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Not a simple question but may as well ask here.

This is about the nature of TAR

Hopper has always insisted that wolves who die in TAR die a "final death". I'd assumed earlier that it was only dead wolves who lived in TAR who died "final deaths" there if they got killed. Now I'm wondering about that assumption, post the stag incident when he prevents Perrin killing a stag.

It's not clear but was that stag a living dreaming animal (like many of the wolves in TAR)?

If so, does "final death" mean that GLoD cannot resurrect any living creature that happens to have dreamt its way into TAR and died there?

if so, are the BA and AS who died in TAR all now outside GLoD's grasp (whether they'll be reborn eventually is a different issue)?

Contradictory evidence - Slayer kills wolves in TAR and seems to turn them into Darkhounds. That argues GLoD can pull them

 

Might have missed something, but I don't remember any part stating that the wolves Slayer kills turn into Darkhounds. I thought Elyas said that if a Darkhound seriously wounds a wolf without killing it they could take the soul for the Shadow and have it twisted into Darkhounds?

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So, a question has been on my mind and no solution yet .... any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Why did Verin not teach Traveling to Joline, Teslyn or Edesina?

 

Verin had the time/opportunity and the three AS passed through the gateway with Mat to Andor so Verin must have made an effort to keep the knowledge of the weaving from them. Was this an effort by Verin to keep Mat in/close to Caemlyn? Is this an indication that one of those three is Black? Seems to me this is beyond simple t'a'veren (sp?) influence.

 

What do folks think?

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why didnt the gholam die immediately when he passed through a gateway. From what we know it should have immediately died, but instead it continued to fight up till mat pushed it over the edge.

 

Is this due to him being unable to be effected by the power, or is it something else, maybe in the process of creating them the matrix composed of TP OP stock combination is more stable then that of other constructs

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why didnt the gholam die immediately when he passed through a gateway. From what we know it should have immediately died, but instead it continued to fight up till mat pushed it over the edge.

 

Is this due to him being unable to be effected by the power, or is it something else, maybe in the process of creating them the matrix composed of TP OP stock combination is more stable then that of other constructs

 

According to Brandon the gholam is "not shadowspawn like other shadowspawn." In other words, no idea, I'm sure they will come up with a better explanation later :)

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So, a question has been on my mind and no solution yet .... any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Why did Verin not teach Traveling to Joline, Teslyn or Edesina?

 

Verin had the time/opportunity and the three AS passed through the gateway with Mat to Andor so Verin must have made an effort to keep the knowledge of the weaving from them. Was this an effort by Verin to keep Mat in/close to Caemlyn? Is this an indication that one of those three is Black? Seems to me this is beyond simple t'a'veren (sp?) influence.

 

What do folks think?

 

Also, they would have had to go through Verin's gateway to get to Camelyn with Mat, so they'd have seen the weaves and been able to duplicate them. Even if none of them are powerful enough to create one on their own, they can link together and make one. It does seem an odd plothole.

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Not a simple question but may as well ask here.

This is about the nature of TAR

Hopper has always insisted that wolves who die in TAR die a "final death". I'd assumed earlier that it was only dead wolves who lived in TAR who died "final deaths" there if they got killed. Now I'm wondering about that assumption, post the stag incident when he prevents Perrin killing a stag.

It's not clear but was that stag a living dreaming animal (like many of the wolves in TAR)?

If so, does "final death" mean that GLoD cannot resurrect any living creature that happens to have dreamt its way into TAR and died there?

if so, are the BA and AS who died in TAR all now outside GLoD's grasp (whether they'll be reborn eventually is a different issue)?

Contradictory evidence - Slayer kills wolves in TAR and seems to turn them into Darkhounds. That argues GLoD can pull them

 

Might have missed something, but I don't remember any part stating that the wolves Slayer kills turn into Darkhounds. I thought Elyas said that if a Darkhound seriously wounds a wolf without killing it they could take the soul for the Shadow and have it twisted into Darkhounds?

It's been hinted that the new massive pack that's seen in CoT (and referred to in WH) is a Slayer creation. He set it up to hunt Fain. No, this is not certain which is why I said "seems to turn them".

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So, a question has been on my mind and no solution yet .... any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Why did Verin not teach Traveling to Joline, Teslyn or Edesina?

 

Verin had the time/opportunity and the three AS passed through the gateway with Mat to Andor so Verin must have made an effort to keep the knowledge of the weaving from them. Was this an effort by Verin to keep Mat in/close to Caemlyn? Is this an indication that one of those three is Black? Seems to me this is beyond simple t'a'veren (sp?) influence.

 

What do folks think?

 

Also, they would have had to go through Verin's gateway to get to Camelyn with Mat, so they'd have seen the weaves and been able to duplicate them. Even if none of them are powerful enough to create one on their own, they can link together and make one. It does seem an odd plothole.

 

What is it that you mean by your first line? I already indicated the three AS passed through the gateway, italicized in both messages, above. I am not suggesting this is a "plothole" - assuming that word means what it seems. In direct contrast, I think it was an intentional expurgation by Verin and am wondering as to potential motivation.

