taken as lagitimate, unless there are two conflicting ones. The social contract has not been broken. even though that there has been no tax collectors, etc., the TR's have been stable under the crown. Thus the crown has still been responsible for protection, and the bulk of their duties. In reality the mayoral system that the TR's set up are the lords of the area, they collect taxes set up infrastructure, and thus are responsible for protection as well. But the mayors are under the crown. Besides in any area which has had 0 brigands and such the armsmen there would be very inexperienced and gun shy. really just a basic militia, so even if the queen herself held lands there it wouldnt have had sufficient military forces to successfully attack/defend against the trollocs

 

I don't where you supposed facts are coming from. The mayors in the TR are elected by the people living there and have no association with the crown. In addition, the powers and responsibilities of the mayor are nothing close to a lords. Taxes, infrastructure, protection? I don't recall seeing any of that in the Eye of the World or the Shadow Rising when describing what the mayor does. The two rivers doesn't have a militia, hell they don't even have a constable or other law enforcement official. That is the whole point. There is no Andoran government presence in the TR and hasn't been for more then a hundred years.

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...

 

To Mr. Ares and anyone else who believes that Elayne took the correct course of action by increasing security and then leaving Andor when she had intel that it was about to be attacked...

 

The only real gripe I have with Elayne is that she didn't do her due diligence in analyzing the intelligence before "moving on" (i.e. going to Cairhien). When she learned Andor may be attacked, her situation was basically such that she knew an attack may be coming, but she knew absolutely nothing else. As I mentioned before, if I were in that situation, I would "call council" to brainstorm how Andor could possibly be attacked, and leverage my information network (Egwene, Mat, etc.) to get their ideas. I really do not think doing this is unreasonable, and granted that it took me like 3 minutes to think of it, I would expect that a monarch could think of it as well.

 

If Elayne had done this and found nothing out, I would not have blamed her for going to Cairhien. But that's not what she did. She didn't ponder the attack at all and didn't include her trusted advisors. She just increased security and then left for Cairhien. I really think we should be able to expect better from a monarch.

 

Just imagine if a world leader today acted as Elayne did. If the president of the US knew an attack was coming and all he did was say "increase security" and then left on a diplomatic mission, I think people would be upset. It's not unreasonable to expect our leaders to at least try to get enough information to make informed decisions.

 

If I'm wrong about what Elayne did, please let me know. But as far as I know, she just increased the guards on the border and then left for Cairhien.

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You should get your facts straight. We have seen time and time again, that the people living in the two rivers don't consider themselves Andoran. I really don't know how you missed that considering how often it has been mentioned in the books.

 

Andor is a feudal land. There is a social contract between a lord and the people he claims to rule. The people provide taxes and men at arms while the lord is responsible for protection and providing justice, among other duties.

 

The queens of Andor decided generations ago that they didn't have the resources to hold the two rivers any longer and abandoned the people there to their own devices. In other words, they broke the social contract. Once that happened the two rivers no longer owes allegiance to the throne.

 

Yes, the queen of Andor considered the two rivers to be part of her realm but the people would disagree. This is a what the whole argument is about, but the two rivers people have a legitimate claim that they are not part of Andor despite what any map says. After all, the Seanchan probably have maps showing all the land belonging to Arthur Hawking and his heirs, that proves nothing.

a map showing an area under a current existing administration is always taken as lagitimate, unless there are two conflicting ones. The social contract has not been broken. even though that there has been no tax collectors, etc., the TR's have been stable under the crown. Thus the crown has still been responsible for protection, and the bulk of their duties. In reality the mayoral system that the TR's set up are the lords of the area, they collect taxes set up infrastructure, and thus are responsible for protection as well. But the mayors are under the crown. Besides in any area which has had 0 brigands and such the armsmen there would be very inexperienced and gun shy. really just a basic militia, so even if the queen herself held lands there it wouldnt have had sufficient military forces to successfully attack/defend against the trollocs

 

I don't where you supposed facts are coming from. The mayors in the TR are elected by the people living there and have no association with the crown. In addition, the powers and responsibilities of the mayor are nothing close to a lords. Taxes, infrastructure, protection? I don't recall seeing any of that in the Eye of the World or the Shadow Rising when describing what the mayor does. The two rivers doesn't have a militia, hell they don't even have a constable or other law enforcement official. That is the whole point. There is no Andoran government presence in the TR and hasn't been for more then a hundred years.

actually I see the elected mayor as an extention of Baerlon governor system. I personnally think that RJ used the word mayor to allow us to assume they would have many of the same responsibilities as they do today.

as for infrastructure I meant mostly roads, the village green, and other public areas, if he doesnt have responsibility for maintaining them then who does? And he would also be the one who collects taxes and decides how to spend them, or do you think road maintenance is completely free? (although I do concede that they would be largely volenteer work the village would likely pay for tool repairs if they are damaged durign the construction)

 

also I was saying that although there is no militia or law enforcement, that is because they are not needed. and if something isnt needed why pay for it?

