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Luckers

Discuss the Epiclogue

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I don´t think Shadowspawn can use the Portal Stones to switch worlds. Only change places inside one World. If they can switch Worlds, then i don´t think that they can be drawn from more than one World. If they could get more i believe the Light would either have no chance at all or would do the same.

 

Why would you think that there is this new limitation on Portal Stone use for Shadowspawn? There is no indication at all that there would be any limitation in that manner - heck, I had assumed that shadowspawn could not use portal stones at all since they were similar to gateways, but once that was trashed, i can't see why there would be such a limitation.

 

Sourcing from alternate realities *would* explain much about why there are SOO many shadowspawn and also make the DO have a decent shot of seeming a menace again. There have been numerous reviews of # of light channelers vs dark channelers which showed that the Dark had no chance, but, if the DO can draw people from alternate realities, then the war gets a WHOLE lot more interesting.

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5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

 

I found this very interesting, I don't think she can be redeemed, not fully. I do, however think that if she is reaching out to Rand, she may be angry enough with the DO/desperate to escape enough that she would help Rand.

 

I have no evidence to support this, and its probably just a wild guess, but what if she gives Rand the last hint he needs to seal up the bore for permanents? she was the one who made the bore in the first place, after all. maybe she knows something about it that LTT never learned. It is very likely still a trap, but she made the bore surely she will have some small role in closing it, intentional or otherwise?

 

I think Rand will rescue her, but what I am not sure of is if he can somehow do it by gaining the mindtrap she has or if he truly frees her. I also think Rand will use her, or she will give him information (willingly offered or forced out), and would not be surprised that her knowledge is the key to him defeating the DO - I am not sure if Rand intends to kill the DO or to just seal the bore in a way if can never be opened again.

 

Furthermore, I think she will be the 3rd person using Callandor - again not sure if this will be willingly on her part or still mindtrapped controlled by Rand.

That optimistic , so far we have seen nothing that will show Lanfear want redemption

 

I am not saying Lanfear will necessarily want to turn 100%, I further suggested she may not have a choice, if Rand can keep her mindtrapped and also control it.

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For discussion of the Epilogue specifically. So, in line...

 

New theory: The Caemyln way gate in in the wine pantry. RJ once said the the DO could not have tras-migrated Asmo's soul even if he'd wanted to because of how and WHERE he was killed. We don't know a any specific "wheres" that would prevent this, but the ways are a good possibility

 

4. Creepy Red Aiel Dudes.

 

The first thing that came to mind when I read this was Melana from Mortal Kombat lol. But I am thinking these are the male Aiel channelers who traveled to the blight. Whether that were subject tot he 13x13 treatment or if Aginor had his way with then I cannot say. Or perhaps it was some of both.

 

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

 

There is no way that Lanfear has been a damsel in distress the whole time, just not buying it. I think this is one final ploy by the Shadow to convert Rand to the dark side.

 

 

About Asmodean and transmigration, remember Rand severed Asmodean's ties to the DO (those black wires that surrounded his body during the fight in Rhuidean.) Not only did he lose the DO's protection from the Taint, but also presumably the DO's Life Alert too.

 

Those red veiled men made me think instantly of the ships with red sail assaulting Seanchan.

 

And lastly, as I read the part about Rand's dream, I thought instantly to what SH mentioned offhandedly to Graendal right before her punishment began. As she began to suggest she might strike directly at Rand again--because he thinks she is dead, SH interrupts her saying "No," "This opportunity has been given to another..."

 

I don't know if Lanfear is actually trying to escape the DO. It seems pretty futile. The only way out of that fight club has been death--by balefire. The Forsaken most of all--because of their greater ties to the DO, and their experience with him in the AOL and after awakening should know they can't just switch sides if their mindtrap isn't a preferable color.

 

More likely this is some plot to exploit Rand/LT's Achilles heel, women. Maybe they expect Rand/LT to make himself vulnerable to Lanfear as he tries to save her black soul. It would be hilarious if this backfires, moments before Lanfear launches her balefire at him Rand mentions their first date in the AOL, and the pretty ter'iphone she accidentally dropped in a pond. She crumbles instantly into her "I LOVE YOU SO MUCH WHY DON"T YOU LOVE ME I HATE THAT BLEACHED-HEADED BITCH" act and is unable to spring her trap.

Edited by kidicaris

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Rand LTT would commit suicide before keeping a woman mind-trapped.

 

If taking over / getting possession of the mindtrap was a way to free that person / get them away from from the DO, I suspect he would.

