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Luckers

Discuss The Prophecies

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How is she Moridins greatest rival? If she was considered that much of a rival I doubt he would have placed TP in her hands. Demandred would be his biggest rival; he is basically Lews Therin, but slightly less badass.

Who spoke of her being 'considered' a rival by Moridin? I'm not sure I agree with your point anyway, but the reason she is Moridin's greatest potential rival is simple: she stood stood the next highest amongst the Chosen.

Meh, for like a few weeks she did, assuming that's what was really going on in the TGS prologue. Demandred is up there. Both of them were 'all but promised' Nae'blis before Moridin showed up. I still wonder if Sammael was too, or if he was full of shit. If it's the latter, then I find it interesting that he was able to cow Graendal so easily. Sure, she got what she wanted in the end, but he really did freak her into submission.

 

I wonder if Semirhage was made any offers as well. She doesn't seem all that ambitious in that regard. But Mesaana is the only one who didn't even get a 'hello'. I still wonder about that, too.

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I absolutely love the prophecy threads! :D

 

"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning..."

I think we can all agree that the One-Eyed Fool is Mat. It's been suggested that 'halls of mourning' refer to him in the Tower of Ghenji. However, Mat still had both eyes when he was traveling the halls there. If I may, the color white is the color of mourning in Randland. We can be fairly certain the White Tower isn't just going to give Mat the Horn of Valere. We know that because of his ter'angreal that weaves can't touch him. What about wards and traps set with the OP? I can easily see Mat sneaking into the WT to get it... Like stealing pies from a goodwife's windowsill ;)

 

I had more, but I lost it while I was typing lol. I may have to start keeping notes. Keeping notes about a fictional story lol.

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Is "day" and "days" metaphorical in the prophesies because the timelines are tough to match?

The Fallen Blacksmith happens (or doesn't happen) earlier than the one-eye fool (Tarot usage - not a sign of disrespect) loses his eye and the freedom to Him who would Destroy hasn't happened yet.

The Broken Wolf may = Hopper since he's dead.

In a Dark Prophesy, ToM might just mean Tar Valon in TAR?

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From what i remember of Min's viewings Perrin has to save Rand twice. Once was at Dumais Wells but the second one still hasnt happened. My guess is this will happen now. Or maybe Perrin will save Rand from Lanfear or soemthing. But one thing is certain he has to save Rand and maybe that is when he will die(but i think this is unlikely...i think the rpophecy abt the fallen blacksmith has been fulfilled.)

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From what i remember of Min's viewings Perrin has to save Rand twice. Once was at Dumais Wells but the second one still hasnt happened. My guess is this will happen now. Or maybe Perrin will save Rand from Lanfear or soemthing. But one thing is certain he has to save Rand and maybe that is when he will die(but i think this is unlikely...i think the rpophecy abt the fallen blacksmith has been fulfilled.)

 

It may have been fulfilled when Perrin went up Dragonmount in the Wolf Dream, saw Rand, and begged him to stop.. and Rand did, poss because of Perrin's ta'veren influence.

 

JMO.

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I think Ituralde (the "Little Wolf") makes the most sense as being the "Broken Wolf" but I don't believe he is as central to story to merit being mentioned in the prophecies. Hopper would make sense but in reality, only three humans, Perrin, Elyas, and Faile, know what he did.

 

Luckers, you might be right about that tower being Graendal. It certainly references a Forsaken who fell low and now rose/or will rise to prominence. While the most obvious choice would be Moridin, I'm not so sure. Graendal has shown a great deal of potential and can be very ruthless. It certainly can't be Demandred since he doesn't fit. I also don't believe it's one of the mindtrapped Forsaken as it is unlikely Moridin will let them out of his reach (Rand's dream is troubling though).

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Ya, if it meant Ishamael, why would it rise higher than it was before? He was Nae'blis before and he's Nae'blis now. One would expect a tower rising to the exact same height if it meant him.

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Rand is First Among Vermin, since it says "lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy"

Him who will Destroy has to be the Dark One.

One-Eyed Fool is, obviously, Mat.

Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin.

 

If there's any doubt of these, remember that these three are all tied together, so it makes sense that they should be tied together in the prophecy.

 

I guess the Broken Wolf is Lan. I can't think of anyone else it could be. Killing off Lan would be a great way to up the tension - Verin was liked, but she was black ajah. Lan, though... man was a freaking saint. I sort of assume that Slayer will kill Lan - he's been wanting to for some time.