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You should get your facts straight. We have seen time and time again, that the people living in the two rivers don't consider themselves Andoran. I really don't know how you missed that considering how often it has been mentioned in the books.

 

Andor is a feudal land. There is a social contract between a lord and the people he claims to rule. The people provide taxes and men at arms while the lord is responsible for protection and providing justice, among other duties.

 

The queens of Andor decided generations ago that they didn't have the resources to hold the two rivers any longer and abandoned the people there to their own devices. In other words, they broke the social contract. Once that happened the two rivers no longer owes allegiance to the throne.

 

Yes, the queen of Andor considered the two rivers to be part of her realm but the people would disagree. This is a what the whole argument is about, but the two rivers people have a legitimate claim that they are not part of Andor despite what any map says. After all, the Seanchan probably have maps showing all the land belonging to Arthur Hawking and his heirs, that proves nothing.

a map showing an area under a current existing administration is always taken as lagitimate, unless there are two conflicting ones. The social contract has not been broken. even though that there has been no tax collectors, etc., the TR's have been stable under the crown. Thus the crown has still been responsible for protection, and the bulk of their duties. In reality the mayoral system that the TR's set up are the lords of the area, they collect taxes set up infrastructure, and thus are responsible for protection as well. But the mayors are under the crown. Besides in any area which has had 0 brigands and such the armsmen there would be very inexperienced and gun shy. really just a basic militia, so even if the queen herself held lands there it wouldnt have had sufficient military forces to successfully attack/defend against the trollocs

 

I don't where you supposed facts are coming from. The mayors in the TR are elected by the people living there and have no association with the crown. In addition, the powers and responsibilities of the mayor are nothing close to a lords. Taxes, infrastructure, protection? I don't recall seeing any of that in the Eye of the World or the Shadow Rising when describing what the mayor does. The two rivers doesn't have a militia, hell they don't even have a constable or other law enforcement official. That is the whole point. There is no Andoran government presence in the TR and hasn't been for more then a hundred years.

actually I see the elected mayor as an extention of Baerlon governor system. I personnally think that RJ used the word mayor to allow us to assume they would have many of the same responsibilities as they do today.

as for infrastructure I meant mostly roads, the village green, and other public areas, if he doesnt have responsibility for maintaining them then who does? And he would also be the one who collects taxes and decides how to spend them, or do you think road maintenance is completely free? (although I do concede that they would be largely volenteer work the village would likely pay for tool repairs if they are damaged durign the construction)

 

also I was saying that although there is no militia or law enforcement, that is because they are not needed. and if something isnt needed why pay for it?

 

I think whether the TR is part of Andor is debatable either way.

 

On one hand, Andor has not really governed the TR in decades. In addition, Andor didn't aid the TR at all when it was besieged by Trollocs. This has caused the TR to culturally drift apart from Andor, and I can see why many TR folks don't consider themselves Andoran.

 

On the other hand, the TR was most definitely part of Andor in the past, and since they haven't formally claimed independence, they are technically still part of Andor. So I can see where the royal family would feel that TR is indeed part of Andor.

 

Basically, I don't think there is a right answer here. The situation with the TR and Andor is actually pretty realistic in my estimation, and it kind of parallels the American colonies. As we all know, the American colonies were under British rule, but England became occupied with other concerns (seven years war etc.) and abandoned the colonies much like Andor abandoned the TR.

 

Then, king George decided he wanted to get a firmer grasp on the colonies and levy more taxes. The colonists did not like this as I'm sure you know, and it eventually led to the revolutionary war. The TR/Andor situation could have ended similarly if Elayne didn't handle Perrin as she did.

 

You can argue that she was a little harsh with Perrin, but I understand why she felt threatened, and in the end it worked out for the best.

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actually I see the elected mayor as an extention of Baerlon governor system. I personnally think that RJ used the word mayor to allow us to assume they would have many of the same responsibilities as they do today.

as for infrastructure I meant mostly roads, the village green, and other public areas, if he doesnt have responsibility for maintaining them then who does? And he would also be the one who collects taxes and decides how to spend them, or do you think road maintenance is completely free? (although I do concede that they would be largely volenteer work the village would likely pay for tool repairs if they are damaged durign the construction)

 

also I was saying that although there is no militia or law enforcement, that is because they are not needed. and if something isnt needed why pay for it?