 

How long he keeps that person mindtrapped might be debatable...

Edited by John Doe Jr

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Rand LTT would commit suicide before keeping a woman mind-trapped.

 

And now Moridin has potentially three of them. :mad:

 

I don't think this is a matter of Lanfear being good. This is a matter of Lanfear being a woman and trapped by Moridin. *sigh*

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Rand LTT would commit suicide before keeping a woman mind-trapped.

 

And now Moridin has potentially three of them. :mad:

 

I don't think this is a matter of Lanfear being good. This is a matter of Lanfear being a woman and trapped by Moridin. *sigh*

 

But Lanfear is no damsel in distress, her entire personality is that of a brilliant, ambitious, alpha--who incidentally was not only physically impossibly hot, but also the strongest a woman could be in the Power--and also started this whole thing in the first place when she opened the bore.

Would her personality be more likely to seek redemption, or more directly just seek enough favor to get her out of her current trouble--the mindtrap.

It's not like she went over to the Shadow because all the hot O.C. moms were there, she probably has some serious head problems and fit right on in. I just think it's far more likely that Lanfear is trying to gain favor and be released from Morridin by trapping Rand, than seek a great redemption.

 

However--would redemption be awesome, yes. Amazingly. Not only would LT get to save SOMEONE, but Lanfear would be an incredible ally to the Light. Hello, she was a researcher of the One Power in the AOL. Her knowledge and theories about the bore would be a huge gift to Rand/LT. Plus, she might know a lot about the Shadow, its current plans, its structure, its allies etc. Then factor in her own personal abilities and strengths in the Power as a weapon at Shayol Ghul...

I can't exactly imagine how it could be written in any believable way for her to coexist with Rand's 3 wives though, and there would be no point at all for a redemption if she tries to kill Rand's babies with poisoned milk and impossibly sweet nannies.

Edited by kidicaris

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More likely this is some plot to exploit Rand/LT's Achilles heel, women. Maybe they expect Rand/LT to make himself vulnerable to Lanfear as he tries to save her black soul. It would be hilarious if this backfires, moments before Lanfear launches her balefire at him Rand mentions their first date in the AOL, and the pretty ter'iphone she accidentally dropped in a pond. She crumbles instantly into her "I LOVE YOU SO MUCH WHY DON"T YOU LOVE ME I HATE THAT BLEACHED-HEADED BITCH" act and is unable to spring her trap.

 

ter´iphone

 

brilliant

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Rand LTT would commit suicide before keeping a woman mind-trapped.

 

I don't think this is a matter of Lanfear being good. This is a matter of Lanfear being a woman and trapped by Moridin. *sigh*

 

 

All I know is that this had better be building to something good considering that Cyndane has done all of nothing since she was transmigrated.

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Rand LTT would commit suicide before keeping a woman mind-trapped.

 

And now Moridin has potentially three of them. :mad:

 

I don't think this is a matter of Lanfear being good. This is a matter of Lanfear being a woman and trapped by Moridin. *sigh*

 

But Lanfear is no damsel in distress, her entire personality is that of a brilliant, ambitious, alpha--who incidentally was not only physically impossibly hot, but also the strongest a woman could be in the Power--and also started this whole thing in the first place when she opened the bore.

Would her personality be more likely to seek redemption, or more directly just seek enough favor to get her out of her current trouble--the mindtrap.

It's not like she went over to the Shadow because all the hot O.C. moms were there, she probably has some serious head problems and fit right on in. I just think it's far more likely that Lanfear is trying to gain favor and be released from Morridin by trapping Rand, than seek a great redemption.

 

However--would redemption be awesome, yes. Amazingly. Not only would LT get to save SOMEONE, but Lanfear would be an incredible ally to the Light. Hello, she was a researcher of the One Power in the AOL. Her knowledge and theories about the bore would be a huge gift to Rand/LT. Plus, she might know a lot about the Shadow, its current plans, its structure, its allies etc. Then factor in her own personal abilities and strengths in the Power as a weapon at Shayol Ghul...

I can't exactly imagine how it could be written in any believable way for her to coexist with Rand's 3 wives though, and there would be no point at all for a redemption if she tries to kill Rand's babies with poisoned milk and impossibly sweet nannies.

 

I sorry what I said was from Rand's POV not Lanfear's. I'm 100% Admiral Ackbar certain that this "It's a Trap!" either by Lanfear's or Moridin's manipulations I think is too early to tell. I know they are going to take advantage of Rand's "I must protect Women!" Achilies Heel. Though I hope that Rand will not fall for it.

