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Nakomi

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That's nice, but if you're going to make an argument you shouldn't make stuff up to support it.

I'm not sure to what you're referring. What I actually said was:

  • I can't recall any example of Verin assuming a role (using an alias doesn't qualify. That's hiding, not playing a role) and engaging in seemingly idle conversation in an effort to help someone reach an epiphany.
  • That all we know about her interactions with the Aiel is that she once talked with a WO. From that, no one in his right mind would deduce she might be aware of any functionality of the columns ter'angreal not generally known. It's already a stretch that a WO would talk about Rhuidean, but even if one would, we had no idea it could do what Aviendha made it do. How could anyone know that, never mind that someone being Verin?
  • And if she was aware of the grim future awaiting the Aiel in some other fashion, we certainly saw no indication of that as well (foretelling is the only method we know of for someone to know any part of the future not relating to themselves, perhaps excepting the 'Finn, but three questions don't seem enough to learn anything real about it, and why should she ask to begin with? We've heard nothing about the future of the Aiel except that a remnant would survive).
  • These last two points are why I used the term deus ex machina, and I stand by that still. If you want to suggest Verin, you have to reasonably explain her motivations for making Aviendha consider the future of the Aiel, and then explain how she would come to know what she needs in order to decide upon that course of action. I don't believe that you have.

Now, what part of that is made up?

Edited by yoniy0

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That's nice, but if you're going to make an argument you shouldn't make stuff up to support it.

I'm not sure to what you're referring.

 

To the argument I was addressing in the first place, obviously.

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Hmm, still not exactly clear on that. Do you object to the notion of her having to be omniscient or omnipotent in order to do what she (supposedly) did? Obviously, she needn't be; I think BenevolentCow was just exaggerating for dramatic effect.

 

What catches my eye most about that scene is the way Aviendha just disregarded her suspicion of Nakomi, preferring an absurdly naive explanation for how she appeared and behaved. She was completely disarmed for some reason. The only similar thing I can think of is the way Lanfear made Perrin accept the axe in his dream (was it his dream?) or the way she (presumably) made Egwene accept Silvie. Or, perhaps, the way one integrates one's simulated life in the Acceptatron.

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What catches my eye most about that scene is the way Aviendha just disregarded her suspicion of Nakomi, preferring an absurdly naive explanation for how she appeared and behaved. She was completely disarmed for some reason. The only similar thing I can think of is the way Lanfear made Perrin accept the axe in his dream (was it his dream?) or the way she (presumably) made Egwene accept Silvie. Or, perhaps, the way one integrates one's simulated life in the Acceptatron.

 

I just reread the Nakomi part a couple of days ago, and this is something that really stuck out for me. My first thought was that there MUST be Compulsion involved, completely forgot about those incidents you mentioned and the way people just accept things in the Accepted/Aes Sedai trials. Very intriguing...

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Nakomi is not Verin. It doesn't pass the muster test of...Why? Why would it be Verin? Also (and this goes along with why it wasn't a Forsaken) there was nothing malevolent about the meeting. Nothing. In every section that Verin had a substantial role, there was something slightly off - something that hinted at her being Black Ajah. It just wasn't there in this section.

 

It wasn't a portal stone. She would recognize one from the one she saw in Tear and the one above Rhuidean.

 

Avi was in TAR. Maybe she was pulled in by Wise Ones or maybe found her own way in (but I don't think her a Dreamer). Nakomi just appearing, extra coals in the fire, food cooking quite fast and being exquisite, and finally Nakomi and all over her belongings disappearing without alarming Avi.

 

I don't believe that Nakomi is real. Since Avi was in TAR and the Wise Ones were questioning her on the Aiel's future and purpose before she left to visit Rhuidean, I think that Nakomi may be a projection of Avi's and the Aiel's Need. They Need something, but they don't know the questions to ask or the answers to seek. We have seen Need work before in TAR, in not necessarily in the form of a person. Nakomi didn't really say anything other than what Avi and the Wise One's have been contemplating. A need for a purpose after their toh is met.

 

Or if Nakomi was real (IE Avi was pulled in by a Wise One Dreamer), then it was to set her on the course of unlocking the future function of the crystal columns. Why would the WO's do this...well, we do not know much about their prophecies, nor do we see much of their interpretations of Dreams. Perhaps the Wise One's have Dreamed this, or perhaps there is a prophecy known only to a few such as what we saw with the Borderlanders.

 

Avi's ter'angreal talent shows her not only what the object can do, but also HOW to use it. If I remember correctly, she figured out how to use the statue of the man that held an entire library of books from the AoL. Her talent allowed her to access a function of the crystal columns that was not used prior.

