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Well, Rand is ta'veren, which is literary speak for "justification for doing things in the most dramatic way possible because the wheel somethings as the wheel wills" (does anyone get the impression that this is the michelin man? - you know, sentient wheels)

 

And you cannot tell me that the whole "Nynaeve gathering an army for him" thing isn't both dramatic and awesome.

 

Beyond that... who knows?

 

More like ta'veren means, "Batges? We dunt need to chowe ju no steenkeen batges."

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Something has my head a buzz. When did the whole Thom moraine relationship become a love interest? Is it something subtle? Haha I felt like Matt all confused. I mean sure it was likely but also seemed a bit rushed.

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Something has my head a buzz. When did the whole Thom moraine relationship become a love interest? Is it something subtle? Haha I felt like Matt all confused. I mean sure it was likely but also seemed a bit rushed.

RJ started dropping hints for this in book one. Like Thom said...you must not have been paying attention. ;) I posted a summary of all the clues on MySpace a couple of years ago. Enjoy. :moiraine:

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However, for the time being, he is now easily and comfortably holding saidin 24/7.

 

Is this actually true?

 

Nope. For one, the instant he entered the Guardian to meet with the Borderlanders, he'd have lost saidin. For two, when he entered Tar Valon, they had his ass shielded in a heartbeat. For three, when he does his Storm of Light routine, it's clearly implied that he lets go of the Power when he's done. He himself says he's exhausted and must rest.

 

People are seemingly just assuming it's so because he hasn't shown signs of the sickness when channeling anymore, and the vision of Padra that Aviendha had.

Since only one POV is Rand's, and that in a dream and one which never mentions the Power at all, there's really no good basis for this 24/7 idea.

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However, for the time being, he is now easily and comfortably holding saidin 24/7.

 

Is this actually true?

 

Nope. For one, the instant he entered the Guardian to meet with the Borderlanders, he'd have lost saidin. For two, when he entered Tar Valon, they had his ass shielded in a heartbeat. For three, when he does his Storm of Light routine, it's clearly implied that he lets go of the Power when he's done. He himself says he's exhausted and must rest.

 

People are seemingly just assuming it's so because he hasn't shown signs of the sickness when channeling anymore, and the vision of Padra that Aviendha had.

Since only one POV is Rand's, and that in a dream and one which never mentions the Power at all, there's really no good basis for this 24/7 idea.

 

Thank you. Thought I had missed something.

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Question:

 

How did the wall in Maradon (I think? Rodel Ituralde's seige scenes) get blasted? I don't remember if someone sensed channeling or not. With the way the timeline jumps around in the book, I started to wonder if it was a captured cannon dragon from Caemlyn.

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Question:

 

How did the wall in Maradon (I think? Rodel Ituralde's seige scenes) get blasted? I don't remember if someone sensed channeling or not. With the way the timeline jumps around in the book, I started to wonder if it was a captured cannon dragon from Caemlyn.

 

Male channelers. An Asha'man is telling Rodel that they feel men channeling and then the Asha'man is insulted that Rodel calls these darkfriend channelers Asha'man. Right after that the wall is blown up pretty much right from under Rodel's feet.

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An aside from the Discuss the Entire Book thread.

 

What happened to Laman's sword? Rand started using the new power-wrought sword (Justice) in TGS, but I can't recall anything bad happening to his previous sword. Did he just start using Justice once he acquired it, relegating Laman's sword to his alternate pile? Or did something happen to it?

 

 

I believe Justice is a one handed sword and now that rand is a one handed swordsman he is using that instead of the old one that was one/two handed. He made mention when he lost his hand that he would have to learn a new way.

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Question:

 

How did the wall in Maradon (I think? Rodel Ituralde's seige scenes) get blasted? I don't remember if someone sensed channeling or not. With the way the timeline jumps around in the book, I started to wonder if it was a captured cannon dragon from Caemlyn.

 

Deepe Bhadar, the leader of Ituralde's Asha'man felt it was the combined work of six or more Dark channelers.

 

The chapter you're looking for is Oddities. It all happens around page 444.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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Loved the book, but have a few questions.

 

In VOG, did Rand fulfill the prophecy about standing on a black rock that may be his grave? He mentioned the ground around him melted and a black fingernail was left, and it is where LTT died.