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4). Those men are very interesting. I think there are three possible explanations:

a). They're Sharaman. Being so near to the Aiel and having contact with them over the years could explain for similar clothing patterns and weapons(the red veil and the short spears) although that could be a red herring.

b). They're Aiel channelers, although their number would be limited to the channelers sent in the past couple centuries. Also, why would they need to file their teeth and why would Aiel channelers still use their spears and knives to kill instead of the Power? There is also the matter of them having dark eyes, a non-Aiel characteristic.

c). They're some sort of new construct or shadowspawn. I find this to be the least likely.

 

My initial impression was they where either the male Aiel channelers or their decendants.

 

If male Aiel channelers, turned by the circle. If decendants, why not an alternate to the Waste Aiel that serves the Dark One. Take a couple of male Aiel, turn them, breed them with the city folk in the Blight, over time they develop there own society and rules.

 

Even though they used spears and knives to kill, does not mean they can't channel. How many times did we see Rand fight with his sword.

 

Dark eyes are not impossible with the Aiel. In an earlier book, one of the Maidens was described as having dark eyes. Then if you take into account the possibility of the crossbreeding I mentioned earlier, you could have dark eyes without the apparent conflict.

 

As to the unmasking before killing, I think it is because they are not ashamed of killing. I know that, according to several points of view for the Aiel, that do not disdain killing, there is a tradition based on shame. During Rand's journey through the Rhuidan ter'angreal, we saw that the Aiel initially wore the viel as protection against dust. Then, when the Aiel went to rescue the captured Aiel, they covered their face in shame for abandoning the Way of the Leaf. Over time, the current Aiel have forgotten why they cover their face and just follow a tradition. Now the red-vieled Aiel have no shame in killing and thus feel no need to cover their faces.

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Rand LTT would commit suicide before keeping a woman mind-trapped.

 

And now Moridin has potentially three of them. :mad:

 

I don't think this is a matter of Lanfear being good. This is a matter of Lanfear being a woman and trapped by Moridin. *sigh*

 

But Lanfear is no damsel in distress, her entire personality is that of a brilliant, ambitious, alpha--who incidentally was not only physically impossibly hot, but also the strongest a woman could be in the Power--and also started this whole thing in the first place when she opened the bore.

Would her personality be more likely to seek redemption, or more directly just seek enough favor to get her out of her current trouble--the mindtrap.

It's not like she went over to the Shadow because all the hot O.C. moms were there, she probably has some serious head problems and fit right on in. I just think it's far more likely that Lanfear is trying to gain favor and be released from Morridin by trapping Rand, than seek a great redemption.

 

However--would redemption be awesome, yes. Amazingly. Not only would LT get to save SOMEONE, but Lanfear would be an incredible ally to the Light. Hello, she was a researcher of the One Power in the AOL. Her knowledge and theories about the bore would be a huge gift to Rand/LT. Plus, she might know a lot about the Shadow, its current plans, its structure, its allies etc. Then factor in her own personal abilities and strengths in the Power as a weapon at Shayol Ghul...

I can't exactly imagine how it could be written in any believable way for her to coexist with Rand's 3 wives though, and there would be no point at all for a redemption if she tries to kill Rand's babies with poisoned milk and impossibly sweet nannies.

 

I think Lanfear is trying to use Rand to get free of the mindtrap / situation she is in. I suspect she believes that she can find a way to be greater than the DO and control everything, and Rand is her ticket to getting that. I do not think Lanfear is / will be working with anyone else to try to get Rand, she is doing this 100% for her own selfish reasons.

 

But I believe Rand will outsmart her and use her / the knowledge she has to defeat the DO (either kill him or seal him in the bore that cannot be broken).

 

Once Lanfear realize has used her, with no return, I expect an epic fight between Lanfear and Rand or Lanfear and Elayne / Avi / Min when Rand cannot do it (I wanna set the mega cat fight, personally).

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4). Those men are very interesting. I think there are three possible explanations:

a). They're Sharaman. Being so near to the Aiel and having contact with them over the years could explain for similar clothing patterns and weapons(the red veil and the short spears) although that could be a red herring.

b). They're Aiel channelers, although their number would be limited to the channelers sent in the past couple centuries. Also, why would they need to file their teeth and why would Aiel channelers still use their spears and knives to kill instead of the Power? There is also the matter of them having dark eyes, a non-Aiel characteristic.

c). They're some sort of new construct or shadowspawn. I find this to be the least likely.