 

I think the Broken Wolf is Iturlde.

 

I think that Ituralde could be the Broken Wolf, but probably isn't.

 

Also, I'm surprised nobody has theorized that Fortuona (or the entire Seanchan Empire) could be the "First Among Vermin." Ravens are vermin, and ravens are the symbol of the Seanchan Empire. It could also refer to Mat as he is/was Prince of the Ravens (first among ravens/vermin).

 

Still, I do think the First Among Vermin is likely Rand, but we can't forget the Seanchan.

 

Finally, let's all not forget that the Dark Prophecy hasn't actually been fulfilled yet. It should be assumed that Perrin (the Broken Wolf and/or Fallen Blacksmith) will die and/or "know Death" ON THE DAY that Rand breaks the seals.

 

That day hasn't come yet.

 

First Among Vermin is pretty definitely referred to as male ("lifts his hand", or something like that - don't have the book in front of me)

 

If it wasn't for the timing and the fact that his death will cause anguish or whatever it is, I'd say the broken wolf was hopper. Wonder if it's Bashere? There have been references to the Broken Crown in Saldea, but no real explanation of what it is, as far as I remember.

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I reguard the Broken Wolf as Hopper--a wolf that has known death, consumed by the plans of Graendal.

 

But I have a new theory. What if "Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground—but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all." doesn't refer to Moridin at all? What if it's Graendal? After all she is the one that cracks and falls almost to the ground in ToM. She also was the greatest rival Moridin has. If she recovers herself, she could well grow tallest of all.

 

Thoughts?

 

I see Demandred as Moridin's greatest rival.

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Since this is a Shadow Prophecy about ( primarily ) their Light opponents, it makes sense for the titles to be derogatory.

 

Perrin would be called the Fallen Blacksmith because way back in the olden times, ( before forums on the internet ) Ishy/Baalzy ( as he did with Rand and Mat also ) offered Perrin the chance to change sides. Perrin refused, thus he becomes the"Fallen Blacksmith." Had he accepted he'd probably be the Exalted Blacksmith.

 

Since Mat also refused he becomes "the One-Eyed Fool."

 

This prophecy is actually first mentioned in Chapter 5. Long before Ituralde ( who is known as the Little Wolf ) is rescued from Maradon.

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

Had Ituralde been killed, that passage could have become true. One of the Four remaining Great Captains killed in what was essentially an opening skirmish of the war would indeed "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and ... shake their very will itself."

 

SO, if "the Broken Wolf" is indeed Rodel Ituralde, then this gloomy prophecy is already unraveling. As long as the Good Guys keep doin' what they're doin' the rest of this gloom and doom saying should fail to come true as well.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

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omg i said this already

the broken wolf is jain farstrider

 

That doesn't work. As far as the rest of the world knows, Jain Farstrider has been dead for decades. Nobody but Mat and Thom know it was him who died in Finnland.

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omg i said this already

the broken wolf is jain farstrider

 

Well, given that everybody already thought that Jain Farstrider was long dead, how exactly does his death bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shake their very will itself?

 

Oy! I was ninja-posted by Bob. :sad:

Edited by Tom Sawyer

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omg i said this already

the broken wolf is jain farstrider

 

That doesn't work. As far as the rest of the world knows, Jain Farstrider has been dead for decades. Nobody but Mat and Thom know it was him who died in Finnland.

 

um that's not how prophecies work.

like when the stone of tear fell, nobody knew the aiel were the people of the dragon

doesn't matter if nobody knows if jain is alive, but he's the broken wolf and he died in the towers of midnight

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Hi there!

 

I'm not much of a poster, but since no one even mentioned the prophecy I'd like to see discussed, I guess I'll be the first one to mention it.

 

(My very own first Theory^^)

 

 

 

 

ToM Chapter 32 - A Storm of Light

 

"Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized."

 

I have a feeling, that Callandor is not only a Sa'angreal for the One-Power but also for the True-Power.

 

Callandor ist often called "a blade of light", so that *could* be it, "the blade of light is held [...]" would be to easily understood for a prophecy, if phrased in this way. At least thats my opinion and a reason why I feel this is a valid interpretation.

 

The "maw of the infinite void" is the Great Lord Dark One.