 

The future is not set. By showing her the future, the pattern is allowing her to change it. Forcing her to change it.

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Nakomi is not Verin. It doesn't pass the muster test of...Why? Why would it be Verin?

 

Because a lot of things Sanderson does are about fan gratification. It really, genuinely, could be as simple as him knowing fans would love a Verin cameo.

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Nakomi is not Verin. It doesn't pass the muster test of...Why? Why would it be Verin? Also (and this goes along with why it wasn't a Forsaken) there was nothing malevolent about the meeting. Nothing. In every section that Verin had a substantial role, there was something slightly off - something that hinted at her being Black Ajah. It just wasn't there in this section.

 

Assuming Nakomi has any inkling of the path she's setting Aviendha on, this is plenty of evidence for why Verin would do it, at least for me:

 

"If we are distracted, it is because we look forward, toward those who will come." and "We all seek to change the future, Egwene. I think I might just have a chance at doing so"

 

 

Her being "slightly off" was as much for us as readers as it was for the characters. The Nakomi scene was after we knew Verin's story. There was no need to make her "off" anymore, it was done and solved. Besides, it was off enough that she was there at all.

Edited by Deadsy

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My objection with Verin is still that there is no evidence that it was her other than 'well, she was black and has been doing all sorts of things'. There are hundreds of things that Verin could of done over the series that weren't done by her. I believe that if the reveal had of been done in any book, you would find a loud portion of the fanbase proclaiming that anything odd that happened in that book was Verin.

 

If you take out the reveal, no one would suspect it was Verin for any reason. From what we know of her, she was entirely concerned with the Shadow and the AS. Yes she worked with the Wise Ones, but only with regards to the AS. She pretended to be absent minded sure, but to believe that she could know absolutely everything and have her fingers in every honey pot in the world is rediculous. Moiraine had to dedicate her whole life to finding the Dragon Reborn, Cadsuane had to dedicate all of her time to teaching Rand how to be a real boy. To believe that Verin could somehow find out everything she did about the Black and the Shadow's plans and what the non-Black AS were doing and what the Dragon needed to do and still have time to mess around with the Aiel is to diminish the accomplishments of every other character.

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My objection with Verin is still that there is no evidence that it was her other than 'well, she was black and has been doing all sorts of things'.

 

Yes, that's all. If you ignore the fact that her mannerisms scream Verin. "I've let myself ramble again. I am prone to it, I fear." is like being hit over the head by a sledgehammer. It's either Verin or we were meant to think it's Verin.

 

To believe that Verin could somehow find out everything she did about the Black and the Shadow's plans and what the non-Black AS were doing and what the Dragon needed to do and still have time to mess around with the Aiel is to diminish the accomplishments of every other character.

 

How do you know it isn't part of the shadow's plans? Cadsuane is always thinking to herself about the world after the Last Battle and how Rand's victory might actually be just as bad. Moridin especially is in this for the long haul and will have a back up plan. This isn't just "messing around" with the Aiel. If this future comes to pass the White Tower is gone and likely all channelers are collared. I'm not saying Verin would know this entire plan, but if she had any clue that the shadow wants the Aiel to remain a warrior society, then she would want the opposite to happen.

Edited by Deadsy

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Another excellent reason to think it is Verin is the themaitc parallels. Verin's role is all about guidance. Her entire story arc is about guiding people when they have tough choices to make. She made the best out of being given an extremely difficult choice. She was there when Rand was guided into making a choice to go with Mat to get back the Horn (and compulsion was used there...). She refers to Perrin making a choice between the axe and the hammer. She guides the Aes Sedai into confronting Rand. She guides the captive AS into swaring fealty. She guides Rand towards Cadsuane. She arms Egwene with knowledge so she can make the best descision about the BA... If Verin is a HotH, this would be her archetype. To provide guidance when critical choices need to be made. And that is precisely what Nakomi did for Aviendha.

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My objection with Verin is still that there is no evidence that it was her other than 'well, she was black and has been doing all sorts of things'. There are hundreds of things that Verin could of done over the series that weren't done by her. I believe that if the reveal had of been done in any book, you would find a loud portion of the fanbase proclaiming that anything odd that happened in that book was Verin.

