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The thing I think Sanderson has taken the most liberty with

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Do my eyes deceive me or are people actually complaining about character development? Progress in people? One of the greatest criticisms of characters I have ever heard from readers is that the characters do not talk to each other.. well now they are. And with only one book to go, it's somehow wrong for them to be doing so?

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Do my eyes deceive me or are people actually complaining about character development? Progress in people? One of the greatest criticisms of characters I have ever heard from readers is that the characters do not talk to each other.. well now they are. And with only one book to go, it's somehow wrong for them to be doing so?

 

I actually always appreciated the tight-lipped nature of many of the WoT characters. It feels more true to how those types of people behave; RJ was a master at getting across the thoughts and feelings of his characters in a non-verbal way; if you're human and you understand emotion you don't really need every little emo spelled out for you. For instance, Talmanes. If you have half a brain, you can see he was actually a character with a sense of humor, which he kept to himself. There were a couple of things he said in RJs day that had Mat wondering about him. That's just the way he was. BS had to spell it out for everybody to the point where he starts acting like a flirty girl with Mat, thus caricaturing the nature of his character.

 

It just goes to show, no matter who wrote AMoL, some of us were going to be disgruntled with a new writer and others just want all the spoilers. There are two types of WoT fans, those of us who love the answer RAFO and wish Jordan had lived to make it a 20 book series, and those who don't. It's all good, I just need an outlet to vent my frustrations, is all.

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To us, the readers, these people may be seeming unreasonable. Reason is a point of view. Point of View's all respect responsibility. Tuon is madly adamant of having the Dragon Reborn as her tool to use, only because her peoples' prophecy clearly states that the Empire will save the world. She feels a responsibility to the entire planet, not just her people. Albeit, the Seanchan people have a very pre-civil war view on their subjects that doesn't click well with the people of Randland, therefor we look at her demands as unreasonable, but we wouldn't think so if the Eye of the World started out in Tuon's home town.

 

Egwene has equal responsibility on her shoulders. The indoctrination of the Aes Sedai on the view of male channelers has distorted her views of one of her best friends and past romantic interests. It doesn't mean that she's being unreasonable. During Nyneave's delve into Rand's brain, he was clearly afflicted by a vast amount of the measurable little madness bubbles. Egwene has a right to question his mental stability, especially when the crazy woolhead walks into Tar Valon on his own free will. This point of view would have shifted dramatically if Egwene had spent the time with Rand that Nyneave and Co have. Without a doubt. She isn't being unreasonable either, when Rand simply tells her 'oh, yeah i'm busting those seals, but I got this covered' - because that in and of itself is cause for a great deal of concern. However, the series has taught us that the Female Aes Sedai sit around and ponder things too much. Rand knows the end is on their doorsteps. Egwene is apparently far more concerned with the Seanchan than the Dark One at this point.

 

As for Caddy, She's always been a bit unreasonable, but that is to be expected with her upbringing. I never really liked her, but I was intrigued with her instruction and education in the One Power. Towers of Midnight allowed me to develop a mild liking towards her, and a sliver of respect. Still unreasonable, but more put in her place than before.

 

And Elayne, I have never liked her, and want to kick Rand. He's only with her cus she's hawt.

 

Also, FarShainMael, I thought Graendal's escape was absolutely ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Taking what could have been the most epic death scene EVER in the series followed close behind by Rahvin, and butchering it so badly. .

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I think, critically speaking, the issue with Lan was the grandiose speech he makes when he raise the golden crane. It felt out of character. Other than that, I thought he was fine.

 

And I do not agree with BWS making the characters more co-operative and more touchy-feely. I doubt that such a change would have gotten through editing. This was deliberate...now maybe the increased loquaciousness of the main characters would have been written differently by RJ, (in fact there's no 'maybe' about it!) but this had to happen for the plot to move forward and RJ would have done it also.

 

The case in point is Mat and Perrin...your BFFs and you haven't seen each other in years...of course you're gonna catch up. That's not to say they'll mention everything to each other...this is WoT after all...but you've got to expect some sort of discourse about what you've been up to since you've seen each other last.