Now, that next phrase could be interpreted in two diffrent ways I think.

 

Either I'm right, and all that HE is, can be seized (note the similar wording, 'to seize saidin/saidar'). What's done with HIM after that, I have no idea. Sealed / Cast Away (somehow) / Slain / Eaten (probably not eaten though).

Note that Rand seems to think, he still has access to the True Power (Boderland Meeting [Or it could be seen, that he know's that in the senario they're discussing, Dark-Rand would have had access. I'd like to think he still has access to it, thinking it is his link to Moradin that enables him. Would fit with my theory. But yeah, I'm on shaky ground]).

 

 

 

The other option I see, is that Min is right. That *Rand* is he, and can be seized, while trying to do with Callandor whatever he has planed to do to the Dark One. Min states her belive, that Rand can be attacked somehow while using Callandor.

 

Also, this option could be part of a diffrent theroy, one I don't know on which side I'm on.

While "seized" Rand could be seen as somehow linked to the Dark One (he'll be trying to do something, so in my head, that do be counting, yes?). And as we know, all Darkfriends are linked to the Dark One + Moradin will probably be there, and they have a connection no one understands so far.

 

Insert Body Sawp Theory here.

Rand - Moradin

 

 

Soo, my first theory. I hope I made myself clear, and that my spelling and use of the english language was comprehendible.

 

What do you think?

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omg i said this already

the broken wolf is jain farstrider

 

That doesn't work. As far as the rest of the world knows, Jain Farstrider has been dead for decades. Nobody but Mat and Thom know it was him who died in Finnland.

 

um that's not how prophecies work.

like when the stone of tear fell, nobody knew the aiel were the people of the dragon

doesn't matter if nobody knows if jain is alive, but he's the broken wolf and he died in the towers of midnight

 

How does the unknown death of somebody the world has thought to be dead for decades "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men," and " shake their very will itself."

 

If nobody knows he died they can't be all shaken up about it.

 

The Stone falling and Callandor being taken up by Rand was not a secret. When the Stone fell that made it very clear that the Aiel were the People of the Dragon, because the Stone wouldn't have fallen otherwise.

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Ok so running through the options for the wolf. There's 4 criteria for this person in the prophecy.

 

- wolf or some sort of wolf connection;

- their destruction must bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself;

- they must be consumed by the Midnight Towers; and

- they must have known Death.

 

The general consensus is that the Midnight Towers could refer to either the Seanchant, the Forsaken or the ToG so I'll assume either/or for those here.

 

I'll also note that it says they will be destroyed, as opposed to killed (Mesaana could be said to have been destroyed, Graendal's compulsion destroyed people etc). It could simply mean being killed though, again I'll treat it as either/or.

 

Now looking at the people it could be and who fits the criteria.

 

Hopper: a wolf, knows death, destruction did not bring fear, sorrow or shake anyone's will, was not consumed by the Forsaken, Seanchan or the ToG. 2 of 4 criteria met.

 

Lan: no connection to wolves, death would bring fear and sorrow and shake people's will, knows death through battle and through his link breaking with Moiraine, may actually die, no connection to Seanchan or ToG, no specific personal connection to the Forsaken. 2 of 4 criteria met.

 

Jain: no connection to wolves, no connection to the Seanchan, a connection to the Forsaken and to Moridin specifically, destruction did not bring fear and sorrow, didn't shake people's will. Was consumed by the ToG. 2 of 4, possibly 3 of 4 if you can accept that his death would shake the will of the people.

 

Ituralde: known as the wolf, has known death on the battlefield and may actually die, the death/destruction of a Great Captain for the Light would cause fear and sorrow and shake the will of the people/troops in the last battle, is connected to the Seanchan, is connected to the Forsaken, not connected to ToG. 3 of 4 criteria met, if he is destroyed in some way related to the Forsaken or Seanchan (which has been set up through his connections) then 4 of 4.

 

So from those I think we can rule out Lan and Hopper, leaving Jain and Ituralde. Jain can meet a maximum of 3 of 4 of the criteria, Ituralde can meet 4 of 4.

 

Convince me otherwise!

Edited by Kahlika

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Do we know if anyone else is associated with wolves - not necessarily as a wolfbrother, but potentially just through house or national symbols?