 

My initial impression was they where either the male Aiel channelers or their decendants.

 

If male Aiel channelers, turned by the circle. If decendants, why not an alternate to the Waste Aiel that serves the Dark One. Take a couple of male Aiel, turn them, breed them with the city folk in the Blight, over time they develop there own society and rules.

 

Even though they used spears and knives to kill, does not mean they can't channel. How many times did we see Rand fight with his sword.

 

Dark eyes are not impossible with the Aiel. In an earlier book, one of the Maidens was described as having dark eyes. Then if you take into account the possibility of the crossbreeding I mentioned earlier, you could have dark eyes without the apparent conflict.

 

As to the unmasking before killing, I think it is because they are not ashamed of killing. I know that, according to several points of view for the Aiel, that do not disdain killing, there is a tradition based on shame. During Rand's journey through the Rhuidan ter'angreal, we saw that the Aiel initially wore the viel as protection against dust. Then, when the Aiel went to rescue the captured Aiel, they covered their face in shame for abandoning the Way of the Leaf. Over time, the current Aiel have forgotten why they cover their face and just follow a tradition. Now the red-vieled Aiel have no shame in killing and thus feel no need to cover their faces.

 

Interesting point on the veils. Kudos.

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For 4:

 

My first impression was that they are Ayyad males from Shara. I also think that Demandred has solidified his rule in Shara, and having the Ayyad destroy Kandor is his way of showing the GL that he is ready to 'move his armies'.

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Perrin is the Wolf Lord of the prophecy that is in the epilogue... and also the Fallen Blacksmith.After all the books where he agonized over his choices(wolf/man/Faille) he's gonna freakin die?

 

Not necessarily, it has been pointed out on several occasions the the K-cycle itself represents only what might happen or what can happen, it basically spells out what needs to happen in order for The Light to have a chance of winning TG. These prophecies are not certain to come to pass, Rand must still fulfill them. I would imagine that the dark prophecies work the same way, they are the things that need to happen in order for The Shadow to win TG but are not things that necessarily will happen. Even if Perrin does die it probably will not be until toward the end of AMOL and probably in a very heroic, self sacrificing way. I suppose it might have to do with the second time when he must be there to save Rand, though I suspect that will have something to do with Merrilor Pain considering that thus far Perrin is the only one who has gotten onboard with Rand's plan to break the seals.

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Regarding Lanfear/Cyndane, the first question is what actually happened. As I see it, there are two possibilities: (1) Lanfear and Rand were drawn to each other's dreams via their mutual hatred, or (2) via Rand's soul-merge with Moridin, Rand accessed Lanfear via her Mindtrap.

 

In support of (1), think back to what happened between Egwene and Gawyn in LoC, followed by this explanation in Chpt 15:

 

Egwene chose her words carefully. And went on with her dressing, casually, in the same white algode blouse and bulky wool skirt the Wise Ones wore. "Is it possible to be pulled into someone's dream against your will?"

 

"Of course not," Amys said, "not unless your touch is all thumbs."

 

But right on top of her, Bair said, "Not unless there is strong emotion involved. If you try to watch the dream of someone who loves or hates you, you can be pulled in. Or if you love or hate them. That last is why we do not dare try to watch Sevanna's dreams, or 'even to speak with the Shaido Wise Ones in their dreams."

 

... ...

 

Egwene stifled curiosity, and amusement. She made her voice ever so offhanded. "What if you don't try to look in?" Melaine gave her a grateful look, and she felt a twinge of guilt. Not enough that she would not ask for the whole story later, though. Anything that made Melaine blush so had to be hilarious.

 

"I heard of such a thing," Bair said, "when I was young and just beginning to learn. Mora, the Wise One of Colrada Hold, trained me, and she said that if the emotion was very strong, love or hate so great it left room for nothing else, you could be drawn in merely by letting yourself be aware of the other's dream."

 

In support of (2), if Rand could access the Moridin's Mindtraps via their connection, it follows that this could lead to dream invasion by Rand to Lanfear. However, I view this less likely than (1) because (1) already has an established precedent.

 

In either case, the question then becomes whether this occurred by mere happenstance, or whether Moridin manipulated events. I personally think this was a totally random and unpredictable event, probably due to their mutual hatred given the precedent introduced by Egwene/Gawyn in Book 6.