 

I actually think that RJ would not have made them more loquacious, had he never gotten sick. That whole "I'm gonna stuff everything into one book, no matter if it has to be published on bible thin paper!" thing was the act of a man wanting to finish his work in the time allotted. I believe had he not been sick, he'd have kept plugging away, adding books wherever he saw fit to do so. I guarantee you this would have been at least a 16-18 book series. To which, of course, most people groan to think about. As for me, as excited as I am to find out how it all ends, once I put down AMoL in March 2012, I'm going to be deeply, profoundly sad that there will be no more books.

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Sanderson seems incapable of understanding the taciturn nature of warriors in Randland, and refuses to attempt the trick of emoting by showing the nonverbal side of human communication, opting instead to take the easy way out and have these strong men say everything they're thinking and feeling.

 

While I don't share your level of frustration with it, this is what I was trying to say earlier. Instead of giving an action and an isolated thought here or there and then allowing the reader to infer how the character is changing, Sanderson feels the need to spell out in elaborate detail everything a character is thinking, and then, if that weren't enough, often back it up by having the character vocalize his thoughts. I don't know that it's lazy so much as it is vaguely insulting; as you say, anyone with half a brain should be able to figure out what's going on from RJ-type clues, and doesn't need Sanderson to explain it all.

 

A similar thing I noticed this book is how many times someone is described as "looking determined" or "looking frightened." That is lazy writing. Instead of saying someone drew back, or their face paled, or their jaw set, we skipped the action and went straight to the conclusion. It's frustrating, but Sanderson has a tough task and was under a tight deadline, so I don't want to be too hard on him.

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It's certainly plausible, that's not my point. I'm concerned that there were no clues to this whatever in the preceding books, AFAICS.

 

I reckon the ability to extract memories with the True Power was too much of a give away with respect to stuff RJ wanted as rabbits being pulled from hats. For example I think Moridin is Taim as Ive said all over the place; if we knew the True Power could get memories from someone we would have more of a hint at why "Taim" could be someone else and still remember what happened between Taim and Bashere at Irinjivar (sp?) like Taim says when he is introduced.

 

Plus, I think the fact that the Dark One used ravens and rats or whatever as spies-that in itself was a big hint that memories can be extracted, its just that it was mentioned too early on for us to make a connection. Half of the stuff from the early books gets dismissed on here.

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Sanderson seems incapable of understanding the taciturn nature of warriors in Randland, and refuses to attempt the trick of emoting by showing the nonverbal side of human communication, opting instead to take the easy way out and have these strong men say everything they're thinking and feeling.

 

While I don't share your level of frustration with it, this is what I was trying to say earlier. Instead of giving an action and an isolated thought here or there and then allowing the reader to infer how the character is changing, Sanderson feels the need to spell out in elaborate detail everything a character is thinking, and then, if that weren't enough, often back it up by having the character vocalize his thoughts. I don't know that it's lazy so much as it is vaguely insulting; as you say, anyone with half a brain should be able to figure out what's going on from RJ-type clues, and doesn't need Sanderson to explain it all.

 

A similar thing I noticed this book is how many times someone is described as "looking determined" or "looking frightened." That is lazy writing. Instead of saying someone drew back, or their face paled, or their jaw set, we skipped the action and went straight to the conclusion. It's frustrating, but Sanderson has a tough task and was under a tight deadline, so I don't want to be too hard on him.

 

No I don't wish to poop all over his head either, I agree. He accepted a very difficult job, and as much as I dislike the direction he's taken with RJ's characters, I will admit that the pacing of the action itself is quite well done. I actually enjoyed ToM quite a lot, but I feel like if I don't get some of this frustration off of my chest, it will eat me up inside. I actually wish that Harriet had hired Brandon to co-author with someone else, someone who could have written character to fill in Brandon's action scenes. That would have been about as close to the real thing as I think you could hope to get.