 

Bashere carries something with a wolf in it, I think it's his sword pommel. And we know he's associated with the 'Broken Crown'. My money is on Bashere being the Broken Wolf. Of course, I believe 'Death' refers to Moridin (since death is capitalized in the prophecy). This implies interesting things if Moridin knows Bashere.

 

I find this to be an interesting point...when we first saw the reincarnation of the 'Gars I'm pretty sure they commented that the bodies were stolen from the Borderland, seeing as Moridin was also a reincarnation, that body could also have come from the borderland. I believe that the Baton he carries has a wolf on the Pommel as well, as previously discussed the "Broken" part can come from whatever relationship he has to the Broken Wolf. His death would certainly shake the hearts and will of men because he is the General in charge of the Legion of the Dragon. Though I don't know of any accurate numbers, I feel like the Legion of the Dragon will have some substantial influence with those fighting the last battle (Combination of them and Aiel serving as an "honor guard" for Rand, since we know the Maidens won't leave him.) I can find Bashere as a plausible candidate for "Broken Wolf"

 

 

As far as the criteria for the "Broken Wolf" having already fallen I don't think that is the case. The fall of the Broken Wolf is in the same stanza that refers to events on the day of the seals being broken. At this point I think that "being consumed by the towers of midnight" part has yet to occur, thus that condition has not yet been met.

 

We overlook here that Wolf has to apply to a literal Wolf, it could be a term used to suggest something like an annoying enemy that is hard to kill. I still view Lan as a strong candidate for the Broken Wolf title.

 

I find the "First Among Vermin" link to Fortuona to be an interesting one as well, and something worth considering.

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and the First Among Vermin

Vermin implies a lack of respect so I don't think this can be Rand, the DO may hate him but there is respect there. The definition of vermin is an unpleasant, obnoxious, or dangerous person, it also implies expendible. For lack of a better candidate I'll say Fain.

lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,

He may well have his own reasons for doing something to 'free' the DO. Maybe, unwittingly, he'll be involved with the braking of the seals - that would justify his presence here.

I don't think it can be Fain. According to RJ he's outside the normal weaving of the pattern now, a free agent unique to this Age. I don't believe he can necessarily be predicted in prophecy and potentially can cause any of them to fail, including Fortellings and Min's visions.

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 15 November 1998, Dayton, OH - Scott Cantor reporting

 

He also mentioned the fact that Fain is essentially his wild card, a character that is outside the structure of the work and can therefore act totally unpredictably.

Edited by 1eejit

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First: Egwene's dream about rand chopping the ropes around the glowing sphere. First I got the crazy idea that Rand was going to make the Aes Sedai free themselves from the three oaths. Then I thought about the twenty-three stars shining down, and after some searching the only relevant number twenty-three I could find were the sul'dam captured at the end of TPoD. I think these twenty-three will playing an important role when Rand metaphorically chops every last a'dam, freeing the damane and setting the Seanchan down a more somber path.

 

The crumbling towers are obviously forsaken, 6 remaining. The one that crumbles down then rises highest of all has to represent Ishy's death, resurrection and coronation as Nae'blis. I am not as convinced as Egwene that the snake eating the fledglings is Mesaana, the deaths in the tower were from bloodknives but her ignorance of that fact maybe makes her misinterpret that dream. It seems more fitting to what's going on at the black tower, but I'm not sure.

 

One-Eyed Fool obviously Mat. First among Vermin obviously Rand (First among Servants, but shadow prophecy so add insult a'la One-Eyed Fool). The Fallen Blacksmith's pride - Perrin has let go of his pride and no longer wants to be just a blacksmith. I believe the Broken Wolf to be Ituralde, don't really see a reason for him to be called the Wolf if not for it to have some meaning, but remembering Bashere's "ivory rod capped with a golden wolf's head" together with Min's viewing ("And there's something... dark... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies...") he might be the one. The others suggested makes no sense to me.

 

-wasted, cheers for the idea of callandor maybe acting as a sa'angreal for more than just saidin, if true that could give interesting plot twists.

 

-1eejit, thanks for those bits, they do give some hope that maybe with Fain's help the DO can actually be killed off for good in this age, dunno if I really want that or not but it makes for nice speculation.

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Okay this is about a prophecy long before ToM.

 

What is with Guitara's prophecy that Luc had to go to the blight for the world to win the last battle? Has any new info come to light about this? And what implications could this have? Slayer is a bad bad thing now because he went to the blight. What could come of this? How is this significant?

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