 

The problem with this argument is that it went on too long. Much like Baerlon has gone on too long for the crown to claim it legitimately. Min tells Elayne that Morgase's 'writ runs pretty thin that far west" at the end of TFoH or beginning of LoC. Min's not from the TR, she is referring to Baerlon. And Elayne flares in her mind about to argue with Min then realizes that that is not the discussion she wants to have with Min. That having been said....the discussions about this on this board remind me of someone Devon Ride arguing with someone from Four Kings. Andor supporters are never gong to adimt that they dropped the ball on the ruler's responsibility to their vassal, and TR supporters are going to say, "What have you done for me lately?" Personally, I think that the split happens too far back to assess blame to either Elayne or Perrin over this issue. The problem occurred over a hundred years before either character is born, why blame either one for problems inherited from decades before? They reached the best solution available to both, and both seemed happy with that resolution. Why are we debating it, when neither of the affected character's are doing so??? Oh, that's right, I remember. We all have a lot more time available to debate it than the characters have. Yes, Perrin raised Manetheren's Banner. Whether to forward Rand's aims or not he did it. And Yes, Elayne was irresponsible in her investigation of the circumstances. But Perrin was warned by Faile that "[Monarchs] tend to believe maps." Then he went ahead and left Manetheren's banner up and even decided to utilize it while looking for the Prophet to get people to leave him alone (i.e. not attack his people). Elayne is just a s guilty of assuming more than she could claim since she was told (in TEoTW) Morgase doubts if any in the TR "even remembers that they are part of Andor." This is confirmed to Elayne by Rand's reaction, had she bothered to notice, because Morgase notices Rand's reaction to her statement.

 

Both are equally guilty of assuming more than they are entitled to (it does not matter that Perrin does not want it, he had the option of running back to Rand as soon as the trollocs were dead and Ordieth (Fain) was gone), and both are trying to do the best for their people as they see it. Both Perrin and Elayne got off light considering how easily (with different people in each position) it could have come to bloodshed. Instead Perrin got the TR, and Elayne got free trade in an area where there had not been ANY major trade for over 100 years (we see how much the TR has advanced, but Elayne has no idea how much she is actually giving up in taxes when they make the agreement, especially when you think about the miner's that asked Faile's permission to look for ore deposits in MoM (and Perrin's government of the area gets 10% of everything those mines produce). As Mat says, the best bargain is one where both parties leave the negotiation thinking that they got the better of the other. That seems to be the case for me in this situation, since we do not see from either's PoV that they feel cheated in this case.

 

All in all what is the argument about?????

 

The TR (and all of the reader's who chose their side) are getting exactly what they (and the Lord they have sworn to follow) want.

Elayne ( and all those who would bow to her royal Snitty-ness) are getting exactly what she (and if the Queen is happy, so should the subjects be) wanted and asked for.

 

I purpose that any not content with Perrin and Elayne's agreement, are the one's that will not be satisfied unless one or the other subjugated the other entirely, no compromise. Victory or Death type thing. Only problem is they are only looking at death of people they only know through the pages of the book, and are not able to immerse themselves fully into a character's background and history when reading that person's PoV. And at the same time, viewing them too objectively and and not taking time to see the world through their eyes is just as big of a mistake. The entire reason that we have each character's PoV is to provide the understanding that walking a few miles in their shoes gives one. I agre that when one of you favorite characters gets slighted (and feels slighted themselves) you should be able to identify with them, but too many people think that they must defend the character, even when the character themselves are satisfied (sorta like the Prophet did for Rand, or Aram did for Perrin, or any of the other fanatically rabid characters we see in WoT. I can't understand such zealotry, and I will not try, suffice it to say that I find it distasteful and will not aid it by giving aid to one side or the other. Neither was right entirely in their actions/assumptions, both were equally wrong. The Final Disposition of the TR has been satisfied to all involved parties! Can we move on to a different segment of Elayne's arc, please?