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LOL I'll say it. (While I'm not saying I disliked Jordan's views on the characters - because, they are, after all - his) I Really REALLY enjoy Brandon's writing style of all of the characters. Especially the Galad/Gawyn sections that I had to force myself to read in earlier books. Brandon gave Rand and co something new that I am really fond of. I'll admit it's a noticeable change in the characters' personalities, but I have no problems with it at all. I strongly believe he's done an amazing job and old RJ is smiling down on his work from heaven. Chilling up there with the creator and Asmo, who's been lawling at us for years.

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Also, FarShainMael, I thought Graendal's escape was absolutely ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Taking what could have been the most epic death scene EVER in the series followed close behind by Rahvin, and butchering it so badly. .

 

Absolutely!

 

And it wasn't as if she did very much afterwards. We can only hope that she's being saved up for TG. We'll have to RAFO.

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I think Jordan was getting lost in all the plots and characters and how detailed he wanted everything to be. I like Sanderson's pacing much better, although some things went super fast in this book. I'm much happier that the main characters are acting more like real people with Sanderson. The woman all seem to have slightly different personalities now. Same with the men too; I was getting tired of Rand, Mat, and Perrin constantly insisting that they had to protect women who were obviously a lot more powerful than themselves and how they always wanted to send the 'simple people' back to their farms away from the wars (when obviously everyone would be needed to fight the war against the shadow). All the main characters seem much more realistic now. Although, honestly except for Nynaeve (who is a ridiculous bitch but knows she's a ridiculous bitch) and Mat since he picked up the band, I've not liked any of the main characters ever. My thing is the secondary characters, who are nicely fleshed out and really interesting, such as Verin, or the minor characters who pop up from time to time.

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The thing that Sanderson did that threw me off the most was Tam. Not the way he wrote him, but the order in which he appears in the book. It's just really weird reading a character (even a minor one) not in a linear order. Bookwise, Tam is in both Perrin's and Rand's camp at the same time. I know RJ had his timelines all over the place, but I don't think he ever showed us a character out of order. Thanks to that, every time another character hooked onto a different story path, I had to think about where they were in the timing, too.

 

I also wasn't a fan of the way POVs were sliced up in chapters, and the POV that Sanderson used for scenes didn't always seem to be the best choice.

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The thing that Sanderson did that threw me off the most was Tam. Not the way he wrote him, but the order in which he appears in the book. It's just really weird reading a character (even a minor one) not in a linear order. Bookwise, Tam is in both Perrin's and Rand's camp at the same time.

 

An unfortunate side-effect of needing tGS to be a single set of stories where Tam was absolutely required for Rand's storyline, but there not being enough space to stick half of Perrin's story into tGS as well. It's jarring and did throw me out of the story a bit too, but there wasn't really a better way to piece the whole thing together. The Gathering Storm's integrity was simply more important than ToM's timeline placements.

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The thing Sanderson has taken the most liberty with is characters language. I can accept him not trying to mimic RJ, in the sense of pages of silk washing, or Elayne having a bath (all I can say on these, is this better be redeemed by them picking a damn fine looking actress and not censor the Elayne bath scenes in any tv-series / movie!), but using out of character words/phrases, this I don't like. Especially 20th/21st century terms. I can see Brandon may find it easier/quicker to write the story with these terms initially, so he's not second guessing himself and getting out of 'the groove', but they shouldn't make it past editing for the final cut.

 

God, I agree 100%. I have a huge beef with all authors working extensive modern vernacular into fantasy and sci-fi series. I'm surpsied Egwene didn't say something like "break the seals? Really Rand? Really?" You know, in that sarcastic, douchey way that's so popular right now. Bah!

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I kind of agree with the OP'r. But think about this:

 

As I was reading ToM, I couldn't help but imagine it the way RJ would have written it. I'm positive the last 2 novels would've been at least 3 if not 4 with RJ behind the pen. BS is basically writing for RJ, and he has to bring all the plot lines to one single point; Tarmon Gaidon. It's true that RJ left written scenes behind, including the ending. So, BS is seeing the characters at their full maturity level that RJ intended. BS has to chronicle the journey to that level.