 

Did Perrin fulfill the second time he needed to be there for rand when he was in the Dream world and watched Rand on Dragonmount. If so i find it weak, but he kept saying that he must be there so I wasn't sure.

 

Who was the crazy Aiel lady Avi talks with in the waste?

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Loved the book, but have a few questions.

 

In VOG, did Rand fulfill the prophecy about standing on a black rock that may be his grave? He mentioned the ground around him melted and a black fingernail was left, and it is where LTT died.

 

Did Perrin fulfill the second time he needed to be there for rand when he was in the Dream world and watched Rand on Dragonmount. If so i find it weak, but he kept saying that he must be there so I wasn't sure.

 

Who was the crazy Aiel lady Avi talks with in the waste?

 

1. Yes

2. It's speculative - maybe so, maybe not.

3. You tell me :) - there's a Nakomi thread and an Aviendha thread where many possibilities are being suggested.

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I have a question regarding Taim's lackeys. In Androl's POV we learn that they are "learning" very fast and getting promoted to full Asha'man rank. Now are these new Asha'man really skilled and strong in OP or Taim is just promoting them dime a dozen, giving the impression that they are learning pretty fast? Unless each of these pets have Angreal of their own, how can they gain strength so quickly?

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Apologies if this question has already been answered, but here it is:

 

We know that the True Power feels much more seductive and is capable of some amazing stuff (including, apparently, making you physically stronger). I am guessing, therefore, that it also means that the TP is more potent than the OP. Is this a verified conclusion, or is it still speculation?

 

Oh, and, one more question: As we all know, Siuan was Healed from being stilled, but at a reduced strength because it was a woman that did it, and not a man. If another Asha'man skilled at Healing tried, could he bring her back to her former power? If not, would it not be an idea to just still her again, and have a man do the job from the start, as it were?

Edited by Demon_AS
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Is Grady's son supposed to be the rebirth of Gaidal Caine? I could have sworn I read somewhere that RJ confirmed that it wasn't meant to be Olver.

You are right, but Grady's son doesn't fit either. The timing is all wrong.

 

Why is the timing wrong? I just feel like him having a child "ugly as a stump" right before the Last Battle is a little too much of a coincidence..

 

He's too old. The sign that Gaidal was reborn, vanishing from the dream, happened shortly before Birgitte was ripped out in tFoH. Grady's son was around four years old at the beginning of LoC. Also, the year was 998 NE in tEotW, and the current year is 1000 NE. Do the math.

 

Except we're told explicitly that time in T'A'R is not the same as in the real world. This brings up another question too--does the Hero's soul leave T'A'R when his/her new body is born, or when that body achieves it's first inklings of self-awareness, or at some other point?

 

If it's when the body is born Grady's son being Gaidal Cain causes a few messy issues with timelines but nothing that can't be waived away by different time flows. If it's the second issue, than it's not at all unreasonable to think that Grady's son was born, and then 6-8 months later Gaidal's soul leaves T'A'R. That would fit perfectly into the timeline we have.

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How old is Grady's son? If he is under 2 yrs old, he should be the right age. When we first see Grady he is one of the first ones being tested in Rand's presence by Taim and his wife is mentioned (who glares at Rand) but I don't remember no kids and its not specified if she pregnant or not.

 

As I said earlier: in the beginning of LoC Grady's son looks to be about four years old. He's mentioned twice in that book, BTW. And no, under two years wouldn't be enough. Gaidal vanished from T'A'R shortly before Birgitte was ripped out, which was sometime after his last appearance towards the end of tSR. The kid would be a bit over a year old at the very most. Most likely, under a year. Well under. Nobody ever seems to take the pregnancy part into account (Birgitte included). So, deduct about 9 months from his age.

 

The whole story has only been two years from the time Moiraine showed up in Edmond's Field. As I mentioned in an earlier post time in T'A'R is wonky compared to real life. Also we don't know for sure that a Hero's soul leaves T'A'R on the birth of his body, or at the first inklings of self-awareness from that child or at some later event.

 

Personally I don't think that anybody we've met or heard about is Gaidal Cain reborn. I think that's a plot line that's not every going to be resolved (sadly).

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Well, Rand is ta'veren, which is literary speak for "justification for doing things in the most dramatic way possible because the wheel somethings as the wheel wills" (does anyone get the impression that this is the michelin man? - you know, sentient wheels)

 

And you cannot tell me that the whole "Nynaeve gathering an army for him" thing isn't both dramatic and awesome.