 

If you take out the reveal, no one would suspect it was Verin for any reason. From what we know of her, she was entirely concerned with the Shadow and the AS. Yes she worked with the Wise Ones, but only with regards to the AS. She pretended to be absent minded sure, but to believe that she could know absolutely everything and have her fingers in every honey pot in the world is rediculous. Moiraine had to dedicate her whole life to finding the Dragon Reborn, Cadsuane had to dedicate all of her time to teaching Rand how to be a real boy. To believe that Verin could somehow find out everything she did about the Black and the Shadow's plans and what the non-Black AS were doing and what the Dragon needed to do and still have time to mess around with the Aiel is to diminish the accomplishments of every other character.

 

So Rand is now Pinnochio! lol, on a side note, I don't remembe the whole Nakomi section, I want to go reread it now...

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Another excellent reason to think it is Verin is the themaitc parallels. Verin's role is all about guidance. Her entire story arc is about guiding people when they have tough choices to make. She made the best out of being given an extremely difficult choice. She was there when Rand was guided into making a choice to go with Mat to get back the Horn (and compulsion was used there...). She refers to Perrin making a choice between the axe and the hammer. She guides the Aes Sedai into confronting Rand. She guides the captive AS into swaring fealty. She guides Rand towards Cadsuane. She arms Egwene with knowledge so she can make the best descision about the BA... If Verin is a HotH, this would be her archetype. To provide guidance when critical choices need to be made. And that is precisely what Nakomi did for Aviendha.

yar are we ever going to get a post that make sense for a change? how did you ever came up with this preposterous idea in first place? Do we have any textual evidence? was thr any foreshadowing? Please answer each of these questions with a yes or no thank you

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yar are we ever going to get a post that make sense for a change? how did you ever came up with this preposterous idea in first place? Do we have any textual evidence? was thr any foreshadowing? Please answer each of these questions with a yes or no thank you

Trolls never go away, it seems.

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Easy, the both of you.

fionwe1987, you did leave quite a lot of that unexplained. How is her life decisions themselves about guiding others? Do you propose that she used Compulsion on anyone in Fal Dara, let alone Rand? What was her interest in Perrin's axe? Why did she take Merana's authority from her in that exact moment? What connection did she have with the AS swearing to Rand (beside going along for the ride)? How is what she told Rand in Far Madding different from what any sister would say? And did she in fact guide Egwene (I seem to recall Egwene decided on her own on a course of action, and that being the way Verin preferred)?

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Well, she did use compulsion on Elza and co. to make them serve Rand. Although perhaps compulsion was only used on the Blacks, I can't remember exactly.

 

She did influence Merana and co. but it is much the same as any AS would, I would say. They are all fond of guiding people sneakily.

 

Egwene/Black Ajah is diffuclt to decide, while it is definitely not a plan Verin would make, it would be something I could see Verin guiding someone else towards. The idea had to come from Egwene, else it would alert the Black Ajah to her betrayal. If the Black knew about this, they would almost certainly foucs on killing Egwene (more than they already want to, I suppose) The knowledge could be ended at the source. However, this way it just seems like a nice plan to test every AS. It makes a difference, that Egwene knows who the Blacks are that are still alive, or were absent from the Tower/Rebels. This way she can check their moves or send for them to be killed or taken, while they suspect nothing. THAT is something Verin would think of.

 

No idea about this Compulsion on Rand or others at Fal Dara, was it meant as compulsion (without capitals?)

 

A lot of these events are exactly what any Aes Sedai (or Wise One) would do, just that we see Verin do it a lot better than others we see.

 

Having said that, I still agree that it is Verin, for various reasons already posted through the thread, dead or alive at the time, either way is fine, as a HotH or just in TAR/using MoM.

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Barid, I hope it was clear I wasn't contesting that Verin knew and used a Compulsion-like weave (as we've seen her do in the tents, and as I personally believe she did to Alanna just after Rand left them, when he was Bonded); just that she did it in Fal Dara, to help him along the way to going with Mat (that one was as easy as telling him Mat would otherwise die).

 

Regarding Egwene, Verin pointedly told her that she didn't have a clear idea of which was better, uprooting the Black or following them to learn more of their plans, and that she'd leave that decision to Egwene. I don't see how that could be considered 'guiding'; It was simply 'helping', in whatever Egwene decided to do.

 

And, since you have, let me say again that I don't believe it was Verin. Not our Verin, anyways (I have a harder time arguing with what Luckers said about audience-gratification). I also highly doubt that Aviendha wouldn't have known if she'd been pulled into tel'aran'rhiod.

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No, I wasn't doubting the fact you knew about Verin using Compulsion-like technique.