 

I agree it seems a little forced, but BS is not RJ. No matter how much information RJ left, I highly doubt he left all the nuances and events that would clearly let us see the growth. Therefore, BS is left with; 'Here are the characters in KoD. Here are the characters in these scenes that RJ had written. Make them match and do it in 3 books.' I know that seems pretty cut and dried, and I'm sure there's more to it than that but I believe that's the basic gist of the matter. And BS has done well. I highly doubt there's anyone who can point to the sections that RJ wrote and be %100 positive and accurate that he wrote them.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling now lol. I guess my point is that there are bound to be hiccups and that most of us are emotionally tied to the characters after reading the series for so many years, so we'll notice the little differences. But in the end, BS does pass everything through Harriet and Maria, and that makes me feel a whole lot better about it. :)

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Meh, there's definitely been a change in the reasonability respect, but impossible to say if that was RJ's intention or BWS's doing.

 

The biggest difference, IMO, is that RJ wrote for a more adult audience. Not to put words in Sid's mouth, but I think this is what he meant by "hand-holding." Where RJ made us infer, BWS spells things out in (often excruciating) detail, and Sanderson's humor is a little more juvenile. That said, Sanderson has done an admirable job with a very difficult task, and we should all be infinitely grateful to him for finishing the series.

You are correct, that is exactly what I meant. I have not read all of RJ's books under his pen-names, but I don't know of any that were meant mainly for the juvenile demographic. Sanderson apparently has, though I have not read them. He may be afraid to tread on that fine line that RJ lived on, the perfect times to spell things out and when to give readers just enough to remember for themselves.

 

Also, 'admirable' is a very appropriate description of BWS's efforts so far.

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Also, FarShainMael, I thought Graendal's escape was absolutely ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Taking what could have been the most epic death scene EVER in the series followed close behind by Rahvin, and butchering it so badly. .

 

Absolutely!

 

And it wasn't as if she did very much afterwards. We can only hope that she's being saved up for TG. We'll have to RAFO.

I did seem a little Dues ex Machina to me. I was on the fence of the tGS "Did she of didn't she die" debate and what happened is about what I thought would be if Grendal had lived. And you're right about the "no bird tweeting" example. There was no indication whatsoever before or after the fact that she survived. There were always those type of clues before so that 4 books later you would say, "wait a minute" go back and look at what in hindsight was a glaring message saying, "what you thought happened didn't happen."

 

It was just plum left out.

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God, I agree 100%. I have a huge beef with all authors working extensive modern vernacular into fantasy and sci-fi series. I'm surpsied Egwene didn't say something like "break the seals? Really Rand? Really?" You know, in that sarcastic, douchey way that's so popular right now. Bah!

Oddly enough, the two times that 'played' showed up in a modern way (Graendal in the Prologue and Elayne speaking with Norry) I actually said "Really?" out loud.

'Played for a fool' would have been over nine thousand times better IMO.

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I highly doubt there's anyone who can point to the sections that RJ wrote and be %100 positive and accurate that he wrote them.

 

 

While you may be right about not being able to tell which chapters RJ wrote there is a way to tell which one BS wrote, IMO. Any chapter that has two back to back paragraphs of dialogue from the same character, is an BS chapter. RJ rarely had a character give a long exposition without splitting the dialogue by a introspective paragraph or descriptive paragraph. Maybe I'm different but I think I can tell the difference between the two writing styles when I read the chapters.

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I highly doubt there's anyone who can point to the sections that RJ wrote and be %100 positive and accurate that he wrote them.

 

 

While you may be right about not being able to tell which chapters RJ wrote there is a way to tell which one BS wrote, IMO. Any chapter that has two back to back paragraphs of dialogue from the same character, is an BS chapter. RJ rarely had a character give a long exposition without splitting the dialogue by a introspective paragraph or descriptive paragraph. Maybe I'm different but I think I can tell the difference between the two writing styles when I read the chapters.

 

 

Agreed. But can you really say definitively without a doubt that something wasn't written by RJ? I hope you can't lol. I know me just being able to imagine a shadowy impression of they way RJ may have written things is painful. If you can positively tell the difference, I feel sorry for you :( I promise I'm not trying to be mocking or a smartass. My entire point though, was that what may seem like liberties may actually be the only options possible with the guidelines BS is working under.

