Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Verin's Letters

Recommended Posts

But, didn't Verin have other letters with the Red Seal as well? There wasn't even a hint of them in the novel...

 

What about the letter with a red seal handed to rand by the AS (whose name I don't recall) when he went to see Egwene who said she never expected him to actually show up.

 

 

He mentions the letter later on in the book as well, after Cadsuane brings the Domani King (can't remember his name) back to Tear Rand explains that "in a letter from a friend" the White Tower was holding the original King of Illian. So I'm assuming that the letter was from Verin, and would potentially have included more information.

 

(I believe it was Tiana who gave him the letter, by the way).

 

 

My thoughts:

 

First off, didn't Elaida have a foretelling that Andor or Cam would be the key to the last battle? I had started thinking it was about those dragons but then the end came. Now I think they will have to retake it and win a very important victory or basically it will become the epicenter of the fight and their win will require them to take it, thus it being the key.

 

Think the foretelling was related directly to the Lion throne and not Andor/Caemlyn itself - that Elayne and perhaps Gawyn/Galad (Certainly they have done important things but whether or not they would have been part of the foretelling I'm not certain) would be the key to the last battle. Although it does seem that with Caemlyn having the Dragons and the Black Tower's proximity that it has to be one of the remaining key areas.

 

 

From the FAQ (emphasis mine):

"The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne...."

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1

 

This is usually taken to refer to Tigraine - Rand's mother - as the royal line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But, didn't Verin have other letters with the Red Seal as well? There wasn't even a hint of them in the novel...

 

What about the letter with a red seal handed to rand by the AS (whose name I don't recall) when he went to see Egwene who said she never expected him to actually show up.

 

 

He mentions the letter later on in the book as well, after Cadsuane brings the Domani King (can't remember his name) back to Tear Rand explains that "in a letter from a friend" the White Tower was holding the original King of Illian. So I'm assuming that the letter was from Verin, and would potentially have included more information.

 

(I believe it was Tiana who gave him the letter, by the way).

 

 

My thoughts:

 

First off, didn't Elaida have a foretelling that Andor or Cam would be the key to the last battle? I had started thinking it was about those dragons but then the end came. Now I think they will have to retake it and win a very important victory or basically it will become the epicenter of the fight and their win will require them to take it, thus it being the key.

 

Think the foretelling was related directly to the Lion throne and not Andor/Caemlyn itself - that Elayne and perhaps Gawyn/Galad (Certainly they have done important things but whether or not they would have been part of the foretelling I'm not certain) would be the key to the last battle. Although it does seem that with Caemlyn having the Dragons and the Black Tower's proximity that it has to be one of the remaining key areas.

 

 

From the FAQ (emphasis mine):

"The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne...."

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1

 

This is usually taken to refer to Tigraine - Rand's mother - as the royal line.

 

The Royal Line could mean any number of folks: Rand (obviously), Gawyn, Galad, Elayne, Rand & Elayne's children (probably not them... too young/not born). Could even mean Luc, if you really want to stretch plausibility. But almost certainly Rand.

 

Another question I have is this: Aviendah's 2nd trip through the columns reveals her [people's] future, in which Camelyn (and by presumed extention, Andor) is still intact. Therefore the shadow's attack there *can't* succeed. Unless her whole experience there is some sort of weird mind-bending acid trip brought about by her mysterious visitor while on her way to Ruidion (sp). (Did anyone else find that encounter odd?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The Royal Line could mean any number of folks: Rand (obviously), Gawyn, Galad, Elayne, Rand & Elayne's children (probably not them... too young/not born). Could even mean Luc, if you really want to stretch plausibility. But almost certainly Rand.

 

Another question I have is this: Aviendah's 2nd trip through the columns reveals her [people's] future, in which Camelyn (and by presumed extention, Andor) is still intact. Therefore the shadow's attack there *can't* succeed. Unless her whole experience there is some sort of weird mind-bending acid trip brought about by her mysterious visitor while on her way to Ruidion (sp). (Did anyone else find that encounter odd?)