 

Despite Lanfear's hatred of Rand, I have to believe she would do anything at this point to get out of the mindtrap. She's already expressed a desire to betray the Dark One with Rand using the CK in earlier books, and that was when she had a high position among the Shadow. Now that she's a virtual slave, she'd only have more incentive to do so. As mentioned before, she could very well have critical knowledge regarding the Bore --- knowledge that LTT never had, unless Beidomon survived and was questioned after the Bore was made.

 

In conclusion, I think this was for real and was not a trap. Lanfear was never particularly loyal to the Dark One, and now has every reason to ditch him altogether. If Rand can break her free of the Mindtrap he may very well have an ally that can provide him with mission-critical information for sealing the Bore. Of course, since at the end of ToM he plans on going to Shayol Ghul the very next day, could this possibly be accomplished in time?... I don't know.

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Why would Perrin be called the Fallen Blacksmith?

 

That logic doesn't really ring true to me since he is more of a blacksmith than ever, what with the forging of Power-wrought weapons, and he's finally conquered his inner demons. He's anything but "Fallen".

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Depends on how you look at it. He keeps saying that he is just a simple blacksmith for the whole series, but now he embraces leadership. Blacksmith is not his profesion anymore since he is a lord. His hammer seems more like a one time taveren deal.

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Awww man. I thought I was really clever when I came up with the term Epiclogue when describing it to a friend yesterday, but I guess I wasn't alone :(

 

But yes, was quite epic.

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For 4:

 

My first impression was that they are Ayyad males from Shara. I also think that Demandred has solidified his rule in Shara, and having the Ayyad destroy Kandor is his way of showing the GL that he is ready to 'move his armies'.

 

The Ayyad men are used as breeding stock, they are never educated and are killed the moment they begin to channel or reach the age of 21--which ever is first. There wouldn't be very many of them--I don't think. But I guess if Demandred solidified his rule in (part of) Shara fast enough and began training the ones who were old enough to channel he could have a Black Tower of his own. Who knows how many channelers he would have though, since the Ayyad have--until his theoretical domination, strictly adhered to their laws to kill their males.

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I caught something buried in the third-to-last Glossary entry:

 

Towers of Midnight, the: ... Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong".

 

The entire Imperial family (except for Fortuona and Mat) was wiped out. Not sure if this is Last Battle-specific, or a reference to the potential Mat/Tuon outrigger novel where they re-conquer Seanchan... If this is something that has to happen during the Last Battle, it's suggestive that this will have something to do with disbanding the a'dam. At the least, there's a certain poetic justice to it since the Aes Sedai that created the a'dam let forth cries that shook the Towers of Midnight.

Edited by Sentinel78

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3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

Surely unless every single one of the Kin Elayne had in Caemlyn went with her to the 'big meeting' or conveniently died, one of them should have opened a Gateway to all the armies. Now I'm sure there'll be some reason it won't happen so smoothly, but the invasion should soon be facing hundreds of thousands of troops and hundreds of channelers in short order. Which given how a few dozen channelers went against 100k Shadowspawn in KOD, should see them toast pretty quickly.

 

Of course the Shadow could choose this fight as the time to bring their channelers out of the Shadows to fight. Or Demandred finally show what he's doing and bring forces. Or the Seanchan attack happen at the same time right at the start of AMOL so the 'Light forces' have to split to fight two battles at once, but as it currently stands it shouldn't be a big set back - not as large scale destruction as Maradon. I expect some spanner will get thrown in the works - the fun is trying to guess which one.

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For 4:

 

My first impression was that they are Ayyad males from Shara. I also think that Demandred has solidified his rule in Shara, and having the Ayyad destroy Kandor is his way of showing the GL that he is ready to 'move his armies'.

 

The Ayyad men are used as breeding stock, they are never educated and are killed the moment they begin to channel or reach the age of 21--which ever is first. There wouldn't be very many of them--I don't think. But I guess if Demandred solidified his rule in (part of) Shara fast enough and began training the ones who were old enough to channel he could have a Black Tower of his own. Who knows how many channelers he would have though, since the Ayyad have--until his theoretical domination, strictly adhered to their laws to kill their males.

 

In TGS Demandred tells Moridin that 'My rule is secure. I gather for war. We will be ready." I believe Demandred resides in Shara because of the unlikeliness that he is anywhere else. If he is ready for war by the prologue of TGS, I think it is very possible that he has had enough time to create a Black Tower of his own. And he doesn't need his soldiers to be smart, just to be able to channel. It can be paralleled with how Taim very quickly made Coteren and his croons powerful Asha'man.

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