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If Elayne had done this and found nothing out, I would not have blamed her for going to Cairhien. But that's not what she did. She didn't ponder the attack at all and didn't include her trusted advisors.
She did include her trusted advisors.
She just increased security and then left for Cairhien.
Well, it was more than a month between her interrogation of Chesmal and her departure for Cairhien (and, a few hours later, for Merrilor). It was nearly two weeks between that brief conversation about beefed up border security and her taking the Sun Throne. Much like we have no idea what Rand was doing for the middle 25 days of that month, we aren't privy to all the information about what Elayne may or may not have planned. But it's clear there were discussions on the matter with her highest advisor (Dyelin) and her military command.
I really think we should be able to expect better from a monarch.
What, specifically?
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If Elayne had done this and found nothing out, I would not have blamed her for going to Cairhien. But that's not what she did. She didn't ponder the attack at all and didn't include her trusted advisors.
She did include her trusted advisors.
She just increased security and then left for Cairhien.
Well, it was more than a month between her interrogation of Chesmal and her departure for Cairhien (and, a few hours later, for Merrilor). It was nearly two weeks between that brief conversation about beefed up border security and her taking the Sun Throne. Much like we have no idea what Rand was doing for the middle 25 days of that month, we aren't privy to all the information about what Elayne may or may not have planned. But it's clear there were discussions on the matter with her highest advisor (Dyelin) and her military command.
I really think we should be able to expect better from a monarch.
What, specifically?

 

When did she include her advisors? I'm not asking to be smart, I just honestly may have missed it. I listen to the books on audio, so sometimes I miss things here or there.

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When did she include her advisors? I'm not asking to be smart, I just honestly may have missed it. I listen to the books on audio, so sometimes I miss things here or there.
Dyelin said nothing to that. She didn't believe that Chesmal had been talking of a specific invasion of Andor; she thought that the Black sister had been speaking of the Trolloc invasion of the Borderlands. Birgitte took the news more seriously, beefing up soldiers on the Andoran borders.
This implies that Dyelin and Birgitte at the least had discussed the matter before (this is 14 days at least after the incident in the dungeon). They've been her top two advisors on political and military matters, respectively, for the last three or four books. Whether Mat was involved, who knows? There's no evidence suggesting he was, though there's some reason to argue he should have been. Nor do we know all that was discussed between Elayne and Egwene in their meetings in TAR, although Elayne clearly doesn't desire to be Egwene's puppet and may very well not have brought up the subject of the dead Black Ajah.
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When did she include her advisors? I'm not asking to be smart, I just honestly may have missed it. I listen to the books on audio, so sometimes I miss things here or there.
Dyelin said nothing to that. She didn't believe that Chesmal had been talking of a specific invasion of Andor; she thought that the Black sister had been speaking of the Trolloc invasion of the Borderlands. Birgitte took the news more seriously, beefing up soldiers on the Andoran borders.
This implies that Dyelin and Birgitte at the least had discussed the matter before (this is 14 days at least after the incident in the dungeon). They've been her top two advisors on political and military matters, respectively, for the last three or four books. Whether Mat was involved, who knows? There's no evidence suggesting he was, though there's some reason to argue he should have been. Nor do we know all that was discussed between Elayne and Egwene in their meetings in TAR, although Elayne clearly doesn't desire to be Egwene's puppet and may very well not have brought up the subject of the dead Black Ajah.

 

Ah okay, well then in that case I stand corrected.

 

I still feel like Elayne could have done a bit more to plan, but then again if she asked Mat he probably would have told her about the waygate spoiling the story :). So okay, I'll get off Elayne's back, thanks for pointing that out to me.

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Everybody's assuming Elayne is not in Caemlyn when the Trollocs bust through the Waygate. We just don't know whether that's true. IIRC, it's evening when Olver opens the letter, and for all we know Elayne is back from FoM with a 100 AS.

 

While strictly speaking that is true, I think you need to consider what is likely.

 

There are all sorts of things that COULD be true, for all we know. Maybe the Last Battle has already been fought, Rand lost, and the Dark One is allowing the trollocs to rampage for a while as a reward before he unravels the Pattern.

 

But that isn't likely. And I think it is pretty obvious that we are intended to believe that the attack is occuring in Elayne's absence.

 

It is very likely that Elayne has left a 'Call me if there's trouble' mechanism in place. So that in case of an attack on Caemlyn, or the assassination of Dyelin, or the sudden appearance of UFOs, she can be back immediately.

 

It is not obvious that the attack is occuring in Elayne's absence. All we see is Talmanes rousing the Band, and Olver getting his knife. And Caemlyn burning. What is obvious is the surprise of the attack. Elayne must be expecting an attack from the north, not from the middle of her capital.

 

And if we consider only that which is likely, there would be no more fun in speculation. I remember the time when someone thought Moirane was Berelain. :biggrin: Now that is unlikely.

 

Exaggeration, she is a fond friend of yours, yes? :biggrin:

 

P.S Pls dont go all Darth on me.

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