 

Beyond that... who knows?

 

Nynaeve gathering lost Malkieri is my favorite scene in the entire series bar none.

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Oh, right, I did have a (b). From p. 754:

 

"The Guardian blocks the One Power," Rand whispered. "The One Power only."

 

This is in Far Madding, in the context of "I'd have returned those slaps with balefire." So... have we had any indication that Rand has access to the True Power? Or is it just meant to imply that, if he hadn't seen the light, he'd be serving the Dark One by now?

 

I took it to mean both. I think that Rand can still access the TP if he wanted to, but the cost would be horrendous.

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The red veiled Aiel with teeth filed down to fangs, what where they?

 

they are described as having dark eyes.

 

at first I thought they where the Aiel who over the years have been going to shayol ghul to 'battle' the DO that have been captured and turned. . . but with dark eyes that is not possible unless the TP or TP filtered OP (due to going through the myrrdraal) does something physical to them as in changing their eye colour as well as increasing dark attributes.

 

I am also currently theorizing that these are the channellers that the ASha Man have been sensing, although they have been kept hidden so that they can attack harder.

 

quick question brough on by tiredness, lets say that a myrrdraal was sacraficed could the DO transmitigate its soul into lets say an aiel channeller, would it be able to access the source? if so would that change eye colour?

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Is Grady's son supposed to be the rebirth of Gaidal Caine? I could have sworn I read somewhere that RJ confirmed that it wasn't meant to be Olver.

You are right, but Grady's son doesn't fit either. The timing is all wrong.

 

Why is the timing wrong? I just feel like him having a child "ugly as a stump" right before the Last Battle is a little too much of a coincidence..

 

He's too old. The sign that Gaidal was reborn, vanishing from the dream, happened shortly before Birgitte was ripped out in tFoH. Grady's son was around four years old at the beginning of LoC. Also, the year was 998 NE in tEotW, and the current year is 1000 NE. Do the math.

 

Except we're told explicitly that time in T'A'R is not the same as in the real world. This brings up another question too--does the Hero's soul leave T'A'R when his/her new body is born, or when that body achieves it's first inklings of self-awareness, or at some other point?

 

If it's when the body is born Grady's son being Gaidal Cain causes a few messy issues with timelines but nothing that can't be waived away by different time flows. If it's the second issue, than it's not at all unreasonable to think that Grady's son was born, and then 6-8 months later Gaidal's soul leaves T'A'R. That would fit perfectly into the timeline we have.

RJ made a couple of relevant statements when debunking Olver = gaidal

1) Time flows differently in TAR but it does not flow backwards

2) The soul inhabits/ enters the foetus from the moment of conception

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I've been thinking about the link between Rand and the TP as well.

 

I agree that LTT's reaction to Rand's initial use of the TP makes it unlikely that he views it as a readily available resource.

 

However, I've been wondering why it was explicitly stated, both while Rand is shielded in the White Tower and while in Far Madding, that he's completely at ease. I believe one of the Aes Sedai holding the shield on him even said something about how she got the impression he could break it whenever he wanted to.

 

Is this radically different reaction due to the TP being an ace in the hole for Rand now? Is Uber-Rand now no longer subject to the rules we're familiar with when dealing with shields and the Guardian? Given LTT's panic when Rand was first captured, I think we can rule out his restored memories simply giving him a way to bypass such measures...

 

Right now I feel like it's connected to the white light Nynaeve saw in his head and his newfound ability to root out Darkfriends, but it's just an initial reaction.

 

Thoughts?

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I have a question regarding Taim's lackeys. In Androl's POV we learn that they are "learning" very fast and getting promoted to full Asha'man rank. Now are these new Asha'man really skilled and strong in OP or Taim is just promoting them dime a dozen, giving the impression that they are learning pretty fast? Unless each of these pets have Angreal of their own, how can they gain strength so quickly?

 

AFAIK strength and learning rates are different things. Admittedly someone who's strong in the OP has greater potential, but that doesnt mean they pick up new things straight away. Elaida was considered relatively strong pre-Wonder girls era, but she is quite convincingly an absolute tool, so she may need to be shown weaves several times.