 

Nah, the columns didn't really tell her that Caemlyn was not destroyed during the attack, because they could have easily rebuilt the city in one generation's time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the light of Mat's letter, One does have to wonder about all the other red sealed letters we saw branding about in the book, like what in the one that was given to Rand when he went to the WT, what was in Allana's letter that made her flee Tear? I do have to agree that what the hell with Oliver, budding sociopath is a little to light in what we see there, when did he get tainted?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the light of Mat's letter, One does have to wonder about all the other red sealed letters we saw branding about in the book, like what in the one that was given to Rand when he went to the WT, what was in Allana's letter that made her flee Tear? I do have to agree that what the hell with Oliver, budding sociopath is a little to light in what we see there, when did he get tainted?

 

I am not sure where you guys are getting the "Olver is a sociopath" idea. Just because he wants revenge on who killed his father? By that logic, every major Light-side character in the book would be a sociopath. Perrin for wanting to kill Slayer on behalf of Hopper; Rand killing Rahvin on behalf of Morgase; Mat killing the gohlem on behalf of Tylin. This list goes on and on. I thought Olver was acting like a pretty typical kid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think that Olver was acting like a typical child would. Saying that he would leave Mat out of his great adventure is something that any kid would do. One of everybody's first instincts is revenge. Not rediculous that he wants revenge for his father's death. I think it shows that he is older in mind than he is in body for it. He should probably be watched a little closer as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the light of Mat's letter, One does have to wonder about all the other red sealed letters we saw branding about in the book, like what in the one that was given to Rand when he went to the WT, what was in Allana's letter that made her flee Tear? I do have to agree that what the hell with Oliver, budding sociopath is a little to light in what we see there, when did he get tainted?

 

The Red Letters were just a collection of loose ends, Darkfriend plots, and whatnot that Verin left for people in case she was forced to kill herself to reveal the Black Ajah. There isn't an overall pattern to them, except that they all contain things Verin thinks is vital/useful.

 

Rand's letter almost definitely concerned Mattin Stepaneos being held in the Tower.

 

Alanna's letter was probably about the imminent shadowspawn invasion of the borderlands. Alanna, being Green Ajah and from Arafel, is a good choice for such a warning.

 

I'm very curious what was in Galad's letter, though. Perhaps something about Slayer (Luc is Galad's uncle), DFs among the Whitecloaks. It looks like he got it from someone in Caemlyn about the same time Mat snuck through to catch badgers.

 

(I agree with others; Olver was just acting like a 10-year-old who has had much sorrow in his life.)

 

-- dwn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few things about the thread. Some are saying that Verin was stupid in not just telling Egwene about the attack. The only thing I can see is that Verin is a delegator, each job given to someone who can handle it and put the info to most use. Egwene's job was to defeat the black ajah, it's damn important and nothing could be told to her to distract her from that goal. The thing I think was stupid was giving the note to Mat and not Elayne, but then again that could have been because of the taver'en pulling her to the spot where she met him, she knew she had to give it to him and his army.

 

I also want to know what Galad's letter says. Seems kind of interesting that some of probably the most important info the Lord Captain Commander of the children will receive comes to him from an aes sedai sworn to the dark.

 

As far as Olver goes, I can't blame him. He wants was left scared and alone, the only family he had known was slaughtered.... can you really blame him for never wanting to feel that helpless again? I'm kind of hoping he ends up stabbing a forsaken.

 

Alanna's letter has me curious too, is there something major going down in arafel besides the attack?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't find Olver creepy, just immature. I find some of the comments here creepy, in how quick they are to pass judgment on children assuming everything is a sign of a horrible problem. Sheesh. They sound like Whitecloaks hunting Darkfriends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About Olver~

there is an overwhelming presence in the series of people being underestimated because of age/power/presumed maturity.