 

I was using it for the question of guiding the Aes Sedai to swear fealty to Rand, when she compels Elza and questions others etc.. Not sure if this is the event that was being referenced, or the Rebel AS swearing, in which case, that was nothing to do with Verin, it had more to do with a insanely angry Rand, Mazrim Taim and a few hundred Asha'man.

 

I also doubted the compulsion in Fal Dara, I don't remember anything that suggests this, apart from the fact Verin knows how to do it.

 

Re: Egwene, I agree with that reasoning, however, just because Verin says she doesn't know what is the best way, doesn't necessarily mean she wasn't guiding Egwene. However, I have not read the passage for a while, so I can't say if this happened or not.

 

Re last paragraph: No problem, while I am partial to the Verin theory, I think there is equal chance of it being wrong as well.

 

I am not sure about Avi though. From recollection, she doesn't have much to do with TAR, I don't think that she would notice, specially if that person is skilled in TAR, I would say you could make the person think everything was normal, which is strange, as was pointed out earlier, that Avi wasn't suspicious.

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Wow, you're right, it never even occurred to me that fionwe wasn't talking about Dumai's Wells, but obviously I was wrong.

 

As to Aviendha and TAR, she was there enough times, on meetings. She was even spying on Rand's dreams with the WO (though she hasn't enough Talent to do that without their aid), which makes it more likely that they've shown her a little of TAR as well.

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Hmm, I will have to pay more attention, I forgot about Aviendha and being in TAR, I can't really say either way with any certainty. I am reminded of the Dreams and Accepted Test etc.. where people are made to believe it is normal, but if this is possible in this case, I don't know.

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Nakomi is not Verin. It doesn't pass the muster test of...Why? Why would it be Verin? Also (and this goes along with why it wasn't a Forsaken) there was nothing malevolent about the meeting. Nothing. In every section that Verin had a substantial role, there was something slightly off - something that hinted at her being Black Ajah. It just wasn't there in this section.

 

It wasn't a portal stone. She would recognize one from the one she saw in Tear and the one above Rhuidean.

 

Avi was in TAR. Maybe she was pulled in by Wise Ones or maybe found her own way in (but I don't think her a Dreamer). Nakomi just appearing, extra coals in the fire, food cooking quite fast and being exquisite, and finally Nakomi and all over her belongings disappearing without alarming Avi.

 

I don't believe that Nakomi is real. Since Avi was in TAR and the Wise Ones were questioning her on the Aiel's future and purpose before she left to visit Rhuidean, I think that Nakomi may be a projection of Avi's and the Aiel's Need. They Need something, but they don't know the questions to ask or the answers to seek. We have seen Need work before in TAR, in not necessarily in the form of a person. Nakomi didn't really say anything other than what Avi and the Wise One's have been contemplating. A need for a purpose after their toh is met.

 

I think the idea that if you just wish for something hard enough in TAR someone comes and explains things to you is a bit too convenient. When the wondergirls tried it they were lead to the bowl of winds, but no one came and explained things to them. Also like you yourself said Avi isn't a dreamer. She can't reach TAR unaided- unless she enters it physically- any more than the Average Joes who manage to touch it in their nightmares.

 

Nakomi is not Verin. It doesn't pass the muster test of...Why? Why would it be Verin?

 

Because a lot of things Sanderson does are about fan gratification. It really, genuinely, could be as simple as him knowing fans would love a Verin cameo.

 

That's a really weak argument. BS has done far too good a job with WOT so far, he wouldn't spoil his efforts with such a moronic cameo in such a crucial scene.

 

Nakomi is not Verin. It doesn't pass the muster test of...Why? Why would it be Verin? Also (and this goes along with why it wasn't a Forsaken) there was nothing malevolent about the meeting. Nothing. In every section that Verin had a substantial role, there was something slightly off - something that hinted at her being Black Ajah. It just wasn't there in this section.

 

Assuming Nakomi has any inkling of the path she's setting Aviendha on, this is plenty of evidence for why Verin would do it, at least for me:

 

"If we are distracted, it is because we look forward, toward those who will come." and "We all seek to change the future, Egwene. I think I might just have a chance at doing so"

 

 

Her being "slightly off" was as much for us as readers as it was for the characters. The Nakomi scene was after we knew Verin's story. There was no need to make her "off" anymore, it was done and solved. Besides, it was off enough that she was there at all.

 

MountaineerWV's argument still holds though. Why would Verin take such a big interest in the future of the Aiel? How would she know that Aviendha is the key to the Aiel future? How would she even stage that meeting? If she Travelled there she would have to know where Aviendha was and if she was in TAR she would have to have another ter'angreal which we don't know about and she would have to have knowledge of TAR on the same level as the WO since the Aes Sedai as a whole have no idea how to find the dreams of someone or how to drag him or her into TAR. Where would she get either?