 

Anywho, I reckon Taim's side is simply not teaching the rest of the BT a whole lot, just enough to think they're doing ok and letting them learn the rest on their own. At the same time Taim is making sure his guys learn as much as they can, simply giving them more access to more information etc.

 

 

***

 

The rebirth of Gaidal has been argued about so much, seen so many posts these last few weeks over Olver and Gradys son with everyone in support of those arguments conveniently ignoring the fact that T'A'R doesn't go back in time...

 

***

 

I think Rand ease in those situations is simply confidence both from the extra age/memories from VoG and I guess the happy happy knowledge that the world is screwed if they try pushing against him too much. Go for it, you try forcing the Dragon Reborn to stay in the WT if he doesn't want to be there. His incredible strength and knowledge aside you'll kinda annoy his armies a tad and he probably won't be overly co-operative. I'm surprised he didn't just get a whole "Let the World Burn" mentality pre VoG. There's much funner things he could be doing with his last days

Edited by The Legacy
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Is Grady's son supposed to be the rebirth of Gaidal Caine? I could have sworn I read somewhere that RJ confirmed that it wasn't meant to be Olver.

You are right, but Grady's son doesn't fit either. The timing is all wrong.

 

Why is the timing wrong? I just feel like him having a child "ugly as a stump" right before the Last Battle is a little too much of a coincidence..

 

He's too old. The sign that Gaidal was reborn, vanishing from the dream, happened shortly before Birgitte was ripped out in tFoH. Grady's son was around four years old at the beginning of LoC. Also, the year was 998 NE in tEotW, and the current year is 1000 NE. Do the math.

 

Except we're told explicitly that time in T'A'R is not the same as in the real world. This brings up another question too--does the Hero's soul leave T'A'R when his/her new body is born, or when that body achieves it's first inklings of self-awareness, or at some other point?

 

If it's when the body is born Grady's son being Gaidal Cain causes a few messy issues with timelines but nothing that can't be waived away by different time flows. If it's the second issue, than it's not at all unreasonable to think that Grady's son was born, and then 6-8 months later Gaidal's soul leaves T'A'R. That would fit perfectly into the timeline we have.

 

RJ quote time:

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in Tel'aran'rhiod. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

 

and:

 

H: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?

RJ: Hmm… I’d have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.

 

Grady's kid is too old. By far. He was four in LoC, when Rand takes Taim to the farm for the first time. Birgitte was ripped out around 50 or so days prior, and Gaidal made his last on-screen T'A'R appearance about 70 days before that. So, the very earliest he could have left T'A'R was approximately 120 days before Grady's four-year old son appeared in the books. Assuming he was exactly four to the day (which is a bad assumption), he would have still been well over three years old. A three year old is not a foetus. And even if the exact day count for Gaidal being spun out is higher than estimated, it would still have to be off by so much that the series wouldn't have even begun yet in order for him to be Grady's son. Same goes for the kid being younger: his apparent age would have to be off by years to make the timeline work. Obviously, him being somewhat older than 4-to-the-day just makes the problem worse.

Edited by didymos
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Hey

 

I was just wondering if I'd completely missed something in a slight brain lapse whilst reading, but I swear there's something strange going on with where Tam is. He's all over the place..

 

one minute he's with perrin, then suddenly he's with rand, then he's back with perrin again. like seemingly nothing has happened

 

 

did anyone else see this or am I just being thick? cheers

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Hey

 

I was just wondering if I'd completely missed something in a slight brain lapse whilst reading, but I swear there's something strange going on with where Tam is. He's all over the place..

 

One of the editing problems they encountered when piecing tGS and ToM together. TGS needed to be a focused book with fewer viewpoints and a driven story, while ToM could, once tGS had revived the fandom, have the luxury of start pulling multiple strings. One of tGS's chief storylines was Rand and Rand had to meet Tam at the climax of the storyline, so Tam had to get moved in there. But there just wasn't space or narrative opportunity to move Perrin's story ahead far enough in tGS to let go of Tam, so Perrin's storyline was moved to ToM wholesale.

 

Not elegant, but necessary.

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Crossed timelines, random. When Tam is with Perrin is before when he is with Rand. (when Perrin goes to dragonmount in T'A'R is when his time-line catches up to where VoG left off, and the dreamspike episode is where he catches up to everyone else)

Edited by Torn Shadow
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