 

Strength is certainly not an issue. Joline and Teslyn were both Sitters, and while strength in the OP is not exclusively determinative in Tower politics, it most certainly bears weight. We can assume both J and T are fairly strong.

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So, a question has been on my mind and no solution yet .... any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Why did Verin not teach Traveling to Joline, Teslyn or Edesina?

 

Verin had the time/opportunity and the three AS passed through the gateway with Mat to Andor so Verin must have made an effort to keep the knowledge of the weaving from them. Was this an effort by Verin to keep Mat in/close to Caemlyn? Is this an indication that one of those three is Black? Seems to me this is beyond simple t'a'veren (sp?) influence.

 

What do folks think?

 

Also, they would have had to go through Verin's gateway to get to Camelyn with Mat, so they'd have seen the weaves and been able to duplicate them. Even if none of them are powerful enough to create one on their own, they can link together and make one. It does seem an odd plothole.

Just seeing the Gate isn't apparently enough. You have to be taught the weaves. Verin didn't teach them for whatever reasons.

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So, a question has been on my mind and no solution yet .... any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Why did Verin not teach Traveling to Joline, Teslyn or Edesina?

 

Verin had the time/opportunity and the three AS passed through the gateway with Mat to Andor so Verin must have made an effort to keep the knowledge of the weaving from them. Was this an effort by Verin to keep Mat in/close to Caemlyn? Is this an indication that one of those three is Black? Seems to me this is beyond simple t'a'veren (sp?) influence.

 

What do folks think?

 

Also, they would have had to go through Verin's gateway to get to Camelyn with Mat, so they'd have seen the weaves and been able to duplicate them. Even if none of them are powerful enough to create one on their own, they can link together and make one. It does seem an odd plothole.

Just seeing the Gate isn't apparently enough. You have to be taught the weaves. Verin didn't teach them for whatever reasons.

 

 

Quick learners can simply read the weaves and do it on their own. We have seen men and women both copying others weaves just by seeing it weaved once. Ofcourse it requires not only skill but strength also to copy some else's weave. Or may be Verin literally hid the weaves from these three, which just sounds odd.

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So, a question has been on my mind and no solution yet .... any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Why did Verin not teach Traveling to Joline, Teslyn or Edesina?

 

Verin had the time/opportunity and the three AS passed through the gateway with Mat to Andor so Verin must have made an effort to keep the knowledge of the weaving from them. Was this an effort by Verin to keep Mat in/close to Caemlyn? Is this an indication that one of those three is Black? Seems to me this is beyond simple t'a'veren (sp?) influence.

 

What do folks think?

 

Also, they would have had to go through Verin's gateway to get to Camelyn with Mat, so they'd have seen the weaves and been able to duplicate them. Even if none of them are powerful enough to create one on their own, they can link together and make one. It does seem an odd plothole.

Just seeing the Gate isn't apparently enough. You have to be taught the weaves. Verin didn't teach them for whatever reasons.

 

 

Quick learners can simply read the weaves and do it on their own. We have seen men and women both copying others weaves just by seeing it weaved once. Ofcourse it requires not only skill but strength also to copy some else's weave. Or may be Verin literally hid the weaves from these three, which just sounds odd.

She may have ensured that she opened the Gate when they were not present.

Edit: I meant that it is not enough to simply see an open Gate, you cannot reverse-engineer the source code, you have to watch the weaves being woven.

Edited by Sharaman
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Seeing the weaves being formed, and seeing them already in place are two different things. I seem to recall Cadsuane keeping other AS out of the room while she made a gateway (WH?). Verin may have done the same thing.

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The red veiled Aiel with teeth filed down to fangs, what where they?

 

they are described as having dark eyes.

 

at first I thought they where the Aiel who over the years have been going to shayol ghul to 'battle' the DO that have been captured and turned. . . but with dark eyes that is not possible unless the TP or TP filtered OP (due to going through the myrrdraal) does something physical to them as in changing their eye colour as well as increasing dark attributes.

 

I am also currently theorizing that these are the channellers that the ASha Man have been sensing, although they have been kept hidden so that they can attack harder.

 

quick question brough on by tiredness, lets say that a myrrdraal was sacraficed could the DO transmitigate its soul into lets say an aiel channeller, would it be able to access the source? if so would that change eye colour?

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The red veiled Aiel with teeth filed down to fangs, what where they?

 

they are described as having dark eyes.

 

at first I thought they where the Aiel who over the years have been going to shayol ghul to 'battle' the DO that have been captured and turned. . . but with dark eyes that is not possible unless the TP or TP filtered OP (due to going through the myrrdraal) does something physical to them as in changing their eye colour as well as increasing dark attributes.

 

I am also currently theorizing that these are the channellers that the ASha Man have been sensing, although they have been kept hidden so that they can attack harder.

 

quick question brough on by tiredness, lets say that a myrrdraal was sacraficed could the DO transmitigate its soul into lets say an aiel channeller, would it be able to access the source? if so would that change eye colour?