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Agreed. But can you really say definitively without a doubt that something wasn't written by RJ? I hope you can't lol. I know me just being able to imagine a shadowy impression of they way RJ may have written things is painful. If you can positively tell the difference, I feel sorry for you :( I promise I'm not trying to be mocking or a smartass. My entire point though, was that what may seem like liberties may actually be the only options possible with the guidelines BS is working under.

 

I mean, I can't say 100% positive without interviewing BS, but it sticks out to me. Don't feel bad for me, I am a dumbass most of the time :). I still enjoyed both books (I guess I should say so far for ToM). It doesn't detract any from my enjoyment of the books, just something that I have noticed and thought was appropriate to the comment you made earlier. You can tell by the post count I am fairly new here and don't wanna upset long standing forum members.

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Agreed. But can you really say definitively without a doubt that something wasn't written by RJ? I hope you can't lol. I know me just being able to imagine a shadowy impression of they way RJ may have written things is painful. If you can positively tell the difference, I feel sorry for you :( I promise I'm not trying to be mocking or a smartass. My entire point though, was that what may seem like liberties may actually be the only options possible with the guidelines BS is working under.

 

I mean, I can't say 100% positive without interviewing BS, but it sticks out to me. Don't feel bad for me, I am a dumbass most of the time :). I still enjoyed both books (I guess I should say so far for ToM). It doesn't detract any from my enjoyment of the books, just something that I have noticed and thought was appropriate to the comment you made earlier. You can tell by the post count I am fairly new here and don't wanna upset long standing forum members.

 

Lol, I'm fairly new myself! :) The only question I have is why are you posting when you should be reading!?!? XD

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Lol, I'm fairly new myself! :) The only question I have is why are you posting when you should be reading!?!? XD

 

I wish I could get paid for reading, lol. Unfortunately, bills add up and slow Fridays make for much forum browsing. :biggrin:

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I was fed up with Egwene being changed beyond recognition she was one of my favourite characters in the whole of series and supposed to be an expert in TaR and in that scene with Perrin in the WT she acted surprised he could stop balefire??

She thought to herself that she wasn't so much surprised

by what he'd done as she was surprised that it was him.

 

 

Is that why she said to Perrin "How did you do that? Nothing stops Balefire!" (yeah in the real world not in TaR)

Egwene was consistently told by the Wise Ones that using the OP in the dream wasn't neccessary that Thought was quicker than she can channel. Wasn't she punished for not getting that right? Besides not all Dreamwalkers could channel in real world.

 

That's what I meant by inconsistent.

Seeing Perrin caught her off guard. After she thought about it a bit, she realized that what he did made perfect sense. She was just shocked to see him there, and even more shocked to see him showing more skill in the Dream than she herself possesses.

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I personally thought the first BT scene with Androl was largely influenced by RJ. Just the way Androl acted sort of made me think you know? But I'm not really sure about any of the chapters.

 

It doesn't really feel like an RJ book... but at the same time, it sort of does, enough for me to read it anyway.

 

I love what Mat's character has become. But I am a little upset with all the ridiculous stuff, particularly Graendel and then the bloodknives scene. I thought that was over the top. But I guess RJ always did have trouble keeping people dead...

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Do my eyes deceive me or are people actually complaining about character development? Progress in people? One of the greatest criticisms of characters I have ever heard from readers is that the characters do not talk to each other.. well now they are. And with only one book to go, it's somehow wrong for them to be doing so?

 

 

I'll agree with you on that. For the most part, the character development has been favorable, especially in the case of Galad. I have an appreciation for swordmasters, as I am a student of the blade myself, so I've always had a soft spot for the character, even though he was irritatingly...Whitecloak. It is good that he has a more open mind now. Most of the main characters have matured, except Egwene, who has actually gone more to the dark side, so to speak. Tuon is still annoying too, for her inability to see that things must change, and that traditions cannot last forever. She still refuses to let nations run things as they will, instead insisting that all nations must bow to the empire. I suppose that's the way of empires, though.

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