 

In EoTW, Moiraine comments to Nynaeve that, even hearing that the Wisdom of Emond's Field was young, she expected a woman much older than Nynaeve.

 

When Dyelin brings the young High Seats to swear for Elayne, Elayne has the thought at one point "A child who is High Seat cannot remain a Child for long."

Gawyn's troop of soldiers is filled with young men, the Younglings, all of whom were 'too young' to have seen many battles, yet all of whom fought, brilliantly.

 

In TGS Siuan Sanche has a thought that her 'lessened power' is freeing because people now underestimate her political skill and manipulative saavy.

 

Olver goes through the same thing. People underestimate his intelligence and maturity. Yes, he's young. And Mat's surrogate son. But, Olver has lost both parents and is growing up in a time where the Dragon Reborn is alive and rampaging in the world.

 

 

Yet now, the Amyrlin Seat [and her warder], Lord Captain Commander of the Children of Light, and the Queen of Andor and Cairhein, [And, well, the Empress of the Seanchan], all very powerful positions are all held by young people.

The oldest of these, Galad, is what, 10 years older than the rest of the group? But, he is still VERY YOUNG to be LCC Of the CoL. LIke the role of the Pope in the Roman Catholic Church, you expect the LCC to be an older gentleman, with years of experience and leadership behind him.

 

Olver may be young not exactly a child.

 

 

Now, on to Verin's letter.

 

What I think (And I know some disagree based on what ya'll said in this thread) is that Verin could not tell Mat that he had to open the letter, because the letter contained information that would counter the Great Lord's plans.

Telling him he had to open the letter, this being before the last hour of her life, would be considered a betrayal to the Great Lord.

by leaving that OPTION for him to open it, would not be betrayal.

Had she returned and released him from the oath, the betrayal part would not have mattered.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Verin could also have so easily given the letter to Mat and asked him to deliver it to Elayne within the same time scale. An oath that if she hadn't returned by this time he had to hand the Letter to Elayne on her behalf that way he is still heading in the right direction and Camelyn would not be burning as Elayne would have gotten the important info needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I admit I was a bit disappointed about the contents of the letter. However, if Mat simply had given the letter to Elayne I think her previous dealings with BA would make her very suspicious and it would not have the desired effect. She doesn't believe she can really convince anyone else of the severity of the situation.

-> But Verin knows that Mat is Ta'veren and with his oath to do what the letter says she thinks he can convince Elayne.

 

Anyway I think that this "has" to pass in order to unite all the mercenary bands camped outside camelyn under the Band of the Red Hand. Its gonna grow big baddas.

 

Concerning Olver I think that part was awesomly written. That is exactly how I would imagine a boy his age and with his experiences would think. It is heart-wrenching but true. Kudos!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Uh, I can't speak for anyone else, but I was kinda joking about Olver being creepy; didn't realize it would produce such a reaction. I don't think it's off at all for him to want revenge for his father's death. The tone of his POV was just kind of funny, that's all. Didn't mean it literally, really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bit disappointed with Verin' letter also. I was imagining something grander... don't know, like wiping out clean Randland of the forsaken or something alongside this. But anyway, this is the fate of Andor that is at stake. However, what really is bugging me, is why on Earth (Randland?) would Verin ask Mat to wait such a long time before opening it??

 

I didn't track the timelines, but she mentions in the letter that she should have been back a day later had she ever been back, so what the point in making him wait for so long, for after the invasion has moved into action? She seemed to count on his curiosity, which she has obviously badly misjudged. But that is a mistake that doesn't match with Verin. So why???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm more interested in the letter that Rand was given in the White Tower.

 

Bet someone $100 it's from Verin.

 

A lot of people seem to have forgotten about it and I haven't seen anybody mention it so far

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm more interested in the letter that Rand was given in the White Tower.

 

Bet someone $100 it's from Verin.