 

 

 

 

I think this is a pretty good guess, I assume the 'black eyed Aiel' (interesting how that misnomer of a saying has come true) are the Male Aiel channelers that have gone into the blight to battle the Dark One over the years, I think it likely that they've been turned to the shadow. 13 black ajah sisters channeling through 13 Myrdraal. And then the madness is allowed to run rampant as the Dark One has control so to speak. Unlike the Forsaken, who he protects from the madness, these, he submerges in it, making them tools and pawns of considerable but very controllable power.

 

It also wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Isle of Madmen, has been harvested regularly...I mean, the Shadow has had gateways since forever, and Ishmael was never fully sealed away.

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So, a question has been on my mind and no solution yet .... any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Why did Verin not teach Traveling to Joline, Teslyn or Edesina?

 

Verin had the time/opportunity and the three AS passed through the gateway with Mat to Andor so Verin must have made an effort to keep the knowledge of the weaving from them. Was this an effort by Verin to keep Mat in/close to Caemlyn? Is this an indication that one of those three is Black? Seems to me this is beyond simple t'a'veren (sp?) influence.

 

What do folks think?

 

Also, they would have had to go through Verin's gateway to get to Camelyn with Mat, so they'd have seen the weaves and been able to duplicate them. Even if none of them are powerful enough to create one on their own, they can link together and make one. It does seem an odd plothole.

Just seeing the Gate isn't apparently enough. You have to be taught the weaves. Verin didn't teach them for whatever reasons.

 

 

Quick learners can simply read the weaves and do it on their own. We have seen men and women both copying others weaves just by seeing it weaved once. Ofcourse it requires not only skill but strength also to copy some else's weave. Or may be Verin literally hid the weaves from these three, which just sounds odd.

 

Channelers definitely have to see the process in order to learn, not just the end result. It seems certain to me that Verin must have hid the actual forming of the weave from JoTeEd, otherwise they would have Traveled directly to TV rather than having to ride the whole way from Caemlyn. No doubt it is odd, and when it comes to Verin, oddities deserve another look IMO.

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I think the oddity is that verin seems to have only used one gateway to move the band, whereas it should have taken dozens, weeks to move that many soldiers through a single persons gateways

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I think the oddity is that verin seems to have only used one gateway to move the band, whereas it should have taken dozens, weeks to move that many soldiers through a single persons gateways

 

Verin did still have her sa'angreal from what the reader knows and I do not think Mat had nearly the same numbers to move as Perrin. Plus, there are two other unknown variables - Verin's inherent capacity to weave a gateway relative to Perrin's Ash'a'man and exactly how long it did take for Mat's crew to get through the gateway.

 

Heck, for all we know, Verin may have tapped her sa'ang, linked with the AS and then made them close their eyes while she performed the weaving, opened a gateway thrice the size one that the ash'a'man with Perrin could weave and then tied it off for a day while she visited her BA associates in Caemlyn.

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how did Tam gateway out of Perrin's camp with the dreamspike in play? more importantly, how did Cadsuane contact him with the dreamspike in effect.

 

I'm sure I'm missing something, but he leaves right after the bubble of evil which is after the gateways started failing.

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how did Tam gateway out of Perrin's camp with the dreamspike in play? more importantly, how did Cadsuane contact him with the dreamspike in effect.

 

I'm sure I'm missing something, but he leaves right after the bubble of evil which is after the gateways started failing.

tam was contacted while visiting a town which was outside the boundary

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I think the oddity is that verin seems to have only used one gateway to move the band, whereas it should have taken dozens, weeks to move that many soldiers through a single persons gateways

 

Why? It didn't take Perrin's army weeks to move, and he pretty much only used the two Asha'man for that. And they gate-hopped a lot. In fact, I don't think anyone else with him knew how to make gateways.

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how did Tam gateway out of Perrin's camp with the dreamspike in play? more importantly, how did Cadsuane contact him with the dreamspike in effect.

 

I'm sure I'm missing something, but he leaves right after the bubble of evil which is after the gateways started failing.

 

He didn't gate out of the camp. He apparently ran into Nynaeve in a village some ways away. He just came back to tell Perrin he was leaving.

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I think the oddity is that verin seems to have only used one gateway to move the band, whereas it should have taken dozens, weeks to move that many soldiers through a single persons gateways

7,000 soldiers for Mat versus 100,000 soldiers + camp followers + wagons, etc for Perrin.

Verin had an angreal not a sa'angreal.

She said it would take a few hours.

Possible - 20 disciplined soldiers a minute = 1200/ hr = 6 hours for a single horse-wide Gate

She's not particularly strong in the OP but she might be good at Gates like Androl.

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I think the oddity is that verin seems to have only used one gateway to move the band, whereas it should have taken dozens, weeks to move that many soldiers through a single persons gateways

 

Why? It didn't take Perrin's army weeks to move, and he pretty much only used the two Asha'man for that. And they gate-hopped a lot. In fact, I don't think anyone else with him knew how to make gateways.

the two ashaman linked with the wise ones and AS, allowing them to create huge gateways.

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Don't forget that Mat did not have the entire band with him, only a few thousand men, it takes a few hours to move a few thousand people through a doorway, faster if no one stops. Versus Perrin's entire army, which is approximately the same size as the entire band.

Edited by Torn Shadow
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