Basically the sole argument for Verin is that she "rambles" and that is hardly unique trait.

 

Wow, you're right, it never even occurred to me that fionwe wasn't talking about Dumai's Wells, but obviously I was wrong.

 

As to Aviendha and TAR, she was there enough times, on meetings. She was even spying on Rand's dreams with the WO (though she hasn't enough Talent to do that without their aid), which makes it more likely that they've shown her a little of TAR as well.

 

Actually she wasn't spying on Rand's dreams. Melaine, Bair and Amys were the ones who did that. Aviendha was sent to stay in Rand's sleeping chamber so she could get it on with Rand. And I also don't think the WO ever pulled her into TAR by force. As I recall they regarded that as something evil.

Edited by b3arz3rg3r

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Actually she wasn't spying on Rand's dreams. Melaine, Bair and Amys were the ones who did that. Aviendha was sent to stay in Rand's sleeping chamber so she could get it on with Rand. And I also don't think the WO ever pulled her into TAR by force. As I recall they regarded that as something evil.

Upon reflection, you might be right. I just took the following to mean she was looking in on his dreams as well, but perhaps she meant tel'aran'rhiod.

"The Wise Ones are taking turns watching over you from outside. They meant to continue watching from..." She trailed off, her face reddening.

"From where?" She only stared at him, her face growing more and more crimson. "Aviendha, from wh-?" Dreamwalkers. Why had it never occurred to him? "From inside my dreams," he said harshly. "How long have they been spying inside my head?"

She let out a long, heavy breath. "I was not supposed to let you know. If Bair finds out-Seana said it was too dangerous tonight. I do not understand it: I cannot enter the dream without one of them to help me. Something dangerous tonight is all I know. That is why they are taking turns at the door to this roof. They are all worried."

Either way, I didn't say they pulled her into TAR, only that they've probably trained her there to a degree, and since then she's been going there by use of ter'angreal more than once or twice, hence she ought to recognize TAR in itself.

 

To Barid, I'd say those ter'angreal don't necessarily use TAR, but instead create something similar. Even if they do, forgetfulness is part of their function, so it's not surprising their users are usually unaware.

Edited by yoniy0

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Verin does seem to be a real possibility. As to why? Verin was always stirring the pot, getting those she spoke to to question their own perceptions. Of all the AS [light or dark] she was THE one with the most far reaching plans. There just doesn't seem to be any short game for Verin.

The whole conversation between V and Av was a challenge of perceptions and preconceptions. The shadow does not act so subtley. Every challenge was couched as a question. Only if you have total control of your audiences' thought processes do you let them "figure it out for themselves" if you need a specific outcome. If you want to generate the unexpected, you ask open ended questions and do not provide answers.

This does not feel like the shadow at work. This is very Verin like interms of shaking things up. The Wise Ones have always done things a certain way. Though some things have changed, the Aiel will need to redefine themselves after the war or become, not only anachronistic, but irrelevant.

 

One last thought. The Jenn Aiel vanished shortly (within a couple hundred years) of the breaking leaving no trace but Ruidean. Could Nakomi be a remnant of the Jenn Aiel?

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Maybe not IN T'AR but OF T'AR.

How did Egwene get from the waste to Salidar so quickly? By Entering T'AR in the flesh and returning.

Maybe a "wolfdream" Jenn... just pure speculation and wag....

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One last thought. The Jenn Aiel vanished shortly (within a couple hundred years) of the breaking leaving no trace but Ruidean. Could Nakomi be a remnant of the Jenn Aiel?

 

I can think of two possibilities.

Either there was say a stasis box in Rhuidean and Nakomi is a Jenn who was put into it because of a foretelling which told them that they needed to ensure the Aiel's future after TG by nudging Aviendha in a certain direction.

Or some of the last Jenn joined the other Aiel because of a foretelling and kept that secret within their family for over 2000 years passed down only from mother to daughter or some such. Since the Aiel are natural born fanatics who do everything over the top they might actually keep such a secret for 2000 years.

 

Maybe not IN T'AR but OF T'AR.

How did Egwene get from the waste to Salidar so quickly? By Entering T'AR in the flesh and returning.

Maybe a "wolfdream" Jenn... just pure speculation and wag....

 

She travelled from Cairhien not from the Waste. Also I think only men can be wolfbrothers. They are the equivalent to the apparently only female dreamers.

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