 

A lot of people seem to have forgotten about it and I haven't seen anybody mention it so far

 

Rand's letter has been mentioned on several threads, including this one. It likely concerned Mattin Stepaneos being held in the White Tower.

 

-- dwn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think 2 things contributed to Mat not opening the letter like Verin hoped he would.

 

1)She underestimated not his curiosity but his aversion to Aes Sedai. Especially being told he HAS to complete said task if he chooses to open it. I mean to Mat this would seem like them trying to tie strings around him.

 

2)Mat had already made the decision to head to ToG and probably figured the contents of the letter would delay that trip.

 

After some thought on this the question I have is this. Was the decision Mat made between going to ToG and opening the letter from Verin the fulfillment of Egwene's dream of Mat weighing 2 Aes Sedai on a balance scale?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After some thought on this the question I have is this. Was the decision Mat made between going to ToG and opening the letter from Verin the fulfillment of Egwene's dream of Mat weighing 2 Aes Sedai on a balance scale?

It certainly fits. Per Egwene's viewing "On his decision depended something vast, the world perhaps" and per the Aelfinn's answer "to give up half the light of the world to save the world" indicates that he made the correct choice, even though Caemlyn is afire right now.

Edited by Sid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering...did anyone notice that Galad also received a letter (pg. 659, the chapter in which his mother was married)? Not to mention his half-brother did as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After some thought on this the question I have is this. Was the decision Mat made between going to ToG and opening the letter from Verin the fulfillment of Egwene's dream of Mat weighing 2 Aes Sedai on a balance scale?

It certainly fits. Per Egwene's viewing "On his decision depended something vast, the world perhaps" and per the Aelfinn's answer "to give up half the light of the world to save the world" indicates that he made the correct choice, even though Caemlyn is afire right now.

 

Taking care of that Waygate may indeed have delayed his trip. Frankly Verin should have just told him that the waygate needed to be permanently closed and could he go and please do that. She should have remembered that the Two Rivers men were stubborn enough to give rocks lessons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Verin miscalculated. That's understandable-everyone makes mistakes. The odd part was that she felt she needed to be calculating in the first place: Mat isn't crazy, and she doesn't need to manipulate him to get him to do the right thing! Aes Sedai schemes become a way of life I guess, and she was too much in the habit of tricking everyone into acting that she forgot that sometimes honesty actually works better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Verin miscalculated. That's understandable-everyone makes mistakes. The odd part was that she felt she needed to be calculating in the first place: Mat isn't crazy, and she doesn't need to manipulate him to get him to do the right thing! Aes Sedai schemes become a way of life I guess, and she was too much in the habit of tricking everyone into acting that she forgot that sometimes honesty actually works better.

 

Eh. Mat's completely unreasonable when it comes to the One Power and being tied up in Aes Sedai plots. She might have thought that he would resist even more if she'd told him.

 

OTOH, and this just occurred to me, maybe one of Verin's oaths that she swore on becoming Black Ajah was that she couldn't tell anybody about the plots and designs of the Dark One, and she interpreted this to mean she couldn't speak them. Thus all the letters, and since she wasn't ready to die yet (she still had to go talk to Egwene), that's why she wrote the letter to Mat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OTOH, and this just occurred to me, maybe one of Verin's oaths that she swore on becoming Black Ajah was that she couldn't tell anybody about the plots and designs of the Dark One, and she interpreted this to mean she couldn't speak them. Thus all the letters, and since she wasn't ready to die yet (she still had to go talk to Egwene), that's why she wrote the letter to Mat.

 

There's no maybe about it. She cannot betray the Shadow's plans until the hour of her death.

 

I posted an article on the Thirteenth Depository this weekend on Verin's letters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted an article on the Thirteenth Depository this weekend on Verin's letters.

Your blog is amazing. I enjoy reading it immensely. It's extremely easy to lose track of time while poking around on there :happy: Can't wait for more ToM updates!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...